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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates

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(Redirected from Wikipedia:FAC)

For the criteria to become a featured article, see Wikipedia:Featured article criteria.
For the similar process page for good articles, see Wikipedia:Good article nominations.
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This star, with one point broken, indicates that an article is a candidate on this page.
This star, with one point broken, indicates that an article is a candidate on this page.

Here, we determine which articles are to be featured articles (FAs). FAs exemplify Wikipedia's very best work and satisfy the FA criteria. All editors are welcome to review nominations; please see the review FAQ.

Before nominating an article, nominators may wish to receive feedback by listing it at Peer review and adding the review to the FAC peer review sidebar. Editors considering their first nomination, and any subsequent nomination before their first FA promotion, are strongly advised to seek the involvement of a mentor, to assist in the preparation and processing of the nomination. Nominators must be sufficiently familiar with the subject matter and sources to deal with objections during the featured article candidates (FAC) process. Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article before nominating it. Nominators are expected to respond positively to constructive criticism and to make efforts to address objections promptly. An article should not be on Featured article candidates and Peer review or Good article nominations at the same time.

The FAC coordinators—Ian Rose, Gog the Mild, David Fuchs and FrB.TG—determine the timing of the process for each nomination. For a nomination to be promoted to FA status, consensus must be reached that it meets the criteria. Consensus is built among reviewers and nominators; the coordinators determine whether there is consensus. A nomination will be removed from the list and archived if, in the judgment of the coordinators:

  • actionable objections have not been resolved;
  • consensus for promotion has not been reached;
  • insufficient information has been provided by reviewers to judge whether the criteria have been met; or
  • a nomination is unprepared.

It is assumed that all nominations have good qualities; this is why the main thrust of the process is to generate and resolve critical comments in relation to the criteria, and why such resolution is given considerably more weight than declarations of support.

Do not use graphics or complex templates on FAC nomination pages. Graphics such as  Done and  Not done slow down the page load time, and complex templates can lead to errors in the FAC archives. For technical reasons, templates that are acceptable are {{collapse top}} and {{collapse bottom}}, used to hide offtopic discussions, and templates such as {{green}} that apply colours to text and are used to highlight examples without altering fonts. Other templates such as {{done}}, {{not done}}, {{tq}}, {{tq2}}, and {{xt}}, may be removed.

An editor is normally allowed to be the sole nominator of one article at a time, but two nominations are allowed if the editor is a co-nominator on at least one of them. An editor may ask the approval of the coordinators to add a second sole nomination after the first has gained significant support. If a nomination is archived, the nominator(s) should take adequate time to work on resolving issues before re-nominating. None of the nominators may nominate or co-nominate any article for two weeks unless given leave to do so by a coordinator; if such an article is nominated without asking for leave, a coordinator will decide whether to remove it. A coordinator may exempt from this restriction an archived nomination that attracted no (or minimal) feedback.

Nominations in urgent need of review are listed here. To contact the FAC coordinators, please leave a message on the FAC talk page, or use the {{@FAC}} notification template elsewhere.

A bot will update the article talk page after the article is promoted or the nomination archived; the delay in bot processing can range from minutes to several days, and the {{FAC}} template should remain on the talk page until the bot updates {{Article history}}.

Table of Contents – This page: Purge cache

Shortcut

Featured content:

Featured article candidates (FAC):

Featured article review (FAR):

Today's featured article (TFA):

Featured article tools:

Nominating

[edit]

Commenting, etc

[edit]


FACs needing feedback
view • edit



Articles seeking peer review
before featured article candidacy
Shortcut

Nominations

[edit]

Theo Faiss

[edit]
Nominator(s): Usernameunique (talk) 20:52, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Theo Faiss, as regulars of FAC may recall, was a seven-year-old boy who died in curious circumstances in 1914, and in whose death Anthroposophical Society leader Rudolf Steiner found spiritual significance. Usernameunique (talk) 20:52, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This article was split off from In Memory of Theo Faiss, about the relief by Edith Maryon; that article recently appeared here, and, with thanks to MSincccc, Crystal Drawers, BorgQueen, RoySmith, and Metalicat, was promoted today. This one was promoted to good-article status last month by RandFreeman, and is ready for here. --Usernameunique (talk) 20:52, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

RoySmith

[edit]

I've been beaten up at other FACs for raising similar objections, but I still feel compelled to ask: is there really enough here to justify two distinct articles, i.e. Theo Faiss and In Memory of Theo Faiss? There's entire paragraphs that are copy-pasted from one article to the other. The entire Fire sections of both appear to be identical. Likewise for the Significance sections. If I ask Earwig to compare the two articles] it comes up with a 94.6% score. I'm not complaining about the WP:COPYWITHIN from a copyright aspect, but more from a WP:PAGEDECIDE point of view. The main body (i.e. exclusive of the lead) of Theo Faiss is 1400 words. The bits and pieces that are word-for-word identical between the two add up to (as reported by https://wordcounter.net/), just over 600 words, or almost half the text. Much of the rest covers the same basic material in different wording. Two of the three images are taken from the other article.

I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing how this makes sense.

RoySmith, primarily because, when In Memory of Theo Faiss was up at GAN, two separate reviewers said that splitting out the part on Faiss was necessary for the article to pass the review:
1: I'm interested in reviewing this for GA, but the background section makes up 2/3 of the article. That is far, far too long. This is an article about the relief/s, not Faiss, it would fail the 3b, "stays focused on the topic".
2 The full biographies of Maryon and Faiss would be appropriate in a short scholarly article or in a thesis about Maryon's work to make it self-contained (and to present additional background research into these people), but they do not seem relevant enough to take up so much space here. ... I think there is some re-working necessary to turn this piece into something that is clearly an article on the artwork, not about what Steiner thought about the death of this young boy.
Can reasonable minds disagree? Sure. Did I initially take the opposite approach? Sure. But don't shoot me for following orders. --Usernameunique (talk) 02:11, 27 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

1872 FA Cup final

[edit]
Nominator(s): ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:20, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Recently several billion people watched the World Cup final amid a blaze of worldwide publicity and hoopla. The first ever "final" in association football took place in far humbler circumstances 154 years ago, when a bunch of toffs and army officers played the final of a tournament which most eligible clubs didn't even enter and the winners of which didn't receive the trophy until a month later. Feedback on this article will be most gratefully received and swiftly acted upon -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:20, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Don't use fixed px size

Comments from Bgsu98

[edit]

I will review this for you tomorrow! Bgsu98 (Talk) 00:44, 27 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Newaukum Creek

[edit]
Nominator(s): Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 04:12, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Another article about a small stream in the Pacific Northwest. This one flows through a fairly rural area near Enumclaw, southeast of Seattle, and provides a spawning habitat for various salmonids. Although it has suffered some pollution and modifications, both local and federal restoration efforts have been taken in the past twenty years. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 04:12, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Images are appropriately licensed. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:03, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Ogbebo

[edit]
Nominator(s): Vanderwaalforces (talk) 09:21, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Ogbebo, who was the thirty-second Oba ('king') of the Kingdom of Benin and briefly ruled during a succession dispute around 1816. He was a son of Oba Obanosa and contested the throne against his brother Eredia-Uwa, later Oba Osemwede. Ogbebo initially drove Eredia-Uwa into exile in Ishan. After ruling for approximately eight months, Ogbebo was defeated by Eredia-Uwa's supporters. As if it stopped there, there are traditions mentioning unfortunately that he destroyed palace treasures, burned part of the royal palace, then died committed suicide by hanging.

While the article is pretty straight-to-the point and makes good use of the available details from sources, you may consider it short or even not. But I believe the WP:FACRIT is met, basically. Happy to hear your thoughts and collaborate with you in making the article even better. Many thanks to A.Cython for the GA review and spot-checks, looking forward to another look here again :) Vanderwaalforces (talk) 09:21, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

MSincccc

[edit]

Scharnhorst-class cruiser

[edit]
Nominator(s): Parsecboy (talk) 10:15, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This article covers the last pair of "standard" armored cruisers built by Germany before World War I (the last one, Blucher, being something of a halfway step to the battlecruiser). It also happens to be the last article in the associated Featured Topic to arrive at FAC, which means that should this nomination be successful, the topic will receive this fun little icon! In any event, I created this article nearly 19 years ago, and in the intervening couple of decades, it's gone through several major updates and GA and A-class review (the latter more recently in April 2026). Thanks for all who take the time to review the article! Parsecboy (talk) 10:15, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

RoySmith

[edit]

I'm not going to do a full review, but I will restate a general objection I've made elsewhere about article overlap. The Design sections of SMS Gneisenau and SMS Scharnhorst are identical copies of each other, modulo the ship names. These in turn just repeat almost verbatim what is in this article. Some overlap is to be expected, but my general impression is these sets of articles about ship classes have an excessive amount of duplication.

That being said, I was intrigued to learn that Gneisenau used smaller propellers than Scharnhorst but frustrated that there's no explanation of why this is so.

Also, The vessels' electrical plant consisted of four turbo-generators that delivered 260 kilowatts at 110 volts. Was that 260 kw each, or in aggregate? AC or DC? And if AC, what frequency? How many phases?

The cross-article duplication is not limited to the design material. The two individual ship articles have extensive sections on the the Battle of Coronel and the Battle of the Falkland Islands, both of which are also covered here in the class article, not to mention having their own Battle of Coronel and Battle of the Falkland Islands articles. Forgive me for being abrupt here, but we should not just be recycling the same material over and over and bringing it to FAC again under a different title to earn another bronze star. RoySmith (talk) 12:27, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

It seems you need a refresher on WP:SUMMARYSTYLE. The class article covers, primarily, technical details and design history, with a summary of the ships' operational histories. The ship articles are the reverse. If you object to the concept of SUMMARYSTYLE, the proper venue is that page, not an individual FAC. Comments like these are entirely disruptive and tendentious, and ought to be ignored.
As for your two substantive comments, the source doesn't say why smaller screws were used for Gneisenau, nor what type of current was used. Parsecboy (talk) 12:44, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Some images are missing alt text
    • Added alt text to those missing
  • File:SMS_Scharnhorst_by_Arthur_Renard.jpg: when and where was this first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 05:02, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    • Renard was an active photographer in Germany at the time, and usually published his photos as postcards, various naval publications, and the like. It can be safely assumed that the US Navy acquired the photo commercially (something they commonly did), which means it would have been published sometime before the 7 May 1908 date they provide. Parsecboy (talk) 10:31, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Premise

[edit]
Nominator(s): Phlsph7 (talk) 08:02, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

A premise is a proposition offered to support a conclusion. Premises are assumptions or commitments that act as the starting points of logical reasoning by presenting considerations to justify or refute standpoints. This is a level 5 vital article with about 350.000 page views last year. I worked on it as part of the Core Contest. Thanks to Z. Patterson for the GA review and to BorgQueen and MisterCake for their peer reviews. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:02, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Metalicat

[edit]
  • Scope: a non-specialist pass on prose, structure and internal consistency, plus a limited check of the citation apparatus. This reads as a strong article.
  • "False premises offer no support": the definition section says false premises offer no support. Later on, the article explains that a valid argument can have false premises, because validity is about what would follow if the premises were true. The two passages seem to use "support" in different ways. Could the earlier sentence say which sense it means?
    I assume that you are talking about the subsection "Deductive reasoning". I added a footnote there to explain that validity alone does not offer support. Phlsph7 (talk) 10:27, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Something similar happens in "Premise adequacy and relevance": Their aim is usually to preserve truth or transfer justification from accepted statements to the claim being argued for. Preserving truth is normally something an inference does, rather than something the premises aim at. The lead carries the same wording, so both may want a look.
    Good point. I think the original formulation a while back was "The aim", referring to the whole process rather than the premises in particular. I changed it back. Phlsph7 (talk) 10:27, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Euclid: the body and the caption both say Euclid showed how five fundamental premises can serve as the basis of Euclidean geometry. Book I of the Elements actually starts with twenty-three definitions, five postulates and five common notions, and the common notions count as axioms too. Do Priest, Novaes and Rosenberg mean the five postulates in particular? If they do, would calling them the postulates match the sources better?
    Rosenberg 2011 calls them "postulates or axioms". I changed the text to reflect this terminology. Phlsph7 (talk) 10:27, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Captions that repeat the text: two captions say the same thing as the sentence beside them. In "In various fields", the caption is the body sentence with "For example" taken off: Euclid showed how five fundamental premises can serve as the basis of Euclidean geometry. In "Others", the caption Aristotle developed syllogistic logic and distinguished between major and minor premises sits right above Syllogistic logic, first formulated by Aristotle, distinguishes between major and minor premises. Reading the same sentence twice running is a little odd. Could those captions say something the body does not?
    I reformulated them to avoid the repetition without presenting entirely new information not found in the body. Phlsph7 (talk) 10:27, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Others" heading: this subsection covers axioms, intermediate premises, affirmative and negative premises, universal and existential propositions, simple and compound premises, descriptive and normative premises, and major and minor premises. That is a lot for one heading called "Others". Could it get a more descriptive name, or be split in two?
    I made an extra subsection for axioms and intermediate premises. Generally speaking, they are grouped together because these categories do not get as much attention as the others and because the explanations are relatively short. Phlsph7 (talk) 10:27, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lead links: the lead says Premises are true or false statements, with "true" linked to Truth and "false statements" to false statement. The body instead talks about false premises, and says each premise has a truth value. Would statements with a truth value be more accurate, and match the body better?
    I think it could also work and would be more concise than the current formulation. However, truth value is a technical term, while the current formulation is more accessible, which matters more for the lead section than for explanation in the body. Phlsph7 (talk) 10:27, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Two source titles cut short: Magnus and Button is listed as forall x: Calgary: An Introduction to Formal, but the book's own title page reads "forall x: Calgary. An Introduction to Formal Logic". Sen is listed as An Introduction to Critical Thinking:, ending on a colon.
    Fixed. Phlsph7 (talk) 10:27, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Cook page: the bibliography entry for Cook pins page=227, but the work is cited at pp. 21, 227 and 251. The pinned page probably wants removing so the short footnotes carry the page each time.
    Removed. Phlsph7 (talk) 10:27, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Allen editors: the third editor field reads editor-last3=Galles with editor-first3=Eduardo Ortiz and Carlos Delfino, which looks like two editors run together.
    Changed. Phlsph7 (talk) 10:27, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

thats all I have. It's a good read. Metalicat (talk) 20:41, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Metalicat and thanks for all the helpful comments! Phlsph7 (talk) 10:27, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
No worries. It's all implemented, so happy to support a very well written article. Metalicat (talk) 12:56, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

SoHo Weekly News

[edit]
Nominator(s): RoySmith (talk) 03:02, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about an alternative weekly paper that existed in the late 1970s and early 1980s in New York. Offbeat and flakey but at the same time a serious force in NYC journalism with a major influence in the burgeoning punk rock scene. Ultimately a financial failure, SWN left a reputation and history far beyond what its circulation figures would suggest.

This is the second nomination. I believe I've addressed all the issues from the first nomination, the biggest of which was excessive use of quotations. Ping @Gatoclass, Rollinginhisgrave, MSincccc, and Gog the Mild: from the first nomination. Also thank you to @Vacant0, Aoba47, and Metalicat: for their helpful comments at peer review and to @BorgQueen and Generalissima: for additional post-PR comments. RoySmith (talk) 03:02, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Aoba47

[edit]

Thank you for the ping. I am putting this up as a placeholder. Please ping me as a reminder if I have not post a review by this time next week. I do not think that I will find anything beyond what I noticed during the peer review process, but I want to make sure that I read through everything thoroughly again so I can do my due diligence as a reviewer. Aoba47 (talk) 14:40, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Eddie

[edit]

I'll hope to take a look here sometime in the next few days as well. Do ping if it seems like I've forgotten. Eddie891 Talk Work 14:58, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

MSincccc

[edit]
  • Thanks for the ping.
Background
  • "positioned by him as a competitor to established alternative newsweekly" → "positioned as a competitor to the established alternative newsweekly"
  • "spun off from a Boston predecessor" → "spun off from a Boston-based predecessor"

A couple of suggestions to start with. Best, MSincccc (talk) 15:37, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Startup and operation
  • "Initially 8 pages, 'SWN' eventually expanded to more than 100." → "Initially eight pages, 'SWN'..."
  • ​"which set it apart from its other predecessors" → "which set it apart from its predecessors"
  • "22-to-35 years old" → "22- to 35-year-olds"
  • "had not shown itself to be as much competition" → "...as much of a competitor"

MSincccc (talk) 06:49, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Figure skating at the 2010 Winter Olympics – Ice dance

[edit]
Nominator(s): Bgsu98 (Talk) 21:29, 23 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

The ice dance competition at the 2010 Winter Olympics gained plenty of notoriety, and for all the wrong reasons. The choice of the Russian team to perform an Australian Aboriginal-inspired routine was fraught with controversy, all of it well-deserved. This was the first time that a team from outside Europe won the ice dance event at the Olympics. Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir of Canada went on to create one of the strongest legacies of excellence in ice dance; they are the only figure skaters to win five Olympic medals (three gold and two silver). Please let me know if you have any comments or suggestions, and I look forward to your constructive feedback. Bgsu98 (Talk) 21:29, 23 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Connection Lost

[edit]
Nominator(s): Pamzeis (talk) 05:11, 22 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

"Connection Lost" is an episode of the sitcom Modern Family, best known for being the first television episode to take place entirely on a computer screen. The format was viewed as more than just a gimmick, with reviewers remarking on how it was used to create an interesting story with many opportunities for laughs. Retrospectively, the episode has been deemed one of Modern Family's best. I began working on this article almost two years ago, and since its first failed FAC in 2025, it has gone through a few copy edits and a peer review. Pamzeis (talk) 05:11, 22 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Eddie891

[edit]

A bit out of my wheelhouse, but I do remember watching this episode (and enjoying it) years ago, so leaving some comments feels like a nice way to revisit things. Do ping me if I lose track and don't comment in a reasonable amount of time. Eddie891 Talk Work 15:04, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Bankers' Toadies incident

[edit]
Nominator(s): Z1720 (talk) 14:48, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a pamphlet produced by supporters of the Alberta government who called for the extermination of men who were considered aligned with the banker establishment. I asked for the previous nomination to be archived so I could devote enough time to address concerns: I think this article is now ready for promotion. Pinging those who participated in the last FAC review @MSincccc, Hog Farm, Mr Serjeant Buzfuz, UndercoverClassicist, and Caddyshack01:, of whom some also participated in the last FAC's subsequent PR. Thanks to everyone who reviews this. Z1720 (talk) 14:48, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

MSincccc

[edit]
Background
  • "proposed by British engineer C. H. Douglas" → "proposed by the British engineer C. H. Douglas"
  • "A meeting of the People's League called for the resignation of Aberhart and for the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation to stop airing Aberhart's Sunday radio show." → "A People's League meeting called for Aberhart's resignation and for the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation to stop airing his Sunday radio show."
Pamphlet
  • "a one-page pamphlet was left on the desks of every member..." → "a one-page pamphlet was left on the desks of all members..."
  • referred to a new group called 'bankers' toadies
    • Could we drop "new" here?
  • "4,000 or 7,000 copies" → "either 4,000 or 7,000 copies"
  • "...counselling to murder." → "...counselling murder."
Aftermath
  • "withdrew the Crown prosecutor assigned to it." → "...assigned to the case."
  • "...(the counselling to murder charge had been dropped)." → "...(the counselling murder charge had been dropped)."
  • "to help with the lawyer's fees." → "to help with his legal fees."
  • "He testified that he had ordered the pamphlets, which were government-funded, and then circulated them..." → "He testified that he had ordered the government-funded pamphlets and circulated them..."
    • Parallelism.
  • "leading to turmoil among society." → "leading to social turmoil."
  • "Appeals by both men against conviction and sentence were unsuccessful." → "Appeals by both men against their convictions and sentences were unsuccessful."
  • Rephrased slightly differently per below: "Both men appealed their conviction and sentence, and both were unsuccessful."
Legacy
  • "highlight the conspiratorial influence of financial institutions." → "highlight the alleged conspiratorial influence of financial institutions."
  • "protested the government instead." → "instead protested the government."
  • "They grew to believe that Douglas's strategy" → "Caucus members came to believe that Douglas’s strategy"
  • "separating the government and the board..." → "separating the government from the board so that..."
  • "was not necessary." → "was unnecessary."
  • "Within the Social Credit caucus at the Alberta legislature," → "...in the Alberta legislature,"
Lead
  • "Aberhart blamed the banking system for his failure to follow through on this pledge." → "...for failing to fulfil this pledge."
  • "raised concerns on the pamphlet's contents" → "...raised concerns about..."
  • "...counselling to murder." → "...counselling murder."
  • "Both were convicted of the libel charge," → "Both were convicted of libel,"
  • "and negatively affected his ability to pass his legislative agenda." → "and affected his ability to pass legislation."
Bottom line

Image review

[edit]
  • File:Joseph_Unwin_portrait.png: source link is dead; when and where was this first published?
  • Link has been updated. "When" has already been included (1935). No location is provided in the document, though it is credited as created by the Legislative Assembly of Alberta for their portraits of legislators, thus I think for copyright reasons it is safe to assume that this was originally published in Alberta, Canada. Z1720 (talk) 21:04, 23 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • So the image is part of a larger display, located here, whose entry states that it is a collection of the members . It states that it was created in 1935 and is "Members of the Legislative Assembly of Alberta, August 1935". This would be hung on the walls of the Alberta legislative assembly, which would indicate its publication at that time. Therefore it meets the three requirements of the copyright notice: first published outside the US, first published before 1964, and and in the public domain in Canada in 1996. Z1720 (talk) 19:45, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • This file doesn't have a publication date nor a location. However, it was created by the Northern Alberta Pioneers and Old Timers' Association, so I am willing to assume that it was first published in Alberta, Canada. Duggan died in 1942, so this photograph must have been taken before the January 1, 1949, stipulation in the copyright tag that would cause it to be public domain in Canada (and thus the US. Z1720 (talk) 21:04, 23 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Further information about this file: This file is not subject to Crown Corporation copyright, as the creator is unknown and was donated to the archives by the Northern Alberta Pioneers and Old Timers' Association, not a government organisation. The summary of the donation states that the items were donated between 1957-2010: the E-10 designation seems to indicate that it was part of the first batch of donations in 1957, indicating a publication date before then. It therefore fulfils the three requirements of the US copyright notice: first published outside of the US, published before 1964, and public domain in Canada in 1996. Z1720 (talk) 19:45, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • I did not realise that Ives was also listed, so here's information about it: the source link dates the photograph to the 1930s, so we will assume 1939. The creator is unknown but donated from the A.E. Cox family fonds as family photographs. Therefore, I think this meets the three requirements: it was first published outside the US, before 1964, and in the public domain before 1996.

@Nikkimaria: Do these responses satisfy your concerns? Z1720 (talk) 21:04, 23 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately no - US status depends on publication, not solely on status in Canada. What are the first known publications? Nikkimaria (talk) 23:27, 23 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

UC

[edit]

In this article's last FAC, I made a number of comments about prose quality and clarity, several of which had not yet received a response when the nomination was closed. Could you give a brief account of the changes that have been made in this respect since then? UndercoverClassicist T·C 11:55, 22 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@UndercoverClassicist: Here's an overview of the changes made after your last set of comments if I did not respond to them in the FAC:
  • Extermination has been left in the lead, due to MOS:SCAREQUOTES concerns for including them, although after some thought I would be willing to add the quotes.
  • phrasing changed to "or the trial judge of the two cases, William Carlos Ives,"
  • phrasing changed to "Both men appealed their conviction and sentence, and both were unsuccessful."
  • Fort Saskatchewan Penitentiary dup link removed
  • Additional information about the legislature's resolution was not added: secondary sources did not deem it important enough to include in their text, so I think it is too much detail to include information like who proposed it and what the final count was.
  • Inflation numbers were rounded.
  • "social credit leader" changed to "a leader of the British social credit movement"
  • "police magistrate Gibson" it would be too much detail to include a description of what this job is in this article, so no further information is included.
  • "The incident was part of a series of events..." This sentence has been split.
  • "These include the 1937 Social Credit backbenchers' revolt and the creation of the Social Credit Board..." these were removed.
  • "The incident, along with the subsequent lawsuits and convictions, demonstrated that the laws in Alberta..." I cut down this section quite a bit and credited the information about the law not being necessary in the article.
  • I rephrased to "plans to implement tenets of the social credit economic system were postponed."
  • All sources published before 2007 now have 10-digit ISBN, and those after have 13
  • I have not found mention of the radio drama in sources, but I will keep looking when the link is fixed (so I can get publication information about it).
Let me know if I missed anything. Z1720 (talk) 20:02, 23 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks -- I can't promise I'll have time for a full review, but I'll try to drop by if I get the chance. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:29, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Hilda Dajč

[edit]
Nominator(s): Aeengath (talk) 14:23, 20 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Hilda Dajč, a young jewish woman who volunteered as a nurse at the Sajmište concentration camp near Belgrade and smuggled out letters describing conditions there before she was murdered with the rest of the detainees. Her letters are one of the only surviving documents written by a prisoner of the camp and one of the few first person accounts of the Holocaust in German-occupied Serbia to survive at all.

I've expanded this from a GA to what I believe is FA standard, using historical scholarship (Manoschek, Matthäus, Browning, Subotić, Byford, Saiger, Daković, Giergiel, Krug) Several sources are in German or Serbian; I can provide quotes on request for spot-checking. Thank you. Aeengath (talk) 14:23, 20 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Jaguarnik

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I like this article. I've checked this against the WP:FACR and I don't see any major issues with the prose (although I do admit I don't have much experience with FAC and other reviewers may have a more discerning eye). The prose is well-written, broad, well-researched; I didn't feel as if I had any questions left to ask. Earwig doesn't flag any copyright violations. I don't see any grammatical errors. It has a lead that covers all sections of the article and appropriate structure. The length of the article is acceptable per WP:SIZERULE; sadly it is a bit short, but that's to be expected when the subject's life was cut so short. Only a few comments:

  • Remove "often" from often called a Serbian Anne Frank in the lead, as the body says that she is sometimes/occasionally compared to Frank.
  • During the winter of 1941–42, an average of around one hundred prisoners at Sajmište died each day from exposure. I'm guessing that this is exposure to the cold, but from the description of conditions, it sounds like it could be exposure to illnesses because of the poor conditions, so there is some ambiguity.
  • Not necessary, but a translation of the memorial plaque to Hilda would not hurt (at least as an alt caption).
  • Why does citation 65 use a sfn ref with the label of Jerusalem Post when the author's (Radojković) name is known? Wouldn't it be simpler for it to link to Radojković?

Jaguarnik (talk) 14:09, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the close read @Jaguarnik!
  • Changed "often" to "sometimes" in the lead.
  • I've left "exposure" since it's Subotić's exact word (p. 52) she writes "During the harsh winter of 1941–42, an average of one hundred Semlin inmates died daily from exposure." She treats exposure as distinct from disease and starvation elsewhere in the same book too (p. 3: "more than ten thousand died in the camp from disease, starvation, exposure, physical exhaustion, and savage guard beatings" and p. 153: "Many died in Siberian camps from exposure, disease or exhaustion"), so it does specifically mean death from the cold rather than illness. Hopefully that resolves the ambiguity.
  • Added a translation of the plaque to the caption.
  • Fixed citation 65, it now points to the author {{sfn|Radojković|2018}}.
Aeengath (talk) 21:08, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
All my comments are resolved; I'm happy to voice my support for this FAC. Jaguarnik (talk) 21:39, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

ThaesOfereode

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Good to see more Balkan topics come to FAC, despite how depressing this one is. I speak passable Croatian so I'll probably end up doing a source review for Serbian-language sources as well. I think there are German speakers who haunt FAC, but few if any BCMS speakers. More to come, but to begin:

  • Our subject is referred to by her Serbian name here. You should include the Serbian Cyrillic (Хилда Дајч) and the Serbian pronunciation (Serbian pronunciation: [xîlda dâjt͡ʃ]; you can easily cite to the HJP here). To avoid bloat, your footnote already captures the "Deutch" spelling so you can remove that from the lede.
  • On the topic, do sources really spell it "Deutch" instead of "Deutsch"? They also, in article, should be Soft suggestion to include the German pronunciation.
  • That first sentence is... long. You should consider splitting it (maybe Jewish prisoners held there and represent one of the few → Jewish prisoners held there. They represent one of the few).
  • "Stolpersteine" should be in a {{lang}} template
  • Might be worth mentioning what the award honors since it's not immediately obvious.
  • All of the family were executed in 1942, so why is her brother's death date the only one noted in that first section?

Overall, the article looks good but there are substantive MOS issues that should be resolved. I'll work on this over the coming week. ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:37, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the review @ThaesOfereode, really glad to have an editor who can check the Serbian-language sources too!
  • Added the Serbian Cyrillic (Хилда Дајч) to the lead.
I'd rather keep "Hilda Deitch" bolded in the lead since it's a legitimate alternate name in my sources and the title of the graphic novel about her. Jerusalem Post
HJP does have "Dajč" listed but as a list of German-derived surnames, marked as used in two Croatian towns with a different accent than the one you proposed. So I'm not sure it can be used, it's also Croatian data not Serbian. That said, I think you're right that a pronunciation should be in the lead.
Correction to my comment above, I misread the accent notation. Your proposed [xîlda dâjt͡ʃ] uses circumflex without a length mark which per Help:IPA/Serbo-Croatian is short falling, matching what HJP actually shows for "Dajč". Not in conflict after all I compared two different diacritic systems by mistake. Adding the pronunciation to the lead now, cited to HJP.
  • "Deutch" isn't a spelling that appears in any sources as far as I know, the variation is between "Deitch" (Saiger, Daković) and "Deutsch" (Shelach). The footnote now cites both properly, attributed to the sources that use each one.
I don't think the lead needs German pronunciation too, her story is almost entirely Serbian, Vienna is just her birthplace.
  • Split the first lead sentence as suggested.
  • Added lang template to "Stolpersteine"
  • Added the award's two categories (youth award, outstanding contribution to remembrance culture) per sources.
  • Added death years for Augusta and Emil alongside Hans as suggested, per sources. Aeengath (talk) 15:36, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

History of education in Wales (1870–1939)

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Nominator(s): Llewee (talk) 22:50, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about what it says on the tin, an education system. That education system, like the nation it served, was both closely integrated with England and peculiar to itself. The article discusses politics and everyday life in the classroom. The sometimes awkward place of education in a society with two languages and two nationalities. How the system was both embraced and rejected by the people it was suppose to benefit and influenced social change. I hope that didn't sound too pretentious and that it's interesting to read.

This is my second nomination of this article. I have attempted to address the issues that came up in the first nomination, particularly dry prose and awkward grammar. Llewee (talk) 22:50, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Metalicat

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  • Scope: I have done a non-specialist prose, structure and internal-consistency pass, concentrating on reader-facing issues. I have also checked the article against the MoS and read the first nomination to avoid repeating points already covered. I made a small number of mechanical edits directly; comments only for now.
Things that look like leftover paste damage

These all read as text-handling accidents rather than judgement calls, so I have put them first. I have not touched them because each needs you to decide what was meant.

  • Under "University colleges", a sentence has lost its subject: Some older men also enrolled, many of them farmers studying agriculture. were initially excluded, although support for their admission soon emerged. I assume this should begin Women were initially excluded ..., given the sentences that follow.
  • Under "Attendance, teaching and discipline", this appears twice in succession, with the same footnote attached both times: Roald Dahl recalled that, in the 1920s, a headmaster in Cardiff told his mother that corporal punishment was fundamental to British education.[note] Court cases occasionally arose over disciplinary practices in schools.[note] Both sentences cite Dahl p. 47, and the note about parents complaining is reproduced word for word. Is the "court cases" sentence meant to be there at all, and if so is Dahl's memoir the source for it?
  • Under "Growing acceptance of Welsh", the 1971 Leicester Daily Mercury letter is cited three separate times, as three full duplicate <ref> definitions rather than a named ref, and the sentence about anecdotal accounts of children being hit in the 1950s appears in two different footnotes. The main-text sentence There is anecdotal evidence that pupils were physically punished for speaking Welsh as late as the mid-20th century then largely repeats what the preceding footnote already says.
  • Maude Morgan Thomas is introduced in full twice, in the "Historical context" footnote and again under "After the Revised Code", each time with the same US census citation duplicated in full rather than named. She is also referred to as "Morgan Thomas" under "Private, charitable and specialist schools", which sits between the two introductions. Worth keeping one full introduction, at the earliest mention, and naming the census ref.
Citations and bibliography
  • Evans 2003 is defined in the bibliography as a book chapter occupying pp. 343–369, but two citations point to p. 105 (the exclusion of women from Aberystwyth, and the Grimley quotation in the attached note). Should those be Evans 1990, which is the book on female emancipation and would fit the subject?
  • The bibliography gives Stephens, T. B. but the body calls him W. B. Stephens, a historian of British education. One of the two is wrong.
  • Evans 2003 gives {{{1}}}, which repeats the author's surname; the chapter URL points to an item credited to Geraint H. Jenkins and Mari A. Williams, and Smith 2000 in the same series is credited to Jenkins. Could you check the editor field, and the spelling of "Geriant"?
  • Two consecutive sentences in "Historians and cultural memory" cite different authors at the identical page: Johnes 2024 p. 360, then Smith 1999 p. 360. Given Smith 1999 covers 1870 to 1902 and the sentence is about the interwar period, could that anchor have been copied from the neighbouring one?
  • Grigg and Roderick argue that the comparatively limited success of evening classes in Wales ... is cited to Jones and Roderick 2003. Should the attribution be Jones rather than Grigg?
  • <ref name=":1"> is invoked twice in the prose before it is defined, and the definition itself lives inside a footnote. It renders, but if that footnote is ever trimmed the two earlier citations break. Worth defining it at first use.
  • The archive URL on that same reference ends in a long __cf_chl_rt_tk string, which suggests the snapshot captured a Cloudflare challenge page rather than the Parliament page. Could you check what the archived copy actually shows?
  • I have removed the URL from the Dahl entry: it pointed to a full PDF of Boy (1984) in an unattributed Internet Archive item, which looks like a WP:COPYLINK problem. The controlled-lending links elsewhere in the bibliography are fine.
  • Standard Seven was introduced in 1882, though some schools did not adopt it cites Johnes at loc=Abbreviations. Does the book's abbreviations list really carry that, or has the anchor drifted from a page in the text?
  • The sentence before it, Pupils were initially known as infants before progressing through six standards; they often began Standard One at the age of seven, although advancement depended on academic attainment rather than age, carries no citation at all.
  • These sentences are sourced to a paragraph on the page after the abbreviations without a heading. As they appear to have a page number, I have changed the citation to that.--Llewee (talk) 15:51, 23 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Jenkins 2016 is cited as a website but is a Cardiff University thesis; {{Cite thesis}} would fit it better. Also, the PDF filename reads "2017jenkinsb", against a 2016 date.
  • Are the Keane et al. author surnames right? "Egen" and "Morgen" both look like they might be Egan and Morgan. Every sfn uses the same spelling so nothing is broken, but the bibliography entry would be wrong if so.
The lead and the prose

Prose was what stopped this last time, so I have tried to be concrete rather than just agreeing that it reads dryly. Two habits seem to me to account for most of the flatness in the lead:

  • Abstract nouns doing work that verbs would do better. In two sentences we get the expansion of compulsory and publicly funded education, the creation of a national administrative framework for schools, and the growth of opportunities and then the rapid growth of primary education through the establishment of school boards, the expansion of school provision and the gradual introduction of compulsory attendance. Nothing in either sentence has an actor. Something closer to School boards built new schools across Wales, attendance became compulsory, and fees were abolished in 1891 tells the reader the same thing but has people doing things in it.
  • Repetition of the same handful of words. "Expanded greatly", "the expansion of", "the growth of", "expanded significantly", "the rapid growth of" and "the expansion of school provision" all appear in the first two paragraphs. Likewise During this period is followed by The period was marked by, and Despite these developments by Nevertheless two sentences later.
I've tried to vary the vocabulary a bit more.--Llewee (talk) 22:21, 23 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Several sentences also close on a trailing clause that softens the point, for example attitudes towards the Welsh language became more favourable over time, with Welsh increasingly recognised as a useful medium of teaching and as a subject of study. Ending on the substantive clause instead usually reads more firmly.
  • Education was expanded greatly in Wales, a country that was part of the United Kingdom is a slightly awkward opening, partly because of the passive and partly because the appositive stops the sentence dead. Would something like Between the Elementary Education Act 1870 and the outbreak of the Second World War, schooling in Wales became compulsory, free and available to far more of the population work?
I think this would be a stronger sentence if you left out "a country that was part of the United Kingdom". The key point you're making is that education was improved in Wales. The secondary point is when this happened. The fact that Wales is part of the UK isn't essential to understanding the key point. At some point in the ariticle you'll certainly want to explain how Wales is related politically to the rest of island of which it's a part, but that doesn't need to be in the first sentence.
It's also a little weird that you say "between the Elementary Education Act 1870 and the outbreak of the Second World War". Grammatically, what you are trying to say is between <one point in time> and <another point in time>. "the outbreak of the Second World War" is a point in time, but "the Elementary Education Act of 1870" is not. You might say something like "the passage of the Elementary Education Act of 1870" RoySmith (talk) 23:19, 23 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
RoySmith, I have fixed the second point. I don't agree with the first point. The context that Wales was part of wider polity is necessary for understanding a lot of the article, including parts of the lead; the relationship between Welsh institutions and the wider British state and important institutions for promoting both Welsh and British national identities.--Llewee (talk) 09:47, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Structure
  • "Laws, politics and administration" (under Elementary school organisation) and "Politics, laws and administration" (under Secondary education) are near-identical headings and easy to confuse in the table of contents. Could one be qualified, for instance "Elementary schools: laws and administration"?
  • "Contemporary views" sits under "Legacy", but its content is opinion expressed during 1870 to 1939 rather than afterwards. Is it in the right place? "Historians and cultural memory" reads much more clearly as legacy.
  • Relatedly, "Historical context, 1870–1939" sits under "Background", although it covers the article's own period rather than what preceded it.
Links and consistency
  • the Castle Hotel in Aberystwyth was purchased links to Castle Hotel, Aberaeron. I have left this alone because I do not know what the right target is.
  • {{Interlanguage link|Edward David Rowlands|qid=Edward David Rowlands}} passes a name where the template expects a Q-number. {{Interlanguage link|Walter Haydn Davies|wikidata}} passes "wikidata" where a language code belongs. Both differ from the working examples elsewhere in the article.
  • Duplicate links within a single level-2 section: Roald Dahl and Llandaff Cathedral School (both twice in "Elementary school organisation"); Thomas Picton and the Union Flag (in "British and Welsh patriotism", the latter three times, once via the Union Jack redirect); Welsh Not (twice in "Elementary curriculum" and twice in "Legacy"); Daniel Parry-Jones (twice in "Legacy"); and "rates", which is both linked and glossed twice in the same subsection. I have moved the Owen Edwards link to his first mention but left the rest, since which one to keep is your call. The duplinks script IAWW recommended last time would catch any I have missed.
  • Numbers: mixed forms sit next to each other in 38 intermediate schools were single-sex, 36 educated boys and girls separately ... and six were fully coeducational, and "Around eighteen governesses" appears in the same subsection as "20 such schools".
  • Capitalisation drifts: "Welsh Department" and "Welsh department"; "chief inspector" and "Chief Inspector"; "Board schools" in Terminology against "board schools" thereafter. Also "the three Rs" in the lead and background against "the three R's" in a later footnote. I have not touched the last one, since you defended the apostrophe last time and I would rather you picked the form.
Questions I could not check
  • The body says around 16,500 pupils attended state-funded secondary schools in 1914, citing Evans 1990 pp. 166–167. The footnote attached a few lines later gives, from the same pages, 7,396 girls and 6,796 boys in intermediate schools plus 1,101, 1,227, 322 and 411 in municipal schools, which comes to about 17,250. Are these counting different things, and if so could the difference be made explicit?
  • The caption Illustration of the University College of Wales beside a parish church (1868) predates the college, which the article says opened in 1872 in a building bought in 1867. Is the date right, or is the illustration of the hotel? Nikkimaria's question in the first nomination about where that image was first published also appears not to have been answered, and will presumably come up again at the image review.
  • Johnes p. 185 is doing quite varied work: the 1928 John Hughes remark, corporal punishment continuing into the 20th century, and the 1971 census on Welsh literacy. That may be right, but it is the kind of cluster a spot check tends to land on.
  • In the bilingual rhyme footnote, sow is which looks as though a Welsh word has been mangled. Could you check that against the book?
  • Is the University of Ireland in the higher education section the Queen's University of Ireland, or the Royal University?

The thematic structure works well for a topic that could easily have become a chronology. Happy to look again once these have been worked through. Metalicat (talk) 22:16, 20 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

RoySmith

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Sadly, I'm going to have to echo the problems found in the first FAC about the prose. Whonting wrote in archive1 that "the sentences ... don't flow ... it feels we are simply reciting facts" and that's exactly what I was going to write. Take the first paragraph of Background:

The British and Foreign School Society (which was Nonconformist) and the National Society for Promoting Religious Education (which was Anglican) were established in the early 19th century. They founded day elementary schools, known as voluntary schools.[1] The curriculum focused on the three Rs (reading, writing and arithmetic).[2] From 1833, the two societies began to receive government funding,[3] after which the proportion of pupils attending private day schools declined.[4] The Revised Code, under which grants were based on pupils' knowledge of the three Rs and school attendance, was introduced in 1862.[5]

The first sentence is fine. The next two sentences are just dropped in, with no real connection to the first. The "From 1833 ... began to receive" construct is odd. Either "From" or "began" indicates when an ongoing action started to happen; you don't need both. An the last sentence about the Revised Code, is totally disconnected from what comes before. You talk about the Revised Code again in the next paragraph; it would make sense to move this sentence there. Leaving out the citions (you'll need to fix those up), this works better:

The British and Foreign School Society (which was Nonconformist) and the National Society for Promoting Religious Education (which was Anglican) were established in the early 19th century. Both of these founded day voluntary (elementary) schools with curricula focused on the three Rs (reading, writing and arithmetic). The societies began to receive government funding in 1833, which let to the proportion of pupils attending private day schools declining.

As an example of some better phrasing, I like the first sentence of the next paragraph:

Teaching English was widely regarded as the principal purpose of working-class schooling, and Welsh was often excluded entirely from day schools.[6] This proved to be an ineffective method of teaching English.[7] The British government never prohibited the use of Welsh in schools,[8] but the Revised Code did not recognise Welsh as a grant-earning subject.[9]

This could have been written more poorly as:

Teaching English was widely regarded as the principal purpose of working-class schooling. Welsh was often excluded entirely from day schools.[6] This proved to be an ineffective method of teaching English.[7] The British government never prohibited the use of Welsh in schools,[8] but the Revised Code did not recognise Welsh as a grant-earning subject.[9]

By tieing the first two sentences together with the conjunction "and", you imply that there's a cause and effect relationship. You're not just stating the second fact, that Welsh was excluded, but telling the reader the reason it was excluded. This is what Whonting was talking about as "flow", so good marks there. On the other hand, the next sentence ("This proved to be an ineffective method of teaching English") could be improved by emphasizing the contrast with what came before. Instead of "This proved to be", you could start with something like "However", or "Unfortunately", both of which alert the reader that you're moving on to a different idea. That what I did when I wrote "on the other hand" a little while ago (which is fine for a review, but I suspect would be picked on for being too informal in an article).

Looking a few paragraphs down, I see "In 1870, there were no legal or administrative distinctions between England and Wales,[29] whereas Scotland and Ireland had separate education systems.[34]" That's a perfect example: "whereas" tells the reader, "I'm done with that idea, here's a different idea that contrasts with it"

I haven't read the whole article yet, so I'll refrain from offering any specific support/oppose opinion, but that's my initial impression. RoySmith (talk) 16:12, 23 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Coming back the next day for another look, I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to call this a firm oppose from me based on the quality of the prose. I still have not read the entire article from beginning to end, but I've sampled enough to see that the problems I talked about above are not just a few unfortunate examples, but are representitive of the writing as a whole.
WP:FACR 1a requires the writing to be "engaging and of a professional standard". I interpret "professional standard" to be talking about technical aspects such as grammar, spelling, punctuation, and diction. There's no problem there. But it falls short of the "engaging" requirement: it's just not pleasant to read. There's no continuous flow of thoughts through paragraphs. Sentences should build on each other in some logical progression, expanding on what came before. What we have here is mostly sequences of disconnected facts with no real connection to what came before. The extent of the problem is such that I don't think it will be practical to fix here at FAC. RoySmith (talk) 13:16, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Bgsu98 (7/25/26)

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  • I began a review of this article during its previous FAC here. I made it through Private, charitable and specialist schools before I gave up in frustration. The previous FAC was also a thoroughly unpleasant experience. I will review the next section after Private, charitable and specialist schools to see if the quality of the prose has improved. Bgsu98 (Talk) 15:29, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't want to go into the issues that occurred during the first nomination again here but clearly its wrong to suggest I was the only person at fault.--Llewee (talk) 17:17, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Buangkok MRT station

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Nominator(s): ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 14:04, 13 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Hopefully, third time's the charm?

This article is about an MRT station in Singapore which got caught up in a small bit of political drama in Singapore. Even though the line opened in 2003, Buangkok station remained closed, and the line's operator offered plenty of justifications like projected low ridership and lack of developments at the time. However, a few disgruntled residents, who were taken aback by the sudden announcement to close the station, lobbied with grassroots leaders to have the station opened. That led to the "white elephant" incident – a rare form of public protest by putting up "white elephant" cardboard cutouts. The station eventually opened in 2006, and presently it's a rather bustling station with a new shopping mall.

The previous nominations expressed concerns on clarity and wording in certain portions of the article, especially explaining what a "grassroots leader" is (in the Singapore context, it's more like a volunteer appointed by a government body to liaise with the community). Much thanks to YuniToumei (talk · contribs) for giving an outsiders' perspective and pointing out ways to fix the article. Also pinging past reviewers 750h+, Gog the Mild, Chipmunkdavis, Vacant0, Premeditated Chaos, Mike Christie, Epicgenius. Noleander who have offered feedback before in past FAC nominations or peer review, but none are obliged to review. ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 14:04, 13 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

EG

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Thanks for the ping. I actually forgot to leave my comments last time, so here is a placeholder. I hope to complete this within a week (or at least before Wikimania). – Epicgenius (talk) 14:11, 13 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Lead (I touched on this in the PR):
  • Para 1: "located near the road intersection of Sengkang Central with Compassvale Bow." - I'd say "located near the road intersection of Sengkang Central and Compassvale Bow" because intersections are typically phrased as "the intersection of X and Y" if both streets X and Y are in the same clause. ("With" would be appropriate for something like "along Sengkang Central near the junction with Compassvale Bow", where the streets are mentioned in different clauses. You use this further down in the article.)
  • Para 2: "youth minister Vivian Balakrishnan" - Should "Youth Minister" be capitalised per MOS:JOBTITLES?
Construction:
  • Para 1: "proposed by the Government of Singapore in 1984" - Should "Government" be capitalised? In other parts of the world, this word is lowercase even when referring to a specific government.
  • Para 1: "communications minister Mah Bow Tan" - Should this be "Communications Minister Mah Bow Tan"?
  • Para 3: "the site was excavated to a depth of up to 20 m (66 ft), and work on the station proceeded" - I would say "depth of as much as 20 m..." because "up to" (in the figurative sense) doesn't really pair well with "depth".
Delay in opening:
  • Para 1: "Housing demand had declined due to the 1997 Asian financial crisis and the economic downturn following the September 11 attacks." - The 9/11 attacks occurred halfway across the globe, so I would clarify that this was a "global economic downturn".
  • Para 1: "operating costs by S$2-to-3 million" - Hyphenating makes it seem like this is an adjective phrase, which it isn't. How about "operating costs by S$2 million to S$3 million" or "operating costs by S$2 to 3 million"?
  • Para 2: "A poll of residents living within 700 m (2,300 ft) of the station showed that nearly 7 in 10 were willing to walk to the station" - How about "...nearly 7 in 10 were willing to walk there"? This would reduce repetition of "to the station".
  • Para 3: "transport minister Yeo Cheow Tong", "deputy prime minister Lee Hsien Loong" - Should these be capitalised?
  • Para 3: "saying it would open once the area has been developed" - This should be "...saying it would open once the area had been developed" as the rest of the sentence is past tense (even though Tong was saying that the opening would open in the future).
White elephant incident:
  • Para 1: " Chong attributed the renewed dissatisfaction among residents" - How about " Chong attributed residents' renewed dissatisfaction"?
  • Para 2: "Deputy Prime Minister Wong Kan Seng said the investigation was initiated because they could not selectively enforce legislation" - I feel like this should be placed before the sentence about the police closing the investigation.
Station opening:
  • Para 1: "...SBS Transit agreed to the expedited opening due to reduced losses from its rail operations." - So did they agree to the opening because the losses they had already incurred were less than expected? Or was it because the projected losses on this station were less than expected?
  • Incidentally, it does seem like the police overreacted to the shirt thing. Just my opinion anyway.
  • Para 3: "defence minister Teo Chee Hean" - Should this be capitalised?
  • Para 3: "SBS Transit, after saying it was still "too early to draw a conclusion" about ridership, remained committed to keeping the station open to serve future developments nearby" - Was there ever any consideration to closing the station?
  • Not really. That also has never happened in Singapore before, except for Ten Mile Junction LRT station.
  • Did ridership increase after the station opened? There doesn't seem to be much info about the station post-opening, but I would at least expect the ridership issue to have been addressed.
Details:
  • Para 1: "has the station code of NE15" - I would change to "with the station code NE15", or "which bears the station code NE15".
  • Para 1: "12:25 a.m" - This should be "12:25 a.m." (second period after a.m.)
  • Para 2: Link Teochew Min?
  • Para 2: "The station has two entrances" - Where exactly? Are they at opposite ends?
  • Para 2: "integrated commercial-and-residential development" - I would remove the hyphens as they are not necessary (this is not an adjective phrase).
  • Para 3: "rounded-or-elongated" - Same as above, the hyphens can be removed.
Artwork:
  • Para 1: "The artwork consists of two strips of images" - I'd say "It consists of two strips of images" as "the artwork" is mentioned at the beginning of the previous sentence
  • Para 1: "Through colourful embellishments ... through the use of primary colours" - Is it possible to reword the sentence to mention the primary colours earlier in the sentence?
  • Realised I have two "through..." clauses. Shifted the primary colours at the beginning
  • Para 2: "decided to experiment fusing art and photography" - I'd say "decided to experiment with fusing art and photography".
  • Para 2: "to reflect the lifestyle of old Buangkok and rural Singapore, and for commuters to connect the past with the future" - I suggest "to reflect the lifestyle of old Buangkok and rural Singapore, and to help commuters connect the past with the future.", because "to reflect...to help" are grammatically parallel.
  • Para 2: "The enlarged photographs resulted in an abstract appearance" - This would only be abstract if seen up close, right?
@ZKang123, that's all the prose comments from me. (This is a record for me, I don't think I've ever done a whole FAC review in one setting.) – Epicgenius (talk) 15:43, 14 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Epicgenius: addressed the above.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 08:32, 17 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good. I don't see anything else, so Support this FAC. – Epicgenius (talk) 14:10, 17 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

YuniToumei

[edit]

Hi! Continuing from my informal peer review. The prose is looking solid by now, I have a few notes on comprehensiveness after a deeper dive into literature:

  • Continuing my inquiry from the peer review about ridership in subsequent years and EG's question on it, I found Tan, 2 Nov 2009, p.6 , The Straits Times, which says "Ridership is now around 7,000 a day - fourfold its initial number", as well as Yong & Toh, 19 Nov 2010, The Straits Times, which says "At that time, LTA had explained that it had delayed the opening of the station because there were insufficient people living around it. That problem has evaporated. The area has developed quickly. The number of HDB blocks has increased from under 100 to 149 in just four years. Numerous amenities have been added near Buangkok MRT, which opened in 2006." Could you use these sources to expand on the ridership development after opening?
  • Buangkok appears in discussions around "mothballed" stations. It seems that in 2009, the Woodleigh and Buangkok delays prompted the government to promise that no MRT stations would be mothballed anymore in the future (Tan, 2 Nov 2009, p.1, The Straits Times), but then did so anyways in 2022 (Yufeng, 12 Jan 2022). This discourse feels recent and might be worth mentioning as a legacy and effect of the Buangkok delay.
  • Were you able to extract anything useful from the Financial Times article I mentioned at the peer review?

That's it from me for now :) Let me know if you need help accessing the sources. YuniToumei (talk) 21:56, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Mike Enzi

[edit]
Nominator(s): Jon698 (talk) 17:41, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Mike Enzi, the third-longest serving U.S. Senator from Wyoming. The son of a shoemaker, he entered politics after being convinced to run for mayor of Gillette, Wyoming in 1974. He defeated the incumbent mayor and was reelected, but left office after declining to run for reelection in 1982. He was elected to the Wyoming House of Representatives and was later appointed to the Wyoming Senate. In 1996, he was elected to his first of four terms in the U.S. Senate. During his tenure in the U.S. Senate he served as chair or ranking member of the Health, Education, Labor and Pensions, and Budget committees. He ended his political career when he left the U.S. Senate in January 2021, but died in a biking accident months later. Jon698 (talk) 17:41, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

There are some important details that people should know because I think these comments will be asked. The section for his time in the Wyoming legislature is rather small because the Wyoming legislature is the least active legislature in the US. The body only meets for 40 days and half of that is allocated to making the budget. Jon698 (talk) 17:43, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Over the past few months I went over every reference in the article (I changed the format to know which ones I already went through). I also searched through JSTOR, Project MUSE, Brill, De Gruyter, and Taylor & Francis through the Wikipedia Library for additional sources. Jon698 (talk) 20:16, 13 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I will be able to do research for the content suggestions below starting on Sunday. Jon698 (talk) 21:34, 16 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Nikkimaria

[edit]

Image review

Support from ZKang123

[edit]

I will take a look at this.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 13:31, 13 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Lead:

  • Just a bit of clarification, but the Air National Guard is considered part of the Air Force?
  • It is a reserve of the Air Force. I removed the mention of it in the first sentence since it is not extremely relevant to him. I don't know who added it. Jon698 (talk) 18:57, 14 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

No issues I can really find for Early life and education

Career:

  • State representative Alan Simpson convinced Enzi to run for mayor of Gillette in 1974. Just curious, but is it known how Enzi met Simpson?
  • I tried searching for this information on Newspapers.com, but nothing popped up.
  • ... mayor of Gillette in 1974... incumbent Mayor Cliff Davis Why is the later Mayor capitalised?
  • I made "incumbent Mayor" lowercase in this edit
  • Two city council seats were vacated within a one month span of April to May 1976, by the resignations of Ed Geringer and Jack Babcock Might rewrite to: Ed Geringer and Jack Babcock resigned within a month of each other in April and May 1976, leaving two city council seats vacant.
  • Also, is it know why they resigned?
  • According to the source Babcock was moving outside of the city limits and Geringer was doing so for personal reasons. There are no other newspaper reports on what those personal reasons were. How would you like me to add this information to the article?
  • Enzi was appointed to serve on the National League of Cities' community development committee. Was appointed by who?
  • The National League of Cities itself according to the source
  • Is it also known when he joined the Republican party and why?
  • I don't think it is possible to find that information. Unless the person has an interesting reason for joining a party then nobody is going to report on it.
  • It was widely speculated that Enzi might run to succeed him Widely speculated by whom?
  • Senator Kelly Mader resigned on December 9, 1991, due to him having moved his family to Denver, Colorado, and starting a business there. Reads a bit awkwardly. Might rewrite to: Senator Kelly Mader resigned on 9 December 1991 after moving with his family to Denver, Colorado, where he started a business.
  • In the elections subsection, is it actually necessary to know how much his opponents spent?
  • It adds a lot of context. For example: A race where you beat your opponent 90%-10% after they spent $5 is far different from a race where you beat your opponent 90%-10% after they spent $5 million.

Will continue reviewing.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 04:16, 14 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Political positions:

  • Opposed to the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act, Enzi voted to sustain a filibuster against it stating that it violated the First Amendment rights of interest groups to contribute money in 1997 and 1998 Would suggest spliting the sentence. Also, I find the part "Opposed to the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act" an odd dangling modifier
  • I removed the wikilink for Treasury Secretary in this edit
  • 16 Republican senators, including Enzi, cosponsored legislation in 2018, that would suspend the 22% tariff on newsprint from Canada Would try to avoid starting a sentence with a figure
  • The environment section could perhaps be reorganised chronologically
  • Legislation in the Wyoming state senate which would declare all same-sex marriages in the United States invalid in Wyoming was supported by Enzi This sentence is a bit complex.
  • Altered in this edit
  • Same for this sentence: The Burmese Freedom and Democracy Act, which eliminated American imports from Myanmar, placed restrictions on the visas of Myanmar's leaders, and required American opposition to international financial institutions giving loans to Myanmar, was passed in 2003, with Enzi as the only senator to vote against it.
  • Altered in this edit

My overall impression is that this is a neat article on his political career, especially based on the local sources available, but I felt there isn't much that really elaborated in his political views (like why was he opposed to estate tax and raising the minimum wage, or why he joined the Republican Party). However, if these explanations/analysis aren't known or covered anywhere (given he might not be that prominent of a politician), then I think the article is fine as is.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 06:33, 17 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@ZKang123: I have responded to all of your comments above. I had a question for the point about "Also, is it know why they resigned?" Jon698 (talk) 18:18, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Jon698: Satisfied with the responses. I also replied to one of your questions.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 01:27, 20 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@ZKang123: Thank you for your comments. Could you change the heading to "ZKang123 (Support)" or "Support from ZKang123"? Jon698 (talk) 19:13, 20 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Support --ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 03:02, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Metalicat

[edit]
  • Scope: I have done a non-specialist prose, structure and internal-consistency pass, concentrating on reader-facing issues.
  • Following on from ZKang123's Air National Guard question above, the account of Enzi's military service is internally inconsistent. The infobox gives the United States Air Force and Wyoming Air National Guard, and the lead calls him an Air Force veteran who served in the Air National Guard, but the body says Enzi served in the Wyoming Army National Guard. The same passage links Officer Candidate School to the United States Navy. Which branch and unit do the sources support? Sorry if I've misunderstood this.
  • I removed Air Force veteran from the lede in an earlier edit stated in ZKang123's section. I also chose to replace US Air Force in the infobox with Air National Guard. The Officer Candidate School is linked to since it "rejected Enzi due to glycosuria".
  • The final lead paragraph gives the wrong chronology:
    • He served until he declined to seek reelection in 2020, and was succeeded by Cynthia Lummis.
  • Changed to "reelection in the 2020 election" in this edit
    • The body says that he announced his retirement on 5 May 2019 and remained in office until January 2021. Something like He announced in 2019 that he would not seek reelection in 2020 and left office in January 2021, when Cynthia Lummis succeeded him. would resolve that.
  • In the opening paragraph, the third longest-serving U.S. Senator from Wyoming Recommend: the third-longest-serving U.S. senator from Wyoming.
  • The Wyoming Legislature section starts with the 1986 election and the 1988 and 1990 reelections, then jumps backwards to John Ostlund's 1978 gubernatorial campaign and speculation about Enzi succeeding him. I suggest that the 1978 material would read more naturally in Local politics, or before the account of the 1986 election.
  • I believe it is easier to read in its current state as the section's paragraph are organized right now as state house elections, state senate appointment and election, and then tenure.
  • The balance of the United States Senate coverage needs another look. Enzi served for 24 years, but the Tenure section devotes a full long paragraph to the 1997 laptop dispute and another largely to awards and ratings. His policy record is then presented mainly as a catalogue of individual votes under Political positions. Could the Senate material be reorganised around the work and subjects that defined his tenure, with the laptop episode and less significant one-off details compressed? The lead would then need to summarise those central themes.
  • There are not too many modern U.S. Senators with FAs so it is hard to find a good format. John McCain (which was promoted all the way back in 2008 so not too good of an example) has an entirely seperate page for his political positions. I do have one FA (Beverly White) and it uses the same format that Mike Enzi has. I think it is easier for the reader if all of the stuff they said or voted on goes into a political positions section while the positions they sought, committee stuff, and other non-political stuff goes into the tenure section. Jon698 (talk) 19:28, 20 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • The electoral-history table:
    • Its screen-reader caption is Electoral history of Kurt Wright. This should be Electoral history of Mike Enzi.
  • Fixed
    • Every party-colour cell contains the malformed attribute style="background-color:{{party color|Republican Party (United States)}};";". The extra ;" should be removed throughout.
    • The prose says that Enzi and the other representatives won the 1990 election against Democratic opponents, but the table places 4,414 votes under the primary columns and marks the general election as not applicable. Please check the election source and reconcile the prose and table.
  • I was unable to find any newspaper reporting on the final election results and emailing the Wyoming election authorities produced no results. The source for Enzi's general election victory only has 20 of 32 precincts reporting so I can't use that for the electoral table. Would you prefer if I added "missing data" instead to the table?
  • The laptop paragraph:
    • On November 5, the Rules committee voted against allowing Enzi to bring his laptop onto the floor, Rick Santorum was the only member that voted to allow laptops onto the floor.
    • Suggested: On November 5, the committee voted against allowing Enzi to bring his laptop onto the floor. Rick Santorum was the only member to support the proposal.
    • As of 2018, all personal electronic devices are still prohibited from the floor. uses relative wording; suggest As of 2018, personal electronic devices remained prohibited from the floor.
  • This sentence is grammatically broken and repeats “signed”:
    • In 2020, signed amicus brief calling for the Supreme Court to overturn Roe v. Wade was signed by 168 representatives and 39 senators, including Enzi.
    • Suggested: In 2020, Enzi was among 39 senators and 168 representatives who signed an amicus brief calling for the Supreme Court to overturn Roe v. Wade.
  • Questioning what objectives would be achieved or interested served should be Questioning what objectives would be achieved or interests served.
  • The gun-rights paragraph has faulty parallelism and a missing full stop. In would require background checks ... regulate the transfer of firearms ... and banning the importation, “banning” should be ban. A full stop is also needed after “parent” and before the citation in the sentence about juveniles possessing semi-automatic weapons.
  • several minor citation-metadata errors:
    • The Jacey Fortin citation is labelled as a New York Times obituary, but its main url= points to the Newspapers.com clipping used for “DeMolays Elect”. Its archived URL points to the obituary.
    • The Ursula Perano citation links to Axios but identifies the work as Vox.
    • The 9 November 1997 Eric Schmitt citation to The New York Times repeats the title of the 10 August Casper Star-Tribune article, although its URL and Harvard target identify a different article.
    • The Kyle Roerink citation repeats the title of the Burns, Kopan and Hohmann Politico article, but its URL points to a different Casper Star-Tribune piece about Cheney criticising a poll. The title should match the linked article.
    • The Iraq war resolution target contains a stray closing parenthesis in both {{sfn|H.J. Res. 114)|2002}} and its {{harvid}} target.
  • I have corrected all of that in this edit
  • The depth of newspaper research is a genuine strength; the Casper Star-Tribune coverage of the mayoral and legislative years documents a local career far more thoroughly than most biographies manage. Nothing above is structural apart from the Senate-balance question, and I will be glad to revisit once these points are addressed. Metalicat (talk) 19:20, 14 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    @Metalicat: I have responded to all of your points above. Jon698 (talk) 19:29, 20 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Jon698, that's a thorough set of responses and most of it has landed cleanly. Three things still open, plus a few I picked up on the re-read.

Military service

This one hasn't been resolved, and I think the change may have gone in the wrong direction. The problem wasn't that the infobox said Air Force; it was that the infobox and lead say Air National Guard while the body says Enzi served in the Wyoming Army National Guard. The article still contradicts itself, and now the infobox and lead agree with each other rather than with the sourced sentence. What does Fortin actually say? Whichever it is, the infobox branch and unit, the lead and the body all need to match.

  • On the Officer Candidate School link: my question was about the target, which is Officer Candidate School (United States Navy). If Enzi was joining the Army or Air National Guard, a Navy OCS rejection is unexpected, and a reader will assume it's a linking slip. Does the 1996 reporting specify the branch? If it doesn't, an unpiped link or a general one would be safer.
  • Correct to state in the body that he served in the Wyoming Air National Guard in this edit. The source states that he was applying for the navy.
The 1990 table row

To answer your question directly: yes, please replace {{n/a}} with something indicating the figures aren't available. As it stands the table asserts that no general election took place, which contradicts the prose saying all three representatives won against Democratic opponents. "Not available" or a similar marker is honest about the gap, whereas n/a makes a claim. Keep the Casper Star-Tribune general-election citation on the row so the "Won" is still supported. Not being able to find precinct-complete returns for a 1990 state house race is entirely reasonable and no reviewer will hold it against you; asserting the wrong thing to fill the cell is the only real problem.

Senate coverage, reframed

Your reasoning on the political positions format is fair. But I don't think layout was really my point, and I'd like to put it differently.

  • The Tenure section covers 24 years in three paragraphs: the laptop dispute, lobbying for Frist plus three awards, and a list of impeachment and Supreme Court votes. The Committees section is a record of who he succeeded and when. Between them, the article never says what Enzi did as chair of Health, Education, Labor and Pensions from 2005, or of Budget from 2015. No bill he wrote or led is described, apart from the Sacagawea dollar and the biennial budgeting proposal, both of which sit in Political positions.
  • I have added a section in the tenure sub-section that includes two resolutions he sponsored and a law he sponsored. If you read the review from the person below, you will see that Enzi only wrote 16 bills that were passed into law. I also moved the ideological sub-section into the tenure sub-section.
  • Being a chair of a committee seems like he would be doing a lot, but he is just presiding over the meetings, overseeing deliberation, and overseeing decorum.
  • Two of your own sources point at the gap. Straub 2005 is titled "An effective compromiser" but is cited only for the fact that he succeeded Judd Gregg. Wheeler 2021 is "Former U.S. Sen. Mike Enzi Remembered For Political Career, Bipartisanship" but is cited only for his being third-longest-serving. Both look as though they contain career assessment that hasn't made it into the article, and there's currently no section where such material would live.
  • I used the Wheeler 2021 reference to add in a sentence about his 80/20 rule for bipartisan compromise.
  • Relatedly, the lead has nothing at all from Political positions, which is roughly half the body. WP:LEAD asks it to summarise the whole article.
  • I added "He was ideologically conservative, but was also one of the most bipartisan Republicans in the U.S. Senate." in this edit
Broken sentences
  • The Campaign finance section opens with a stray link and a duplicated one: Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act, Enzi was an opponent of the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act stating that it violated the First Amendment rights of interest groups.
  • In Wyoming Legislature: It speculated by the Casper Star-Tribune that Enzi might run to succeed him. Suggest The Casper Star-Tribune speculated that Enzi might run to succeed him.
  • Enzi supported legislation in the Wyoming state senate which would declare all same-sex marriages in the United States invalid in Wyoming doesn't quite parse. Do you mean marriages performed in other states?
  • Yes. The sentence is saying that all same-sex marriages in the US would not be recognized in Wyoming.
  • Enzi supported legislation to repeal legislation that phased out incandescent light bulbs repeats "legislation".
  • Changed to "Enzi supported repealing legislation" in this edit
Internal inconsistencies
  • The lead says the third-longest-serving U.S. Senator from Wyoming while the body says the third-longest-serving senator from Wyoming. Per MOS:JOBTITLES the lowercase body version is right.
  • The body says he succeeded Gregg as HELP chair in 2004; the succession box gives 2005–2007.
  • The way that committee and leadership positions work is that they vote on who gets it before the next session starts. This means that Enzi was given the position in 2004, but officially took office in 2005.
  • The lead says he was raised in Thermopolis, Wyoming, but the body has the family moving to Sheridan in 1952, when he was eight, and him graduating from Sheridan High School.
  • Changed to "raised in Thermopolis and Sheridan, Wyoming" in this edit
  • The lead chronology is better but still slightly off: He served until he declined to seek reelection in the 2020 election reads as though his service ended when he declined, whereas he announced in May 2019 and left office in January 2021.
  • Altered to "He declined to seek reelection in the 2020 election and was succeeded by Cynthia Lummis." in this edit
  • Craig Thomas appears in the Committees section as bare Thomas with no prior mention anywhere in the body, so a reader has no idea who he is. He also needs distinguishing from the two separate events both described as "Lott's resignation" (the 2002 leadership resignation and the 2007 Senate one).
Citations
  • The Federal Election Commission entries carry dates that don't match what's being cited: "Mike Enzi 1996 campaign finance" is dated January 1995, "Charles Hardy 2014 campaign finance" and "Curt Gottshall 2014 campaign finance" are both dated January 2007, and "Chris Rothfuss 2008 campaign finance" is dated January 2001. These look like registration dates rather than the cycle being referenced.
  • I removed the years in this edit
  • "Enzi supports move to $1 coin" (June 16, 2013) gives work=Casper Morning Star. The Morning Star name fits the 1963 DeMolay item but not a 2013 one.
  • Corrected in this edit
  • "Campbell rancher appointed to House" is dated January 4, 1992 but its harvid is 1991, so the short citation and the full citation disagree on year.
  • Corrected in this edit
  • {{sfn|Barilleaux|Kelley|2010|pp=207-208}} uses a hyphen where the rest of the article uses en dashes.
  • Changed in this edit
  • In Books, Barilleaux and Kelley is listed third, after Barr and Clymer.
  • Were the 1997 and 1998 filibuster votes on the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act as such, or on earlier McCain–Feingold bills? Naming a 2002 statute for a 1997 vote may be reading the later name backwards.
  • The 2002 statue was proposed in previous years. That is how legislation works.
Small things
  • gave Enzi a F rating should be an F rating.
  • "That" is used for people throughout: 24 U.S. Senators that wrote, 16 Republican senators that cosponsored, one of two senators that voted, the 22 Republican senators that called, the 47 Republican members ... that signed. All want "who".
  • The Public Interest Research Group gets a 0% rating while NARAL gets a zero percent rating.
  • This link was added as a result of the Good Article nomination process. There is no formal rules about this, but unofficial practice is that earlier requests by editors should be honored.
  • Committee is capitalised inconsistently: Finance committee, Budget Committee, Rules committee, Revenue committee.
  • Made lowercase in this edit
  • I will look for more stuff on Enzi to see if I can expand immigration and abortion into their own sections. I don't see where else to put flag desecration since the legislation was to classify it as a criminal act.
  • I made abortion its own sub-section in this edit. However, I'm surprised that there is pretty much nothing about him and abortion even after a basic Google search.

Review from Hurricanehink

[edit]

Seeing that I have an FAC already open, and I'm a fan of U.S. political articles, I figured I should review.

Lead
  • Enzi was born in Bremerton, Washington, raised in Thermopolis and Sheridan, Wyoming, and educated at Sheridan High School, George Washington University, and the University of Denver. - too much for one sentence. The lead is short enough that this can be explained in a few sentences.
  • Made into two sentences in this edit
  • He served in the Air National Guard, and held positions in the American Legion Boys State, DeMolay International, and United States Junior Chamber. - the National Guard is a lot different than the others, and it's also good resume for a future politician. So I was disappointed when the body of the article only had this small detail:
    " In 1996, Enzi stated that he tried to enlist to serve in the Vietnam War, but was ruled medically ineligible and joined the National Guard. Wyoming Veterans of Foreign Wars Commander Bill Saunders and others questioned how he could serve in the National Guard if he was medically ineligible for active service. " - this makes me wonder if there's more to the story. If that was in 1996, it was presumably before Enzi's Senate election campaign.
  • I don't really see what you are asking for. He served for six years in the national guard of a minor state. Nothing to comment on.
  • I tried finding more about it on Newspapers.com, but the entire controversy happened just a few days before the 1996 election. A search for Bill Saunders on Newspapers.com in that period shows nothing new.
  • He entered politics after being convinced by Alan Simpson to run for mayor of Gillette and defeating incumbent mayor Cliff Davis. - since that was his first position, you should add the year
  • Elected to the U.S. Senate in 1996 - this glosses over Enzi's win in a crowded primary.
  • Added to lede in this edit
  • Did Enzi have any legislative achievements? Any notable bills he co-sponsored that could be mentioned in the lead? It seems like his proposal to get laptops on the Senate floor was the closest, and that failed (although that could be interesting in the lead if that's indicative of his legislative career)
  • Enzi sponsored 659 bills according to Congress.gov. I will look there for any major bills he created.
  • I have added both of these to the tenure sub-section of the United States Senate
Early life
  • When/how did Mike meet his wife?
  • A review of Newspapers.com for Diana Buckley and Diana Enzi shows nothing containing that information. A Google Search just gives us articles with information like "They married in 1969." and nothing else. Even this longer piece about her does not describe it. Articles about her cancer diagnosis in 2006 also just state the date of their marriage and nothing else.
Career
  • Water was rationed in Gillette prior to a water pipeline being built during Enzi's tenure as mayor. - this seems like an actual achievement. Could you reword it, like, "As mayor, Enzi approved the construction of a new water pipeline."
  • The Wyoming Legislature part is out of order
  • It is not out of order. It is ordered this way: House elections, Senate elections, and Tenure
  • "It starts with a 1986 election in the first paragraph, then the second paragraph starts by mentioning the 1978 election. Since it's about the mayorship, maybe the opening of the second paragraph should be moved to the mayor tenureship section? ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:38, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • I moved the bit about 1978 to be the start of the section in this edit
Political positions
  • Enzi requested the United States Department of Justice to close the loophole of the Zone of Death in Idaho's section of the Yellowstone National Park.[119] Enzi was notified of this issue as it was covered in C. J. Box's 2007 novel Free Fire.[120] - this could use more detail
  • I've expanded it in this edit. Not much more to say about it since the end result was the DOJ saying "We're aren't going to change anything". The Atlantic source also mentioned how Enzi never made more comments on the issue even when they reached out to him.

The article has some shortcomings. I'm willing to re-review, but I'm going to stop here for now. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:17, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@Hurricanehink: I have answered or replied to all of your comments above. Jon698 (talk) 05:19, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Training Season

[edit]
Nominator(s): NØ 03:06, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Wedding season is in the air, and one of the latest artists to have participated is Dua Lipa. In honor of her dating phase ending, I would like to present you "Training Season". While I often write about other artists associated with, um, training... I am very proud of this article too. Though it didn't have the "psychedelic" sound Lipa was promoting at the start of her album era, it is still a pretty infectious disco-pop song that was a global hit. Kind of ironic that it shares its release date with Lipa's husband's birthday given the lyrical content... Thanks a lot to everyone who will take the time to give their feedback here.--NØ 03:06, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment it's a bit misleading to say "It reached number one in the Commonwealth of Independent States, Turkey, Latvia, and Lithuania" when it only went number one on those countries' airplay charts, not the main ones. 750h+ 04:35, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Demarcation between the different types of charts more clearly drawn as suggested.--NØ 05:35, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Whonting

[edit]

Hey MaranoFan, good to see you back from your break. Having a look over, not too closely at the sourcing on a first run through.

  • "they compared it to other singles from the album" without detail on the substance of the comparisons, this is padding.
  • Some application of WP:THEGAME would help, including cutting mentions of "Training Season", e.g. "Vincent Haycock directed the music video for "Training Season", which depicts..."
  • "In January 2022, she revealed that a large part of songwriting for it had been completed, and half of it was done by March that year." This can be tightened up. I would just cut the January update which doesn't lend meaningful comparison to progress in March, but if it is to be retained, along the lines of WP:MEDSAY move from a framing of "she revealed" with its somewhat promotional tone to "a large part of the songwriting was complete by January 2022" etc.
  • "whom she had been a fan of" this can be cut -- it's unremarkable that a singer says she was a fan of a collaborator during a promotional tour.
  • Can we give a bit more background on the producers? What style they generally work in, what they're bringing to the table etc, lest it just become a list of names.
  • With secondary sources written after the song's release not going into detail about this, I have erred on the side of caution to keep us in due territory and to avoid synthesis. Curious people could explore the wikilinked biographies and find their usual styles quickly in the infobox.
    • At least a bit can be taken from the Rollingstone India piece (e.g. therein Harle is identified as "electronica auteur"). At least for Parker I'd push for including background. - W
  • "Lipa was inspired by the title's dual meaning" Suggest clarifying which title, considering the last title mentioned was "Tokyo Nights".
  • "Lipa was inspired by the title's dual meaning, stating that it is about both informing men that she will no longer be training them about how to treat her as well as the completion of her own personal growth." Hm. Does this make sense? She said it as a play on two meanings, but I don't think those are inherent, and it is strange chronologically to have her create a dual meaning and then be inspired by her creation to talk about the dual meaning? Perhaps "expanded on".
  • "training them about how to treat her"
  • "8 of the 11 tracks finally included on it were written with"
  • "as the lead single from her third studio album"
  • "She wore a sweater with the caption "Training Season" in an Instagram photo in January 2024.[14] On 25 January, Lipa posted a TikTok video of her singing the song's chorus in a car." I would suggest consolidating these.
  • "She premiered it at the 66th Annual Grammy Awards on 4 February."
  • "accompanied by its extended, instrumental, and a cappella versions."
  • "A Recap of Radio Add Recaps" This URL can be marked as dead. I would also appreciate if you could spell out what in it is supporting the text.
  • "Warner's Chester and Reich crew bring in [...] 14 early adds on Dua Lipa's 'Training Season.'" - Chester and Reich is Warner Records' team which promotes songs to radio stations.
  • The composition section strays into an accretion of facts already conveyed in the credits section. Is there any elaboration you could offer on, for instance, what the drums were doing? In general, I would cut details already conveyed in the credits section if all that is being offered is a name not notable for a stand-alone article.
  • It cannot be made sure of that all readers read the Credits section, so it is the norm to cover this information in the prose as well. As for the placement here, I believe it is logical as the instruments played are all part of the composition and the bit about the background vocalists, for example, ties into the girl group harmonies part in the following paragraph. Cameron Gower Poole and Josh Gudwin are the only two names without Wikipedia articles currently, and quite frankly, creating those might be warranted.
    • That's fair. I do still feel some movement can be made on moving the section away from a list of facts; I'll invoke RoySmith's refrain on it reading "choppy". - W
  • The composition section has too many statements attributed rather than summarized. I suspect User:LEvalyn/Getting information from book reviews may be helpful here, even in a different domain.
  • Sorry if I'm being thick: "Lipa's demands from her romantic partners" what she demands of her romantic partners, or what they demand of her?
  • I believe "ideals" is the opposite of "standards" of the source. This can also be better attributed to establish it as Lipa's values.
  • I like how you arranged the critical reception section by theme, but the structure of Outlet's name said is repetitive. Much of it can be consolidated, e.g.: "Reviewers believed "Training Season" was catchy. AllMusic's Neil Z. Yeung included the song among the "truly insidious earworms" on Radical Optimism that were sure to get stuck in listeners' heads, and Wang thought it had "an insanely catchy hook".[55][38] Its hook and beat were described as "infectious" by Slant Magazine's Sal Cinquemani and NME's Damian Jones, respectively." is saying little of substance.
  • Actually I was struggling with this section a little bit before, but I think your comment made me think along the right lines and I have massively redone it. Hope all looks good.
  • "thought they enhanced the fleeting and feel-good quality of the album." MOS:SAID, and I'm not sure what it means for the album to have a "fleeting" quality.
  • "showcased her most powerful skills" singing? Other?
  • "thought the beats were deeper, more layered, and sensual" than?
  • "had consistently embodied" suggest "presented as".
  • The commercial performance section is a bit of a drag. I can't imagine anyone actually reading long lists of countries and an associated number; per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lists#Use prose where understood easily, put this in a list or table. This also afflicts the Background and release section to a lesser extent with its enumeration of versions.
  • Just significantly cut the bulk using a note. Well, we have an entire Charts section with several tables but there needs to be some representation of commercial performance in the written prose. Hope this works for you.
  • Some awkward wording in the music video section. "preoccupied by listening to", "undaunted", "are all trying to impress and capture her attention"
  • "Marie Claire's Sophia Vilensky praised Lipa's hair in it as "a casual sunlit red that looks natural as ever".[113]" WP:DUE? If so, better establish why it isn't just tacked on.
  • Consider adding a screenshot from the music video, which would conveying the framing and scale of pusuit in a way words don't or cannot.
  • Keeping WP:NFCC#3 in mind, and as we already have a copyrighted artwork file and audio sample, I feel like a music video screenshot in this case cannot really be justified to a media reviewer. I believe it is best reserved for cases like "Feather" with some sort of extensive critical commentary or controversy about the video.
  • The Live performances section reads like a rather dry recounting of facts, at least from my reading at the moment. Can you have a go at reworking it to flow better, and consolidating critic assessments? I would also like to hear from you on whether you think there may be a bit too much detail on clothing. I wonder if there are grounds for creating a Fashion of Dua Lipa page?
  • Well, looking at the Grammy performance, we have one sentence purely about Lipa's outfit which looks ok to me. I significantly cut the similar sentence for the Brits performance. Fashion of Dua Lipa sounds like a good idea to me, though, whenever I have some time in the future, lol.
    • This section is looking better, but I have some additional comments / elaborations I'll continue below. - W
  • "she levitated" > was suspended
  • Some MOS quibbles: Per MOS:ENDASH use en-dashes for date ranges, and apply MOS:PLAINLIST in the infobox

Whonting (talk) 17:16, 14 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the very thoughtful and detailed review, Whonting. It has helped a lot. Please do have another look at it when you have some time.--NØ 09:33, 15 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This preceded the release of "Training Season"" repeats "Training Season" in close succession.
  • "into singing "Houdini" in the middle of the stage and performed the dance sequence from its music video" the chronology here is a bit unclear: I'm not sure what the relevance of the middle of the stage here, or when she dismounted the jungle gym (if she did). The detail on her Houdini performance reads like we're straying off-topic.
  • I would try to tighten up the critical reactions to the Grammy's performance, which come across a bit disjointed.
  • "She sang the song" preceding this is the London version, I assume we're just talking about "Training Season" in general?
  • I feel the rest is still a bit drawn out, but I won't press it, and actioning the above will get me across the line to support.

Whonting (talk) 10:19, 15 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

I have implemented all from the second batch of comments along with intros for Parker and Harle, Whonting. Feel free to make any edits you like.--NØ 20:30, 15 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks MaranoFan, I've had a brief spot check of some refs and didn't have anything turn up. Happy to support. Whonting (talk) 23:18, 15 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

[edit]
  • "reprised it at festivals, including the Glastonbury Festival 2024." - "reprised" is an odd word choice here, as that indicates revisiting an earlier performance, implying that the festivals came after the tour mentioned in the same sentence, but Glastonbury 2024 took place before said tour even started......
  • "A large part of songwriting" => "A large part of the songwriting"
  • "Upon release, music critics opined "Training Season" had commercial potential" => "Upon release, music critics opined that "Training Season" had commercial potential"
  • "Lipshutz thought "Training Season" showcased her most powerful musical instincts and people who enjoyed her 2020 single "Physical" would become fans of it.[36]" => "Lipshutz thought that "Training Season" showcased her most powerful musical instincts and that people who enjoyed her 2020 single "Physical" would become fans of it.[36]"
  • "She realizes that the men" - UK spelling is "realises"
  • "Uproxx's Flisadam Pointer thought the aerial dance moves were impressive and Lipa displayed stamina" => "Uproxx's Flisadam Pointer thought that the aerial dance moves were impressive and that Lipa displayed stamina"
  • "Lipa recorded a live performance of the track, which was called the "London Sessions"" - I don't believe the live performance of this one track was called "the London Sessions" (plural). Maybe it was part of a longer release with that title.......?
  • "She sang it at the Royal Albert Hall on 17 October,[157] which was released on the live album Dua Lipa Live from the Royal Albert Hall (2024).[" - I think "She sang it during a performance at the Royal Albert Hall on 17 October,[157] which was released as the live album Dua Lipa Live from the Royal Albert Hall (2024).[" works better
  • Think that's all I got....... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:01, 16 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - pass

[edit]

Here'll be a source review from me! RedShellMomentum 22:23, 17 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This table lists 7 random passages from throughout the article (4.8% of 146 total passages). These passages contain 10 inline citations (3.8% of 262 in the article). Generated with the Veracity user script. RedShellMomentum 22:23, 17 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@MaranoFan: Source review is all good. I've also recently opened up a FAC for "Dick in a Box", you may leave comments there if you wish. RedShellMomentum 23:18, 17 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Reference # Letter Source Archive Status Notes
Warner Records promoted the song to contemporary hit radio stations in the United States.
25 a hitsdailydouble.com web.archive.org ✅
the Middle Eastern-influenced melody to "Gimme! Gimme! Gimme! (A Man After Midnight)" (1979) and "Voulez-Vous" (1979),
41 c variety.com web.archive.org ✅
Others also commented on the production of "Training Season". Aimee Phillips of Clash thought the beats were deeper, more layered, and sensual than Radical Optimism's opening track "End of an Era", while the lyrics carried greater intent, reinforcing the bold and self-assured pop star persona that Lipa had consistently presented as.
60 b clashmusic.com web.archive.org ✅
double platinum in Greece,
103 a "IFPI Charts – Digital Singles Chart (International) – Εβδομάδα: 23/2026" (in Greek). IFPI Greece. … web.archive.org ✅
One line from "Dance the Night" was included,
124 nme.com web.archive.org ✅
125 variety.com web.archive.org ✅
Lipa recorded a live version of the track, which was titled "Training Season (London Sessions)".
28 b music.apple.com web.archive.org ✅
137 thisisdig.com web.archive.org ✅
138 telegraphindia.com web.archive.org ✅
and Romania,
89 a mediaforest.ro ✅

Aoba47

[edit]
  • Whonting mentioned this as well above. I've just gone ahead and given them all the descriptors used by Rolling Stone India.
  • I would recommend linking interpolation as it is an example of music jargon and I could see some readers being unfamiliar with it. It may also be helpful to link earworm later on in the article.
  • If possible, I would add further information on "Tokyo Nights", like the artists or the release date, to provide readers with additional context.
  • Unfortunately nothing exists for us to elaborate on this further than what is in the article. The interpolation is not notable, and even the current mention only exists to avoid giving the impression that the interpolated writers were in the room writing "Training Season" with the actual writers. If it were available, I do agree such information would have benefited readers.
  • Thank you for explanation. That makes sense to me. It is a shame that this was not further discussed in the coverage for the song, but I am not that surprised by it, as a lot of sources do not delve into the more technical aspects of music. Aoba47 (talk) 23:40, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article makes a point that critics praised the single's commercial potential. Was there any subsequent coverage on if the single performed well or not (whether it is compared to Dua Lipa's past singles or other singles from the time period or any other metric)? I was just curious if there was any discussion on if this potential was realized.
  • Rolling Stone, Billboard, and USA Today did call it a hit in passing, but an analysis of the song's commercial performance is not the center point of those articles so it's probably just journalese best ignored by Wikipedia...
  • The list does have 23 different popular songs, so that gives me pause about how noteworthy being included in the show is. I think if "Training Season"'s inclusion itself drew an individual article, like Kelly Clarkson's Kellyoke performances sometimes do, there would be a much better case.
  • I agree with your rationale. For whatever reason, I would have thought that there would have been more coverage of the Drag Racee usage, but this song was part of a larger lip-sync tournament, so it probably just got overshadowed as a result. I looked into this further, and I could not find any significant coverage, and there is an article on this particular Drag Race episode anyway, so any information and citations would be more relevant there. Aoba47 (talk) 23:40, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

I hope that these comments are helpful. Wonderful work with this article. Once everything has been addressed, I will read through everything a few more times to make sure that I have not missed anything. I hope that you are having a great start to your week. Aoba47 (talk) 03:01, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

OMG, an Aoba review! I had to blink my eyes a few times when I saw it. I guess you're just not into Olivia Rodrigo, lol. Helpful comments as always and it should be ready for your re-read.--NØ 18:14, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I am glad that I could help. I do not have any negative opinions on Olivia Rodrigo lol. I have been more so taking a break from reviewing for a bit. I have read through the article, and everything looks good to me. I support this FAC for promotion based on the prose. Best of luck with the FAC! Aoba47 (talk) 23:40, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Ich geh und suche mit Verlangen, BWV 49

[edit]
Nominator(s): Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:48, 11 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a Bach cantata which will turn 300 this year. It's an unusual dialogue of love poetry based on the Song of Songs. The text was written by a student of theology in Leipzig who attended Bach's performances regularly and alluded to many other biblical verses. He had also written the text for the famous Kreuzstab Cantata, premiered the previous week. Bach "dressed" the music in exquisite scoring with an obbligato organ featured in several movements, oboe d'amore and violoncello piccolo. The final movement is a unique combination of chorale, duet and organ concerto. Enjoy! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:48, 11 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

MSincccc

[edit]
History
  • He took office on 30 May 1723, performing his church cantata Die Elenden sollen essen, BWV 75, for the first Sunday after Trinity[3]. In the new position, Bach decided to compose church cantatas for almost
    • While both links to "church cantatas" point to different articles, a surface reader might mistake it for a duplicate link and not visit one of the two.
      I dropped both. They were both already there in the lead and infobox, and make for a sea of blue. Readers still really unfamiliar with this basic concept will find links. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:10, 18 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • We could link to feast days.
    Yes, and I would if this was Catholic. However, it's almost a surprise that the Leipzig Lutherans still held on to a few Saints (John the Baptist and Michael the Archangel, actually, and some feasts of Mary). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:20, 18 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 1726, his fourth," → "In 1726, his fourth year,"
    taken --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:31, 18 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He went on to compose more cantatas for Sundays after Trinity, Ich geh und suche mit Verlangen being one of them." → "He went on to compose more cantatas for the Sundays after Trinity, Ich geh und suche mit Verlangen being one of them."
  • Bach led the first performance of the cantata at the Thomaskirche[9] on 3 November 1726;[9][12] the sermon was given by Urban Gottfried Sieber [de].[9][15]
  • "He was the author of six cantatas before the Advent season of 1726, including Ich will den Kreuzstab gerne tragen, BWV 56, the previous week." → "He was the author of six cantatas before the Advent season of 1726, including Ich will den Kreuzstab gerne tragen, BWV 56, composed the previous week."
    tried: "composed for the previous week" --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:31, 18 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

MSincccc (talk) 15:22, 17 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Music and Manuscripts and publication, and Recordings
  • "as if Jesus said so." → "as if spoken by Jesus."
    taken --GA
  • "with the figuration of the organ expressing in sound what the cantus firmus words:" → "with the figuration of the organ expressing in sound what the cantus firmus states:"
    taken --GA
  • We could link to facsimile.
    done --GA
  • "The manuscripts of both the score and parts survive, possibly revised by Bach." → "The manuscripts of both the score and the parts survive, possibly revised by Bach."
    taken --GA
  • "The selection is taken from the listing provided by Bach Cantatas Website." → "The selection is taken from the listing provided by the Bach Cantatas Website."
    taken --GA
Bottom line

Image review

[edit]

USS Marcus Island

[edit]
Nominator(s): Stikkyy (talk) 00:18, 11 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

USS Marcus Island was another one of the fifty Casablanca-class escort carriers built for the U.S. Navy during World War II. In service, she supported the island-hopping campaigns, providing close air support and dodging kamikazes. This article has undergone a MILHIST A-class review, so pinging the reviewers: A.Cython, Pendright, Hawkeye7. I disclose that I am registered in this year's WikiCup. Stikkyy (talk) 00:18, 11 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Support I reviewed this at A-class and gave source and image reviews there. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:18, 11 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

RoySmith

[edit]

I know this is going to be unpopular (because similar comments I've made before have been), but I still feel obligated to raise the issue of this sort of series article. Comparing USS Marcus Island to articles about other ships in this class: USS Casablanca, USS Liscome Bay, and USS Anzio (CVE-57) (the first three entries in {{Casablanca class escort carrier}}) I'm struck by how similar the Design and description sections are. For example:

She was powered by four Babcock & Wilcox Express D boilers that raised 285 psi (1,970 kPa) of steam at 577 °F (303 °C). The steam generated by these boilers fed two Skinner Unaflow reciprocating steam engines, delivering 9,000 shp (6,700 kW) to two propeller shafts. This allowed her to reach speeds of 19 kn (35 km/h; 22 mph), with a cruising range of 10,200 nmi (18,900 km; 11,700 mi) at 15 kn (28 km/h; 17 mph). For armament, one 5 in (127 mm)/38 caliber dual-purpose gun was mounted on the stern. Additional anti-aircraft defense was provided by eight Bofors 40 mm (1.57 in) anti-aircraft guns in four twin mounts and twelve Oerlikon 20 mm (0.79 in) cannons mounted around the perimeter of the deck. By 1945, the standard armament for the Casablanca-class carriers had grown to twenty Oerlikon cannons and sixteen Bofors guns. The sensors onboard consisted of an SG surface-search radar and an SK air-search radar.[9] In action, the Casablanca-class carriers were intended to function with a crew of 860. A typical embarked squadron consisted of sixteen Grumman F4F Wildcat fighters and twelve Grumman TBF Avenger torpedo bombers, stowed in the hangar deck between the two elevators.[10]

She was powered by four Babcock & Wilcox Express D boilers that raised 285 psi (1,970 kPa) of steam at 577 °F (303 °C). The steam generated by these boilers fed two Skinner Unaflow reciprocating steam engines, delivering 9,000 hp (6,700 kW) to two propeller shafts. This allowed her to reach speeds of 19 kn (35 km/h; 22 mph), with a cruising range of 10,240 nmi (18,960 km; 11,780 mi) at 15 kn (28 km/h; 17 mph).[12] For armament, one 5 in (127 mm)/38 caliber dual-purpose gun was mounted on the stern. Additional anti-aircraft defense was provided by eight Bofors 40 mm (1.57 in) anti-aircraft guns in single mounts and twelve Oerlikon 20 mm (0.79 in) cannons mounted around the perimeter of the deck. By 1945, Casablanca-class carriers had been modified to carry twenty Oerlikon cannons and sixteen Bofors guns; the doubling of the latter was accomplished by putting them into twin mounts. Sensors onboard consisted of a SG surface-search radar and a SK air-search radar.[4][13]

She was powered by four Babcock & Wilcox Express D boilers that raised 285 psi (1,970 kPa) of steam at 577 °F (303 °C). The steam generated by these boilers fed two Skinner Unaflow reciprocating steam engines, delivering 9,000 shp (6,700 kW) to two propeller shafts. This allowed her to reach speeds of 19 kn (35 km/h; 22 mph), with a cruising range of 10,200 nmi (18,900 km; 11,700 mi) at 15 kn (28 km/h; 17 mph). For armament, one 5 in (127 mm)/38 caliber dual-purpose gun was mounted on the stern. Additional anti-aircraft defense was provided by eight Bofors 40 mm (1.57 in) anti-aircraft guns in four twin mounts and twelve Oerlikon 20 mm (0.79 in) cannons mounted around the perimeter of the deck. By 1945, the standard armament for the Casablanca-class carriers had grown to twenty Oerlikon cannons and sixteen Bofors guns. The sensors onboard consisted of an SG surface-search radar and an SK air-search radar.[9] In action, the Casablanca-class carriers were intended to function with a crew of 860. A typical embarked squadron consisted of sixteen Grumman F4F Wildcat fighters and twelve Grumman TBF Avenger torpedo bombers, stowed in the hangar deck between the two elevators.[10]

She was powered by four Babcock & Wilcox Express D boilers that raised 285 psi (1,970 kPa) of steam at 577 °F (303 °C). The steam generated by these boilers fed two Skinner Unaflow reciprocating steam engines, delivering 9,000 hp (6,700 kW) to two propeller shafts. This allowed her to reach speeds of 19 kn (35 km/h; 22 mph), with a cruising range of 10,240 nmi (18,960 km; 11,780 mi) at 15 kn (28 km/h; 17 mph).[12] For armament, one 5 in (127 mm)/38 caliber dual-purpose gun was mounted on the stern. Additional anti-aircraft defense was provided by eight Bofors 40 mm (1.57 in) anti-aircraft guns in single mounts and twelve Oerlikon 20 mm (0.79 in) cannons mounted around the perimeter of the deck. Sensors onboard consisted of a SG surface-search radar and a SK air-search radar.[9][13]

Without peeking at the identifying HTML comments, can you tell which one came from which article? The rest of the sections have similar overlaps between articles. Why could most of this not just be in Casablanca-class escort carrier with a (much) shorter summary for each ship? There's plenty to write about that's unique to each hull's individual history without having to repeat this boilerplate design material in each article. RoySmith (talk) 18:36, 11 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

You're not wrong, it's pretty much a copy-paste job across the class, since Kaiser tried to standardize them to the utmost. Right now, I have two paragraphs describing the 'why' and 'how' fifty of these things got produced, what they were intended to do, and what they actually ended up doing, as well as two paragraphs describing the ship characteristics. Do you think that they should be trimmed down? Stikkyy (talk) 19:30, 11 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Well, looking at what you have now for Design and description, I would say that everything from "The escort carrier programs were driven by the U.S. Navy's unpreparedness" all the way to "the Navy ordered fifty" could be eliminated and consigned to the main article, although you could certainly say that she was one of 50 in the class (actually, coming back here, I see you already have that under Construction).
For the copy-pasted paragraphs I quoted above, the first few sentences could easily be reduced to (something like) "She had two reciprocating steam engines delivering 9000 shp to two propellers for a top speed of 19 kts". Some people will certainly want to dig into the details of the boilers, pressures, temperatures, etc, but that's what the "Main article" is for. Likewise with the guns and aircraft. The details of the squadrons is cited to a source which only talks about the class. It's almost WP:SYNTH to combine "Marcus Island was a Casablanca class ship" with "Casablanca class ships normally embarked 12 Avengers and 16 Wildcats" and come up with "Marus Island had 12 Avengers and 16 Wildcats". It's not technically synth because you qualified it with "a typical embarked squadron ...", but that's getting into MOS:WEASEL territory.
BTW, do we actually know that the propulsion plant you described is indeed what got installed in Marcus Island? I could certainly envision that in the construction scramble, that exact model of boiler or engine might not be available to hit the installation schedule on some hulls so a similar replacement might have been used. My understanding, for example, is that some of the Iowa-class battleships had slightly different machinery, despite being a single design class. I'm sure stuff like that happened all the time.
If you really wanted to go into what was typical for the class as far as planes, I think the place to do it would be under Squadron history. It might make sense to say something like "At the Battle of Mindoro, Marcus Island embarked 24 FM-2's and 9 TBM-1C's, in contrast to the more typical embarkation schedule for the Casablanca class" (and likewise for the other operations). Rather than just repeating the boilerplate class data, you would be putting it in the context of a specific operation of this specific ship.
The bottom line is, make this article about this ship. If somebody is interested in learning more about the class, they know where to go for that. RoySmith (talk) 21:33, 11 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Roysmith: OK, I compressed it down to two paragraphs. Stikkyy (talk) 00:01, 14 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@RoySmith: Stikkyy (talk) 00:02, 14 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
With regards to BTW, do we actually know that the propulsion plant you described is indeed what got installed in Marcus Island? I could certainly envision that in the construction scramble, that exact model of boiler or engine might not be available to hit the installation schedule on some hulls so a similar replacement might have been used. – from [1]: The Casablanca class, both because of its numbers and its last starting position in the race for contracts, had to settle for less desirable machinery, but ma­chinery which might be available when needed. This turned out to be the Skin­ner Uniflow reciprocating steam engine, powerful enough, but seldom consid­ered for marine use because it could not compete economically with diesel and turbine equipment.
The Casablanca-class were getting their engines from basically the same production line as the civilian ships. Per fluid dynamics, a fast battleship doing 30 knts necessarily requires a LOT more power than an escort carrier or destroyer escort doing 20 knts. Stikkyy (talk) 00:14, 14 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
OK, the new version is certainly less verbose than what was there originally. I probably would have been more ruthless, but it's a significant improvement, so thank you and let's call it done.
I'm still a little concerned that you are using sources that talk about (I don't have the sources here, so just guessing from the titles) the class or a sister ship (Gambier Bay) and inferring from that what this ship has. I know you've said they were all the same, churned out of the same commercial production line, but there's still a bit of WP:SYNTH poking its nose out from behind the curtain. I'll just state my concern here and leave it to other reviewers to make up their own minds on that. RoySmith (talk) 00:37, 14 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Eunos MRT station

[edit]
Nominator(s): Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 02:55, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a small local train station in Singapore. Despite surrounding stations having modern, sleek domed roofs, this station actually has a traditional Malay-style roof. The station also had several design-related issues, all of them strangely concerning stairs.

Anyways, this was one of the earliest articles I've worked on. Premeditated Chaos gave me the idea to nominate one of my articles for FAC, and ZKang123 suggested that I nominate this article. I do believe that this article, despite its niche, is comprehensive enough for FAC. I've also adopted an efn style similar to Noleander (who has also done a wonderful peer review for this article). Let the floodgates be opened. Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 02:55, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

YuniToumei

[edit]

I'll review this over the coming days. YuniToumei (talk) 12:54, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Lead
  • Plans for Eunos were outlined in May 1982 as part of the initial MRT system, and it was planned as part of Phase IIA: There is a duplication of "Plans/planned", and of "as part". Could this be rewritten to avoid this?
History

Planning, construction, and opening

  • Throughout the article, the station is sometimes referred to as "Eunos station" and sometimes just as "Eunos". Same for other mentioned MRT stations like Jurong West. Would be nice to make this more consistent maybe? Could also be a form of consistency where the first time a station name is mentioned in a paragraph, it still says "{name} station", and then subsequently only "{name}", for example.
  • with Eunos part of "Phase II": Somewhat of an unclear clause. I think if you were to fill in the implied verb, it would be "with Eunos being part of "Phase II"", which is a form of WP:PLUSING (i.e. what exactly is the connection of this clause to the one before it?). You have the same situation in the sentence following it. Could you rephrase them to avoid that construction?
  • which was 32.6 kilometres (20.3 mi) long and composed of 22 stations: This doubles info already said just one sentence earlier in Eunos was proposed to be constructed as part of the 32.6 km (20.3 mi) East–West Line (EWL), which was to have 22 stations
  • among five other tenders: "tenders" or "tenderers"? Before the article spoke of 7 tenderers.
  • contract included the construction of Eunos station and viaducts to Kembangan station: While this is technically true, it is not sufficiently clear to me from that sentence that the contract now includes these additionally to Paya Lebar and the Paya Lebar–Eunos viaduct (if I understood the source right). Maybe "By then, the contract also included" or so.
  • was terminated, with the former undertaking: Another plus-ing. Clearer to say "after which the former undertook"
  • began in December 1985: About the footnote clearing up the inconsitency in the sources, the article from The Business Times says "Work on the project started in December 1985". By "the project", they refer to the contract including not just Eunos as you explained earlier. This makes it unclear to me whether work on Eunos actually already began in December 1985, it could be that they started with another element in that contract first. The Weekend East article, on the other hand, says that work specifically on Eunos started in January 1986. Shouldn't this be more accurate?
  • VSL Systems Pte Ltd: Can you do away with the Pte Ltd per WP:NCCORP? It's different for Okumura Corporation where Corporation seems to be an integral part of the common name. Also, you can probably link it to VSL International? Seems to be just the Singaporean branch of VSL (which on their website is also referred to as "VSL SINGAPORE PTE LTD", so maybe a better name would be "VSL Singapore"?) if I'm not mistaken.
  • It was later found out that: Drop the "out".
  • post-tensioned cables: This isn't my area of expertise, but we do have a redirect for post-tension → Prestressed concrete. I assume the cables here are the same things as the tendons described in that section of the concrete article? If yes, a wikilink should be added.

Developments after opening

  • from the station's terrace to the ground underwent repairs after it had sunk into the ground: You've got a duplication of "ground", and the first instance of "ground" is a bit unclear. Maybe "from the station's terrace to the street level" to solve both issues?
  • a man fell: The police in ref 37 says that the man jumped. Is this the same as saying he fell? The train operator in ref 38 said that they saw him fall. Which is true? Though I understand that this is a sensitive issue regarding Werther effect.

This is it for now up to and including the history section per Special:PermaLink/1363580526. YuniToumei (talk) 16:17, 11 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Stuff above looks good, I've replied to one point. YuniToumei (talk) 15:02, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Details
  • surrounding landmarks such as the Eunos Bus Interchange, Masjid Darul Aman, Eunos Crescent Market and Food Centre, Mangala Vihara Buddhist Temple, and the Kampong Ubi Police Post: I'm not sure a bus interchange and a police post should be called a landmark.
  • mostly wheelchair-accessible: Why mostly? The map cited suggests that all exits are accessible. You wrote on List of Singapore MRT stations that all stations are accessible.
  • Exit A doesn't have a wheelchair icon (compared to the other exits), so it's not wheelchair accessible. I think when the LTA says that "all stations are accessible", it's more so that all of them are accessible, but to different extents. For example, the newer stations tend to be fully accessible, whereas the initial MRT stations are only somewhat accessible since they weren't really designed with the disabled in mind, unfortunately. Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 15:16, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • high-volume low-speed fans, which were installed by the first quarter of 2013: There's a problem with the sourcing here: The source says whether HVLS or jet fans depends on the structure of the station roofs, and doesn't specify which were chosen for Eunos. It also states that the installation was "expected" to complete by the first quarter, but you would ideally use a source that retrospectively states that they have been installed.
  • profiled steel roof sheeting: Is this Corrugated steel? If yes, could benefit from a wikilink.
  • My main concern was that a term like "profiled steel" might be a bit too technical and that a wikilink could alleviate that. But if there's no suitable link target then eh. YuniToumei (talk) 18:33, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • well-received by other government agencies: Why other? Other than what? Was it not well-received by the Panel itself?
  • Thank you for providing the source to me. Now that I've crossread it, I think I see where the problem is. Currently, the article connects the presentation of the design to the ARP and other government agencies temporally with the word "when". To my understanding, the source says that the ARP was happy with the design in its weekly meetings with the designers, but other government agencies separately liked the design so much, that the designers were also commissioned for Eunos. As it is, these two sentences – especially with the parentheses – are clunky and don't flow well. I'd try to simplify and break up the sentences. I would have started with what the roof design was meant for, then in a new sentence explain how the design was received, and last how it was selected for Eunos specifically. YuniToumei (talk) 18:33, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Regarding the art section, it talks a decent bit about the themes and motives about these murals. Is there any more you could write about the process of creation? It feels a bit barebone.
  • Two secondary sources cover the mural in a bit of detail (ex: motives, what the creator thinks of it, etc), so I think it can stay. As to how much coverage we should give, I think a description of what the mural depicts can be axed; the secondary sources focus on the topic of the mural. Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 19:05, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the review for the Details section. YuniToumei (talk) 15:02, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Responded in-line, YuniToumei. Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 16:44, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Left replies inline. YuniToumei (talk) 18:33, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

I did a check on comprehensiveness by skimming through potential sources in the news. Looks mostly good to me. The only thing I could find was a 2015 article listing Eunos as one of 17 stations that might be redesigned to give passengers more space on the platforms by 2018. No article after that seemed to report on such a conversion though. Do you happen to know if this was anything major worth mentioning? YuniToumei (talk) 18:33, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I did see an LTA press release on that during my research. As much as I'd like to, I decided not to include it since I couldn't really find any source that details any aftermath of this plan (or whether it even went through – much to my knowledge, I don't think this plan was implemented, but the mind is not the most reliable source), so it's a minor aspect I guess. Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 19:05, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - pass

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Hi Icepinner, happy to do the image review. The article contains the following images:

All images are relevant to the article and placed in appropriate locations. They have alt-texts and captions. Is there a specific reason for the two external media boxes in the article? I think the more standard approach would be to move those links to the section "External links". Phlsph7 (talk) 08:36, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Phlsph7, thank you for the image review! Regarding the external media boxes, they contain links to copyrighted media related to the station and its history (like map sites of the station when it was first announced, images of the station mural artwork, etc). I do realise that some of them are not really relevant (like a link to the termination notice on the contract to build the station – the notice is cited as a primary source, anyway), and there wasn't enough external media to justify the external image boxes, so I moved them to the "External links" section, anyway. Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 15:07, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good. That takes care of the remaining concern. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:11, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

History of military logistics

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Nominator(s): Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:51, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

I split this article off from Military logistics. This is one of those high-level articles that a traditional encyclopaedia has, but where the Wikipedia is deficient. I have tried to make a start with this article, which I created by splitting the history section off from the parent article, rewriting, and adding material. Almost all the article is now my work.

There are good reasons why these sort of top-level articles do not get the attention that many readers would expect, the major one being that they are so hard to write. This article has to cover 2,000 years of military history. Ideally, it would be a summary of its subarticles, but none of them currently exist. The task of this article is therefore to cover important developments without getting into to much detail and degenerating into a catalogue of battles and wars.

A conscious effort was made to avoid making the article Euro-centric, and to incorporate examples from around the world. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:51, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@Hawkeye7 - Looks like a great article! I'll try to do a review soon. If possible, can you post a note here identifying any significant changes made to the article since the prior FAC nomination? That may be useful to reviewers. Noleander (talk) 01:59, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]


Comments by A.Cython

[edit]

Looks like a great article. I have mostly some cosmetic prose comments from my first read.

  • there was the shift → there was a shift
    Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:42, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • with the increase in army sizes add comma at the end
    Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:42, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • made water transports faster → made water transport faster (drop the "s" in transports)
    dropped. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:42, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the twentieth century add comma at the end
    Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:42, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • back pack → backpack (also consider using/mentioning the Sarcina)
    Mentioned. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:42, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • poutry → poultry (spelling)
    Corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:42, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • sites like monasteries → sites such as monasteries
    Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:42, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • butter and cheese was produced → butter and cheese were produced
    Corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:42, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • no grain, but need → no grain, but needed
    Corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:42, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • 14,000 or so men → approximately 14,000 men
    Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:42, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • was able to implement some sort of regular resupply → was able to implement a regular resupply
    Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:42, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • enabled it cross → enabled it to cross
    Corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:42, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • the American Civil also something is missing here
    "War". Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:42, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • The great size of the German Army → The sheer size of the German Army
    Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:42, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Germany war effort → German war effort (drop the "y")
    Corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:42, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • but the instance of this disease now disappeared almost completely. Not sure what you mean by "instance"
    Changed to "incidence". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:42, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • where there were → with
    Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:42, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am wondering what the sources say about the navy for military logistics in antiquity and early medieval times, beyond what stated. From my experience, the navy played a critical role in military logistics (transport of troops, supply, etc) due to its speed and capacity. But it was not just the Romans, Alexander the Great had a supply fleet which vital to his campaigns.
    Plenty. I can add a bit about this. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:42, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    I do not think it is a matter of adding much. The sea travel in military logistics appears in the last paragraph in antiquity where the last part focus on Romans. This gives the impression that sea travel was developed during the Roman times along with the development of the road network. My understanding (without having time to dig into books, so take this with a pinch of salt) is the reverse. The development of a road network was a novelty because most civilizations relied more on sea/river travel than on land. Perhaps the most notable example is perhaps Pericles's plan during the Peloponnesian War, where Athens had to rely exclusively on its colonies for food supply via sea routes while at the same time using its navy to conduct raids around the Peloponnese where the Spartans were unable to respond fast enough being a land/infantry power. This was not unique to Greeks, but also to Carthaginians, Egyptians, etc. So perhaps the sea travel ought to be mentioned earlier in a non-Roman centric discussion? My two cents. A.Cython(talk) 02:07, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    Mentioned earlier to head this off. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:58, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    I read it but still feels off. The use of ships during the Bronze and classical ages was different. Perhaps I am not good in explaining as I am not an expert of the field, but perhaps I can point to a couple of sources.
    The Cambridge History of Greek and Roman Warfare p.253 Thucydides highlights two principal preconditions for large-scale power expansion, both of which have recently been rediscovered by historical sociologists and anthropologists: (1) current military technology and infrastructure must be able to meet the logistical challenges posed by such a project; and (2) a single polity must be able to mobilize and organize under its leadership a wide-ranging military potential.18 The one Greek state to succeed where all others had failed is of course classical Athens. This is not so much about Athens but rather pre-conditions for having effective military logistics, which applies to everyone.
    Also in pages 369-388 describe the development of logistics and how it influenced army sizes and strategy. In a nut-shell, as the city-states grew so were the armies from 20,000-30,000 in classical age to 100,000 during Hellenistic period; though Carthage was able to achieve this before the Romans and Greeks. The Romans reversed this trend even though they were capable to field such large armies, because they saw value on smaller sizes. Additionally, it notes the use of logistics as a weapon, i.e., attacking supply lines. During the Hellenistic period cutting supply lines became an increasingly important strategy: Antigonus I used it effectively during his campaign against Lysimachus in 302. Cutting off a mountain pass over which provisions were transported, Antigonus forced his enemy to retreat (Diod. Sic. 10.108.5–7). The Romans were also skilled at the use of logistics as a weapon: an example is Fabius Maximus putting pressure on Hannibal’s supplies during the Italian campaign. Scipio’s lightning strike on New Carthage took out a key element in the Carthaginian logistical infrastructure.
    Note that before Black, Jones also mentioned the cost effectiveness of the navy in his book p.842 It was cheaper to ship grain from one end of the Mediterranean to the other than to cart it 75 miles., which is a sharper comparison.
    Overall, I agree with UC, something is missing in Antiquity section. IMO it is not so much about the distribution (if the sources are Euro-centric so be it, WP should reflect this), but rather a more cohesive narrative of how military logistics evolved and shaped warfare. A.Cython(talk) 03:10, 13 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    The use of ships differed between the Bronze and Classical ages due to the development of the naval ram. This led to warships differing in design from merchant ships: they became sleeker and faster, and used lighter wood, so did not last as long. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:47, 13 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

More to come. A.Cython(talk) 02:54, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest editing captions for grammar
  • Suggest adding alt text
  • File:Roman_Legionaire_Carnuntum_2008_01.jpg: the "Reenactment of" link is dead. Ditto File:Roman_Legionaire_Carnuntum_2008_02.jpg
    It is just the link to the reenactment club, I could add the archive link [2]] but it doesn't add much, so deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:11, 11 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Firefly_train.JPG: when and where was this first published?
    No idea, but since the source clearly states it to be PD, switched to the PD-US tag. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:11, 11 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Feldbahn,_Eisenbahnkreuzung_bei_Jezierna_(BildID_15442020).jpg: when and where was this first published and what is the author's date of death? Nikkimaria (talk) 19:54, 11 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

UC

[edit]

I reviewed this last time around, and it's good to see it back here.

One of my major issues last time was the article's strongly Euro/American-centric perspective. I note the nominator's comment that this has been worked on (FWIW, I think Noleander's suggestion above is excellent and should be strongly considered in all repeat nominations), but I'm still seeing broadly the same (im)balance of content and skewed structure. Taking the "Antiquity" section as an example:

  • By my count in Word, the section is about 915 words, split into six paragraphs.
  • We have a very short introductory paragraph that is more or less geographically agnostic, though it elides the important fact that "Neolithic" only covers the Old World. After that, we have two sentences on the Assyrians, then two more that seem to be about the Assyrians but I suspect intend to be read more broadly, then we go into the Greeks (see below). Then it's a big paragraph on Greeks and three (almost entirely) on Romans.
  • In one notable case, this puts the information in a very strange order, since we discuss the Roman roads of the third century CE and then casually mention that the Persians "also" build a road network -- that network came first, and was at least as significant as part of the history of military logistics (I'm interested that the two Persian invasions of Greece don't get a mention, for example, while the Sicilian Expedition does -- the former seem much more important in the light of the topic at hand).
  • Again at a rough count, the overall distribution is about:
    • 53 words about South America
    • 79 words of non-specific, implicitly set in Europe.
    • 112 about Assyria
    • 224 about the Greeks
    • 410 about the Romans, which go into some very fine detail about how much stuff each person carried, how many people shared a tent, etc.
    • 19 words split between China, India and Persia, going into almost no detail at all.
For those keeping track, that's about 70% Europe, 15% Asia, 9% agnostic, 6% South America, and 0% Africa or North America. I know it's a tough job to balance such a huge subject and that it requires difficult editorial decisions, but I can't see that this outcome is a very good place to land.

This is meant to be illustrative rather than exhaustive -- the same sort of patterns occur throughout. For example, the "Seventeenth century" section not only doesn't leave Europe, but sticks entirely to Great Britain, France and the Low Countries. As I mentioned in the last review, the imbalance is particularly obvious in the images, which are overwhelmingly from the US military; only one is from outside the US/European world, and even that's a Roman road in Asia Minor. I don't think this is going to be solved by simply adding or tweaking: at least the Antiquity section needs a complete rethink.

A smaller nit-pick that I'll get in here: By the time of the Illiad, the Greeks were able to transport and army and provision it by sea -- the Iliad (sp.) is not a historical document. It's definitely fair to say that it purports to describe a war at the end of the Bronze Age, and that it's a fundamental part of the myth behind it that that war involved moving (and presumably supplying, though this bit is completely absent from the poem) a very large army by sea. However, although elements of the poem and myth definitely date back at least that far, it's far too simplistic and almost certainly untrue to say either that a) the Iliad straightforwardly records a real war that took place c. 1200 BCE or b) that the crucial elements of story of the Iliad as we know it were certainly in place by the time that war was meant to have happened, c. 1200 BCE. There are a couple of smaller nitpicks on content as well, but I'll keep those back for now: there seems little point in talking fine details if the overall thing is going to need a lot of pulling apart. UndercoverClassicist T·C 08:42, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

The idea was to avoid a strongly Euro/American-centric perspective, but the requirement is to be comprehensive, hence focus is on the technology, and a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature. There's no reason for every war to rate a mention. The mention of the Illiad is only to say that ships were available in the Bronze Age. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:52, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
The choice of images is dictated by what is available in the public domain. I've had to remove a couple where the copyright was uncertain. It was the same with the article on INTERFET, where I had to rely mainly on American images, because our Australian Army uses Creative Commons Non-Commercial, which we cannot use here. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:56, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
No disagreements there, particularly on There's no reason for every war to rate a mention -- but then we have to be able to defend the relative choices we make. There's no reason why Polybius inherently rates a mention, for example, except that by comparison with the available alternatives, he's the best one and contributes most to a rounded article. Unfortunately, he's got some tough competition! Ditto, the Sicilian Expedition, while no doubt an impressive logistical achievement, has pretty stern competition for notability, scale, legacy and indeed interest when it comes to the topic of supplying a large number of people far from home. It's interesting enough that eight Romans shared a tent rather than four or ten, but I can't see that this is more important to the history of military logistics than the fact that Ancient Egypt existed. So it's fine to say that we can't include everything, but it needs to follow from that that we've made at least a reasonable and representative choice as to what we do include; as I said above, I really can't see that where we've landed constitutes that.
On the Iliad, that (The mention of the Illiad is only to say that ships were available in the Bronze Age -- again, note there's only one L in Iliad) is precisely my point -- the Iliad doesn't demonstrate that ships were available in the Bronze Age, any more than Macbeth demonstrates that medieval Scots spoke in iambic pentameter. The Iliad is fundamentally an Iron Age text, and most people would date it to about 750 BCE. The stories are older, sure, but there's no record of the Trojan myth, or even the "armada of a thousand ships", in genuinely Bronze Age Greek material. You'd be better going with something like the Uluburun shipwreck for evidence of Bronze Age peoples moving stuff around by sea, but it's difficult to find direct evidence of them moving a lot of warriors and supplies for them -- probably the best is the idea of the Mycenaean conquest of Crete, but even that's a bit historically dicey. UndercoverClassicist T·C 07:12, 13 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I have re-work the section to make it more topical rather than chronological. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:49, 13 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
That wasn't really the problem. I'm glad that Xerxes made it into the new version, but the overall balance of places and peoples -- and some of the (in my view) strange decisions with regard to priority -- remain. Some of the following sections are better than others, but overall the balance remains pretty heavily skewed (we don't leave Europe for the entire sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, and only barely do so after that before the twentieth).
It's not the problem itself, but the usual structure seems to be "talk about Europe, then make sure we've mentioned other places too" -- this gives the impression that Europe is being presented as the "rule" or the most important focus throughout, and might have made it harder to write something genuinely balanced. Notice how, for example, all of "Middle Ages", "Sixteenth century", and "First World War" begin with a framing sentence about developments in Europe (as does "Antiquity", though the geography isn't explicitly stated) -- as if social changes in western Europe are the key context for all warfare in the Middle Ages (most of which took place in East Asia, where there were some very important developments in military organisation and logistics -- see the fubing system). I'm not saying that you just need to rewrite the first sentence of each section, but I'm offering it as evidence of what seems to be the pattern of thought behind how the article is put together.
I think by this point I need to formally declare an oppose. Honestly, I think it would be quite a lot of work to get the article out of its present Euro/US-centric state (which doesn't simply mean that lots or even most of the material is about Europe and the US), and then there's quite a few smaller issues that I'd be looking to get sorted, but as ever I'm open to revising this if the issues are resolved. UndercoverClassicist T·C 05:35, 14 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
This is no requirement for this; only that it "neglects no major facts or details and places the subject in context" and "is a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:05, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I would ground my opposition on 1b (several major facts and details are neglected, while much more minor facts are given undue emphasis), 1c (it is neither a thorough nor a representative survey of the relevant literature, and does not follow WP:DUEWEIGHT), and 1d (a skewedly Eurocentric perspective, leaving aside the more specific question-marks I raised about emphasis, is by definition not a neutral perspective). I'll defer to the co-ordinators as to whether these objections are within scope. UndercoverClassicist T·C 12:33, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
It would helpful if you could point out a WP:RS that presents the history of military logistics in the particular way. I think this will help the coordinators, the nominator, and the other reviewers to understand the basis of your objection. Thank you. A.Cython(talk) 14:57, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure that is the basis of the objection -- I'm not saying "we haven't make the same editorial choices as other publications have", I'm saying "the way we have made editorial choices here is skewed and deficient". I'm not aware of a whole lot of WP:HQRS that attempt to give a worldwide history of military logistics: it's a reasonably niche topic, after all. If we've applied the same test to most of "my" FACs, we would have run into difficulty early on, since for many of those topics (objects like the Aineta aryballos, people like Alison Frantz, ideas like the Saxe–Goldstein hypothesis, and so on), Wikipedia's article is the most thorough "published" treatment of the subject in existence. Barring a Britannica article, whose author died in 2001 (and which raises many of the same concerns as I have with our article here, though perhaps to a slightly lesser extent), I think that may well be true of this topic too.
With that said, FACR 1d doesn't have a carveout to say "it presents views fairly and without bias, unless other people have written about it in an unfair and biased way, in which case this criterion does not apply", nor does FACR 1c read "it is a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature, unless the writers of (e.g.) Britannica haven't bothered to write a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature, in which case our article need not be one either.". So I'm not sure it would make a difference either way, though I acknowledge it would be easier to fix the article's weaknesses if there were a nice template to work from. I did look through the list at WP:FA to find another history article on a broad, worldwide topic, and couldn't find one in the 252 listed -- make of that what you will! UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:04, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
There is one book, which I have used in the article, which tries to provide a global perspective: Black, Jeremy (2021). Logistics: The Key to Victory. Barnsley, South Yorkshire: Pen and Sword. ISBN 978-1-39900-601-9. OCLC 1246284038.. Otherwise, everybody studies their period, region or subtopic. For the article, I researched pre-Columbian American warfare; the expert here is Ross Hassig, who fortuitously has an interest in the logistics. For a source on Xerxes, I turned to A Companion to the Achaemenid Persian Empire, Christopher Hassan's Chapter 80, "Structure of the Army and Logistics", which starts with "Research on the structure and logistics of the Achaemenid army has been rather limited". So there's a PhD out there waiting for a Farsi speaking candidate with an interest in ancient logistics. Don't hold your breath.
None of the top-level articles on military history have made it to FAC, and only two to A-class, and this review is a good example of why. It is extremely hard to write these top-level articles! I give extra kudos to editors who make the attempt; most find it easier to work on niche articles. The 2004 assumption that we would write articles top down, spinning off subarticles, has been disproven by experience; it rarely happens. I did do this successfully with Manhattan Project and it took ten years to develop the subarticles. 21:37, 24 July 2026 (UTC) Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:37, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you both for these enlightening responses. I will try to get these sources. I also agree with sentiment of writing top-down is more challenging. I find a bottom-up to be easier to handle, i.e., writing one battle after another and then describe the whole war. I do think you have done a great job improving the current article. A.Cython(talk) 22:32, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

1909 Chinese provincial elections

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Nominator(s): Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 12:56, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the first set of elections held across the Qing dynasty in 1909, just a couple years before its collapse. They were the first provincial elections ever held in China, and suffrage was restricted only to wealthy men, few of who even turned out to vote. There were no parties, and the bodies elected were purely advisory, so this is written a bit differently from a typical election article. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 12:56, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Vacant0

[edit]

I will revie this. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 15:16, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Lol, I started the review last night and forgot to save the review and all of my progress is now gone. RIP. I'll start over.

  • Maybe add an infobox?
    • There's not much information that could be added; there aren't definite figures on the makeup of political alignments and the total number of eligible voters (and thus turnout), and the different political blocs didn't have clear leaders. So an infobox wouldn't really have any information beyond the map and the basic information described in the lede.-G
  • Lede is okay.
  • Maybe explain what "imperial examination system" is in a sentence or two?
    • Done.-G
  • "the Qing empire was in social and political turmoil" caused by what?
    • Various things; expanded a little.-G
  • "three northeastern Provinces" why are Provinces capitalised here, but later in the sentence they are not?
    • Error, fixed.-G
  • "In June 1905, prominent imperial officials Yuan Shikai, Zhang Zhidong, and Zhou Fu jointly submitted a call for the creation of a constitutional monarchy.[6]" did they achieve anything?
    • Source doesn't say, so I assume nothing directly, just part of the general process towards the imperial government pursuing this. I can remove it if you think it's unnecessary.-G
  • "western-style" should western be capitalised as Western?
    • "western systems" same here.
    • "western-style elections" same here.
      • Fixed.-G
  • what is fengjian?
    • This has a footnote which explains it.-G
  • "National Assembly" is wikilinked several times throughout the article. In its first mention, it is written in lowercase, as "national assembly", while in the next section, it is written as "National Assembly".
    • Fixed.-

That's it from me. Very interesting and well written article IMO. Good job, G! Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 13:58, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

BorgQueen

[edit]
  • The Qing government reduced the frequency of the imperial exams and began to promote a western-style education system; when this met resistance by local gentry, the examination system was abolished entirely in 1905. "entirely" is probably unnecessary here. BorgQueen (talk) 09:21, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    • Fixed this.-G
  • To be eligible to vote or run, citizens were required to have either taught at above the primary level for at least three years, graduated from a secondary school, previously held the imperial examination rank of gongsheng (貢生), held a post at or above the seventh rank of the civil service or the fifth rank of the military, or wealth (either through a business or land holdings) exceeding 5,000 yuan. What did the threshold of 5,000 yuan represent in practice? A modern currency conversion would probably be misleading, but some historical context (for example, how it compared with a civil servant's salary) would help the lay reader understand how restrictive it was. BorgQueen (talk) 09:30, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    • So this is a complicated question because there's a lot of tricky conversions to do between yuan and tael, and the late Qing dynasty saw a lot of inflation... but I was able to find a figure of the GDP per capita of China in 1912, which was 52.2 yuan. I added a footnote. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 07:44, 16 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
      • @Generalissima Thanks, that helps. Another point: […] opium users, police officers, students, priests, and those with family members in disreputable careers were barred from voting or standing as candidates. Women were additionally barred from voting. This paragraph builds up a list of requirements, and then the final sentence abruptly reveals that women were excluded entirely. That can make the reader feel as though the previous discussion applied universally, only to realize that it wasn't the case. Why not make it clear from the outset that the it was male-only? Something along the lines of: Both voters and elector candidates were subject to the same set of requirements, beyond a minimum age of 25 for voters and 30 for electors. Eligible male citizens were required to […]
      BorgQueen (talk) 15:16, 16 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
      @BorgQueen: I moved it to the front, but I found it helpful to explicitly state that only men were allowed, since otherwise it could be implied that women had a different set of eligibility requirements. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 10:26, 23 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
      @Generalissima Sounds good to me. BorgQueen (talk) 13:27, 23 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:1909_Chinese_provincial_election_map_colored.svg: suggest clarifying in the caption what the different colours represent - the current caption mentions two cases but there are three colours
  • File:梁启超在日本期间.jpg: where was this first published?
    • Can't find anywhere it was published, but it turns out this was taken while he was in Japan, so it falls under the more lenient Japanese copyright for old photos.
  • File:Nanjinglinshicanyiyuan2.jpg: source link is dead, needs a US tag and author date of death
    • Couldn't find a source or equivalent photo; removed.-G

Joko2468: sourcing review

[edit]

The article makes use of a number of books and journal articles that specialise in the period of constitutionalism, as well as Chang (2011) which explicitly focuses on the subject itself. It has evidently been well-researched. Joko2468 (talk) 19:49, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

  • Yan & Leung (2020: p.20) seems significant vis-a-vis the legacy of the provincial boards and the source might be used to flesh out the narrative up to the revolution (I think you can just Ctrl + F for "provinc"). I think the parliamentary elections should probably be briefly covered in the lede-- the source seems to present them as being closely related. Please correct me if something has gone over my head here.
    • I was actually able to, through that, find a source I had overlooked which they cite (Fincher 1981), which I implemented to cover the provincial assemblies. Thank you for that! Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 00:59, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Citations spot check
[edit]

The article doesn't appear to have gone through a spot check at GA so I'll do a full one. I'll make my way through this incrementally and add any further general comments above. This table lists 20 random passages from throughout the article (44.4% of 45 total passages). These passages contain 27 inline citations (39.1% of 69 in the article). Generated with the Veracity user script. Joko2468 (talk) 19:49, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

  • 5: I'm not too familiar with the terminology here but are you sure constitutional monarchy is supported?
    • Constitutional monarchy can refer to a wide range of systems. The kind they were advocating for is sometimes called a "semi-constitutional monarchy". For instance, the UAE and Morocco are constitutional monarchies, although the monarch very much have power.
      • I think ideally this should be "constitutional government" since the page doesn't mention monarchy but I'm satisfied with the explanation.
        • Reworded.-G
  • 6: the prose appears to imply that this began in 1905 (as much as the Emperor's views had shifted earlier) when the source has this at 1901.
    • Was kinda out of order chronologically there; rearranged.
      • I think this still implies that the administrative reforms began in 1905-- I would personally move the 1905 sentence to the end of the paragraph and put something like "Beginning in 1901," (p. 391) at the start of Administrative, bureaucratic, and judicial reforms...
        • Done.-G
  • 13b: could you provide the quote for this? You don't have to answer but, out of curiosity, how did you get access to it? This appears to all be supported by Min (1989)-- Ichiko (1980) seems to be redundant.
    • I figured extra sources are good to have if they confirm the same things. I actually used to attend the university Thompson teaches at, and just asked to see the thesis. I no longer have access to it.
      • I think WP:CITETRIM would suggest that these be dropped (especially since the thesis is largely unverifiable) but I'll leave it to your discretion; it's not going to preclude a support.
        • Removed one of the Thompson 1985 cites.-G
  • 28: I think you can drop p. 148?
    • Okay, dropped.-G
  • 34: pp. 154-155 don't seem to be relevant.
    The article has passed the citations spot check-- just the first comment above that needs a response. Joko2468 (talk) 18:30, 16 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Reference # Letter Source Archive Status Notes
Since the Song dynasty (960–1279), positions within the Imperial Chinese bureaucracy and civil governance were filled through the imperial examination system, merging the educational and political systems.
1 Hill 2013, pp. 215–216. Good
In June 1905, prominent imperial officials Yuan Shikai, Zhang Zhidong, and Zhou Fu jointly submitted a call for the creation of a constitutional monarchy.
5 Min 1989, p. 141. ⏳
Administrative, bureaucratic, and judicial reforms were the first major focus; redundant and archaic offices were abolished, the functions of the Six Boards were transferred to a new set of civil ministries, and the three northeastern Provinces were integrated into the administrative framework of the other provinces.
6 Ichiko 1980, pp. 389–395. Good
Proposals for local and provincial assemblies were raised following the end of the Hundred Days' Reform. In the first few years of the 1900s, reformist and revolutionary thinkers such as Sun Yat-sen, Ho Kai, and Kang Youwei began to advocate for the creation of such assemblies, citing both western systems of local governance and the traditional principle of fengjian.
8 Min 1989, pp. 138–139. Good
in preparation for the establishment of a national assembly (資政院; Zīzhèngyuàn) and proper provincial legislatures.
13 b Thompson 1985, p. 293. ⏳
14 Min 1989, pp. 150–153. Good
15 Ichiko 1980, p. 398. ⏳
Following this, various provinces (including Jiangsu, Guangdong, Guangxi, and Fengtian) created unelected provincial assemblies with appointees from the local gentry.
16 Min 1989, p. 154. Good
Women were additionally barred from voting.
21 Chang 1984, p. 6. Good
Officials were often forced to give concessions to local gentry — in the form of leadership positions within the preparatory offices — in order to guarantee cooperation.
22 b Min 1989, pp. 155–156. Good
Cartoon of a candidate offering a meal to voters in Jiangsu, from the Shanghai Shibao
27 Hill 2019, pp. 96–99. Good
The public was generally apathetic towards the elections. Only one voting station existed in each electoral district, often many miles apart. Citizens who were eligible through their wealth were often hesitant to give their property value to register, fearing that they would come under target from tax collectors. Preparatory office officials made an effort to emphasis that the voter census would not be a precursor to new taxation.
28 Chang 1968, pp. 147–148. Good
29 Hill 2019, pp. 85–86. Good
As the infant Xuantong Emperor had ascended to the throne after voter registration had begun, many registered voters were listed with names violating the new name taboo; in southern Jiangsu, those who could not be contacted to change their names in time had their names changed by the election preparatory office.
19 b Hill 2019, p. 85. Good
In most provinces, turnout was low even among the eligible population. Out of 21,073 registered voters in Shuntian Prefecture (containing Beijing), only a little over 1,500 votes were cast. Somewhere between 40–70% of eligible voters in Jiangsu participated; in Fujian, turnout was as high as 40% in the cities, while ranging from 10–20% in the rural countryside.
30 b Cameron 1963, p. 122. Good
33 Min 1989, p. 157. Good
Members of the provincial assemblies were largely scholar-gentry, especially those with advanced degrees. Out of a set of five assemblies with known member compositions, a slight majority of members were higher-ranking gentry, with only about 10% from non-gentry backgrounds. A small but prominent percentage of members had studied outside of China‚ mainly in Japan; Japanese-educated members were most numerous in the Sichuan assembly.
34 a Chang 1968, pp. 149–155. Good
35 Cameron 1963, p. 123. Good
The vast majority of members elected were constitutionalists. Although they formed a broad opposition bloc to revolutionary groups such as the Tongmenghui, they were not a unified faction; the Shandong and Guizhou assemblies quickly fell into factional conflict between conservative and progressive wings. Many of the progressive constitutionalists were younger and had studied abroad.
37 Chang 1984, pp. 18–19. Good
The provincial assemblies convened on 14 October 1909.
41 Min 1989, p. 137. Good
In 1910, the provincial assemblies elected half of the members of the National Assembly, similarly an advisory council, with the other half of the assembly appointed by the imperial court.
47 Bartlett 2009, p. 132. Good
The new provincial assemblies were dismantled under Yuan Shikai's regime and dissolved by the Beiyang government. Further provincial elections, fraudulently controlled by the Anfu Club, were held in 1918.
49 Chang 1984, pp. 4, 26. Good
Jiangxi, Henan, and Yunnan figures are estimates by Min Tu-ki
39 b Min 1989, p. 178. Good WP:AGF that these have been calculated accurately.
Based off the 1910 Chinese census, statistician Walter F. Willcox estimated that Henan had 20,977,000 people. Combined with Min's estimates, this would mean that 0.43% of the population voted.
39 d Min 1989, p. 178. Good ditto
40 b Willcox 1928, p. 28. Good
Based off the 1910 Chinese census, statistician Walter F. Willcox estimated that Yunnan had 7,076,000 people. Combined with Min's estimates, this would mean that 0.66% of the population voted.
39 e Min 1989, p. 178. Good ditto
40 c Willcox 1928, p. 28. Good

Kisseran

[edit]

Needless to say, this is a well-written article. I shall do a prose review as requested:

Lead
[edit]
  • "Following a lengthy period ... in the aftermath ..." are two phrases that roughly mean the same thing and should be merged into something like "Following a lengthy period of political turmoil including the failure of the 1898 Hundred Days' Reform and the 1900 Boxer Rebellion..." or something like that.
    • Fixed.-G
  • "valuable initial step" → "first step"
    • Fixed.-G
  • "approved the creation of provincial assemblies in 1907" — did the approval take place in 1907, or did the approved creation take place in 1907, or both?
    • The former, rephrased.-G
  • "constitutionalists, who"
    • Fixed.-G
  • "Tongmenghui revolutionary organization" → "revolutionary organization Tongmenghui"
    • Fixed.-G
  • "although firm numbers are unknown" → "although their exact numbers are unknown"
    • Fixed.-G
  • "the 1911 Revolution saw the collapse of the dynasty and the creation of the Republic of China" → "the Qing dynasty collapsed in the 1911 Revolution and was replaced by the Republic of China"
    • Fixed.-G
Background
[edit]
  • "Imperial Chinese" — is Imperial part of the proper name?
    • No, fixed.-G
  • "bureaucracy and civil governance" — unless there's a substantive difference I'm missing
    • Fixed.-G
  • "where scholars who passed varying levels of state-run examinations were appointed to positions" — It might just be me but this feels redundant; perhaps rephrase the entire sentence along the lines of "scholars entered the imperial Chinese bureaucracy through the state-run imperial examination system", but I'm not sure.
    • Rephrased.-G
  • "the late 1800s" → "the late 19th century" — to avoid confusion with the decade
    • Fixed.-G
  • "in the Russo-Japanese War"
    • Fixed.-G
  • "the first major focus" → "the first major targets for reform"
    • Fixed.-G
  • "attended to" — not sure what the intended meaning here is; perhaps "intended to"?
    • Yes, my bad.-G
  • "elections began to be pursued by the central government" — "the central government began to pursue elections"
    • Fixed.-G
  • "advocate for the establishment of"
    • Fixed.-G
  • "towards the creation of
    • Fixed.-G
  • "A 1906 state committee headed by Prince Zaifeng recommended the adoption of a constitution and national legislature, prompting Cixi to issue an edict in support." → "Upon the recommendation of a 1906 state committee headed by Prince Zaifeng, Cixi issued an edict supporting the adoption of a constitution and national legislature"
    • Fixed.-G
  • "on 19 October,"
    • Fixed.-G
Procedures and preparations
[edit]
  • "established qualifications for candidates and set in place the electoral processes" — are the qualifications for candidates not part of the electoral processes? Or were the rest of the electoral processes already drafted somewhere else, thus being "set in place" to the exclusion of "qualifications for candidates"?
    • Good point, rephrased.-G
  • "previously held the imperial examination rank of gongsheng" — (1) that exact rank? (2) previously as opposed the other requirements? e.g. is the civil service requirement "were required to hold a post at or above the seventh rank of the civil service" or "were required to have held a post at or above the seventh rank of the civil service" as currently written?
    • Rephrased.-G
  • "Women were additionally barred from voting" → "Additionally, women were barred from voting"
    • Rephrased this section on another reviewer's feedback.-G
  • "These regulations excluded the overwhelming majority of the population from voting"
    • Fixed.-G
  • "Although the abolition of the examination system prevented citizens from becoming part of the gentry" → "Although new entries into the gentry class ended with the abolition of the examination system"
    • Fixed.-G
  • "two Jiangsu assemblies were dropped" — condensed into one?
    • Yes, reworded.-G
  • "an assembly for Xinjiang" → "the assembly for Xinjiang"
    • Fixed.-G
Campaign
[edit]
  • "made an effort to emphasis" → "emphasized"
    • Fixed.-G
  • "was also transmitted"
    • Fixed.-G
  • "allowing them to spread to remote regions" → "which were distributed to remote regions"
    • Fixed.-G
  • "The process of registration"
    • Fixed.-G
  • "unqualified" → "ineligible"
    • Fixed.-G
Results
[edit]
  • "Out of a set of" → "Within the"
    • Fixed.-G
Aftermath
[edit]
  • "In 1910, the provincial assemblies elected" — the link points to the 1909 parliamentary election, so which year was it?
    • I think that article is wrong but it's hard to find sources on when the elections took place? The National Assembly did not convene until October 1910 so it seems like it was probably in 1910, but maybe some voting was underway in the assemblies by the end of 1909? The source I use says they were in 1910 at least.-G
  • "compared the 1909 elections to the first Republican elections, due to both having" → "said that both elections had" — (1) surely the comparison was not caused by the mundane similarities (2) it doesn't need to be pointed out explicitly that he was making a comparison when his comparison is quoted immediately afterwards
    • Fixed.-G
  • "dismantled under Yuan Shikai's regime" — to me this is near-perfectly synonymous with "dissolved by the Beiyang government", so perhaps some clarification is due in place of deletion.
    • You're right, fixed.-G

Kisseran (talk) 08:16, 23 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Bibliography check
[edit]

Not checking the source content, just the bibliographic information in the article:

  • Chang 1968 is missing page numbers.
  • Ichiko 1980 is missing page numbers.
  • Murthy 2008 is missing page numbers.
  • Xiao-Planes 2012 is missing editors.
    • Fixed all these.-G

Kisseran (talk) 08:50, 23 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Support from PMC

[edit]

Signing on! ♠PMC♠ (talk) 14:11, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Xinjiang elections were postponed due to low rates of Chinese literacy" - this feels oddly phrased. If the citizens were generally illiterate, I'd drop "Chinese" from here. If the citizens were literate in their native script just not in Chinese, I'd maybe say "low rates of literacy in Chinese"
    • Fixed.-G
  • "although it had come under increasing intellectual opposition as corrupt and ineffective during the late 19th century" - suggest rearranging slightly as the current phrasing it implies it was "corrupt and ineffective during the late 19th century". I suspect what you mean is that it had "come under increasing intellectual opposition during the late 19th century as corrupt and ineffective"
    • Fixed.-G
  • " the functions of the Six Boards" - since this is a new concept for the reader, maybe a slight gloss here?
    • Done.-G
  • "Manchu bannermen were also allocated seats." - briefly gloss who these guys are?
    • Done.-G
  • Same comment about Chinese literacy applies for body, and maybe here we have room to slightly expand on why not (footnote maybe?)
    • Done.-G
  • "instead administered under the Lifan Bu" explain also?
    • Done.-G
  • "come under target" slightly odd phrasing. "come under scrutiny" maybe, or "be targeted by", depending on which part you'd prefer to keep
    • Done.-G
  • "many registered voters were listed with names violating the new name taboo" you've gotta explain this one a bit more I think. What's a name taboo? How were they violating it?
    • Done.-G
  • "Votes cast in Ansu, Zhili, were decided by village brawls." I kinda think they were on to something here
  • "Contemporary political and press responses were favorable to the new assemblies; the conservative..." I might split this at the semicolon, it's quite long
    • Done.-G
  • explain/gloss Anfu Club?
    • Done.-G

That's all I got! Great work :) ♠PMC♠ (talk) 17:01, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Check-in

[edit]

@FAC coordinators: May I nominate another article? Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 01:37, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:56, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

True Blue (album)

[edit]
Nominator(s): 750h+ 06:28, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about True Blue, the best-selling studio album by Madonna, and one of the best-selling albums in history. It was the album that sent the singer to superstar status and established her artistic credibility, spawning five worldwide hit singles: "Live to Tell", "Papa Don't Preach", "True Blue", "Open Your Heart", and "La Isla Bonita". If successful this will be my nineteenth FA. Enjoy, and all comments are appreciated :). 750h+ 06:28, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Camilasdandelions

[edit]
  • Nice to see this work nominated for FA. Glad to review it!
Background
  • "American singer and songwriter Madonna released her sophomore album, Like a Virgin, on November 12, 1984." -- Is full date needed? I would just write "in 1984"
  • "that "he [was] almost like my brother"." -- "[her] brother"
  • "Madonna's twenty-seventh birthday on August 16, 1985" -- "1985" is already mentioned, so it is unnecessary
  • "co-starred in the adventure comedy film Shanghai Surprise" (1986) -- MOS:SEAOFBLUE
    • I can't really change the "adventure comedy" part as that's how it should be formatted, but I moved it from being alongside the title
Recording and development
  • With Leonard, the recording process was informal: he would typically develop a musical idea on piano, after which Madonna would "write a lyric, she'd sing it, and the next day we would do another song", often completing one per day. In contrast, Bray focused on "shap[ing] things and [...] creat[ing] arrangements to show off the song[s] better". -- It is unclear who wrote/spoke these direct quotes (attribute)
  • "he would typically develop" -- why not just "he typically developed"
  • "and the next day we would do another song" -> "and the next day [they] would do another song"
  • "The ballad "Live to Tell"" -- same as before, ballad or sentimental ballad?
  • "The singer expressed immediate interest and acquired the song." -- who is "the singer"? Madonna or Elliot?
  • "Madonna was drawn to the track as it aligned with her "personal zeitgeist of standing up to male authorities"." -- attribute?
  • "although it was recorded, it was ultimately excluded from the final track list.[35] It was later included on her first remix album, You Can Dance (1987). -- avoid repetition
Songs
  • Add |type=music there
  • "Songwriter Brian Elliot stated that" -- just "Elliot" since he was mentioned multiple times
  • "is a pop ballad" -- wikilink pop ballad entirely
    • relinks to "sentimental ballad", so that'd be a WP:DUPLINK
  • "that includes keyboards, synthesizers, electric guitar" -- wikilink synthesizer here and unlink "synthesizer bass" below
  • "of the Dixie Cups' "Chapel of Love"" -- "of the Dixie Cups's "Chapel of Love""
    • the previous one is correct
      • I guess "the Dixie Cups" is a name, thus it should be treated as singular noun. No? Camilasdandelions (✉️) 07:53, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
        • possessives are determined by the name's form not by whether the entity is singular or plural. "Dixie Cups" ends in the plural noun Cups. The standard possessive of a regular plural noun ending in "s" is to add an apostrophe
  • "is a Latin pop dance ballad with" -- unlink ballad
Artwork and release
  • You'd better add "(pictured)" since I'm confused who he is, Lucy O'Brien or Andy Warhol?
  • "Biographer Lucy O'Brien described" / "In April 1986, Billboard reported" / "and Warner Bros. Records" -- unlink them since overlink
Singles
  • single, lead single, music video -- those terms are regarded as an overlink among music editors
  • ""Live to Tell" was described by several" -- why not "The song"?
Initial reviews
  • "Billboard opined" -- unlink
Track listing
Personnel
  • "Credits adapted from the album's liner notes." -- "Credits were (or are) adapted from the liner notes."
Charts
Certifications and sales
Additional
[edit]
  • "Although it was recorded, the song was ultimately excluded from the final track list.[35] "Spotlight" was later included on her first remix album, You Can Dance (1987)." -- you can trim it to: "Although recorded, it was ultimately excluded from the final track list,[35] while later included on her first remix album, You Can Dance (1987)."
  • All lowercase: "Extended Remix", "Extended Version", "Mix", "Remix", "Remix/Edit", "Instrumental" in Track listing section
  • @750h+: That's all I see. Very nice work! Comments and replies above. Camilasdandelions (✉️) 07:53, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    Done. Responded to comments! 750h+ 08:23, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    Thx, it was easy. Best luck with your FAC! Camilasdandelions (✉️) 11:29, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

MSincccc

[edit]
Background
  • "Eventually, it sold over 21 million copies globally" → "It has sold over 21 million copies worldwide"
  • "After Madonna met actor Sean Penn on the set of the music video for 'Material Girl', the two began dating in February 1985." → "After meeting actor Sean Penn on the set of the music video for 'Material Girl', the two began dating in February 1985."
  • "Following the tour's conclusion, Madonna asked Leonard" → "Following the tour, Madonna asked Leonard"
Recording and development
  • "former boyfriend, Bray, whom she had worked with..." → "former boyfriend Bray, with whom she had worked..."
  • "excluded from True Blue’s final track list" → "final track listing"
    • The current's fine i think

Also, could we add the relevant language template to the mainspace?

MSincccc (talk) 13:43, 14 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@MSincccc: thanks for the comments, looking forward to any followups. 750h+ 06:35, 15 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@MSincccc: any updates? no rush. 750h+ 08:43, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@750h+ I'm planning to wrap up my review this week. I may add a few further comments later today if time permits. MSincccc (talk) 08:46, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, thank you. No rush of course, the nomination isn't old. 750h+ 08:53, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Composition
  • "songs that take influences from"

→ "songs that take influence from"

MSincccc (talk) 09:17, 22 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Promotion
  • "second highest-grossing tour" → "second-highest-grossing tour"
    • both are fine, but i prefer the current
  • "eventually peaked at number four in its sixth week" → "peaked at number four in its sixth week"
Critical reception
  • "Madonna's maturity as a vocalist, producer, and songwriter was particularly acclaimed among reviewers." → "Madonna's maturity as a vocalist, producer, and songwriter was particularly acclaimed."
  • "He ended his review with the comment:" → "He concluded:"
  • "were also critical in their reviews" → "were also critical"
  • "Editing for the magazine PopMatters" → "Writing for PopMatters"

"Mary Von Aue stated in Stereogum that the album experiments" → "Mary Von Aue of Stereogum wrote that the album experiments"

  • "tracks such as 'Live to Tell' and 'Papa Don't Preach' suggested" → "tracks such as 'Live to Tell' and 'Papa Don't Preach' suggest"
    • I think the current works slightly better.

MSincccc (talk) 14:27, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@MSincccc: much thanks for the comments, all done (unless i left a comment). 750h+ 02:35, 27 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Comment

[edit]
  • Comment – The Main article hatnote in the Touring section is unnecessary and incongruous: the target article Who's That Girl World Tour is already linked, perfectly naturally, within the first few words of the following line, and the title of the section itself refers to touring in general, rather than specifically to the Who's That Girl tour. --Deeday-UK (talk) 20:07, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Hurricanehink

[edit]

As a musician (and with an FAC of my own ongoing), I figured I should review.

Lead
  • "Madonna assumed greater control over the creative direction of True Blue, attempting to establish herself as a more serious artist and to appeal to a broader, more mature audience." - there should be some passing mention of the previous albums, so the "more serious" and "more mature" have comparisons. It's merely implied by it being the third album.
  • "25 million" - this and all other numbers in the article need a non-breaking space  
Recording and development
  • "Madonna collaborated separately with Leonard and Bray, with all three working together collectively on only one occasion." - what occasion?
Composition
  • Madonna's earlier recordings featured a bright, high-pitched vocal style that critics likened to "Minnie Mouse on helium". - love this, but who said the quote? All quotes must be attributed
  • Lyrically, "La Isla Bonita" portrays Madonna as a "humble observer" - is the humble observer mentioned in the song lyrically? Or is this quote a description of the song?
  • Love, romance, commitment, and fidelity constitute the album's main themes.[42][14][51] - can you make sure that all refs are in order, both here and throughout the article?
  • I notice there's nothing about Madonna's vocal range in any of the songs. I don't know if that's just not a factor in any of them, but other than "Minnie Mouse on helium", I wondered what the new sound was, from a music composition point of view. Or maybe it's in the article and I'm missing it.
    • Most sources speak about her vocal maturity, which is already mentioned. This talks about her using a "throatier, fuller instrument", and this one speaks about her using her "best vocals" and a "full flow" voice. I don't think including vocal range for each song is very optimal, or a normal thing to do in album articles, unless I misinterpreted something you said.
Artwork and release
  • "It depicts the singer in profile" - is "profile" a photography term (that perhaps should be linked)?
  • "platinum blonde shade" - not to throw shade, but shouldn't "platinum-blonde" be hyphenated?
    • I don't believe so
  • "Joe Lynch of Billboard deemed the cover as among the greatest album artworks." - perhaps specify the 100 greatest album artworks of all time, as of (XXXX year)?
  • "It was the first release from Madonna's "Silver Collection" reissue series" - is there a link to this Silver Collection?
    • Doesn't look like it
Promotion
  • "it also supported her soundtrack album Who's That Girl (1987)." - I only found out at this point in the article that Madonna was in another box office failure, other than Shanghai Surprise. That should be mentioned.
    • Who's That Girl was a year after True Blue was released, and doesn't really have anything to do with the album. Shanghai Surprise has some relevance to the article as both Penn and Madonna starred in it. I don't particularly know where I'd mention Who's That Girl.
  • Her performance of "Papa Don't Preach" was Madonna's first conflict with the Vatican, as she dedicated the song to Pope John Paul II, who encouraged Italian audiences to boycott the concerts. - iconic. No notes.
  • "With a total gross revenue of US$25 million" - should mention that it's in either 1987 USD, or unadjusted for inflation (like in a note).
  • Reviewers rank the song highly amongst Madonna's other songs. - other songs? What's "other" about it?
    • It's ranked high when reviewers put it against Madonna's songs
  • "La Isla Bonita" was released as True Blue's fifth and final single on February 25, 1987.[156] Critics liked the Latin-influenced sound of the song. - wasn't Madonna also criticized for appropriation?
    • The music video, which I've added
  • composer Rikky Rooksby opined that it was "marginally more interesting" than the song. - faint praise, or a jaded composer who wanted Michael Jackson to perform the song? Don't worry I'm just trying to read into the behind-the-scenes gossip that might've happened.
    • praise

All in all, it was a good and entertaining read. Lemme know if you have questions about my review. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:34, 14 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@Hurricanehink: Thanks for the comments, i've left some responses above if you'd like to respond to those. 750h+ 13:34, 15 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Firefly (Honkai: Star Rail)

[edit]
Nominator(s): Gommeh (talk 🎮 sign) 15:27, 8 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Firefly, a character from the 2023 video game Honkai: Star Rail published by miHoYo. She is a member of the in-game fictional organization known as the Stellaron Hunters, and operates a mech called SAM. She is seemingly killed three times in the game's story, but is revealed to ultimately be alive at the end. She was generally receive positively by critics and players, including myself. I translated the article over from the Chinese Wikipedia earlier this year and got it to GA in March. After that, I submitted the article to DYK, where a fact from it appeared on April 5 of this year. Firefly is one of my favorite characters in the game, and successfully getting this to FA would be my first Four Award (I am considering myself the creator of the article on English Wikipedia, since I translated the majority of the content into English and brought the article over into mainspace - diff; for transparency, it was previously a draft by another user - diff.) Pinging @Nahida (the draft's creator), @Tomobe03 (the GA reviewer), @Lflin16 (the person who approved the article's hook at DYK). Also pinging @GrandCeres and SuperGrey, both of whom did a significant amount of work on the Chinese version of the article. Gommeh (talk 🎮 sign) 15:27, 8 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Icepinner

[edit]

Staking out a spot here. I don't have any experience with Honkai Rail, so this will be interesting. Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 17:10, 8 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

In terms of gameplay it's not too dissimilar to Genshin, except that HSR is not an open-world game so exploration is more limited. Several gameplay terms are different between the two though (e.g. Archon Quests vs Trailblaze Missions both refer to segments of the main storyline), so if you need help with anything let me know. Gommeh (talk 🎮 sign) 17:50, 8 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Creation and design
[edit]

Terribly sorry, I completely forgot about this review. I'll add more comments within the next couple of days. Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 04:19, 15 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Appearances
[edit]
Story
[edit]
Character gameplay
[edit]
Promotion and reception
[edit]

I think that's it. Not many issues, so I'll leave you to it. Ping me when you've finished addressing my comments. Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 17:42, 17 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

These are both done. Pinging @Icepinner per your request. In solidarity, Gommeh (talk 🎮 sign) 17:57, 17 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! I support this nomination. Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 16:23, 18 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from ZooBlazer

[edit]

Reserving a spot. I'll hopefully have comments later today or tomorrow at the latest. -- ZooBlazer 17:46, 8 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

  • Entropy Loss Syndrome which causes a gradual physical and mental dissociation — There should be a comma before "which"
    • Done.
  • can switch between her normal human form and said mechanical form in-game — "said mechanical form" reads a bit weird. Maybe change it to something like "and her mechanical form in-game" or something along those lines.
    • Done.
  • and burst into tears later —> "and was moved to tears"
    • Done.
  • The Stellaron Hunters are a group which walks the Path of the Finality — Change "which" to "that" or "who walk"
    • Done.
  • after they did so — Change to "after they do so" or "afterward" since this is a tense shift
    • Done.
  • confesses that she is a stowaway and told the Trailblazer — Another tense shift. Change "told" to "tells"
    • Done.
  • senses that Firefly had re-entered the Dreamscape — Change "had re-entered" to "has re-entered"
    • Done.
  • After the Trailblazer awakened from the shared dream, they are unable to find Firefly — Change "awakened" to "awakens" since plot info should be present tense.
    • Done.
  • appears in her SAM form to rescue them and revealed her true identity — Change "revealed" to "reveals"
    • Done.
  • This ideological divide leads to a decisive battle which ended in the Trailblazer's group being defeated — Change "ended" to "ends"
    • Done.
  • Firefly returns to reality by committing suicide within said dream. — "said dream" is clunky. Using just "the dream" or "that dream" would probably be fine.
    • Done.
  • uses SAM to carry it high into the sky and detonated it, only for the "bombs" to be fireworks instead — Change "detonated" to "detonates".
    • Also, "carry it" uses a singular pronoun but refers to the plural "bombs" mentioned earlier in the sentence, so it should be "carry them"
    • Both done.
  • ...who reveals that she erased and altered parts of their memory at the Stellaron Hunters' request, fearing it would have drawn the Destruction's attention... — It is slightly ambiguous who is doing the "fearing" here: Constance or the Stellaron Hunters.
    • Clarified.
  • With regards to her character trailer, Guan observed that —> "With regard to"
    • Done.
  • Hao Zheng of the Universitat Pompeu Fabra in Barcelona analyzed Firefly and Acheron in a master's thesis. — Just a side note: per WP:SCHOLARSHIP, master's theses are generally considered unreliable unless they have a significant scholarly impact or are published by a reputable imprint. Just make sure that is the case or remove it before a source review is done.
    • I have commented this out for the time being and may decide to delete the comment after some more thought.
  • When the narrative returns to the secret base where they took the photo, she found herself moved to tears. — "She" could momentarily be confused with Firefly, though it refers to the reviewer, Yan Ku. Maybe clarify as "Ku found herself".
    • Done.
  • Marco Wutz of Sports Illustrated added that if Firefly is connected to Sam, that it was possible that her "death" may have been part of the "script" — Remove the second "that"
    • Done.

Overall the article looks to be in good shape. -- ZooBlazer 00:53, 9 July 2026 (UTC).[reply]

I would have responded earlier, but I was expecting a ping so I assumed you just hadn't gotten to the comments yet. Happy with the changes though, so I support. -- ZooBlazer 17:57, 13 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Kung Fu Man

[edit]
  • Going over the sourcing, I see the thesis "Analysis of Female Character Design in Honkai: Star Rail" cited. A quick search on Google Scholar shows it hasn't been cited, and I can't find any credentials for the author to indicate any expertise in their field. This creates a problem because it's carrying a whole paragraph of the character's reception, but per WP:THESIS it does not appear to be a reliable source.
    • See above.
  • Reference 5 (Mr. Sun) needs a tweak; it's in Taiwanese Chinese
    • Not sure what change you want me to make here, can you explain? The "language" parameter is set to "zh-Hant-TW"
      • Looks like that defaults to Chinese for some reason. I set it to "zh-TW" so it shows up properly.
  • Reference 8 (Animated Short: The Embers of Glamoth) has a postscript error. A quote tag may be more appropriate here if you're citing the description?
    • Done.
  • Moving onto structure, generally single-paragraph sections/subsections are seen as best avoided per past consensus. Would probably be better to at least combined the Promotion and Reception sections together, as there's not enough promotion/collaboration material to justify its own subsection. Barring that, you could put it under appearances also (see Raichu).
    • Merged the two sections.
  • I do have some qualms about the detailing of her story content, as I feel it could be paired down and some of it veers a bit too close to in-universe. A big thing to consider with these articles are they need to be written for those as unaware of the source material as possible, even from a non-gamer angle. Like for example, what does "Firefly is a 5-star Fire type" mean, and is it is really significant enough to note in the context of the article? Those are things to consider, but I'll dig into that harder after the sourcing points are addressed.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 08:13, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm considering rewriting the appearances section to this; hopefully it should be a little clearer to non-HSR players. It's still long though, let me know if it should be slimmed down further. I've also already reworded the gameplay section to be a little clearer. In solidarity, Gommeh (talk 🎮 sign) 13:46, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    @Kung Fu Man, thoughts on the rewrite I did at the link above? In solidarity, Gommeh (talk 🎮 sign) 20:06, 11 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    @Gommeh: I do feel that's a lot better. I would strongly encourage too avoiding efns where possible. While some editors prefer them, they result in stutter-stepping the text, and stuff like Amphoreus can be explained cleanly by just saying "simulated world" (knowing what it's inspired by and how it went boom in this context doesn't add anything to the reader).
  • Okay, now I'm going to go a bit really hard on this. This is not meant to discourage you in any way, I'm just going off standards I've experienced in FACs that I feel need to be reflected here. So let's begin:
    • Images should have alt text.
    • The image of SAM needs a stronger caption; the reader should without having to look at the body be able to immediately understand what they're looking at. Explain SAM briefly, and with reference mention anything like reception or whatnot that can help illustrate the importance of what they're looking at. The reader will usually gravitate towards images immediately, so context is important.
      • Added a stronger caption, let me know if it still needs work.
    • The images themselves need additional information on their licensing info. Look at File:Raichu.png for some insight here, mimicking the wording should suffice where possible but basically you want to be thorough at this level of article.
      • Done; however, even after looking at the photo you linked I'm not entirely sure if what I did is enough. Please let me know.
    • Add alias=SAM to the infobox
      • Done.
    • Unless it is fundamentally important to help the reader understand the article, avoid cross-wiki linking like you are with the VAs. This creates an odd redlink in the article, and I don't feel the VAs are important enough to do so.
      • Removed.
    • What are the importance of Paths? What's the importance of the elemental Type? Think like with Pokemon articles, how we explain why it's important to know Typing.
      • Added a bit about Paths; still working out how best to incorporate elemental type and how to explain it. I'll adjust that when I've got that figured out.
    • In the body, it's called the Republic of Glamoth. Should the infobox reflect this full title?
      • Yes, done.
    • At the time of writing this, References 1, 11, and 12 are primary sources. These should be replaced with secondary sources if at all possible. Even if it's something where you're referencing a game guide, it's seen as preferable to the primary source. If you absolutely have to, there needs to be additional context in the citation: year of game release, platform, quote, link to the game in question (yes, even if we already do in the body) and in this case accessdate. Keep in mind that on the surface these look like incomplete book references, and that will REALLY confuse a reader.
    • The second to last paragraph of reception can be combined after the last paragraph of that section for easier flow.
      • Done.
  • Once these are addressed, I'll do a deeper look at the prose and any other underlying issues.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 13:39, 17 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Nikkimaria

[edit]

Image review

  • Given that the characters are non-free, why are the cosplay images believed to be free? Nikkimaria (talk) 19:23, 11 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    • According to my understanding, that's up to the photographer to decide since they own the copyright to the actual photo. I believe that in the event that this is not free use, it may be a licensed use regardless per miHoYo's fan creations guidelines for Honkai: Star Rail. That said, I'm on the fence regarding this photo's useability for FAC, but I've never had problems using pictures like this at lower levels, including at GA. In solidarity, Gommeh (talk 🎮 sign) 20:05, 11 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
      • The photographer owns the copyright to the photo itself, but if they've photographed something that is non-free, that copyright also matters. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:15, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
        • From how I understand it from this on Commons (specifically the wikimedia lawyer discussion in the Spiderman image further down the page), as the focus is on the cosplayer in costume and not the costume itself or using it to represent the character, there is no copyright violation in using it this way.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 03:21, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
          • Er... it's being used in an article on the character; why would it not be considered to be representing the character? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:24, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
            • Because the context matters; Gommeh is not citing the image to show "this is what the character looks like" or "this is what a Firefly costume looks like", but "this is an example of cosplayers dressed up as the character", which per Mike's email, is acceptable.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 03:30, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
              • I don't think that's consistent with the primary email in that section, but either way, if that's all the images are intended to do, why are they needed at all? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:18, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
                • The article does mention cosplay, but it is more in passing and doesn't appear to be a significant factor for the character. There is some consensus that if cosplay isn't mentioned including such images tends to be seen as decorative per past discussions on WT:VG, but not a concrete agreed upon threshold of when to include such images (in fact there's a discussion about it right now at the VG Character task force trying to iron that out). Is there a precedent to not include free use images in an article where possible, as long as they don't disrupt the article's flow and are at least relevant?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 13:29, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
                  Not sure what you mean by 'precedent' - most articles, including this one, have relevant free images available that are not included. For example, there are free images available for miHoYo, Tomori Kusunoki, Japan Railways, Bandai Spirits, Good Smile, and more - all relevant here, none pictured. So why these images? Nikkimaria (talk) 23:38, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
                I agree with KFM here; plus, having an image of someone cosplaying as her shows (in my opinion anyway) that someone likes her enough that they took the time to get all the materials together and dress up as her. I think it shows the fanbase's passion in a way words can't exactly describe. In solidarity, Gommeh (talk 🎮 sign) 00:41, 14 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Poor-quality external link should be removed. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:49, 18 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    Not done, as I don't think it is poor quality. There are already Fandom ELs in FAs (Genshin Impact, Raichu, etc.) with zero issues - this leads me to believe having links to those is not seen by the community as an issue in regards to FACs. I see no reason why this definitely needs to be removed; it's quite honestly very subjective. Additionally, there was consensus a few months ago at WP:ELN that explicitly allowed these links (discussion). While that discussion focused substantially on the issue of copyvios, it did not conclude that the links were otherwise inappropriate or should be removed. In short I can find no policy- or guideline-based reason sufficient enough to remove this. In solidarity, Gommeh (talk 🎮 sign) 02:46, 18 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • An opinion that it is allowed is not the same as consensus that it is beneficial. I don't see any evidence that it is of good quality. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:56, 18 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    What specific quality concerns do you have with the HSR wiki? It is frequently updated and contains substantial, actively-maintained supplementary material (e.g. quest dialogue archives), so it would be helpful to know what your exact concern is. Simply arguing "poor quality" isn't very convincing on its own. In solidarity, Gommeh (talk 🎮 sign) 03:15, 18 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    It's user-generated and not encyclopedic in nature. What do you mean by "quest dialogue archives"? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:26, 18 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    They copy and paste the quest dialogues word for word from the game - they're very thorough! No idea how they do it, having never done it myself, but I've personally verified the accuracy on numerous occasions while playing. At any rate, it's common practice to include links to Fandom on articles on fictional characters anyway (even at FA level; see for example Raichu), and considering the sheer number of them I think this would require some sort of consensus over at Wikipedia:WikiProject Fictional characters, not here. Honestly, I think that if there was consensus against Fandom's usability, then either the {{Fandom content}} template would have been deleted and/or there'd be a WPVG-wide policy/guideline against it in an EL section by now. Just out of curiosity, is your concern with Fandom in general or with the HSR wiki specifically? In solidarity, Gommeh (talk 🎮 sign) 04:42, 18 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, given what you've just described about copying and pasting, we really can't link this, other issues aside. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:49, 18 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually, yes we can. See section 1 of the game's TOS: Users can freely re-create publicly published contents from the Honkai: Star Rail series in forms including, but not limited to, text, images, videos, and physical objects. In other words, this is a licensed use from the company, and not a copyvio. In solidarity, Gommeh (talk 🎮 sign) 05:05, 18 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    Only if the other terms outlined on that page are met, and they are not. See section III. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:40, 18 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    As we discussed on the EL noticeboard several months ago, the third section deals only with fan-created art (e.g. if I were to draw one of the characters, then it would fall under that). Not seeing any violation here and I don't think Hoyo did either; otherwise they would have taken action against the website and we'd have likely covered it in an article here, since that would definitely generate headlines. I really think it would be best for us to defer to other editors who work more regularly in video games to make a determination on this though. In solidarity, Gommeh (talk 🎮 sign) 00:27, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    The section defines its application as being "non-merchandise content resulting from the user's creation of publicly published content of the Honkai: Star Rail series". While that would cover fan art, it's not limited to that. The fact that the site hasn't been sued is not evidence otherwise. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:48, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    Section 3 is divided into three parts - part 1 does not define what "simple copying" is, so I'm not sure what basis you're basing this off of. If you're talking about part 2, that part is only about videos (this would not apply, since the content in question is not a video). Part 3 is related to event participation so that also does not apply here.
    I don't think we're making much progress relitigating this document ourselves. We've both explained our interpretation of the policy, and I doubt either of us is going to be able to persuade the other. Maybe we should agree to disagree and let other editors weigh in if necessary. In solidarity, Gommeh (talk 🎮 sign) 01:55, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    Sure - removed pending further input. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:12, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    Pinging everyone else who's edited here for their opinions: @Icepinner, ZooBlazer, Kung Fu Man, and RedShellMomentum: your thoughts are appreciated. @Pokelego999: you previously took a video game article with a similar Fandom external link through FAC, so feel free to give your thoughts as well if you wish. In solidarity, Gommeh (talk 🎮 sign) 02:32, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    @Gommeh In regards to my past FACs, I took two TV character articles to FAC, not video game ones, so I'm not sure how much of this applies here. That said, Ice Warrior contains a link to the external TARDIS wiki (While it is not Fandom, it was formerly a fandom wiki before becoming independent) that passed fine.
    Scrolling up through the discussion, I am a little confused where the issue lies. As Gommeh has spoken ELs are relatively common in articles, including of FA caliber, and particularly for character articles. I have never run into an issue for them and in many reviews I've had the external links have traditionally been considered fine (For example, one of my GANs for Ice Warrior iirc had me remove an obscure fansite as low quality, but was fine with TARDIS Wiki). I'm unaware of any major consensus but I'd have to imagine if they're still being used in articles of such a wide variety without issue I don't see much of an issue myself.
    No further thoughts on anything else regarding this FAC at this time, nor do I have any further opinions regarding ELs. I believe they are fine personally and plenty of FACs have passed fine without them. Glancing at Wikipedia:External links, I believe the fan Wikis tend to tout themselves as falling under fair use, so I believe it should be an alright link under that banner. I believe Wikipedia:OPENWIKI also states other wikis should be fine as an EL so long as they tend to be stable and have a high editor base, which I should imagine Honkai falls under. I believe there's a few other things you could cite but it's been a long day so I'll cut it short there.
    A further issue regarding ELs would have to be a wider discussion than just having a one on one disagreement at an FAC, probably at Wikipedia:ELN or a similar dispute resolution process like those listed at Wikipedia:ELBURDEN.If there is further issue with this I would simply compromise by removing the EL until the FAC is done and passed while discussing this at a separate venue listed above to find a further consensus. I do not believe it is necessary myself, but if there is no further compromise that can be found either via my above arguments or from anyone else who is pinged, I'd suggest that course of action to resolve it without obstructing this FAC. Hopefully this helps resolve matters in some way. Magneton Considerer: Pokelego999 (Talk) (Contribs) 05:12, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - pass

[edit]

Putting myself down for a source review. RedShellMomentum 00:31, 14 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This table lists 2 random passages from throughout the article (4.4% of 45 total passages). These passages contain 2 inline citations (3.6% of 55 in the article). Generated with the Veracity user script. RedShellMomentum 00:31, 14 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@Gommeh: Source review is all good. I've recently opened up a FAC for "Dick in a Box", you may leave comments there if you wish. RedShellMomentum 00:48, 14 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Reference # Letter Source Archive Status Notes
HoYoverse also introduced her signature Light Cone (or weapon), Whereabouts Should Dreams Rest, on that date.
10 hk01.com web.archive.org ✅
Firefly's supposed "death" in the main storyline sparked heated discussions among devastated players.
35 sg.news.yahoo.com ✅

Comments by Z. Patterson

[edit]

Please make sure titles of Honkai Star Rail are italicized. I see some sources listed in the references do not have italic titles for Honkai Star Rail. Z. Patterson (talk) 01:03, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Most of these are already done; the only times where I was unsure whether this should be done was where the game itself was listed in the author fields, as I thought they did not support italics. Turns out they do, so I have added them. In solidarity, Gommeh (talk 🎮 sign) 02:34, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Gommeh: I added italics in citations that did not have them and translated a Japanese-language citation for you in Special:Diff/1365373561, resolved a CS1 maintenance message for you at Special:Diff/1365374517 to remove CS1 messages that appear in the references, and archived links for you at Special:Diff/1365375092. All of these are to keep citation consistency per WP:FACR criterion 2c. Z. Patterson (talk) 00:43, 22 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! I am surprised I missed that many (except for the archiving links, I had planned to do that later when I had the time). In solidarity, Gommeh (talk 🎮 sign) 00:54, 22 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Gommeh: Would you mind replacing the YouTube source for The Embers of Glamoth with the following? Janca, Ben (June 14, 2024). "Honkai: Star Rail | The Embers of Glamoth | Official Animated Short". GameSpot. Archived from the original on June 14, 2024. Z. Patterson (talk) 02:05, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Z. Patterson: Done. In solidarity, Gommeh (talk 🎮 sign) 02:20, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Based on what I find in WP:FACR, I support the nomination. The article appears to use sources about the subject comprehensively; the article appears to be well-researched, neutral, and stable. The citations are now consistent, the lead summarizes the article succinctly, and the table of contents is appropriate for an article of this length. The article is appropriately illustrated and suitable for its length. There is one caveat, and I am wondering if it would be better for the article to say "and through" instead of "as well as via" in the sentence "Players created large amounts of fan art, commissioned illustrations from artists, and produced other fan works to express their affection for her as well as via cosplay." Z. Patterson (talk) 02:48, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Personally I think it's fine as is, as it means the same thing. In solidarity, Gommeh (talk 🎮 sign) 03:32, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I understand. Thank you. Z. Patterson (talk) 05:39, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Algorithmic amplification

[edit]
Nominator(s): Metalicat (talk) 14:35, 8 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this article because I believe it meets the criteria. The article covers how platform ranking and recommendation systems increase the reach of online content, including the underlying mechanisms, evidence on misinformation, political content and young users' mental health, the methods researchers use to study opaque systems and regulatory responses in the EU, UK, US and China.

The article draws on peer-reviewed research, regulatory and legislative sources, court decisions, and high-quality reporting. It treats the scale and direction of algorithmic effects as contested, presenting structural critiques of engagement-driven recommendation alongside experimental findings that user preferences often play a larger role than recommendation algorithms.

The article passed its good article review, conducted by A.Cython, in March 2026. It was peer reviewed in April and May 2026, where comments from RoySmith and Noleander were addressed.

I look forward to reviewers' comments and will respond promptly. Metalicat (talk) 14:35, 8 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

BorgQueen

[edit]
  • MOS:SEEALSO says: Editors should provide a brief annotation when a link's relevance is not immediately apparent, when the meaning of the term may not be generally known, or when the term is ambiguous. I recommend using the template {{Annotated link}} for the link in the See also section, or an annotation could be manually added. BorgQueen (talk) 15:30, 8 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

MSincccc

[edit]
Terminology
History
  • A 2021 overview traced the origins of modern recommendation systems to the early 1990s
  • "which gradually shifted from chronological presentation towards algorithmically ranked content" → "which gradually shifted from chronological presentation to algorithmically ranked content"
    Done. Metalicat (talk) 11:04, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Consider linking "search engines"?
    Done, linked at its first appearance in the body. Metalicat (talk) 11:04, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • "shaping product visibility for large numbers of shoppers" → "shaping product visibility for many shoppers"
    Done. Metalicat (talk) 11:04, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • "rigid categorisation of content" → "rigid categorisation"
    Done.

MSincccc (talk) 07:53, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@MSincccc:Thanks very much for the careful read, all actioned bar the systemic risk link, with my reasoning above. Shout if you would prefer it linked anyway. Metalicat (talk) 11:04, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Mechanisms
  • We could link to machine learning and click-through rates.
  • Also could the link to "feedback loop" be moved up to the previous section, i.e., on the first mention?
  • "machine-learning models that predict which content a user is likely to engage with from their prior activity" → "machine-learning models that predict which content a user is likely to engage with based on their prior activity"
  • "filter a large catalogue down to a short ranked list of the items with the highest predicted relevance" → "filter a large catalogue down to a short ranked list of items with the highest predicted relevance"
  • "particularly when applied repeatedly across multiple browsing sessions" → "particularly when applied repeatedly across browsing sessions"
  • "allowing platforms to adjust rankings in near real time" → "allowing platforms to adjust rankings in near-real-time"
  • "reduce the diversity of items recommended" → "reduce the diversity of recommended items"
  • Metalicat That’s all for today. And yes, I wouldn’t shout, as I’d prefer the same at my FAC.

MSincccc (talk) 16:01, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@MSincccc:All actioned. Machine learning and click-through rate are now linked, and I have linked "feedback" at its first appearance in the section rather than at the later "feedback loop", which I think is what you were after. The five copy-edits are all in too. I would be glad to look over your Catherine FAC :-) Metalicat (talk) 16:53, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Beneficial and public-interest uses
  • "surfacing material predicted to match their interests or needs" → "surfacing material predicted to match users' interests or needs"
  • "though the same recommendation systems also risk amplifying misinformation alongside official guidance" → "though the same systems also risk amplifying misinformation alongside official guidance"
  • "have become a significant channel for public participation and backchannel communication in crises" → "have become a significant channel for public participation and back-channel communication in crises"
  • "the same platform infrastructure that accelerates the spread of useful information can also amplify rumour and misinformation" → "the same platform infrastructure that accelerates the spread of useful information can also amplify rumours and misinformation"
  • ​"persistent concern among creators and industry stakeholders about whether such systems unfairly advantage some artists or genres over others" → "persistent concern among creators and industry stakeholders that such systems may unfairly advantage some artists or genres over others"

​*"promote diversity and commonality of experience" → "promote diversity and a commonality of experience"

MSincccc (talk) 13:41, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Effects on information ecosystems
  • "Much of this work concerns the spread of misinformation and harmful content and the visibility and income of creators and news outlets." → "Much of this work concerns the spread of misinformation and harmful content, and the visibility and revenues of creators and news outlets."
  • "Other studies address filter bubbles, political polarisation, effects on young users' mental health, and the use of recommendation systems by state actors." → "Other studies address filter bubbles, political polarisation, the effects on young users' mental health, and the use of recommendation systems by state actors."
  • "although the authors attributed this primarily to human sharing behaviour rather than platform algorithms." → "although the authors attributed this primarily to human sharing behaviour rather than to platform algorithms."
  • "A 2025 algorithmic audit of X found that the platform's engagement-based ranking algorithm amplified content that was emotionally charged and hostile towards members of opposing political groups" → "A 2025 algorithmic audit of X found that the platform's engagement-based ranking algorithm amplified content that was emotionally charged and hostile to members of opposing political groups"
  • "The topics bots amplified predicted subsequent coverage by partisan news outlets" → "The topics that bots amplified predicted subsequent coverage by partisan news outlets"
  • "Users clicked on links within the AI summary itself in around 1 per cent of visits" → "Users clicked on links within the AI summary itself in about 1 per cent of visits"
  • Could the links to the US Senate and filter bubbles be moved to their first mention?

MSincccc (talk) 10:38, 11 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@MSincccc: All actioned, thank you, it reads better. Metalicat (talk) 23:25, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Methods of study
  • "randomised experiments run by the platforms themselves" → "randomised experiments conducted by the platforms themselves"
  • "Sock-puppet audits create artificial accounts with controlled characteristics and observe what content the platform recommends to them." → "Sock-puppet audits create artificial accounts with controlled characteristics to observe what content is recommended to them."
  • "do not interact with content as real users would" → "do not interact with content as real users do"
  • "participants who volunteer may not be representative" → "participants may not be representative"

MSincccc (talk) 06:32, 13 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Debate
  • "on how large its effects are relative to other factors that shape information consumption" → "on how large its effects are relative to other factors shaping information consumption"
  • "weakens the common experiences on which cultural citizenship depends" → "weakens the shared experiences on which cultural citizenship depends"
  • "producing limited measurable effects on attitudes" → "with limited measurable effects on attitudes"
Lead
  • "Major platforms including Facebook, YouTube, TikTok, and X (formerly Twitter) use such systems" → "Major platforms, including Facebook, YouTube, TikTok, and X (formerly Twitter), use such systems"
  • "through feeds, search rankings, or autoplay systems" → "through feeds, search rankings, or autoplay"
  • "The scale and direction of those effects remain debated" → "The scale and direction of these effects remain debated"
  • "Internal documents and whistleblower testimony reported by the BBC in 2026 described how" → "Internal documents and whistleblower testimony reported by the BBC in 2026 describe how"
  • although the two can interact in practice
    • How about "may" in place of "can"?
Bottom line
@MSincccc: Thank you very much for a thorough read that has left the article in better shape. All actioned. Metalicat (talk) 12:08, 13 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Support from VWF

[edit]

I've read through and I honestly find this article impressive. I have only few below:

  • The article says New York's SAFE For Kids Act "requires platforms to default to chronological feeds" for under-18 users unless parental consent is obtained. The New York Senate text says it prohibits "addictive feeds" for minors without parental consent, and AP describes the alternative as feeds limited to accounts young users follow, not necessarily chronological feeds. I would rewrite that claim more precisely.
  • I was a bit confused as to if the "History" section is really a history of "algorithmic amplification" as a concept or a history of recommender systems. Maybe renaming it to something like "Development of recommendation systems" or adding a clearer paragraph on the emergence of the term itself might work. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 16:00, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Vanderwaalforces: Thank you, thats appreciated. You are right on both counts.
  • On the SAFE For Kids Act: the same loose wording had propagated to a second sentence in the Regulation section, so both are now rewritten. The Act restricts algorithmically personalised feeds for under-18s absent parental consent; without consent, minors are shown content only from accounts they follow or select, in a set sequence such as chronological order. Chronological order is an example of a compliant sequence rather than the requirement, as you say. Checking the source also turned up a second problem I had not spotted: the article was written in the present tense as though the Act were operative, when it in fact takes effect 180 days after the attorney general finalises implementing rules, which were only issued in proposed form in September 2025. That is now stated.
  • On the section: it is a history of the recommendation systems that do the amplifying rather than of the term itself, so I have renamed it "Development of recommendation systems". On the term's own emergence, I would rather not add a paragraph yet. I have not been able to establish a reliable earliest datable use, and a request at WP:RX is still open. I would rather leave the question open than assert an origin I cannot source; if something solid comes back I will work it in.
One further update while I was in the section: Ofcom published the categorisation register on 10 July, so the UK section no longer ends on the postponement. Thanks again, both were worth catching. Metalicat (talk) 21:47, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Metalicat That is very reasonable and interesting. I find this article very comprehensive, well-written, and I won't hesitate to support promotion now. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 15:17, 13 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much! Metalicat (talk) 15:20, 13 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Noleander

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  • This article is on a very topical and important topic ... it would be nice if we can get it to FA quality and see it on the WP main page.
Thank you, that's kind and much appreciated. Metalicat (talk) 11:49, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article does not have many images. I realize that relevant images may be hard to find for such an abstract topic. But images is one of the advantages WP has over AI encyclopedias, so if additional relevant images can be found, that would be great.
    • For images: as a last resort, consider photos prominent people mentioned in the article; e.g. person Frances Haugen is named & linked, so a small headshot next to that paragraph might be useful to readers. But resorting to headshots is only needed if non-headshot images are not available.
    • If the sources have some images (of a schematic/diagrammatic nature) that would help the article, and if you can envision a way to describe alternative versions that do not violate copyright, I can draw just about anything in Inkscape and put the images in Commons for you to include in this article.
Agreed, and I'd like more. The feedback-loop material below gives a natural candidate: a simple cycle showing recommendations being shown, consumed, logged and fed back into the model, which would help readers more than a headshot. I'm happy to have a go at that myself, but equally happy (and appreciative) for you or anyone else to suggest images or make them for the article. A Frances Haugen headshot is a sensible fallback if a freely-licensed one turns up. Metalicat (talk) 11:49, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I've added a diagram of the loop to the Mechanisms section, what do you think? Metalicat (talk) 12:56, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Metalicat - The new feedback diagram is xlnt. The article could benefit from about 3 more illustrations to break up the text. The goal is to help the readers grasp the article's points after they start reading the article. But it is even more important to invite readers into the article: many readers will avoid an article if they are greeted with a wall of text. Noleander (talk) 13:05, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Section title "Background". Would "History" be a better title? ...
Agreed, renamed to "History". Metalicat (talk) 11:49, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Section title "Criticism and debate" — The word "Criticism" in a section title is generally discouraged; should only be used as a last resort. See essay WP:Criticism. If consistent with the sources, consider another word such as "Assessments", "Analysis", "Concerns", "Responses", "Reactions", "Discourse", or "Critiques" etc. Or maybe "Debate" alone.
    • Alternatively: if the debate/discourse focuses primarily on certain issues, select a section title that identifies the issues, e.g. "Ethical and social implications" or "Societal impacts" or "Societal harms" etc.
Renamed to "Debate", per WP:Criticism. Metalicat (talk) 11:49, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • My gut is telling me that the relation of AA to feedback loops is significant; but I see the word "feedback" only 4 times; and none of them are linked to a WP article. If the sources warrant it: consider (a) adding WP link; (b) discussing feedback loop aspect of AA more; (c) a devoted subsection? (d) an image illustrating feedback loop. But only if sources warrant it.
The sources warrant it. I've added two sentences to Mechanisms on how recommender feedback loops can amplify popularity bias, reduce item diversity and homogenise users' preferences (Mansoury et al. 2020; Chaney et al. 2018), and linked feedback loop. A dedicated subsection felt heavier than the sourcing supports for now, but a diagram is very much on the table. Metalicat (talk) 11:49, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Regulation" section directly jumps into 4 geographic subsections. Is it possible to add an introductory sentence at the very top of "Regulation" that tells the reader what the section covers? Something simple: just describe the common themes/elements of the 4 subsections. Probably doesn't need any citations if it is just restating or distilling facts from the subsections.
Added a short opening sentence describing the common themes across the four subsections. Metalicat (talk) 11:49, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ditto for "Effects on information ecosystems" section. Ideally, a section like this starts with a small intro telling the reader what the content/intent/purpose/theme of the section is.
Likewise, added a short scene-setting sentence at the top of the section. Metalicat (talk) 11:49, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Show Ref Check" tool says page # missing from cite: Trielli ...
Fixed; the citation now carries the article number (453). Metalicat (talk) 11:49, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • See also section: Only has one link ... Consider ... eliminating ... the entire See Also section.
Removed the section entirely, since the sole link was already carried by both footer navboxes. Metalicat (talk) 11:49, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Terminology" section: ... does OED have any record of when the phrase first was used? Maybe post an inquiry at WP:RX ...
Good idea. I've posted a request at RX for the earliest datable use of the phrase; if anything comes back I'll work it in. Metalicat (talk) 11:49, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Noleander:Thank you again, a generous and useful first pass. I'll ping you around 15 July for the second look. Metalicat (talk) 11:49, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Metalicat - Readers would greatly benefit if the article included 2 or 3 screenshots of social media app feeds. To locate more images, consider looking in Commons at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Online_posts_feeds Although some screenshots of apps may be copyrighted, the above Commons category may include some that are not. Noleander (talk) 14:15, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Noleander: Thanks for the suggestion. I am not sure a screenshot is the right tool here, though.
  • Licensing: would a genuine feed screenshot be usable under Commons:Screenshots? My concern is that the platform interface and the visible posts would be central to the image rather than incidental. If you have a particular file or licensing rationale in mind, I would be glad to look at it.
  • Usefulness: a screenshot can show what a feed looks like, but it cannot by itself show amplification. That needs a comparison between the same items ranked in different ways, which is what the feed comparison diagram already provides.
Your Inkscape offer is much appreciated. I think we should keep looking for places where a diagram would genuinely help, rather than force one into a section. Any alternative suggestions or ideas would be very welcome.
Metalicat (talk) 23:10, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. I have also added a diagram illustrating how sock-puppet audits are conducted: view the diagram. Metalicat (talk) 22:34, 13 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Noleander: Pinging as requested. Metalicat (talk) 15:03, 15 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Second pass
[edit]
  • Article is looking fine. I'm leanding support. The only remaining issue I see is the shortage of images: there are only about seven images, and it is a big article (6,486 prose words). Disclaimer: I'm a visual learner, and I find images to be very important part of any WP article. On the other hand, there are topics where not many images are available. On the third hand, even articles on "dry" topics like Logic (FA) or Agnosticism (FAC) have 10+ images.
  • The question is: can additional relevant, useful, informative images be found?
  • A possible source is to look within the article sources. Many of those sources, I'm sure have fantastic images.
  • Are any of the sources open source? If so: the images in that source material can be placed into Wiki Commons and be directly used in the AA article (provided that the the source's open-source license permits both commercial and non-commercial use).
  • Here is a random source in this article: Trielli, Daniel; Diakopoulos, Nicholas (2019). "Search as news curator: The role of Google in shaping attention to news information". CHI '19: Proceedings of the 2019 CHI Conference on Human Factors in Computing Systems. Art. 453. online at https://dl.acm.org/doi/epdf/10.1145/3290605.3300683 Within that article are about 11 images/charts/diagrams/figures. Are none of those useful? It is not a violation of copyright for a WP editor to use a spreadsheet app to draw a histogram illustrating numerical data in a copyrighted article. Then upload the chart/histogram/pie chart to Commons, and voilà.
  • The article has about 80 sources. I presume the vast majority have multiple images. If this AA article could use a single image from each of only 10% of the sources, that would be 8 additional images. Granted, most of those 8 images would need to be re-created in a spreadsheet or Inkscape app, but that is a very common exercise for editors preparing FA-quality articles.
  • Summary: The prose & MOS of the article are great, but the article looks dryer than toast :-) I strongly suggest adding some new images (perhaps inspired by images from the sources). It is early in the FAC nomination timeline, plenty of time to research images. Noleander (talk) 00:55, 16 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Noleander: Many thanks. Your second pass sent me back through both the sources and Commons, and I agreed that several substantial sections could be illustrated more helpfully.
I have now added five images to previously unillustrated parts of the article:
The three diagrams and charts were created specifically for the article, using only figures or relationships supported by the cited sources. I also checked the Regulation section, but decided not to force an image there. It compares four jurisdictions, and an image centred on one legislature, regulator or legal regime would give that subsection disproportionate visual weight without adding much explanatory value.
I hope the article is now a little less dry than toast. Thanks for pushing me to look again; I think the additions have improved both the visual balance and the explanation of several concepts. Metalicat (talk) 09:57, 16 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Noleander: Following up on the above: anything further you would like me to look at here? Metalicat (talk) 17:45, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Support on prose and MOS. I have not done an image or source review. My only remaining thought is that the article seems to (a) emphasize scientific/technical material a bit much, and perhaps under-emphasizes day-to-day impacts to normal social media consumers. and (b) is written for academic/technical audience, not WP lay/general audience. So I'd suggest that nominator review WP:TECHNICAL including WP:TECH-CONTENT, WP:GENAUD, WP:ONEDOWN ... and see if those guidelines support more a more general-purpose material or tone. Noleander (talk) 18:07, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Noleander: Thank you, a fair point. I will reword the more technical passages of the lead into plainer language, gloss method terms like "counterfactual-bot study", open the Mechanisms section with a plain-language summary before the detail and add an everyday example early so a general reader can see what amplification means before meeting the research. Metalicat (talk) 19:44, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

[edit]
@Nikkimaria: Thank you, both actioned.
  • Timeline: removed. You are right that it was largely text, and the milestones are all in the prose anyway.
  • MOS:COLOUR: thank you for pointing me at this, it was a gap in my understanding. I have been through every remaining diagram and reuploaded those that needed it, so that nothing now depends on colour alone and all text meets the contrast floor.
Metalicat (talk) 22:40, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria: Since your last comment I have added several images to previously unillustrated sections. I have tried to keep the new diagrams and charts faithful to MOS:COLOUR and MOS:TEXTASIMAGES, and would welcome your eye on whether they meet the mark. Metalicat (talk) 19:53, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Looks okay. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:37, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Spectrum Range

[edit]
Nominator(s): Volcanoguy 01:59, 8 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a small mountain range in northwestern British Columbia, Canada. It is the eroded remains a large volcano at the southern end of the Mount Edziza volcanic complex, which was studied in detail by Canadian volcanologist Jack Souther from the 1960s to the early 1990s. The Spectrum Range does not seem to have gained much attention since Souther's studies. Volcanoguy 01:59, 8 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Used upright. Volcanoguy 21:23, 11 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Older nominations

[edit]

Sonic the Hedgehog (Archie Comics)

[edit]
Nominator(s): JOEBRO64 17:11, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

As the Sonic brand's reputation took a nosedive thanks to the games' trend-chasing and Sega's instability, one of the franchise's few areas of stability was this Archie Comics-published series, which, in an unprecedented feat, managed to endure for over 20 years after the show it was created to promote was canceled. Nowadays, it's mainly remembered for the hilarious legal battle that exposed how incompetently Archie was run and may or may not have contributed to Sega revoking the license and handing it to IDW a decade ago, though a lot of fans still look back on it fondly. (At least, when it wasn't making tasteless allusions to the Holocaust.)

This was a fairly difficult subject to write about, as the coverage was a little limited due to kids' comics not really getting much attention compared to the likes of Batman and Superman. However, I believe I've managed to cover the subject comprehensively and that it meets the FA criteria. I hope you enjoy the read! JOEBRO64 17:11, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

RoySmith

[edit]

All I want to say here is that no treatment of Sonic the Hedgehog could be considered complete without at least mentioning the Sonic hedgehog gene. Despite the fact that the article appears to be written by an LLM, the SSH gene really is a thing. If articles about serious topics can have In popular culture sections, then surely articles about silly topics can have In serious science sections, no? RoySmith (talk) 21:35, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@RoySmith: that's mentioned in the main Sonic the Hedgehog article (which I brought to FAC a few years ago) in the cultural impact subsection. This article focuses on the Archie comic, not the character or the franchise. JOEBRO64 21:45, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, all is cool then. RoySmith (talk) 23:07, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

RandomEdits

[edit]

Signing up for a review over the next few days. For my sins I'm very familiar with both the comic and the saga of everything surrounding it, so I'll be able to approach it from a knowledgeable base.

A quick initial read looks promising. There is sadly no way to include every part of the geniunely insane writing at times (To pick three random wild parts nearly as bad as the unedited Holocaust reference; Charmy the Bee being royalty whose best friend canonically dies from an LSD overdose, Knuckles getting microwaved as an egg resulting in him later turning into a Jesus metaphor complete with walking on water and dying then resurrecting, everything Titan Tails) which are only matched by the whole Penders lawsuit debacle, but the line has to be drawn somewhere I suppose. RandomEditsForWhenIRemember (talk) 09:57, 7 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, sadly a lot of information just doesn't exist in RSs at the moment. For instance, I would've loved to write more about the insane behind-the-scenes drama (Penders turning Knuckles green for years and threatening to quit when Sega asked to make him red again, the Bollers/Penders conflict, and Archie's full explanation as to how they lost Penders' contract) but it's limited to forums, blogs, and YouTube videos that aren't usable on WP. JOEBRO64 11:10, 7 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

1brianm7

[edit]

I did a read through and I am slightly concerned with how much Penders is cited throughout, especially for somewhat contentious claims. It was generally pretty good read. I might leave more comments but I am inexperienced at FAC. 1brianm7 (talk) 09:17, 8 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

I've been sure to attribute everything that comes from Penders to Penders. One of the issues with Archie Sonic coverage is that most of the behind-the-scenes information comes from Penders, who's obviously not the most neutral source of information. (Flynn, Bollers, and Pellerito don't do many interviews.) This YouTube documentary by Matt Levin includes interviews with Flynn and Bollers, but I'm unsure about using it as a source since it's self-published. The last time I tried using a YT doc with interviews at FAC I got shouted at and had to remove it, haha. JOEBRO64 10:26, 8 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • My thoughts and suggestions are scattered throughout and don't go in chronological order, apologies. 1brianm7 (talk) 10:05, 8 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • despite this being against the standard industry practice of creators automatically owning original concepts - this is cited to Bleeding Cool, which is quoting Penders article in Berkeley's student newspaper, and the rest of the Bleeding Cool article sorta contradicts it, as does my understanding of the American comics industry
  • Sonic's longevity surprised Kotaku and CGMagazine,[3][20] which described the comic "enduring generational shifts and the dwindling success of its source material" as remarkable.[20] - this needs to clarify that CQMagazine is saying this, it's not clear from the phrasing
  • The Berkeley Journal of Entertainment & Sports Law wrote... - surely we need to say that Penders was one of the coauthors of this article talking about how important his lawsuit was? More broadly, the reception section is filed with us taking bylined pieces in news articles and attributing it to the publisher. That's fine sometimes, and it's good to vary how you attribute sentences (John Smith of Newspaper wrote; John Smith, writing in Newspaper, said; Newspaper said), and it's understandable when you'd otherwise have to say "Pedrovay2003 of Destructoid wrote", but it definitely doesn't work when Penders is one of the authors.
  • The Archie editor... - MOS:PSEUDOTITLE says it is fine to vary use of false titles in articles, and the mouthfeel in this one feels odd to me

Austrovenus stutchburyi

[edit]
Nominator(s): AxonsArachnida (talk) 08:07, 3 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Austrovenus stutchburyi, one of the most common shellfish of New Zealand. This species has a surprising amount of scientific research about it, so I have made this article to fully encapsulate everything that is known about it. The article has already had a round of excellent feedback during the peer review and as such I am confident that it is more than ready to be reviewed for Featured Article status. AxonsArachnida (talk) 08:07, 3 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

RoySmith

[edit]

I look at this when it was at peer review and generally liked what I saw.

  • One thing I called out at PR was the lack of a range map, which was added then removed due to MOS:COLOR issues. A better response to "X is not MOS:ACCESS would be to fix X, not remove it. I think another attempt at creating a more MOS-compliant version would be good thing.
    • I wasn't fully happy with the distribution map to begin with. My main concern is that it isn't particularly informative since this is a species that is everywhere in New Zealand coastlines. I would be happy to just make one myself, but the available map templates for NZ don't feature the subantarctic islands. The closest I could find is the one I used for my version of the distribution map, but that doesn't look great. Especially if I add island names to it. I did put a request to the Graphics Lab group to see if someone there would be willing, but received no response so I gave up. I really think a map is unnecessary since the distribution can (and has) been described in a single a sentence. Since Graphics Lab has had a spike of activity, I'll try asking them again if desired, but otherwise I might need some advice on how to proceed.
      • Let's see if the GL folks can come up with something better. I'll call this a "nice to have": worth pursuing, but not worth holding things up over.
  • A made a few copyedits around the ethnocentrism of calling the Europeans "first" when it came to naming the thing.
    • Ok.
  • being slightly larger in the southern parts of the country is that the same as "... on the South Island"?
    • No.
  • occurs throughout all three mainland islands,. I think of "mainland" as meaning "not an island", so this seems a bit odd to me. Is that the standard phraseology in NZ English? Also, what the three islands? I'm only familiar with North and South. What's the third?
    • Third refers to Stewart Island (just below the South Island). I've reworded this to be a bit clearer. When I think of mainland, I just think of the main bulk of a country.
  • cytochrome oxidase I gene (an informative gene in such studies) "informative" is an odd word choice. What does it inform? Would "important indicator gene" work as a replacement (I'd really like a SME to weigh in on that one before just trusting my suggestion).
    • I am a SME and use this gene regularly (Albeit I've used this for non-mollusc DNA). Indicator probably isn't quite right. The general idea is COI tends to mutate at an ideal rate thats fast enough to accumulate detectable change, but not so fast that mutations are getting overwritten too quickly (which would make this information less reliable). So I guess when I say its informative, I'm trying to state that it provides an effective amount of information to make genetic analysis meaningful (having said that, informative probably has different meanings to lay people that it would to a SME, but I don't see a good alternative).
      • OK, that makes sense. Could you expand the current explanation a bit to cover that in a way which would make sense to a non-technical reader? Perhaps "The COI gene makes a useful yardstick in studies of this type because its predictable rate of mutation gives clear indications of when populations diverged"?
  • Austrovenus stutchburyi promotes ammonium Maybe it's OK as is, but I would have written "ammonium ions" (and again later). Check with a chemist to be sure.
    • The terms are interchangeable. I prefer adding "ions" since that's more formal, so I've added that.
  • it took the veliger larva 20 days to develop What are veliger larva?
    • It's stated earlier in the description section.
  • A. stutchburyi is infected by the larval stage of the trematode parasites this makes it sound like every one is infected. I assume you mean something like "can be infected"?
  • limit for commercial harvesting in the Dunedin area is 1,470 tonnes ... maximum annual catch limit for commercial harvesting in the area is 1,390 tons Be consistant with spelling (tonnes vs tons)
    • Fixed.
  • all found to have decreased from AD 1300 to present day I don't think you need to specify AD here.
    • I feel that it looks a bit odd without something there to explicitly indicate that 1300 is a year. Perhaps it's just me.
  • Surveys have since found that the populations in the harbour are recovering Should be {{asof}} with the year.
    • Cool, I didn't know about that template. Added.

OK, that's it for another read-through. All of these are minor issues that should be easy to fix. RoySmith (talk) 21:03, 3 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks again @RoySmith. I've got replies to your comments above. Only main thing of note is the distribution map stuff. AxonsArachnida (talk) 05:12, 4 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
The map's not a blocker. I made a suggestion above about how to handle the COI gene stuff better. Once we get that resolved, I think we're good to go. RoySmith (talk) 11:27, 4 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@AxonsArachnida any progress on the COI wording? RoySmith (talk) 11:11, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Not just yet. I've got some IRL committments I need to prioritise. Aiming to sort it out in the next 2-3 days. AxonsArachnida (talk) 21:56, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@RoySmith Never mind, I found some time. I've added an explanation. Also I put a request in with Graphics Lab a little while ago. AxonsArachnida (talk) 02:54, 11 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, that works. Support based on the quality of the prose. RoySmith (talk) 10:35, 11 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Traumnovelle

[edit]

Source review: ' The lectotype (a single specimen designated as the type specimen when none was specified) is stored in the Natural History Museum of London.' Is the verification for this passage? 'and is here designated the lectotype of Venus stutchburyi Wood, 1828. The larger paralectotype is the specimen illustrated by Reeve ( 1863, pl. 15, fig. 59) (K.M. Way BMNH pers. comm. June 2005).'

  • Yep that's correct.
    • Supported by the source.

'In these habitats, A. stutchburyi can be extremely abundant with population density varying between sites. In the Canterbury region, the species was estimated to have a population density of over 1,200 per m2 in Akaroa, but less than 100 per m2 at Port Levy.' Two Akaroa Harbour sites were used for the study, so it is somewhat inaccurate to say that the population density is 1,200 in Akaroa when that is one site and it appears the population varies heavily within the harbour. Also the study location is Akaroa Harbour not the settlement. The first Port Levy site had population densities comparable to Akaroa. It would also be good to mention that salinity is the influence here, even if it is mentioned later in other sections. It may even be better to compare the two Akaroa or two Port Levy sites here as that shows how much it can vary within a very close area.

  • @Traumnovelle I've reworded it to say "At Akaroa Harbour in the Canterbury region, the species was estimated to have a population density of 1,200 per m2 at one study site and 500 per m2 at another nearby study site.". The study says that salinity is uncorrelated with density, so I've not made an attempt at speculating why this difference is occurring.
    • Supported by the source now.

'It rarely burrows more than 50–100 mm (2.0–3.9 in) below the surface' - Supported by the source.

'In one study of A. stutchburyi population genetics, the haplotypes...' Supported by the source.

'A. stutchburyi is dioecious, meaning it has separate sexes.' Supported by the source. Although as I mentioned in the peer review isn't gonochorism the preferred term for animals?

  • Not sure how I missed that. Added.

't is inferred to undergo spawning during at least spring and summer' Support by the source. Although secondary sources would be preferable, is this the only study/report looking at when spawning occurs?

  • It's the only study/report that has attempted this.

[3], see WP:THESIS. Has this thesis been cited, was it republished through a peer-review process?

  • It's been cited 19 times. It doesn't seem to have been republished anywhere unfortunately, which is all to common with theses (It took me six years to publish my masters!). It's worth noting the supervisors of the thesis are (were?) all active researchers (especially Phil Mladenov) and the author herself remains an active zoologist.

'In a laboratory study, following fertilisation, it took the veliger larva 20 days to develop and attach to a solid surface. Spatfall (settlement of the larva to surfaces) occurs shortly after spawning, with the authors inferring that this presumably happens from February to May'. Which part supports the 'spatfall occurs shortly after spawning'? Sorry, I am a bit of out my comfort here with this.

  • From the study: "C. stutchburyi has a 4-month spawning period, from January to April (Larcombe 1971; Stephenson, unpubl. data). Assuming a natural development time similar to that observed in culture, of about 20 days, spatfall would be expected to occur from February to May." Spawning is when fertilisation occurs. Around twenty days after this, the larvae engage in spatfall. I suppose it's a bit subjective to say "shortly after", but I think its within reason here.
  • I thought it may have been that but I wasn't completely sure whether 'shortly after' meant 20 days or something else. Thank you for confirming.

Images are appropriately licensed. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:02, 11 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Jens

[edit]
  • Any reason the article title is not "New Zealand cockle" per WP:COMMONNAME? Google Scholar shows quite some papers that use this common name in their titles.
    • Mainly because in text I've chosen to refer to it as "A. stutchburyi". I did this because writing out "New Zealand cockle" was too clunky for repeated use. So since A. stutchburyi is used in text, I've chosen to keep the title the same for consistency.
      • You have to follow Wikipedia:Naming conventions (fauna). From skimming the guideline, it seems that the title should be "New Zealand cockle". You could often abbreviate by just writing "the cockle" or "the species" when it is clear what you are referring to; I don't see "clunky wording" listed as criterion in the guidelines. I think that, if you decide that the title needs to be changed, you might have to do that after the nomination is closed in order to avoid script errors (not sure about this point). --Jens Lallensack (talk) 17:44, 17 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
        • If we decide to do the name change, I'll ask the coordinators if changing the name would mess up the scripts (and do it after the nomination if it would). If you don't mind, it might be good to get an extra set of opinions on this. @RoySmith, @Traumnovelle @Barbalalaika do you guys think it should be renamed to "New Zealand cockle"? I'm a bit too biased here since I think "New Zealand cockle" is such a stupid common name lol. AxonsArachnida (talk) 01:23, 18 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
          Meh. I'm kind of in agreement that we should go with what WP:COMMONNAME says, but looking at WP:FA#Invertebrates, we seem to be roughly 50/50 on whether we use common names or scientific names, so I really can't get too excited either way. RoySmith (talk) 01:35, 18 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
          Cockle is certainly more recognisable to the average reader, at the same time there is no requirement that we use the article title in the body. We can start with the common name, introduce the scientific name, and then use that for consistency/brevity. But also simply 'cockle' would work. Traumnovelle (talk) 01:41, 18 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
          I'm not actually convinced that Cockle is actually more recognizable. I've known the word since I was a kid, but only in the context of it being something Mary had in her garden without actually knowing what it was. But, as I said above, I have no strong opinion either way. RoySmith (talk) 02:04, 18 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
          • But still, we should probably just follow our policies. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (fauna) does not take title recognizability into account as far as I see. But it states this: When there is no common name or no consensus can be reached on the most common name, or if it isn't clear what taxon the common name refers to (as in the sardine example above), use the scientific name. Neither applies here, so we probably should use the common name, unless there is a convincing policy-based argument why we shouldn't. Anyways, I won't withold my support over this (in my view relatively minor) point. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 19:51, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
            Okay, when this FA nomination is done, I'll just put it up for requested move and advertise it to Wikiproject NZ and Wikiproject Bivalves (I'll also tag reviewers from here) and let them sort it out. AxonsArachnida (talk) 06:17, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Austrovenus stutchburyi, common name the New Zealand cockle – this is ungrammatical; rephrase to "commonly known as" or something?
    • Your wording works. Added.
  • How does the species differ from related species? How do I identify it if I find it? That's an obvious question many readers would have, I think.
    • Both other species in the genus are extinct, so there's not much risk of confusion there. Distinguishing it from other Bivalves is a pretty broad net and there aren't any ID keys for doing this. Just looking at the other common Veneridae in New Zealand, I do think the combination of images and description will be enough to make it identifiable.
  • Maori name – in lead, link at first mention, and unlink second mention.
    • For the first mention I've added a link to "Maori language". I left the second mention alone since this goes to "Maori people" instead.
  • Populations – in lead, in the middle of the sentence, so should be lower case
    • Fixed.
  • A. stutchburyi – Maybe spell out the genus name in first sentence of the main text?
    • Done.
  • million years ago – This explanation of the abbreviation "ma" comes one sentence too late
    • Fixed.
  • is common from the Cenozoic Era – Bit confusing; we currently live in the Cenozoic Era.
    • I've changed to "is common in Cenozoic Era deposits". Does that read better?
  • The shell's overall shape can vary slightly throughout New Zealand, being slightly larger in the southern parts of the country. – Are you speaking about shape or size? Those are different things in biology (shape + size = form).
    • Size. Added.
  • frequently stained purple towards the corners – what corners?
    • Reworded.
  • It found that the genetic population is more subdivided than other – replace "It" with "The study", otherwise it refers to the gene.
    • Replaced.
  • "dispersal" might need a link.
    • Linked.
  • A. stutchburyi may reflect limited dispersal in its estuarine habitat relative to open-ocean species – so I guess this means that it is not an open-ocean species. However, earlier you say "It found that the genetic population is more subdivided than other open ocean fauna", which I think means that it is an open-ocean species. Seems contradictory to me.
    • Changed to "genetic population is more subdivided than open ocean fauna in the country", which doesn't infer its an open ocean species.
  • Austrovenus stutchburyi promotes ammonium ion release from the sediment via excretion – the sentence here is very technical. You could also explain how the ammonium gets from the sediment into the clam to begin with.
    • I've reworded it to be a bit clearer how this happens.
      • It now reads Austrovenus stutchburyi promotes the release of ammonium ions from the sediment by excreting the ammonium into the sediment, which causes the ammonium to then diffuse into the water. This is a bit clunky, and it seems to promote release "into" the sediment, not "from" the sediment? Why not simply The excretions of the clam are a source of ammonium ions, which support primary production (the conversion of inorganic carbon to organic compounds) in the water by photosynthetic microbes when production is limited by nitrogen abundance. That would also be much shorter.
        • That works. Added.
  • In the lead you say "A. stutchburyi is a primary producer". I can't find that repeated in the body, which instead states that it "may support" primary production by ammonium release.
    • Reworded (along with the oxygen uptake stuff). The paper doesn't do a good job explaining these mechanisms, but I think I've got it.
      • But you still say that the clam is a primary producer in the lead only, not in the body?
        • Fixed.
  • photosynthetic microbes from photosynthesising – I think that the first "photosynthetic" is redundant, as no reader will assume that non-photosynthetic microbes are prevented from photosynthesising.
    • Ha, good point. Removed.
  • increases oxygen uptake by sediment – how does it do that?
    • I've reworded this (along with ammonium release).
      • But those photosynthesising microbes are in the water (as you stated earlier), and increasing the amount of oxygen in the water promotes oxygen uptake by the sediment, do I understand this correctly now?
        • Yep, you've got it.
  • dissolved oxygen – linked, but why isn't that linked the first time "oxygen" is mentioned?
    • Moved link.
  • A. stutchburyi is a suspension feeder, meaning it feeds on organic particles filtered from the water. In one laboratory study of A. stutchburyi where suspended sediment concentration was raised, water filtration rates on the second day increased and peaked with increasing amount of suspended sediments before decreasing again. However, on the fourteenth day, the filtration rate was largely identical regardless of the amount of suspended sediments. This suggests that the feeding response of A. stutchburyi to increased suspended sediment concentrations (such as those caused by sediment runoff) varies over time. – I think this is poorly written and I don't really get it. What has suspension feeding do to with suspended sediment? Does it feed on sediment? On the second day, filtration rates increased, and then, suspended sediment increased and filtration rates peaked (you don't say when), that doesn't make perfect sense. On the fourteenth day, filtration rate was identical to what? "varies over time", I'm also not sure what to make of that, if you increase food availability (?) of course the uptake will change?
    • I've reworded all this. Hopefully its clearer now.
      • It is. But it needs a copy edit. For example, the second sentence is incomplete, and "the greatest level of water filtration rates" could simply be "the highest water filtration rates", no?
  • attach to a solid surface. Spatfall (settlement of the larva to surfaces) occurs shortly after spawning – Can't follow. "attach to a solid surface" and "settlement to surfaces", are these two different things?
  • occurs shortly after spawning – didn't you just mention "20 days"? Or is that referring to something else?
    • As above.
  • rolling behaviour – since rolling is passive (by a current), I wouldn't call it a "behaviour". Coming to the surface to allow the current to carry it away is a behaviour.
    • Reworded.
  • You do not state where the name "stutchburyi" is coming from, and where the first shells were collected (here is an interesting source for this: [4]).
    • Brilliant find. How did you find that? I thought I found everything on this species that is available online.
      • Thanks. Stutchbury quickly got me to Samuel Stutchbury as the only possibility. I then entered this query into Google Scholar: "Austrovenus stutchburyi" "Samuel Stutchbury". This gives only one paper, which doesn't have the information but cited the one that has (and which I linked above). This shows again how incomplete things like Google Scholar actually are. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 17:44, 17 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • More soon. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 09:21, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    @Jens Lallensack Cheers. I've gone through your available comments. AxonsArachnida (talk) 06:27, 13 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • As these factors vary between sites, so does growth rate – After the details provided, this feels redundant. Delete or move to beginning?
    • Deleted.
  • As A. stutchburyi grows, growth bands can appear – below you use "growth rings", not "growth bands", and that might be confusing (a reader might assume you mean two different things if you use different terms)
    • (drive-by comment): oblink WP:ELEVAR but more specifically I agree about the possible confusion. Especially in a technical article where the reader may unfamiliar with all the terms, it is natural to assume that two different words are intentionally being used to denote two different things. One possible fix is to just use the same word. Another is to explicitly tell the reader that they're synonyms: "... growth bands or rings can appear" or perhaps even "... growth bands (called rings in some sources) can appear". RoySmith (talk) 09:44, 14 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
      • Thanks both. I went with just referring to them as bands.
  • growth bands can appear in the shell – not as helpful as it could be; I assume these are only visible in cross section?
    • They can apparently been seen in the intact shell, although I'd assume a cross section would be easier. I did spend a bit of time trying to do this with some of the shells I have, but the papers are vague about how to distinguish them.
  • In the same study, A. stutchburyi grew at a rate of 0.17 to 0.35 mm (0.007 to 0.014 in) per month, with factors like salinity, concentration of chlorophyll-a (a proxy for photosynthetic microorganisms) and temperature during low tide being the main influences.[22] – Both the growth rates and the environmental factors were already discussed further above; maybe combine with that?
    • Combined.
  • was suggested that this may delay maturity and reduce the ability of A. stutchburyi to burrow into sediment. – You already mentioned the inability to burrow
    • Reworded.
  • epidermis – Link
    • Linked.
  • None of the viruses detected are known to be pathogens to humans or bivalves.[30] – I can't follow; if those viruses are not affecting bivalves, why are they discussed here (A. stutchburyi is a bivalve)?
    • I've put them in the parasites section for lack of better place to put them. Also its mentioned that A. stutchburyi is a Bivalve further up.
      • My question was actually concerning the claim that these viruses are not affecting the bivalve. So are they present in the bivalve coincidentally? Or do we simply don't know if they are pathogens or not (in which case, I think the sentence is misleading as is).
        • They're not known to affect the bivalve, although the authors are careful about how they word this. I'm not sure I'd describe them as being there coincidentally though. I think its similar to how humans are always carrying loads of completely harmless viruses at any given time. I tweaked the wording a bit to try to make it clearer that no negative effect of these viruses are known yet.
  • The density of B. acus appears to be highly dependent on A. stutchburyi.[32] – "highly dependent on that of"?
    • Added missing wording.
  • Reported commercial harvesting in the region has managed to stay well below this limit. – This wording ("has managed") implies that the fisheries stayed well below the limit on purpose. Is that indeed uncontroversial enough that we can state that in wiki-voice? Or just replace "has managed to stay" with "stayed"?
    • I went with your wording.
  • A. stutchburyi is a traditional food source for Māori people. Middens (old dump sites for domestic waste) dating back to pre-European contact often contained shells of A. stutchburyi that were used as a food source. – The shells itself are not a food source. The last part "were used as food source" is redundant anyway as this was stated at the beginning of the section.
    • Fixed.
  • The Māori principles of taiāpure, mātaitai reserves and rāhui – A reserve is not a principle, right?
    • I changed from "principles" to "practices", which I think is a better fit and covers your comment.
  • When large amounts of sediment is – "are"
    • Fixed.
  • four estuaries within a single harbour – I can't follow here; how to get four estuaries in a single harbour?
    • I missed some details here. Added.
  • specific name – link
    • Linked.
  • I am surprised that, under "Conservation and threats", climate change is not mentioned. You mentioned that extreme temperatures can be a problem to the species. In addition, sea level rise is an obvious threat, and there seems to be more than one paper on this (example: [5]).
    • Good find. I've added a subsection for this study. There's heaps of other studies on Google Scholar, but they're all student theses or just an offhand remark at the end of an article.
  • That's all from me. Will revisit all my points (and possibly add some replies) once all are addressed. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 17:22, 13 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks @Jens Lallensack for the thorough review as always. I've replied to everything above. AxonsArachnida (talk) 05:53, 17 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    I left a number of replies above. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 17:44, 17 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks again @Jens Lallensack, I've got through your latest replies. AxonsArachnida (talk) 07:39, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Barbalalaika

[edit]

I've participated in this article's peer review and am happy to see how far it's come. Please give me one week to give it one last look (ping me if I disappear, sorry in advance if it happens) Barbalalaika 🐌 19:00, 14 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@AxonsArachnida some final remarks:
  • "A. stutchburyi is preyed upon by numerous estuarine animals including crabs, wading birds (such as oystercatchers), large whelks and fish (such as large stingrays)." -- "fish" is a very large, diverse group. I'd give one or two more examples of what other fish prey on the cockle, and if only stingrays are mentioned specifically in the literature, then I'd keep to that. I'd also apply it to the lead.
  • Only stingrays were mention specifically, so I've reworded to that.
  • I suggest adding the IUCN conversation status of the clam in the infobox, even if it hasn't been evaluated. This is still relevant info (and could always change)
  • The issue I'm seeing is that if I add that, there's nothing to cite since there's no assessment.
  • I'd use image2 caption to add a caption to both thumbnail images altogether (something like "view of A. stutchburyi shell from outside (upper image) and inside (lower image)" or something)
  • Awesome. Added.
  • "During the larval (veliger) stage, after A. stutchburyi settles on substrate (...)" -- putting veliger in parentheses implies, to me, that this is the cockle's only larval stage and that it's called veliger. Yet most bivalvia have an earlier, trochophore larva. I found no information on them for A. stutchburyi but would reword for clarity.
  • I've also not found anything to clarify if there's a trochophore larval stage. Presumably there is, but I'm unsure how to proceed.
  • "However, it also noted that A. stutchburyi could disperse long distances to some extent." -- did the study cite a specific number for these long distances, to give the reader a notion?
  • It didn't unfortunately.
  • "Patch of seagrass (Zostera muelleri), which is beneficial to A. stutchburyi" -- suggest changing to "which provides shelter to A. stutchburyi" or anything else explaining what the benefit is exactly
  • I went with your wording.
  • "It has been proposed that both species benefit from shared space, with the seagrass providing shelter to A. stutchburyi and reducing mortality" -- The seagrass reduces mortality THROUGH the shelter offer, right? If so, I suggest a bit more clarity with "thus", "consequently", or something similar
  • "thus" works best.
  • Suggest explaining "macroalgae". I'd think most readers are only familiar with "algae".
  • Explained.
  • "A. stutchburyi is a suspension feeder, meaning it filters organic and inorganic particles from the water, feeding on the former." -- so what does it do with the inorganic particles or why does it filter them?
  • Reworded.
  • "In one laboratory study of A. stutchburyi where individuals were subjected to different concentrations of suspended sediment (which the species filters for food)." -- The sentence is incomplete. I think switching "where" for a comma solves this.
  • Swapped out for a comma.
  • "the authors inferred that settlement (spatfall) in the ocean most likely occurs between February and May" -- the spatfall in parenthesis is doing nothing for me. Is this what settlement by cockles specifically is called, or what does it mean?
  • Reworded.
  • "The juvenile can disperse from unsuitable habitat by crawling" - with its foot? I assume most readers won't know how a cockle crawls.
  • Clarified.
  • "It can control dispersal by either staying buried or emerging to the surface. The round, robust shape of the shell may assist it in passively rolling with water currents." -- suggest switching the sentence order, since the sentence before this snippet is talking about the rolling.
  • Good idea. Shuffled.
  • "A. stutchburyi has been observed slightly opening its shells and extending its siphon to feed during times that coincide with when high tide would have been in their natural habitat, indicating that it tracks the tides" -- "when high tide would have been in their natural habitat" implies that there were no tides in the experiment but "tracks" suggests the animal is actively following something that exists (at least in my opinion). Suggest rewording.
  • Reworded.
  • "Since 2002, the maximum annual catch limit for commercial harvesting in the area is 1,390 tonnes, but the total reported catch is far below this limit." - any estimates of the reported catch to give a notion of how far below the limit it is?
  • I've added reported numbers
  • "Harvesting slowly declined over time and, due to low biomass of A. stutchburyi, the fishery has been closed since late 2012." -- I assume harvesting also declined due to low biomass of A. stutchburyi, so I'd reword to start the sentence with the reason for both happenings.
  • Reworded.
  • In my opinion, a picture of a red tide is more interesting for the article than the Brevetoxin B5.
  • It would be, but there aren't any images of NZ red tides and I feel it would be misleading to use one from somewhere else.
  • "Since 1998, Māori often have customary fishing rights to harvest A. stutchburyi in some areas of cultural significance." -- often, but not always?
  • It's a sad reality that Māori sometimes don't have access to areas of cultural significance.
  • "Although sometimes A. stutchburyi may be kept in cages to protect them from predators while being transplanted, this increases mortality, possibly due to stress." -- what does "while being transplanted" mean here, transportation to the area of transplantation? Or are they left in the cages after being transplanted?
  • Reworded.
  • The picture of the Aotea Harbour lacks an alt text.
  • Added.
  • "A. stutchburyi is also capable of accumulating organic pollutants." -- here you use "pollutants", in the next sentence "contaminants". I suggest choosing and sticking to one to avoid confusion.
  • Made it more consistent.
  • I reworded the section on sea level rise, feel free to go over it.
  • Looks good to me.
Barbalalaika 🐌 12:08, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks again @Barbalalaika for you comments. I've replied to them all above. AxonsArachnida (talk) 06:44, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Aloy

[edit]
Nominator(s): -- ZooBlazer 22:21, 1 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Aloy is the main character in the Horizon video game series. This is the third article in the Horizon GT that I have brought to FAC in an attempt to eventually get the topic to a FT. I have only brought video games to FAC in the past, so this is my first character article. Courtesy ping for @Vacant0 who left me some helpful feedback on the peer review. -- ZooBlazer 22:21, 1 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Vacant0

[edit]

I have already reviewed this article as a GA and at PR. Nevertheless, I'll go through the article again and see if I missed something. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 22:43, 1 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

I gave another look at the article. No issues with the prose (besides what Phlsph7 mentioned). I have one question though. Gamepur is listed as a "situational source", therefore what does it make reliable in this case? Other sources appear to be reliable and of high quality. Support on prose. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 13:20, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@Vacant0 In this case it is covering something non controversial and there aren't many other options. There is an IGN ref that I can use, but I wasn't sure if it was better since to confirm the info, you have to scroll through a gallery instead of just scrolling the page/ctrl+f on the Gamepur article. -- ZooBlazer 15:49, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, good to know. Hopefully the source reviewer won't mind this. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 18:20, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Image Review - RandomEdits

[edit]

Hi ZB, I'll look at the images later today.

As an aside, one thing I noticed in a drive by read; you have a lot of 3/4-length ref bombs in the Critical Response. I'm generally fine with 3 sequential refs but I imagine the 4 refs is going to be an issue in your source review, and they could do with either being bundled up in a note or seeing if any of the less important ones could be removed. RandomEditsForWhenIRemember (talk)

Thanks for bringing that up. I have dropped redundant refs from those bundles. -- ZooBlazer 16:20, 2 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Great :)
  • Aloy (Horizon Zero Dawn).png - Justification is fine, but very minimal and not up to what's usually required for FA. I've added some stronger wording if you're happy with the changes.
More importantly, I don't see this image on https://www.playstation.com/en-us/horizon/community/ anywhere.
  • Ashly Burch (14703225936).jpg - Original source is dead, but luckily there was an archive for this and tagged correctly wit CC 2.0.
  • Horizon Forbidden West Burning Shores kiss.jpg - Justification is fine for this and I think the picture warrants inclusion based on the text that accompanies it.
  • E3 2018 (27900182017).jpg - All good, marked with CC 2.0 correctly
So it's just Aloy's main pic needing a source clarification.
One thing I wondered, had you considered adding another image between Ashly.jpg and kiss.jpg? There's approximately 2500 words of fairly dense paragraphs between the two images, so more of a visual break might help readers out. Including Joris de Man's picture in "Musical Theme" was the main idea that came to mind, but I'll leave that to you.
RandomEditsForWhenIRemember (talk) 11:01, 4 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@RandomEditsForWhenIRemember Huh, pretty sure it was in one of the cosplay guides and someone just made it a transparent background. All the guides I see are from the second game and not the first one, which is what the image was from. Would it work to update the source to this archive? It is what I remember seeing as the the original image of the file. -- ZooBlazer 16:58, 4 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I also added the image for Joris de Man. -- ZooBlazer 17:06, 4 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Great :)
I've done some digging and it looks like the original image came from Dan Calvert's artstation, which would be a better source than the fandom wiki.
https://dc_gg.artstation.com/projects/JQErv
(It'd be worth archiving this but web.archive seems to be down for me at the moment). RandomEditsForWhenIRemember (talk) 19:20, 4 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@RandomEditsForWhenIRemember Thanks for finding that! I updated the info on the file and managed to get the wayback machine to work long enough to get an archive. -- ZooBlazer 20:24, 4 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Nice - the Joris de Man picture is also completely fine so that's a pass for the image review.
Afraid I can't review the prose currently as I'll be busy for the next few weeks, but later on if you still need another pair of eyes feel free to ping me. Best of luck with your other reviews. RandomEditsForWhenIRemember (talk) 20:36, 4 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Phlsph7

[edit]

Hi ZooBlazer, happy to review the nomination. I don't know much about the topic itself, so I'll stick to prose comments.

  • American actress Ashly Burch voices her. This sentence in the first lead paragraph seems to be disconnected from what comes before and after. I think it would fit better into the 2nd lead paragraph where actress Hannah Hoekstra is discussed.
  • centreing replace with "centring"
  • and reflected her ongoing struggles replace "reflected" with "reflects"
  • Afterward I think British English prefers "Afterwards" per the template "Use British English"
  • Dark Horse released 1:9 scale statue add "a" after "released"
  • She appears as a minifigure in multiple Lego sets, which includes a 2022 Tallneck build replace "which includes" with "which include" or "including"
  • to survive a world that has been reclaimed by nature and overrun by the hostile machines. add "in" after "survive" and remove "the"
  • Guerrilla based Aloy's facial likeness was based on Dutch actress remove "was based"
  • lacking a mother, a young Aloy is determined remove "a" before "young"
  • her initial distant attitude towards those companions replace "initial" with "initially"
  • and the 2024 Remastered edition lower case for "Remastered"?
  • Sam Loveridge wrote that she reconciles with the legacy I presume "she" refers to "Aloy" and not to "Loveridge"; It might be good to replace the pronoun with the name
  • He compared this to real-world adoptive and mother-child relationships. I think "He" is supposed to refer to "Sam Loveridge" (female); replace with "Loveridge" to avoid pronoun confusion
  • first engage with her non-traditional role as an outsider ... through virtual photography before her romance with Seyka similar problem for the two pronouns "her", which could refer to "Aloy" or to "Allen"/"Connell"

Phlsph7 (talk) 16:27, 4 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@Phlsph7 I think everything has been addressed. Thanks! Let me know if there is anything else. -- ZooBlazer 17:49, 4 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good. A few more:
  • was a creative pivot that distanced the studio from the masculine tone of its previous Killzone franchise. maybe more encyclopedic tone: was a creative shift away from the masculine tone of the studio's previous Killzone franchise.
  • the type of armour the player equipped. remove "the player" for concision
  • specific lines or reactions felt true to Aloy's established personality. maybe better: specific lines and reactions aligned with Aloy's established personality
  • Gonzalez explained this early trauma created a deep compassion for others. It drove her curiosity about her origins and her willingness to help people in need, which the developers used as the narrative justification for her willingness to assist non-player characters (NPC) during side quests. sounds a little repetitive. Maybe better: Gonzalez explained this early trauma created a deep compassion for others and drove her curiosity about her origins, providing a narrative justification for her willingness to assist non-player characters (NPC) during side quests.
  • Bastien Ramisse explained that taking advantage of the advanced hardware of the PlayStation 5 maybe more concise: Bastien Ramisse explained that the PlayStation 5's advanced hardware
  • This allowed for enhanced facial a little repetitive since the previous sentence already uses the verb "allowed"
  • This narrative arc culminated in her meeting...This culminates in an optional "Flashpoint" dialogue repeats the verb "culminate"; switches from past tense to present tense
  • The instrumentation was kept minimalistic. Sparse arrangements of analogue synthesisers, cellos, and contrabass flutes are meant to evoke Aloy's isolated upbringing as an outcast and her underlying loneliness. Elven was originally recommended to the team by composer Ian Livingstone; de Man asked to "tack on" to their recording session to have Elven sing a short, minute-and-a-half phrase he had written. This approach relied on soloistic performances and improvisations. Elven's vocalisation is Aloy's "musical voice". also tense inconsistencies
Phlsph7 (talk) 09:07, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Phlsph7 Thanks for the additional comments. Everything should be fully addressed now. -- ZooBlazer 17:38, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
That addresses all the points that stood out to me. Otherwise, the prose looks good to me, so I support on prose. Phlsph7 (talk) 11:12, 7 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Gommeh

[edit]

I'd be interested in reviewing this, but my schedule at the moment is rather tight. Please ping me if I haven't said anything here in a few days. Gommeh (talk 🎮 sign) 15:39, 8 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Concept and design
[edit]
  • Aloy is a skilled machine huntress While I understand the meaning intended behind this, the wording here could imply that Aloy herself is a machine or a robot of some kind, especially for readers who are blind or who can't see the picture of her in the infobox. I would suggest rewording
  • She soon uncovers that a benevolent artificial intelligence created her as a genetic clone of the 21st-century scientist Dr. Elisabet Sobeck Would this make her non-human for purposes of the infobox? If so, the species parameter needs to be set.
    Nothing in the game suggests she isn't still a human.
  • Outside of video games, Aloy's narrative has been expanded in a comic book series published by Titan Comics. Is this important enough for the lead?
  • text
  • Sony anticipated that a female lead might pose a commercial risk, so they conducted market testing before approving the character Did they ever say why they thought this was risky? I see that in the next paragraph they mention the comparison to a Disney Princess; perhaps this should be moved?
  • De Jonge explained that Aloy was conceived as one of the initial three design elements. This sounds clunky, but I can't put my finger on why.
  • pushing for her to discover her augmented reality Focus device as a child What is a Focus device? This should be explained upon first mention.

I will do the rest of the sections later. In solidarity, Gommeh (talk 🎮 sign) 14:53, 13 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@Gommeh I have addressed everything so far. -- ZooBlazer 17:53, 13 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Appearances
[edit]

Several terms need explaining:

  • The text states that Aloy wins the tribe's Proving ritual but never explains what it is.
  • What is a Seeker and why do they matter?
  • The Hunter's Lodge is mentioned briefly, could use an explanation as to its role
  • What is the Eclipse Cult?
  • Why add the names of other tribes (e.g. Banuk)?
  • What is a Horus war machine?
  • What is a Daemon?
Reception
[edit]
  • Peter Tieryas of Kotaku wrote that optional mechanics, like speaking at her surrogate father Rost's grave, demonstrated her humanity and vulnerability could be reworded, but I am not sure how.
  • Retrospectives have identified her as a prominent protagonist of her console generation. This seems like a generalization; I would rephrase unless there's a source that proves that this is how retrospectives think in general.
  • As the franchise progressed, reviewers focused on Aloy's evolving emotional core, particularly her struggle to balance her independence with the legacy of her predecessor, Elisabet Sobeck. The phrase "emotional core" sounds off, and I question the decision to mention that Sobeck is her predecessor again since this is already brought up at an earlier point in the article.
  • VentureBeat argued that her reluctance to accept help occasionally "bordered on the extreme" - this and a few other instances should mention the name of the author in the prose, e.g. "John Smith of the New York Times".
  • Sony executives have described Aloy as a "PlayStation icon of the future". This isn't really reception, as Guerrilla is part of PlayStation Studios which is owned by Sony. It's fine, but it should go in the creation and design portion instead.
    This is something I meant to just delete long ago and I guess missed it or forgot, so it is now just removed entirely.
  • Is there any reception you can find about her appearance in Genshin Impact? Reference 48 (Sisi Jiang) seems like it might be worth using in the reception section.
    That ref seems to be the only one that focused on Aloy specfically and not just what she brought to the game. As a result it felt a little trivial to include in reception.
  • I personally would move the section on cultural impact and merchandise towards the top of the reception section, but this is personal preference.
    I ended up leaving it where it was. It felt like the best fit to me having reception about the game first.

That's all from me, please ping me when this is done. I currently have an FAC open at Firefly (Honkai: Star Rail) [nom] if anyone is interested in contributing there. In solidarity, Gommeh (talk 🎮 sign) 21:05, 15 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@Gommeh I think I have addressed everything in one way or another now. Thanks for the review! -- ZooBlazer 19:30, 16 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Gommeh Just a courtesy ping in case you didn't get the last ping. -- ZooBlazer 06:41, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I did but forgot to say something. Anyhow I support. Best of luck! In solidarity, Gommeh (talk 🎮 sign) 11:47, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Pamzeis

[edit]

I will try not to screw anything up!

  • "is a fictional character and the main protagonist" — are both needed? I mean, surely a protagonist would be fictional by default, right? And is "main" needed in front of protagonist, 'cuz a protagonist is by default the main character right? And also, does WP:PROTAGONIST apply here? (Sorry, lotta questions)
    Both are needed but I dropped "main" from protagonist. -- ZooBlazer
  • I'm not extremely keen on around half of the lead being taken up by a plot summary per MOS:FICTION; also doesn't seem consistent with the body where #Concept and design and #Reception take up a lot more prose compared with #Appearances
    It is organized by the paragraphs in the body. I did a little trim to get rid of some details that weren't needed in the lead. -- ZooBlazer
  • "the oversexualised tropes common in the video game industry" — seems like an opinion to me? I'm not entirely sure
  • "American actress Ashly Burch voices her" — I find the wording a bit awkward here
  • "This was a departure from the masculine tone of the studio's previous Killzone franchise." — Burch voicing her is a departure...? Or something else?
  • "scholarly analysis regarding her themes of ecofeminism and" — question: is "her" themes correct here?
  • "The concept of Aloy dates back to 2010 when Guerrilla Games art director Jan-Bart van Beek pitched an early concept for a game featuring her as the protagonist in a post-apocalyptic world reclaimed by nature and robotic dinosaurs." — wording feels almost off to me. I'm really sure how to explain it so bear with me here. The "her", to me, implies the final version, if that makes sense? Like she was fully conceptualised at that point? To me, it would make more sense if it was worded like "...pitched an early concept for a game featuring [description of how the character was at that point] as the protagonist..." Sorry, this comment is really long-winded, but I hope it makes sense.

I've not read a lot of the article so far, but I do wanna review this, so ping me if I go a few days without any comments. Pamzeis (talk) 05:02, 22 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@Pamzeis I have addressed all of these comments so far. Hopefully things have been better clarified as a result. -- ZooBlazer 18:06, 22 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Continuing my review:

  • Could the uses of "felt" be reduced a bit? It's used quite a few times, and sometimes, it feels a bit euphemistic.
  • "The team aimed to avoid industry trends of overly sexualising female characters" — same as earlier
  • "Her red hair and tribal braids were retained to avoid impractical fashion flourishes" — this is really nitpick-y, but I initially read "retained" as meaning retained from an earlier design, rather being retained, I'm assuming, regardless of which armour she's wearing. Could this be worded more clearly?
  • "physical and emotional equal who could understand her perspective" — is a bit awkward IMO
  • "In Burning Shores (2023), McCaw explained" — what is Burning Shores? It's not mentioned before this
  • "Equipping Seyka with a Focus helped cement this dynamic to mirror Aloy's past and ensure she felt like a genuine match" — any reason for why? As someone who's never played the game, I don't have enough knowledge to understand the significance of a Focus (at least, not ATP reading the article so far)
  • "latter features a full level based on" — I don't have much expertise on video games—is "full" needed here?
  • "critics observing her ability to bring humanity, confidence, and emotional depth to the role" — states an opinion as a fact
  • "journalists saw this fixed in Forbidden West" — wording is a bit awkward here
  • "the exaggerated, lighter take on her usually serious personality endearing, supported by a more comedic vocal performance from Burch" — I think it's unclear what Burch's performance is meant to be supporting here—the lighter take? The endearing-ness?

For the most part, I find the article very well-written and quite easy to follow. Pamzeis (talk) 07:15, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@Pamzeis I think I have cleaned up everything from your latest comments. -- ZooBlazer 18:19, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

[edit]

Referencing Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Jill Valentine/archive1 and Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Jill Valentine/archive2 because while they are old they show some of the challenges that FACses on fictional characters can face. Right off the bat I see the games are apparently used to source just the summaries of her plots, which makes me wonder if anything is missing/filtered through secondary sources, which adds a potential for error. Everything else seems reliable but note that I have to rely extensively on WP:VGRS since I don't know most of these sauces. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 11:30, 22 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus Do I need to added secondary sources for the appearances? This is the first character article I have worked on, and in the past with films and games I contributed to, the plots didn't require other sources but I'm not sure if it is different for characters. -- ZooBlazer 17:12, 22 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies for the intrusion. I wanted to provide some insight as I have worked on fictional character articles. I have used primary sources for this type of section in my own featured articles (like with Satsu (Buffy the Vampire Slayer) and Melaka Fray), and I have seen other featured articles do the same (like with Yeti (Doctor Who) and Ice Warrior). That being said, I can understand Jo-Jo Eumerus's comment. It could be helpful to look through secondary sources to see if there is any useful information that could be added to an appearances section.
I have admittedly not read this article, but it could be worthwhile to check and see. Just as an example, I have used secondary sources to more clearly verify and support information implied in the story but not as clearly or explicitly stated. Apologies again if this is not helpful, but I wanted to try and help, as I do have experience with this general topic (fictional characters). I hope that this helps and best of luck with your FAC! Aoba47 (talk) 01:51, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, my issue isn't that you are using the games to source the plots, but that you are using the games to source only the plots and nothing else. One wonders if, for example, details on her appearance that don't come up frequently in secondary sources were thus omitted. I know that folks occasionally handwave to WP:WEIGHT then to assert one needs secondary sources for these too, but that solved neither the second-hand error issue nor does e.g character description require a WEIGHT assessment much of the time. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:46, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Jo-Jo Eumerus I feel like the important details about her are pretty well covered in the other sections of the article so that the plot info is able to be more story focused and nothing is intentionally omitted for not being covered by secondary sources. Her physical appearance details for instance are covered in the Characterisation and casting, so it probably wouldn't be needed in the plot. Or am I misinterpreting what you are saying? -- ZooBlazer 08:02, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, you are misinterpreting - the issue isn't where you are putting the information, but whether you are not using the games as sources even for information like details on how she looks. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:16, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I see. Thank you for the clarification. Apologies again. I just wanted to pop in to try and help with this. Aoba47 (talk) 13:54, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Jo-Jo Eumerus Ah, okay. I added the game sources to a few spots in the article including her hair, her clothes, and her augmented reality device. -- ZooBlazer 17:28, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Ohen

[edit]
Nominator(s): Vanderwaalforces (talk) 11:24, 1 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Ohen was the eighth Oba ('king') of the Kingdom of Benin who reigned in the 14th century, generally dated to c. 1334 – c. 1370. He succeeded Udagbedo and was later succeeded by his eldest son, Egbeka after his death at about 1370. He is also the father of Ewuare the Great which is currently at FAC and has received significant supports for promotions, thanks to the feedback from @RoySmith, A.Cython, Gerda Arendt, Kowal2701, and Metalicat: Also, thank you so much to RoySmith for helping me discover more sources at PR which I used interestingly to expand this article.

I anticipate any comments regarding the WP:FACRIT, I can't thank you enough. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 11:24, 1 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Metalicat

[edit]

Coming to this as a non-specialist on Benin history, so this is prose, MoS and internal consistency, with one sourcing query I couldn't settle myself.

  • The Ekoko n'Utẹ origin is cited to Paton Jr 1981 at pp. 119–120, and again at p. 120. I went to confirm it and want to flag rather than assert. The bound Kiabàrà vol. 4 does contain the Ohen-and-Elere royal-romance festival material at a pp. 119–120, so the content is real. But that volume binds several separately-paginated articles, and Adell Patton Jr's own record gives his Kiabàrà 4:2 paper (pp. 105–125) as "Oral Tradition in the Reconstruction of Ningi History", i.e. 19th-century northern Hausaland, which is nothing to do with Benin festival drama. So the pp. 119–120 Ohen material looks likely to come from a different article in the volume rather than Patton's. Could you confirm the author and title of the piece the pp. 119–120 material actually comes from? If it isn't Patton, the citations here would need the correct author.
Confirmed the Ohen/Elere sentence is on p. 120, so the content's there. I still can't get the byline from snippet view, and two things make me think it isn't Patton's. Searching the same volume for "Sokoto" also lands on a p. 120, carrying Patton's Ningi and Mahdist material, which can't be the same page as the Benin romance if it's one article. And the volume's contents page seems to put Gloria Thomas-Emeagwali's "Perspectives on the Reconstruction of the African Past" at p. 120, with Patton's piece lower down, though it's too blurred for me to be certain. Neither of us has the physical volume, so this probably needs a proper scan to settle. If p. 119–120 turn out to be Thomas-Emeagwali's, the cites need reattributing; if they're Patton's, happy to be wrong. I can usually run down even obscure scholarship, but short of keeping a Port Harcourt journal run in the spare room, this one's eluded me. Metalicat (talk) 15:39, 1 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Metalicat So, what do I do at this point? Lol! Vanderwaalforces (talk) 15:51, 1 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I've chased this as far as the open web goes and can't settle the byline from here, the volume's snippet-only on Google Books, not on JSTOR or MUSE, and the reviews I can find are of other Kiabàrà volumes. So here's where it stands: the Ohen/Elere sentence is definitely on p. 120; Gloria Emeagwali's Walter Rodney article is definitely in this volume (per her own publication list); and the contents page appears to start her article at p. 120, which would put the Ohen material in her piece, not Patton's. I can't read that contents page clearly enough to be certain though. What settles it is the running head or byline on the actual pp. 119–120, which needs the physical volume: WorldCat will show which libraries hold Kiabàrà vol. 4, and WP:RX can usually get you a scan of the contents page and pp. 119–120 from one of them, the running head names the author outright. If it comes back Emeagwali, the cite just needs reattributing; the claim itself is fine either way, since Obuh and Curnow already support it. Happy to leave it for the source reviewer if you'd rather not chase a scan now. Metalicat (talk) 16:21, 1 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
One addition to my comment: Since Obuh and Curnow already carry the Ekoko n'Utẹ point, dropping the Kiabàrà cite is cleaner than reattributing it on a guess, unless WP:RX turns up a scan that names the author. Metalicat (talk) 16:39, 1 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Metalicat TBH, I am going with this, I just removed it now. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 16:45, 1 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Paralysis and concealment: recorded by author Heather Millar in his 1997 book — Millar is a woman (catalogued as "Millar, Heather, 1963-"), so this wants her. In the same sentence, state that the revelation should be states, to agree with "tradition".
    • Very correct, fixed. –VWF
  • Guilds and court organisation: before Ohen's period. archaeologist Graham Connah's excavations — "archaeologist" opens the sentence and needs a capital.
  • The name is Elẹrẹ throughout, but twice appears as Elere without the subdots in the Ekoko n'Utẹ masquerade section. Worth a consistency pass, unless that deliberately follows the spellings in the cited sources.
  • Minor (MOS:DUPLINK): Ikpoba River is linked three times within "Legends and oral traditions" (twice under the Elẹrẹ traditions, once under the masquerade); the guideline would keep just the first.

Metalicat (talk) 12:26, 1 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@Metalicat Thank you for your feedback. Please look at my reply to your first point above. Tysm! Vanderwaalforces (talk) 14:51, 1 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Checked the removal has landed cleanly, no orphaned citations, and the Ekoko n'Utẹ material now rests on Obuh and Curnow, which is solid. One tiny knock-on: the masquerade section opens Several sources link Ohen with the origins, and with the Kiabàrà cite gone that's now two sources, so perhaps Oral traditions and later scholarship link Ohen with the origins or simply name Curnow and Obuh. With that, all my points are resolved. Support on prose, MoS and internal consistency. Metalicat (talk) 22:05, 1 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, true. Fixed, thank you so much! Vanderwaalforces (talk) 22:10, 1 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Noleander

[edit]
  • Consider establishing the setting by adding a few more sentences to "Background" section. Although the article does is not required to define/summarize the kingdom that the king reigned (after all, readers can click on the wikilinks); it would be help some lay readers if the article was a bit more standalone. Consider adding 1 to 3 sentences at the start of the "Background" that tell the reader:
    • What is the kingdom
    • When did the kingdom exist
    • Where is it in modern africa
    • What is the big-picture situation at the time of Ohen (is it a time of warfare? of peace? of growth?)
    • Define the word "Oba" again (gloss in lead may not be noticed by some readers)
  • InfoBox/Sidebar image caption could be clearer to casual readers first looking at the article: "A mudfish-legged figure of an Oba, possibly Ohen symbolising his paralysis". Many readers won't know what "Oba" is since they have not yet read the body text. Maybe "This copper figure of an Edo leader may represent Ohen." or "The mudfish legs on this figure of an Edo leader may represent Ohen's paralysis" or similar?
    • I like "The mudfish legs on this figure of an Edo leader may represent Ohen's paralysis", thanks! –VWF
  • Wording: "Mudfish-legged royal figures appear on Benin plaques, carved ivory tusks, and other royal arts, and their interpretation is not limited to a literal representation of Ohen's paralysis." Literal doesn't seem correct there. Is "figurative" or "symbolic" better? Or even omit the word: " ... their interpretation is not limited to a representation of Ohen's paralysis"
    • Removed. –VWF
  • Double period at end of quotes: ... leadership of the Esere.". and ... Osodin, is traced to Ewedo.". I think the MOS guidelines say that only one period should be displayed in that situation: inside the quote if the quote includes a period; or outside the quote if not.
    • Ah true, fixed. –VWF
  • Quotes needed in citations? Several cites in Citation section contain quotes, e.g. ...Ryder 1969, p. 6, "As the latter title is of more recent origin than that ..." They kinda make the Citation section ugly. Normally quotes would only be displayed there if the material the citation applies to is contentious or astounding. Is that the case here? Consider eliminating those quotes, or moving the quotes into an explanatory efn footnote (adjacent to the cite). This is just a suggestion, not required for FA.
    • Removed quotes. –VWF
  • The "Show Ref Check" tool says that book sources do not use the "location" (city) field consistently: " Inconsistent use of Publisher Location (1 with; 7 without)". Suggest that all 8 books should include location or exclude it.
    • Removed the only one. –VWF
  • More consistency with dashes: The article has many n-dashes in page # ranges, and also lots of n-dashes in the NavBoxes at bottom ... so the few m-dashes in the quote/loc field of some cites is a bit jarring e.g. " that of Umangue—almost". Although MOS:DASH permits that type of inconsistency, consider changing those few m-dashes to spaced n-dashes. The fact that the m-dashes are inside quotes is not relevant: The MOS permits changes to dashes within quotes if it enhances overall uniformity.
  • Overly detailed attribution: "Academics Ediagbonya Michael, Aluko Yemi, and Abiodun Duyile in Journal of Humanities and Social Sciences Research wrote that Ohen introduced..." and "Academic Heidi Nast in Servants of the Dynasty: Palace Women in World History recorded oral traditions ..." Readers sometimes benefit from the name the scholar(s), but also naming the book/journal should only be done if there is a strong reason (e.g. the book is famous; or the journal is contentious). Including book/journal names here gives the appearance that the editor of the article is trying to pad-out the word count :-) Consider removing name of book/journal.
  • Multiple names in attribution: "Academics Ediagbonya Michael, Aluko Yemi, and Abiodun Duyile in ..." Making the reader read three full names before getting to the fact of the sentence is not friendly. Naming a scholar is not required except when the fact being presented is controversial or contentious or potentially biased. Readers can click on the citation to see the author names. When there is only a single author, it is not too harmful to display the author name. But three is annoying (absent bias/controversy). Consider omitting the names here, or using only last names; or only the primary author.
  • Word use? "...even though their literal accuracy cannot ..." Not sure the word "literal" is required here, or - if some qualifier to "accuracy" is requried - that "literal" is the best qualifier.
    • Removed. –VWF
  • That's all I have for now. Great article! Ping me when you have considered the above. Noleander (talk) 13:17, 1 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    @Noleander Thank you for your insightful review. I replied above. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 14:50, 1 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Article is looking pretty good. I'm not finding too much that needs improvement. Following up on a thought above: Can the article include some brief overview information in the Background section so readers unfamiliar with Africa can get oriented. Such as:
    • What is the kingdom?
    • When did the kingdom exist?
    • Where is it in modern Africa?
    • What is the big-picture situation at the time of Ohen (is it a time of warfare? of peace? of growth?)
The goal is to help lay readers understand where, when, why and how Ohen lived. Noleander (talk) 17:19, 1 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Noleander In addition to the current footnote I have which says The Kingdom of Benin no longer exists as a governing entity, but the Oba of Benin still rules a tribal kingdom and holds an advisory role in the government of Benin City, Nigeria. I want to add the following... is this sufficient?
The Kingdom of Benin was a polity centred on Benin City and comprising the capital and several hundred villages. Benin City lay in the forest zone west of the Niger River, in what is now southern Nigeria's Edo State. Its early chronology is uncertain, as traditions relating to the period before Portuguese contact lack written documentation. British forces captured Benin City in 1897. Before the Portuguese first visited Benin in 1485, Benin City was already the centre of a large and structurally complex political entity. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 18:19, 1 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that is a good start. In addition to that, is it possible to add a sentence or 2 that gives a summary of what the kingdom was like in the 14th century. Prosperity: Rich/poor? Nature of food production: Agricultural? farming? Herding? Relations with neighbors: wars? peace? isolated? Size: Number of people in the kingdom? Events: any major events in that century: wars? famine? explorations? natural disasters?
Anything that paints a picture so readers can place Ohen in context: what kind of nation was he leading? How did that nation interact with neighbors & the outside world? Noleander (talk) 22:16, 1 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Noleander I have added what I was able to come up with to the background. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 22:53, 1 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support based on prose and MOS. I have not done a source check or image check. The coverage of the article is a bit skimpy on details, but that is probably due to the fact that events were in the 1300s and most of the historical record is oral rather than written. In that situation, a shortage of details is understandable, and is not a barrier to achieving FA status. Noleander (talk) 23:04, 2 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

MSincccc

[edit]
Background and accession
  • We could delink Nigeria, as for most countries.
  • Consider linking to Earthworks (archaeology).
  • Traditions concerning Ohen describe a political setting formed by dynastic consolidation and tensions involving the Ogiamiẹn lineage.
    • Any way in which we can know more about the Ogiamiẹn lineage?
      • Added footnote. –VWF
Reign
  • We could link to kaolin and regalia.
  • "A similar version by Curnow" → "A similar version by Kathy Curnow"
    • Full name on first mention.
  • Mudfish-legged royal figures appear on Benin plaques, carved ivory tusks, and other royal arts, and their
    • Drop the comma after "ivory tusks"?
  • "remove him after they left" → "remove him after they had left"
  • "Academics Osarhiemen et al similarly noted that" → "Osarhiemen et al similarly noted that"
  • "Urhonigbe is a town about 60 miles away from Benin City." → "Urhonigbe is a town about 60 miles from Benin City."

MSincccc (talk) 05:13, 2 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Legends and oral traditions
Succession and legacy
  • Traditions state that Egbeka fought civil wars against the Uzama Nihinron ('kingmakers') and was regarded as ineffective in governance.
    • Do we know anything about the number of wars that were fought? No worries, if not though.
      • Not really. –VWF
Lead
  • None except stylistic suggestions.
Bottom line

Image review – pass

[edit]
  • Images are relevant and enhance the article.
  • Brooklyn Museum 56.6.72 Human Figure with Mudfish legs.jpg in the infobox has a relevant CC license and alt entry for accessibility.
  • Nigeria, regno del benin, edo, zanna per altare reale, 1810 ca. 03.jpg has a relevant PD license and US tag and alt entry for accessibility.
  • Plaque-figurative-aura-x-02-09.jpg has a relevant PD license and US tag and alt entry for accessibility.
  • Altar Bell - Fish-Legged King - Front - Benin Empire.jpg has a relevant CC PD license and alt entry for accessibility.
  • There are no image of the subject, which is likely to be rare, as noted by Noleander, by the the fact that events were in the 1300s and most of the historical record is oral. Are there any available? simongraham (talk) 05:55, 7 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    @Simongraham Thank you so much! It’s been a while :) anyway, yeah it’s mostly those plaques and brass-cast that are available. I am so convinced though that the royal palace might have useful images but I wonder when or if I’ll ever visit. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 06:17, 7 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    @Vanderwaalforces: Now, that would be interesting! The museums locally are fascinating. In lieu of that, I am happy to pass the image review. simongraham (talk) 21:09, 7 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Gommeh

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Support as GA reviewer. I am no expert on African history, but from what I can see the article is largely the same as when I reviewed it for GA. I have no issues with this. Gommeh (talk 🎮 sign) 15:37, 8 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

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Placeholder, the review will be done in the following days.A.Cython(talk) 22:45, 22 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

I was invited by the nominator to do a source review of the current article. This is my second source review, so any comments are welcomed.

The article has 59 citations.

I will start with some comments and then proceed with a spot check:

  • Bradbury, Robert Elwyn (2017) mv wikilink (author and publisher) to the first instance

Spot check:

  • #3 Bradbury 2018, p. 7 Checks out, using the 1973 edition, note that the source provides the distance from the river, perhaps this is a useful information to the reader.
  • #7 Bradbury 2017, p. 14 Checks out
  • #12 Egharevba 1968, p. 12 Checks out
  • #16 Layiwola 2003, p. 55 Checks out
  • #19a Ben-Amos 1978, p. 49 The story checks out but I failed to see the point of The version then returns to the wider Ohen tradition, personally I do not think it adds much.
    • The version then returns to the wider Ohen tradition in which the Iyase investigated the king's condition, was executed, and was later avenged by chiefs who later killed Ohen.[19]
      The Iyase grew suspicious of Ohen's council practices and hid in the chamber to investigate.[13] When discovered, he was executed on Ohen's orders       I find this redundant, it felt like Déjà vu.
      • I think it depends on the viewpoint you're reading it from; I had to summarise that there instead of telling a story I already told. What I mean is, I couldn't have possibly stopped at explaining why the king had stopped visiting. and went straight to The Iyase grew suspicious of Ohen's council practices. It will leave the former trailing and missing context somehow. –VWF
  • #19b Ben-Amos 1978, p. 49 Checks out
  • #25 Egharevba 1968, p. 13 Checks out
  • #27 Soppelsa 1996, p. 47 Checks out, with some issues:
    • Robert Thomas Soppelsa described the mudfish-legged figure within the "linked supporting triad" as a motif that combined royal authority, spiritual power, elite support, and political restraint. The source presents the quote being told by Barbara Blackmun, but here it reads as if Robert Thomas Soppelsa said it.
      • I have reatrributed this and did a bit of tweak to fit in. –VWF
    • The central figure has been interpreted as Ohen, as Olokun supported by other deities, as Ohen supported by Olokun and Osanobua, as the Oba supported by the Edaiken ('crown prince') and the Ezomo,[c] or as the Oba supported by the high priests Osa and Osuan. I have hard time following this sentence, consider rewrite. Also the source has the names of the priests as osa and osuan.
      • I have broken it into two parts for easy flow. –VWF
  • #34 Ben-Amos 1978, p. 50 Checks out
  • #37 Ben-Amos 1978, p. 51 Checks out
  • #42 Curnow 2017, p. 27 Checks out
  • #46 Curnow 2017, p. 21-22 I do not see this conclusion, share a quote
    • Curnow writes on p. 22: One explicitly linked the lover, paralysis, the masquerade, and Ogun's birth to 'the dispute that will never be settled'. She then explains that the Ẹkiokpagha Treaty prohibited marriage between the royal and Ogiamiẹn families and that Ohen sought such a marriage because he believed it would settle the dispute and questions concerning his dynastic rule. I have just revised the sentence to follow the source more precisely and closely. –VWF
  • #51 Curnow 2017, p. 25 Checks out
  • #57 Curnow 2017, p. 26 Checks outA.Cython(talk) 05:37, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    @A.Cython: Thank you so much for finding time to look at this. I have replied above. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 15:22, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Seattle Kraken

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Nominator(s): XR228 (talk) 22:00, 28 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

The Seattle Kraken are the second-newest team in the National Hockey League. Trying to get this to FA status for the fourth time. Hopefully we can all get along. Thank you. XR228 (talk) 22:00, 28 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. It does not appear that the MOS:INTRO issue from the previous nomination has been addressed. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:33, 29 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@Nikkimaria: If this is all we need to do to fix all the commotion, then I guess we should go for it. I made the change. XR228 (talk) 06:25, 29 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
It's been reverted. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:39, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria: If it really does not fit MOS, do we need to have the extra location info in the lead? It would be easier for everyone to just let it be. XR228 (talk) 08:02, 7 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Discussed more than once in various places and listing "city" or "city, state" (if city's page has it) is enough. Other GA or FA pages use this and there is no problem elsewhere. – sbaio 16:09, 7 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
There is absolutely no MOS problem with including location context. There is a MOS problem in having an introduction that is not accessible to a broad audience or requires people to follow links to get that context. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:48, 7 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
[[Seattle, Washington]], in the United States is not a MOS violation. Wikilinking [[United States]] is. Bgsu98 (Talk) 00:27, 8 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Bgsu98@Nikkimaria If having the location like how it is now is common practice in several other FAs, then why should this be different? And to everyone, this is a trivial discussion which prevented this FA-worthy article from not reaching that level last time, so please find a way to work it out. Thank you. XR228 (talk) 05:51, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I don't really care at this point. Bgsu98 (Talk) 06:10, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Following the style guidelines is part of the FA criteria; if there are other FAs with issues, they should be fixed. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:50, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria @Sbaio we need to come to a conclusion on this or else we'll be arguing forever XR228 (talk) 21:32, 11 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@XR228 @Nikkimaria @Sbaio @XR228, based on my knowledge on MOS:GEOLINK, I am pretty sure the way it works is that only the first link should be made, and there should be no piped links (Except for maybe usage at Connor Bedard for example where the city ends in disambiguation, or is necessary when article title of link ends in country and doesn't have region in it, and the region is listed between city and country), although I have had disagreements over places in the United States, such as Buffalo, New York being an example for all cities in the United States, which I thoroughly disagree with. The example set by MOS:GEOLINK in my view is that whatever the article title is, only that should be linked, and thoroughly believe that Quothquan, South Lanarkshire, Scotland does not in any way set examples for Scotland, but rather sets an example that if an article on a city anywhere in the world is just "City", than it should only link to the article on that city with no piped links whatsoever. For example, I believe that "Livingston, West Lothian, Scotland" is a correct link over "Livingston, West Lothian, Scotland". So I believe that MOS:GEOLINK applies by article title of links, and not by country. Anyways, it is probably best to eventually reach a conclusion on this, and then just move on to focus on this discussion. Servite et contribuere (talk) 19:30, 13 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Servite et contribuere: So what changes would you suggest be made to this article? XR228 (talk) 19:33, 13 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@XR228: "Seattle" is enough as city does not have a state in its article name. In addition, Seattle has links in 158 languages and only 8 links from other language Wikipedias link to "Seattle, Washington" or "Seattle (Washington)" so Seattle is universally known as just "Seattle" and it is perfectly fine to omit the state. I also have quite clearly indicated the last time that I would not be against using "Seattle, United States" if it puts this to rest, but that was ignored by everyone. – sbaio 17:26, 14 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Sbaio That’s what I thought. I think this discussion is pretty much over. XR228 (talk) 17:30, 14 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from ZooBlazer

[edit]
  • "However" is used to begin three different sentences in the lead (However, they lost..., However, during the..., However, these changes...) which is a bit repetitive.
  • Even though the 1917 Metropolitans were the first United States-based team to win the Stanley Cup, the team's arena was sold in 1924, and the team folded shortly thereafter --> "Although the 1917 Metropolitans..."
  • A plan was made where if the team could not stay in Glendale... is slightly clunky. Change it to something like: "Under a contingency plan, if the team could not stay in Glendale..."
  • Exactly a year after the memorandum of understanding, the NHL Board of Governors -- It might be helpful to the reader to state the date (December 4, 2018) rather than making them reference previous context.
  • More than a month later, the organization hired Dave Hakstol as their inaugural head coach. Again, it is usually better to provide the exact date (June 24) rather than making the reader calculate it from the preceding date.
  • they did worse is used to describe the 2024–25 season. It should be replaced with something more encyclopedic like "regressed".
  • Jones backstopped the Kraken through seven games uses sports jargon which needs to be replaced.
  • starting with the team's January 1, 2022, home game against the New York Islanders --> "...starting with the team's home game against the New York Islanders on January 1, 2022."
  • The colors chosen for the team's logo were ice blue, boundless blue, shadow blue and red alert. -- Add a serial comma for consistency with other uses in the article.
  • The first time players were seen wearing Kraken uniforms was at the 2021 NHL expansion draft --> "Kraken players first wore the uniforms at the 2021 NHL expansion draft"
  • He is a reference to and is based on the Fremont Troll, a sculpture in Fremont -- Try to avoid the repetition of "Freemont" if possible
  • As is standard practice for NHL teams, the Kraken maintain affiliations... --> "The Kraken maintain affiliations with minor league teams for player development."

For the most part the article looks to be in decent shape. Hopefully things go better for you than the previous FAC noms for the team. I also have an open FAC if you would be interested in reviewing it. If not, no worries. -- ZooBlazer 16:29, 7 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@ZooBlazer: I have made the changes. XR228 (talk) 17:42, 7 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good. Support. -- ZooBlazer 18:36, 7 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose from Bgsu98

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Oppose by Nick-D

[edit]

The lead and body of the article includes statements that are not supported by the references. I checked two statements that appear to be opinion:

  • "During the 2023–24 season, the team struggled offensively" (lead) and "The Kraken struggled offensively in their third season, ranking 29th in the league in goals, with only 217" (body) - this is cited to a website comprising only tables of statistics for this team, so does not support the statement of opinion that the team "struggled offensively". The website also appears to state that the Kraken scored 214 goals, not 217.
  • I can't see where in the body of the article the claim in the lead that "These changes did little to help, as the Kraken finished the 2025–26 season with 79 points" is cited. This seems to be opinion, and it may have been the case that the changes prevented an even worse result. Nick-D (talk) 01:35, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Nick-D: I have made the changes. XR228 (talk) 20:06, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I'll strike the oppose, but I think that this needs a careful source review. It's quite concerning that these types of statements were in the article on its 4th FAC. Nick-D (talk) 22:57, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Ben Roberts-Smith

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Nominator(s): TarnishedPathtalk 13:01, 27 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Ben Roberts-Smith, holder of a Victoria Cross for Australia, who has been described as the most decorated living Australian soldier. TarnishedPathtalk 13:01, 27 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

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Here shall be an image review from me! Arconning (talk) 13:53, 27 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

  • File:Ben Roberts-Smith-2015.jpg - CC BY-SA 4.0
  • File:Corporal Ben Roberts-Smith VC investiture.jpg - CC BY 3.0, source link needs to be updated
  • File:Ben Roberts-Smith and Mark Donaldson in 2011.jpg - CC BY 3.0, source link needs to be updated
  • File:Ben Roberts-Smith medals December 2011 (cropped).JPG - CC BY-SA 3.0
  • File:Ben Roberts-Smith's uniform at the AWM March 2026.jpg - CC BY-SA 4.0
  • File:Governor-General attends Cross Your Heart event (1).jpg - CC BY 3.0, source link needs to be updated
  • All of the images have alt-text for accessibility, are relevant to the article, and have proper captioning.
@Arconning: the issue of source links having rotted was brought up during the A-Class review. I've just tried searching again and I've been unable to find any working links. Do you recommend removing the three images? TarnishedPathtalk 05:37, 28 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@TarnishedPath I do believe it'd be best to remove them to avoid the issues brought up. Arconning (talk) 09:23, 29 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Arconning, I've removed the three images and added another which is public domain. See Special:Diff/1361361713/1361658008. TarnishedPathtalk 09:46, 29 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Pass. Arconning (talk) 13:01, 30 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Support Review by from angrysunbird

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I don't normally review non-biological articles but this nomination needs some love so here goes. Not an expert but my family is Aussie military (and at least one of my aunts was a fan. Haven't asked here about it lately).

  • So about that... you didn't bury the lede in the article but you did in your summary about why Ben is well known now in the nomination. As for its relevance to this review, I've taken a look and the article seems fairly stable for such a controversial figure.
  • judge advocate general Why is this role not linked to its article Judge Advocate General (Australia) and capitalised as it is in that article?
Linked and capitalised.
  • Roberts-Smith developed a reputation for intimidating smaller students at school - any indication of how early? By phrasing it this way, while referring to "high school" in the next line re:sports - it seems to imply he was a bully (allegedly) in primary school. Is this reading accurate?
The relevant passage in McKenzie's book comes after another which states that he had left another Perth college to attend "Perth's exclusive Hale School". The section reads "In the schoolyard, Roberts-Smith developed a reputation for standing over those who were smaller than him, which by his later high school years left an entire student cohort to intimidate. Those on the receiving end tell of an outsider who appeared to use his size to feel in control." For reference Roberts-Smith is reported as being 6'7" (202cm). Unfortunately nothing as specific as we'd like.
Okay. Sabine's Sunbird talk 03:58, 5 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • After completing basic training at Blamey Barracks in Kapooka - why is the School of Infantry at Lone Pine Barracks linked in the next sentence but Army Recruit Training Centre not linked in this one? And if we are being consistent, wouldn't it be training at Army Recruit Training Centre at Blamey Barracks?
Updated as suggested.
  • He took part in preparations to evacuate Australian citizens from Fiji in 2004 and was part of Security Detachment Iraq throughout 2005 and 2006. This statement follows directly on from a sentence saying he was widely deployed in Southeast Asia. Neither of the two postings listed her are in SE Asia and no examples of a posting there are given, if none exist (and I get they may be classified) an also or as well near the start will clarify this is in addition to the SE Asia deployments. Also, The statement about what he did in Fiji could use a little context - I assume it was in regards to the flooding in 2004?
Added also.
And the evacuation? Sabine's Sunbird talk 03:58, 5 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
The sources I've read so far don't say much about it, just that it was an operation evacuating Australian citizens. Given the year, you're probably correct that it was regarding the flooding; however, the sourcing doesn't make that clear. As you've pointed out, a lot of what he's done is probably classified and a lot of the sourcing for some things is official accounts (War Memorial or Department of Defence). TarnishedPathtalk 03:10, 7 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Roberts-Smith was deployed to Afghanistan on six occasions, in 2006, 2007, 2009, 2010 and 2012. - Is this all that can be said about the wider purpose of his deployment beyond the specific incidents that follow? Surely some context regarding his Service's deployment could be provided here, even if we have little else about the rest of his deployment (again, I understand why the latter might be absent, but it may be worth even mentioning that a lot of info is classified?)
I've adjusted the small section to read "Roberts-Smith was deployed to Afghanistan on six occasions, in 2006, 2007, 2009, 2010 and 2012, as part of the SASR, which conducted long-range covert intelligence, reconnaissance and strike operations, often behind enemy lines. The regiment's operations have been characterised as secretive." TarnishedPathtalk 10:59, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Better, but still leaves a lot unsaid. You need to click on to "deployed to Afghanistan" to see which conflict is even being discussed. Maybe something like "Deployed to Afghanistan as part of Australia's contribution to the western War in Afghanistan (2001-2021) or something like that? Sabine's Sunbird talk 03:03, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Done. TarnishedPathtalk 03:11, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Roberts-Smith had threatened to shoot them in the back of the head - is the them in this sentence the junior soldier with the jammed rifle? Maybe clarify?
Done.
Junior is now inconsistently capitalised between the two lines. Sabine's Sunbird talk 03:46, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. It should be lowercase in all locations now. This is something Hawkeye also pointed out below. TarnishedPathtalk 03:59, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • as a patrol second-in-command (2IC) was he commanding the patrol in the previous section (medal for gallantry)? I assume not but it is not clear - he makes a number of decisions (to go after the teen (with Locke) and to divide the patrol) but would surely be outranked by Locke.
You're correct that he was outranked by Locke. I think part of the confusion was with how things had been termed in the prose. The term "patrol" was used, when the War Memorial source used "team". His decision to divide the team came after Roberts-Smith was tasked as part of a two man team of moving out to neutralise the Taliban. I've made the change from "patrol" -> "team". Hopefully that makes it clearer.
  • With air support, Roberts-Smith and his patrol were able to move within 70 metres of their opponent's positions. The patrol advanced on the insurgent position but were pinned down by sustained fire 40 metres from their objective. It's not clear what the significance of the first stament is given to reach 40 metres they would have to have also passed 70 metres as well.
I've adjusted the two sentences to read "With air support, Roberts-Smith and his patrol manoeuvred to within 70 metres of their opponents' positions to launch an assault. When the assault began, the patrol drew sustained fire and was unable to advance beyond 40 metres from their objective." I think this makes it clearer. Please advise if otherwise.
  • Roberts-Smith's patrol was still pinned down by machine gun fire from three positions. this would read better if it was "the rest of his patrol"
Done.
  • During defamation proceedings in 2022, the awarding of the VC to Roberts-Smith was questioned, while this is true, it would be just as valid to say "the entire account was questioned". I know it does in the next part of the sentence, but focusing on the award seems slightly off.
I've replaced the whole sentence with "During defamation proceedings in 2022, testimony from multiple SASR members suggested that the events underlying the award may have been fabricated, calling into question the account for which Roberts-Smith received the VC."
  • In 2012, Roberts-Smith was deployed to a rotation in Afghanistan as a patrol commander and held the rank of corporal. Might it be better to say His final deployment to Afghanistan was in 2012, by which time he had been promoted to corporal was served as a patrol commander. Gives a sense of narrative flow.
Done with minor adjustment, "Roberts-Smith's final deployment to Afghanistan was in 2012, by which time he had been promoted to corporal and served as a patrol commander."
  • Seven Queensland - maybe link? I know we don't overlink but I don't think it has been mentioned once since the lede.
Linked. I've recently been going aggressively against any sort of overlinking, but you are correct it wasn't mentioned once since the lead.
I have more to go but need to step out, I'll keep reviewing later. Sabine's Sunbird talk 03:28, 3 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, that's almost all of this section done. I'm aware that I haven't addressed the sixth dot point as yet and plan to come back to it. If I later on forget, please draw my attention to it. I'm still recovering from having the flu on the weekend so I won't do anymore tonight. TarnishedPathtalk 11:40, 8 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, let's continue:
  • Following the publication of Chris Masters's No Front Line book in October 2017, Fairfax Media's Nick McKenzie and the ABC's Dan Oakes covered the story, linking the case to an ongoing inquiry by the Inspector-General of the Australian Defence Force into criminal misconduct on the battlefield by special forces; an inquiry that resulted in the Brereton Report. - Run on sentence. More importantly, this is the first time that war crimes are mentioned in the main body of the article - and the sentence is written like that idea had alredy been introduced. Break up this sentence and add a starter sentence introducing the news of allegations breaking to add some context.
Updated to 'In October 2017, journalist Chris Masters published No Front Line, a history of Australian special forces in Afghanistan. The book drew attention to discrepancies between Roberts-Smith's own accounts of a 2006 incident in which he and Matthew Locke killed an Afghan man they suspected of being a Taliban spotter. ABC's Dan Oakes reported on the book, linking it to an ongoing inquiry by the Inspector-General of the Australian Defence Force into criminal misconduct by special forces on the battlefield. That inquiry later produced the Brereton Report. Responding to the coverage in an interview with The Australian, Roberts-Smith described the scrutiny as "un-Australian".' I hope this is what you were looking for. The sources initially didn't directly accuse of war crimes.
Better, but:
  • Did Dan Oakes report on the book outside his capacity as an ABC journalist? Or was he the journalist that led ABC's coverage?
  • For non-Aussies it may be worth saying "ABC News's Dan Oakes" or ABC News journalist Dan Oakes, as this is the first time the organisation is mentioned and will not be well known outside Aussie
  • Presumably the Brereton report was the culmination of the inquiry (which incidentally is referred to as the Brereton inquiry later but not here) - so maybe provide a date when the report was published and what impact it had - again that is perhaps alluded to later but this report is only touched on tangentially.
Updated to "In October 2017, journalist Chris Masters published No Front Line, a history of Australian special forces in Afghanistan. The book drew attention to discrepancies between Roberts-Smith's own accounts of a 2006 incident in which he and Matthew Locke killed an Afghan man they suspected of being a Taliban spotter. ABC News journalist Dan Oakes reported on the book, linking it to the ongoing Brereton inquiry, an inquiry by the Inspector-General of the Australian Defence Force into criminal misconduct by special forces on the battlefield. The inquiry's findings, the Brereton Report, were published on 19 November 2020. The report recommended that dozens of incidents involving current and former special forces personnel be referred for criminal investigation. Responding to the publication of Masters's book, Roberts-Smith described it as inaccurate and called the scrutiny of his record "un-Australian". He also said the book was damaging to the legacy of Locke, who had been killed in action."
This sort of breaks chronology a little bit, but there is a thematic connection, so I guess it works. Let me know what you think. TarnishedPathtalk 09:06, 13 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
It does make the chronology a little hard to parse, yes. Digging deeper, I think this section still needs something. This article draws attention to the book No Front Line, but when you click on the link to the general section on war crimes, it discusses the series of stories by ABC stories :The Afghan Files. It might be worth summarising the chronology of the breaking of the story entirely in the first paragraph, namely the opening of the investigation by Samantha Crompvoets (who isn't named in this article), the book and news stories (including the raid) and then how Roberts-Smith got embroiled. Then leave the fact that that early investigation woiuld lead to the Brereton Report, but move the conclusions of the report down to "investigation", around teh point where the text discusses the report again (The Commonwealth Director of Public Prosecutions later decided that the original AFP investigation could not lead to a prosecution because of the likelihood that information it had received from the Brereton inquiry). Sabine's Sunbird talk 03:03, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Sabine's Sunbird, see Special:Diff/1365113431/1365116046. I've taken material about Crompvoets that I was working on in my sandbox and incorporated it. I've also moved things around a little bit. TarnishedPathtalk 10:16, 20 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Much better. One last thing to address - Crompvoets is introduced without context as to who she is and why she was investigating. The link doesn't make it apparent till you get to the bottom of the linked section. Sabine's Sunbird talk 05:33, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
No worries. I'll add something in a few hours. TarnishedPathtalk 06:14, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Sabine's Sunbird, I decided to do it now. See Special:Diff/1365116046/1365254303. TarnishedPathtalk 06:27, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Responding to the coverage in an interview with The Australian, Roberts-Smith described the scrutiny as "un-Australian". He also described the allegations as inaccurate, which should absolutely be included here. Simply stating he said it was un-Australian to subject his record to scrutiny isn't the complete picture, and arguably paints him in an (unintendedly) unflattering light.
Done. I've also expanded the paragraph a bit, linking it to the battle for which Roberts-Smith and Locke were awarded the Medal of Gallantry (covered in The Australian source I added which reports on the interview with Roberts-Smith).
  • In June 2018, a joint ABC and Fairfax Media investigation detailed an assault on the village of Darwan in September 2012 during which a handcuffed man was kicked off a cliff by an Australian special forces soldier nicknamed "Leonidas" after the famed Spartan king. Is it implied that Roberts-Smith is Leonidas? If so, it should be stated.
Done.
  • Fairfax Media reported that Roberts-Smith bullied several of his fellow soldiers and alleged that he had committed domestic violence against a woman he was having an affair with. Was the bullying an allegation as well? Or substantiated?
The bullying was indeed substantiated. At least to the civil standard. See the judgement section. Please let me know if you want anything added here. Personally if I did, I'd only be duplicating material further down in our article on him.
  • Roberts-Smith denied these allegations - all the allegations in this paragraph, or just the last one or two mentioned?
That was reference to the last two mentioned. I've clarified the sentence.
  • Keelty's disclosure came days after the AFP began a covert operation targeting Roberts-Smith, leading him to start using burner phones to obstruct the police investigation. It isn't clear what triggered Roberts-Smith to start using burner phones - the disclosure or the covert operation. I assume the former, given the "covert" nature of the operation, but this isn't clear.
Updated to "Keelty's disclosure came days after the AFP began a covert operation targeting Roberts-Smith. After learning from Keelty that he was under investigation, Roberts-Smith began using burner phones to obstruct it."
Better. Is the use of burner phones very well established legally? This is if true an attempt to pervert the course of justice I imagine and if not assessed as true by a court may be defamatory? Not sure. Sabine's Sunbird talk 03:03, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I've added allegedly between Roberts-Smith and began. There is no finding of fact in this regard and it's not something he's even been charged with. TarnishedPathtalk 07:56, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • his defence from a scheme set up to provide assistance for legal representation and related costs for current and former ADF members who have been "charged with a crime in relation to matters that are the subject of the AFP or OSI Afghanistan investigation". who established and funds this fund?
Added prose to clarify it's a program of the Australian Attorney General's Department.
  • Although no formal court plea has been entered, Roberts-Smith said in a public statement on 19 April 2026 that he denies all allegations. Not a lawyer but at this point he is denying charges not allegations, yes?
Adjusted allegations -> charges.
More to come. Sabine's Sunbird talk 04:02, 3 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Sabine's Sunbird, thankyou very much for your time. I'll try and address your points later on today and I'll keep a look out for any further suggestions for improvement. TarnishedPathtalk 23:00, 3 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Sabine's Sunbird, I will have to pick up the rest of this either tomorrow or the day after, as I have come down with the flu and I'm not feeling crash hot or able to think clearly. TarnishedPathtalk 04:52, 4 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Don't push yourself, we're all volunteers and your health matters. I'll continue reviewing tomorrow. Rest up and see you when you're mended. Sabine's Sunbird talk 05:15, 4 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I'm mostly better now. I'll try and get a bit done today. TarnishedPathtalk 03:01, 7 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, let's continue:
  • In 2018, former AFP commissioner Mick Keelty informed Roberts-Smith that the AFP had received referrals regarding alleged war crimes.[45] Keelty's disclosure came days after the AFP began a covert operation targeting Roberts-Smith, leading him to start using burner phones to obstruct the police investigation. This phrasing is ambiguous about which capacity Keelty acted in alerting Roberts-Smith - I had to go to the sources to establish that Keelty had not been acting properly, which led to his eventually handing in his honor (we assume given he didn't give a reason). Per my bullet point above, the link between the Keelty spilling and the damage it did to the investigation needs to be made clearer.
See above. I hope that makes it clearer. Please advise if extra prose, context, etc need to be added.
  • In November 2020, the Federal Court was told that Roberts-Smith and his wife had given inconsistent accounts about the status of their relationship during previous years. - while this is possibly relevant it lacks sufficient context to understand what it means. Why was this asked, or why was the court told this? Was it in relation to the improper relationship? If so, again less ambiguity.
Updated to "In November 2020, the Federal Court heard that Roberts-Smith had asked his wife to falsely claim they were separated during his affair with a woman later referred to in the trial as 'Person 17', contradicting the couple's earlier public statements."
  • Person 1, a serving SASR member, said that Roberts-Smith had stated that he would "put a bullet in the back of his head" if he did not improve his performance. is this the same incident listed in the gallantry section?
Correct. Updated to 'Person 1, the SASR member whose weapon had jammed during the 2006 battle in the Chora Valley, said that Roberts-Smith had stated he would "put a bullet in the back of his head" if he did not improve his performance.'
  • Person 43 and Person 10, other serving members of the SASR in this sentence also might be better than other.
Done. I tried to think of other ways to word this, but couldn't.
  • On 11 July 2023, Roberts-Smith filed an appeal against Justice Besanko's judgment to the Full Court of the Federal Court after being granted an extension. What is the significance of granting an extension? I have no legal training and no idea why it was necessary, so I would assume most readers would also wonder.
Adjusted to "On 11 July 2023, Roberts-Smith filed an appeal against Justice Besanko's judgment to the Full Court of the Federal Court, after the court granted an extension to the standard deadline for lodging it." That said, neither of the sources give specifics about why the extension of time was needed, just that the normal time for lodging appeals had passed. TarnishedPathtalk 04:16, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • seeking to amend his appeal due to a secret recording of a conversation between Nick McKenzie and one of his sources. why would a recording result in an amended appeal?
Adjusted wording to "Lawyers for Roberts-Smith filed an interlocutory application with the Federal Court on 27 March 2025, seeking to amend his appeal after a secret recording emerged of Nick McKenzie appearing to say he had been briefed on Roberts-Smith's legal strategy by his ex-partner and her friend, which his lawyers argued may have affected the outcome of the trial."
  • Legal costs are estimated to have totalled $30 million for the initial trial and $4 million for the appeal. who's legal costs? Earlier, the 30 million number was the costs of the defendants - is it that cost? I assume so, but wouldn't the legal costs on Roberts-Smith include his own lawyers as well?
There's a conflict in prior and later sources, with the earlier source being an attributed claim from Chris Masters (see https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-06-29/ben-roberts-smith-failed-defamation-costs/102539508). In that Masters states that defending the action cost Nine Entertainment $30 million. The later source (see https://web.archive.org/web/20260308045621/https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/ben-roberts-smith-s-last-ditch-bid-to-overturn-war-crimes-decision-20250521-p5m0y7.html) states "... a combined $30 million in legal costs. The appeal cost the parties a further $4 million." Given the conflict I've decided that perhaps the best way to deal with it is to attribute the earlier statement to Masters. Let me know if this works. TarnishedPathtalk 07:22, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Australian War Memorial subsequently updated its wording of his display which now states that he has exhausted all legal avenues to challenge to the defamation judgment. the occasional updates to his exhibit at the AWM would read very oddly to someone unfamiliar with the case - who would not grasp the significance of it. I'm going to address this in more detail later but these snippets would be better off collected together in public perceptions.
Moved the material to the public perceptions section. TarnishedPathtalk 07:44, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Throughout his legal actions, Roberts-Smith has been financially supported by some several Australians. After this statement, only Stokes, who we've already established provided a lot of funding, Singleton, who per this article didn't fund any legal action, and Rinehart, who the courts accepted didn't fund anything, are mentioned. It looks like only Stokes funded the proceedings, so that sentence needs to be modified.
Adjusted to "Throughout his legal actions, Roberts-Smith has been supported by several prominent Australians." TarnishedPathtalk 07:47, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Public perceptions and this is the section in most need of work. This unfortunate affair has been the scandal of this century in Australia. It has been intensely politicised, been dragged into the culture wars, divided the Liberal Party and made Roberts-Smith a cause célèbre for the far right. Former prime ministers have waded into his defense, Liberal MP Andrew Hastie testified against him, and conservative commentator Andrew Bolt has railed against his defenders. This section does not come close to addressing the ways this has divided public life. It needs to address these wider implications neutrally, not avoid them entirely. This is where the informtion on how the AWM has not covered itself in glory should go, along with a placement of his case in the wider scandal.
I've added the following paragraph. "Roberts-Smith's arrest and prosecution has generally divided opinion along existing political and cultural lines. Former prime ministers John Howard and Tony Abbott have both defended him publicly. Howard described him as the "modern personification of the Anzac tradition". Abbott said the rules of engagement in Afghanistan had been overly restrictive and that combat actions should not be judged by civilian standards. One Nation senator Pauline Hanson has voiced continuing support. Support for Roberts-Smith has extended to figures on the far right. Not all conservative figures have backed him unconditionally. Liberal Party politician Andrew Hastie, who had testified against Roberts-Smith during the defamation trial, said that no one was above the law. Columnist Andrew Bolt challenged Roberts-Smith's supporters directly. He asked them to consider the specific nature of the allegations, including the killing of unarmed and injured prisoners."
Please let me know if this is what you were thinking of and if you think I need to add more. TarnishedPathtalk 10:26, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I think it will do. Deeper analysis would probably be synthesis at this point and would be best left till a bit of time allows more dispasionate analysis. Sabine's Sunbird talk 05:33, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
That's all I have for now. Sabine's Sunbird talk 03:58, 5 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Sabine's Sunbird, I think I've addressed everything so far. Can you please review and let me know of any further suggestions you have. TarnishedPathtalk 11:10, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay, I've ticked most stuff off, one more thing to address and one more point to review, the last one, which I need to think about for a few minutes. Sabine's Sunbird talk 03:03, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    @Sabine's Sunbird no worries. I'll probably come back to the allegations/investigation section tomorrow. Regarding your comments on that re Crompvoets, I have read most of her book Blood Lust, Trust & Blame and had been working on some material around it (See User:TarnishedPath/sandbox) but hadn't tied it off as her book doesn't discuss Roberts-Smith at all and I was wary of sailing too close to WP:SYNTH. Have a read of what I have in my sandbox and let me know if you think I should incorporate it into the allegations/investigation section.
    Ps, I already use her book as a reference in our article. TarnishedPathtalk 08:12, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Happy to support now. Good work, thanks for your patience with all my points and good luck with the rest of the nomination. Sabine's Sunbird talk 06:44, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@Sabine's Sunbird, thankyou for your time. TarnishedPathtalk 08:44, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Review Support by Hawkeye7

[edit]

Looks pretty good. A few comments:

  • " Roberts-Smith had threatened to shoot the Junior soldier" Lower case "Junior" (Fair enough I say.)
Done. TarnishedPathtalk 04:00, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • 2 Squadron, 3 Squadron. I would prefer that these read "2 Squadron, SASR" and "3 Squadron, SASR". Not everybody would realise that the squadrons are part of the SASR, and it would be consistent with "3RAR".
    Done. TarnishedPathtalk 07:51, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • "During defamation proceedings in 2022, testimony from multiple SASR members suggested that the events underlying the award may have been fabricated, calling into question the account for which Roberts-Smith received the VC" Fabricated? By whom? It couldn't have been Roberts-Smith.
    Adjusted to "During defamation proceedings in 2022, Person 41, a serving SASR member, testified that fellow soldiers Person 7 and Person 42 believed the events leading to Roberts-Smith's Victoria Cross may have been falsified and that he was undeserving of the award." Please let me know if this works. TarnishedPathtalk 08:03, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In June 2018, a joint ABC and Fairfax Media investigation detailed an assault on the village of Darwan in September 2012 during which a handcuffed man was kicked off a cliff by an Australian special forces soldier nicknamed "Leonidas" after the famed Spartan king." Does this have anything to do with Roberts-Smith?
    Sabine's Sunbird brought this up above. I've added some prose to make it clear that they were referring to Roberts-Smith. TarnishedPathtalk 07:53, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • alleged that he had committed domestic violence against a woman he was having an affair with. Roberts-Smith denied these allegations." Because they weren't true; a drunken woman falling down the stairs.
    The allegation about domestic violence was in relation to events alleged to have occurred later on in a hotel room. See https://web.archive.org/web/20201126080449/https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/beneath-the-bravery-of-our-most-decorated-soldier-20180801-p4zuwp.html
    I should have clarified with the above statement that the woman falling down stairs occurred at the function and from what I've seen there is no allegation that Roberts-Smith is at fault for that. However, what has been alleged is that he hit the woman afterwards at a hotel. TarnishedPathtalk 08:06, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    Ps, I've adjusted the wording of the sentence to use the term assault rather than domestic violence, given that the allegations are unproven and the woman at the centre has been ruled by a judge to not be a reliable witness. TarnishedPathtalk 11:09, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    What an achievement. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:46, 13 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    Given that the allegations are unproven and the woman at the centre has been ruled by a judge to be a nut case unreliable witness, WP:BLP would require the removal of this allegation. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 12:32, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • "five counts of the war crime of murder" Any details about these? They aren't in the article.
    I've added the following sentence in the Arrest and charges section: "The charges relate to the alleged killing of an Afghan man in Kakarak in April 2009, and the deaths of civilians in Darwan and Syahchow in September and October 2012."
  • "In April 2018, Groom discovered that Roberts-Smith had been having an affair when a woman, who was given the pseudonym "Person 17" in the defamation trial, arrived at her house and showed her hundreds of text messages sent by Roberts-Smith." Something wrong here. Looks like two sentences tossed together.
    I think perhaps that was placed in the article at a point in time where Person 17 hadn't been referred to and you're correct it was two sentences acting like one. Given that Person 17 is now referred to prior to that sentence I've reduced it to "In April 2018, Person 17 arrived at Groom's house and showed her hundreds of text messages sent by Roberts-Smith, revealing that Roberts-Smith had been having an affair."
    This affair was with Person 17, right? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:46, 13 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    Yep. TarnishedPathtalk 12:22, 13 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Hawkeye7, thankyou for your time going over the article. Please see above and let me know if there are any other ways in which you think the article can be improved. TarnishedPathtalk 09:47, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
All good. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:46, 13 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
TY very much for your time and support. TarnishedPathtalk 12:23, 13 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]


Ping me when angrysunbird has finished and I’ll take a look. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:37, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@Peacemaker67 cheers and will do. TarnishedPathtalk 10:06, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Peacemaker67, angrysunbird has now finished their review. TarnishedPathtalk 08:46, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Right, will have a look shortly. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:07, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Cheers and thanks for your time. TarnishedPathtalk 09:46, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

PM

[edit]

I'll note first up that I provided a peer review in March last year. The details are in the tp archives.

Early life, family and education
  • all good, but a little thin? Do we know what Sue did for a job or how he went at school?
Unfortunately, nothing about Sue. I've added some detail that he struggled academically, and that he was awarded Hale School 1st XV's best and fairest in his final year. I'll come back to this review tomorrow. TarnishedPathtalk 13:15, 23 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Military career and honours
  • "On 31 May 2006, Roberts-Smith was a scout and sniper in a patrol[a] deployed during the 2006 Dutch/Australian Offensive, whose objective was to establish an observation post on the mountain Koran Ghar, overlooking the Chora Pass in Uruzgan Province." this is potentially confusing about whether the objective was that of the patrol or the offensive. I would end the sentence at "Offensive." then "The patrol's objective ..."
Done. I'll try and get more done over the weekend. It's 10:39pm now and I'm going to wind down before going to sleep. TarnishedPathtalk 12:39, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it known who was commanding the patrol? Locke presumably?
That would be a correct presumption. I've made it explicit. TarnishedPathtalk 03:57, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • "On 2 June, the American witnessed a lone Afghan teenager approaching the patrol observation post, leaving shortly thereafter, and communicated what he saw to the team." again, potentially confusing. I suggest, "On 2 June, a lone Afghan teenager approached the patrol observation post and left the area shortly thereafter. The American had seen the teenager and communicated what he saw to the rest of the team."
Done. TarnishedPathtalk 04:00, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Where were RS and Locke if not at the OP?
The source, which covers that they were away from the OP (Masters) doesn't go into that detail. Presumably the information was fed to Masters by either Person 1 or Person 2 (the two junior soldiers) and they may not have known or gone into that much detail. TarnishedPathtalk 04:08, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • I find the whole description of RS stating that there were two enemy and the report only stating one confusing. Perhaps it would be better to state what the patrol report said, then that RS later stated there were two armed insurgents, and then that he was confused. Presumably he agreed that there was only one and he was unarmed? Or what?
I've added a quote from RS "Without the benefit of the patrol report to guide me it would appear I have confused my many engagements and identified two insurgents initially locating our observation post as opposed to one". TarnishedPathtalk 08:44, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps "who moved out of their secure position to kill the enemy combatants."
Done. TarnishedPathtalk 08:46, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • How is it that RS decided the team deployment given he was a lance-jack and Locke as a sergeant was presumably in command? Perhaps he moved to the sniper position on his own initiative?
This was discussed above in angrysunbird's review. The Australian War Memorial states "In another incident, two Anti Coalition Militia attempted to attack the Observation Post from a different flank, Lance Corporal Roberts-Smith again moved to support and neutralise one of these Militia. Lance Corporal Roberts-Smith then realised that the forward edge of the Observation Post was not secure and made the decision to split the team and take up an exposed position forward of the patrol so he could effectively employ his sniper weapon. Whilst isolated, and in his precarious position, he observed a group of sixteen Anti Coalition Militia advancing across open ground towards the Observation Post. Lance Corporal Roberts-Smith effectively employed his sniper rifle to stop their advance whilst receiving very accurate small arms fire from another group of Militia to his flank." (bolding mine for emphasis). You're correct that Locke was in charge. My interpretation is that when RS made the decision to split the 2 man team he was away from Locke, after being one of the two members of the patrol who moved out of their secure position to kill the enemy combatants, and perhaps the other soldier with RS was one of the junior soldiers and thus RS held rank between the two of them. The sourcing doesn't go into that much detail though. I don't know what can be added here, or if anything should be, but I'm open to suggestions. TarnishedPathtalk 08:58, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • suggest "While under fire, Roberts-Smith used his rifle to stop their advance."
Done. TarnishedPathtalk 09:01, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would not refer to it as "his patrol" but "the patrol"
Done. TarnishedPathtalk 09:05, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • the AWM quote appears to be a quote from the MG citation, not a statement attributable to the AWM.
You are correct. I've added a source (https://anzacportal.dva.gov.au/stories/biographies/benjamin-roberts-smith) which makes that clear and updated the wording accordingly. I've also move the placement of that sentence to the end of the paragraph. TarnishedPathtalk 09:48, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

more to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:21, 22 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@Peacemaker67 again, thankyou for your time undertaking this review and I'll try and address most of this tonight. TarnishedPathtalk 23:30, 22 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • What was his rank at the time of the VC action? LCPL?
By the time of the investiture he held the rank of corporal; however, the sourcing doesn't state what his rank was at the time of the Tizak mission. I've been unable to determine if he was a corporal before the Tizak mission or if he attained that rank between the mission and the investiture. TarnishedPathtalk 06:20, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • link rocket-propelled grenade and add (RPG)
Done. TarnishedPathtalk 06:22, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • suggest "unable to advance closer than 40 metres from ..."
Done. TarnishedPathtalk 06:24, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • suggest "Roberts-Smith then identified a structure from which he would be able to get cover from fire." What was this structure?
Updated the wording per your suggestion. Regarding what the structure was, the detail is taken from the VC citation and it doesn't go into any more detail than that it was a small structure.
Here's a quote:
"Upon commencement of the assault, the patrol drew very heavy, intense, effective and sustained fire from the enemy position. Corporal Roberts-Smith and his patrol members fought towards the enemy position until, at a range of 40 metres, the weight of fire prevented further movement forward. At this point, he identified the opportunity to exploit some cover provided by a small structure.
As he approached the structure, Corporal Roberts-Smith identified an insurgent grenadier in the throes of engaging his patrol. Corporal Roberts-Smith instinctively engaged the insurgent at point-blank range resulting in the death of the insurgent. With the members of his patrol still pinned down by the three enemy machine gun positions, he exposed his own position in order to draw fire away from his patrol, which enabled them to bring fire to bear against the enemy. His actions enabled his Patrol Commander to throw a grenade and silence one of the machine guns. Seizing the advantage, and demonstrating extreme devotion to duty and the most conspicuous gallantry, Corporal Roberts-Smith, with a total disregard for his own safety, stormed the enemy position killing the two remaining machine gunners."TarnishedPathtalk 06:30, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • "engaged a grenadier"? Suggest "He approached the position and killed an enemy soldier armed with an RPG." if that is what is meant?
Done. TarnishedPathtalk 06:32, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • He exposed his location to the enemy to draw fire away from the rest of his patrol. This was successful, and Roberts-Smith's ..."
Done. TarnishedPathtalk 06:34, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • certainly explain what the VC is at the point of his investiture.
I've added it as a note. Please let me know if you'd prefer it to be added into the paragraph instead. TarnishedPathtalk 06:55, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • perhaps state in general terms who Persons 7 and 42 were, other than fellow soldiers. ie they were anonymous senior special forces soldiers who gave evidence for the media organisations (against Ben Roberts-Smith) in the defamation trial.
I've added the following sentence "Person 7 and Person 42, who were given pseudonyms for national security reasons, were senior soldiers who appeared in court as witnesses against Roberts-Smith in defamation proceedings." TarnishedPathtalk 07:46, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Down to corporate career, more to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:38, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@Peacemaker67, I've gone through all of your points so far. For some of them I haven't been able to do anything, because the detail you've been after isn't in the sources. Please have a look and let me know if there is anything further you would like added/adjusted in relation to the above and when you're ready please let me know any suggestions in relation to the rest of the article. TarnishedPathtalk 08:05, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comment

[edit]
Good point. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:06, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I've replaced the source in the two places it was used. TarnishedPathtalk 08:02, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Regulus (Turner)

[edit]
Nominator(s): Citrus🍋 23:40, 26 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a controversial painting by the English artist J. M. W. Turner, depicting the legendary tale of Marcus Atilius Regulus. It may be most well known for the account of its 1837 overpainting, during which Turner buried the center of the painting under a white sun in front of a viewing audience. Contemporaries, including Turner's supporter John Ruskin, derided Regulus, with Ruskin going as far as to say it should be "placed in a condemned cell, or chamber of humiliation". This culminated in an 1863 stabbing of the painting by a man upset with both the painting and its creator. While the controversy over its quality has diminished, modern scholars still debate the influences, location, and even perspective of the painting. Citrus🍋 23:40, 26 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@Vacant0, Jimfbleak, and RoySmith: courtesy pinging, thank you for working on the peer review :). Citrus🍋 00:00, 27 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from TechnoSquirrel69

[edit]

I've already given this a once-over from a feedback request on the Wikimedia Discord server and was liking what I was seeing; I'd be happy to go through this again in more depth! Expect comments later next week (and feel free to ping if it's slipped my mind). —TechnoSquirrel69 (talk) 00:04, 27 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Here come some comments! —TS

  • overpainted twice, first → overpainted twice; first
    • I don't think a semicolon would be appropriate here, as the latter section does not function as an independent clause. I have split the sentience at an earlier point to maintain focus
  • To what extent is the painting "owned" by Tate? The body doesn't use this phrasing or say anything about a purchase. Maybe it would be good to clarify the contextual meaning of "transferred" as well.
    • Trust me, the "ownership" status of National Gallery/Tate paintings is a rabbit hole there's absolutely no need to go down. Just say "now in". But "transferred" seems clear enough - is "moved" any better? Johnbod (talk) 03:18, 5 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Transfered" as a single bullet point was the best I could find on the transfer of the painting in any source. Changed "owned" to "now in."
  • In 1863 it was → In 1863, it was
    • Added
  • The painting has suffered from flaking paint. → The painting has also suffered from flaking paint. (better flow?)
    • Added
  • Another point of contention is if Regulus → Another point of contention is whether Regulus (twice more in that sentence)
    • Changed
  • In footnote b, neither Beaumont nor Powell have been introduced yet. Similarly with footnote d further down.
    • Beaumont and Powell here are used to refer to the source, not the person. As it is not a critical commentary, I am unsure an introduction is needed.
      In that case, I might spring for a {{harv}} or {{harvnb}}, which are good for explanatory footnotes like these. —TS
  • "One refrain heard ..." sounds a little off. It seems to weasel out of who actually said this, or who reported hearing it.
    • Clarified critics
  • Latin seems like an excessive link.
    • Removed
  • "Caccatum non est pictum" (It's shit; it's not painting!) → Caccatum non est pictum ('It's shit; it's not painting!'). ({{lang|la|Caccatum non est pictum}} ('It's shit; it's not painting!'). See also MOS:SINGLE)
    • Added
  • "It is also possible Regulus was damaged in London in any number of ways ..." Indeed, and I think our readers can be trusted to come to that conclusion themselves, given how doubtfully the previous explanations are presented.
    • I think its good to still explicitly mention it, along with an example proposed by experts
  • "a large tear in the upper left corner" feels repetitive with earlier in the paragraph. Maybe remove that detail the first time around so it doesn't feel redundant here.
    • Removed
  • Similarly with "which covered most of the sky" and "containing mostly sky".
    • The first is "which covered much of the sky", not "which covered most of the sky". The sentences say two different, but related things, and I don't think either should be removed
  • "possibly performed by William Redmore Bigg" would be clearer within dashes or parentheses.
    • Added em dashes
  • stitched shut, and hidden → stitched shut and hidden
    • Removed comma
  • unwanted paintings, particularly given → unwanted paintings, and given
    • Cut "particularly"
  • "increased crowd" sounds unidiomatic. I suppose larger would be the natural choice, but you just used that, so maybe "more substantial audience"?
    • Changed
  • Do the sources provide an explanation for why Turner used Regulus in the British Institution exhibition despite it being "unsuited for this goal"?
    • Explained in the subsequent sentience, "It is possible that he wanted to display the painting to demonstrate how the principles of Claude could be modernised."
      Right, and I didn't find that much of an explanation, which could be my lack of expertise talking. I (and the average reader) don't know what Claude's principles are; do they have anything to do with the small canvas size? If so, how can that be made clearer? —TS
  • "the only case which had both a written and visual description" Does case here refer to this varnishing day or the painting itself?
    • Clarified
  • "extreme modifications" Word choice seems a tad... extreme. ;)
    • Changed to significant
  • "National Portrait Gallery George Scharf" is becoming a sea of blue. I'd suggest "... described 45 years later in a letter to George Scharf, the director of the National Portrait Gallery." (keeping MOS:JOBTITLE in mind).
    • Changed
  • The article goes back and forth on its use of false titles. I would pick one or the other, but since consistency on this is not required, it's not a big deal either way.
    • Should be free of false titles, every time I think I have removed them all I find one more.
  • notes that at an angle, → notes that, at an angle,
    • Added
  • The prose after "Analysis performed in 2012" seems out of place in § History considering we also have § Analysis.
    • § Analysis is used for critical analysis of the painting, this analysis was of a technical nature that is most useful in contrast to the historical information presented immediately before.
  • I would move the two paintings of the varnishing day down to the paragraph that describes them.
    • This unfortunately would create an issue with pushing the engravings further down, far past where they are mentioned. While these paintings are described later, they also depict the event described higher up, and so I think the best option is to keep them where they are.
  • 'Inaccessible gallery' should have double quotes per MOS:SINGLE. Also, capital I?
    • Doubled quoted. "Inaccessible gallery" is capialised like that in the source, I am unsure why.
  • "until his death" The year of Turner's death may be relevant to mention.
    • Added
  • "keeper of the National Gallery" Capital K, per MOS:JOBTITLE?
    • Capitalised
  • 'Turner Room' MOS:SINGLE applies again, but are quotes even necessary here?
    • Cut quotes. Sources disagree on if "room" should be capitalised, I have gone with "Room"
  • Maybe move footnote e to the end of the sentence so Bradshaw's full name can be mentioned first.
    • Moved
  • Is it relevant that Stephenson was "poorly dressed"? It's mentioned later that he was homeless.
    • Removed
  • "Turner room" is used here without quotes and a lowercase R.
    • Corrected
  • I would get rid of the quotes around "he replied ..." so you don't need to nest them.
    • Removed
  • January 18, 1864,
    • Changed

I'm a very amateur visual artist and by no means an art historian, so this was a really interesting look into the field. I've gone through to the end of § History — excellent reading so far! Please ping me when these are addressed and I'll keep going. —TechnoSquirrel69 (talk) 00:22, 3 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@TechnoSquirrel69: I have responded to your points. I kept some things, though with reasonable justification. Thank you so much for your work on this :). Citrus🍋 19:03, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Nice work so far, CitrusHemlock! I'll finish my reading later this week, but I have some replies for you above in the meantime. —TechnoSquirrel69 (talk) 04:17, 7 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Source review from Usernameunique

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  • #39 — Suggest linking Tate and adding an archived URL. Also, this is a bit of an outlier in terms of not having a short cite; it contrasts with Conrad 2014, which doesn't need a short cite (the full cite could be in "References") but has one anyways. Any particular reasoning?
    • They're just different because they were added a few months apart. I have removed the unnecessary short cites.
  • In the bibliography, most of the publishers could be linked (e.g., Yale University Press).
    • Added
  • Per WP:ISBN, Please use the ISBN-13 if both are provided by the original work. ... However, if an older work only lists an ISBN-10, use that in citations instead of calculating an ISBN-13 for it. This is because ISBNs are often used as search strings and checksum differences between the two forms make it difficult to find items listed only under the other type. Here, many books are old enough that I would expect an ISBN-10 to be appropriate.
    • Added ISBN-10, used ISBN-13 for Gage as it was originally published without an ISBN.
  • Hornblower, Spawforth, & Eidinow 2012 — Suggest "name-list-style = amp" parameter.
    • Done, same with the other work authored by three people.
  • I've added links to the Internet Archive for a few of the books, and suspect that many (if not most) of the others could also be found there.
    • Added a few, there's an upload on IA of The Fall of Carthage but I do not think it was legally uploaded.
  • Hellen 2014 — The British Art Journal can take a link.
    • Done
  • Publishers and locations are missing for the three journals.
    • Are publishers and locations needed for journals? I haven't really seen that on other FAs and GAs.
  • Conrad 2014 — The Guardian can be linked. Also, this article is on newspapers.com and you might clip it and add the URL here, but that's certainly not required. (I would clip it myself but my TWL subscription is up for renewal at the moment.)
  • Cust 1895 — The Magazine of Art can take a link
    • Done
  • Rosenberg 2017 — Ditto The New York Times.
    • Done
  • Ditto The Spectator. Is there no volume/issue information for this?
    • Not really, it was a weekly magazine before bylines became standard, so there isn't really any further detail that can be obtained.
      • The full issue can be found here, and says it's issue #450. I would also add the page number to the long cite. (Given that it's a one-page article, it's not clear that you need both long and short cites, but up to you.) --Usernameunique (talk) 01:46, 28 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have removed the shortcite
  • Townsend, Hellen, & Warrell 2017 is missing a page range for the chapters.
    • Added

Spot checks Numbers generated from a random-number generator:

  • 3
  • 4 — Checks out.
  • 7 — Used three times and they check out. Note that this source quotes Turner as writing "Regulus returns", but the source from which it is taken (Powell 1987) quotes it as "Regulus return".
    • I am going to change the quote to the Powell version, I didn't notice the discrepancy while writing. Do you think it would be good to add a note including the Beaumont version? It seems like it could have been a simple typo or autocorrect issue that isn't worthy of mention in the article, but it is an otherwise reliable source.
      • It's probably a typo. It wouldn't be the worst thing to add a footnote saying that Beaumont, citing Powell, quotes it as "Regulus returns". I will sometimes take a similar approach (see, e.g., footnote 1 at Ann Dallas) to help anyone else who is confused. --Usernameunique (talk) 20:44, 27 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • 8 — Checks out.
  • 11 — Checks out.
  • 13 — This generally checks out, with a caveat. Reading the footnote, it seems that he's making a case for why he believes the fragments of the poem are indeed from "The Southern Coast". The article, however, makes it seem a bit as if he's making a logical leap without the foundation for doing so.
  • 23 — Checks out.
  • 25
  • 29 — Cited four times, and they generally look fine. Where on page 98, however, does it mention that the The engraving is marked with the year 1840?
  • 31
  • 32
  • 44 — There's an em dash in the source that's omitted in the quotation.
    • Added

Overall

  • The references look reliable and well formatted. Some nits are addressed above. My only substantive comment is to ask how comprehensive this survey of literature is intended to be? As a well-known nearly 200-year old painting by a well-known artist, I expect much more has been written about it. What is the thinking behind using this selection? --Usernameunique (talk) 00:36, 27 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    @Usernameunique: Just a friendly note that criterion 2c only requires citation consistency and not any particular style. While most people, myself included, prefer to link works and publishers, it isn't required. —TechnoSquirrel69 (talk) 01:10, 27 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    TechnoSquirrel69, I don't believe anything in my review suggested that such issues were requirements. But just because something that might improve an article isn't required doesn't mean that it shouldn't be mentioned. --Usernameunique (talk) 01:24, 27 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    Great, we're on the same page, then. :) I more so wanted to make that clear for CitrusHemlock, who's new to FAC. Relatedly, will you be tackling the rouns of spot-checks required for first-time nominators? If not, I can try to get to it during my review next week. —TechnoSquirrel69 (talk) 02:08, 27 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    Sounds good, TechnoSquirrel69, thanks for clarifying. And thanks for noting that this is a first-time nomination. I'd be happy to carry out the spot checks. --Usernameunique (talk) 02:12, 27 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    Most modern work on Turner merely repeat Gage's analysis of the work and move on, primarily using it as an example to illustrate a larger point. The sources I used are those that really focus on Regulus in its own right. Citrus🍋 02:21, 27 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Johnbod

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  • I also participated in the peer review, and said I didn't think it was ready for FAC. I think some comments I made were acted on, but haven't checked. I will probably let this roll on for a bit before reviewing, but ENGVAR issues were one concern. Johnbod (talk) 03:44, 27 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

MCE89

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Some prose suggestions from me:

  • It is owned by Tate Britain in London - The phrasing "owned... in London" sounds a little odd to me here, might "owned by the London gallery Tate Britain" or similar work better?
This has been changed about 4 times already. Tate Britain is a large museum rather than a "gallery", which suggests a commercial space. My own suggestion at the peer review was "is now in" as preferred by MOS:ART. Johnbod (talk) 15:35, 28 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • It depicts a harbour scene - I'd replace the subject "It" with "The painting" here given that it's been a few sentences since you last mentioned the painting
    • Changed, removed the use of the "The painting" in the subsequent sentence
  • Since then it has suffered from flaking paint - The wording "since then" reads somewhat as if the flaking paint is connected to the stabbing, whereas the body seems to imply that they're unrelated
    • Clarified
  • It is unknown if the painting depicts Regulus leaving Carthage for Rome, or his subsequent journey back - Can I suggest rephrasing to something like Some believe that the painting depicts Regulus leaving Carthage for Rome, while others believe that it depicts his journey back? I think this would link more neatly with "debated" in the previous sentence
    • Rephrased
  • It is also contested if Regulus is a figure - I find the phrasing "it is also contested if" a little awkward here as well, suggest rephrasing
    • Rephrased
  • Evidence is drawn from... - I think the meaning here could be made more explicit, e.g. "Scholars have supported their interpretations using evidence drawn from..."
    • Added
  • Is it worth adding a sentence or so about J. M. W. Turner in the "Background" section? I'd suggest at least adding "the English Romantic painter"
    • Adding "the English artist", I think that 'Romantic' pigeonholes him a bit. Aspects about Turner relevant to the painting, such as his interested in Roman history and poetry are described later in the section.
  • The sentence beginning "Some historians add details..." is a little ambiguous - is the story about him being placed in a barrel of sharpened nails also being attributed to Tuditanus, or was that another historian?
    • Clarified and added to section
  • Details in Turner's writings indicate some of his opinions of Regulus originated from... - I think you could simplify this sentence to something like Turner's writings indicate that he was influenced by... without losing much meaning
    • Rephrased differently, Turner's writings indicate that he was influenced by... implies that he directly read Horace, which is not stated by the original source. Also shifted to the end of the paragraph, as the main literary evidence used is the poem mentioned then.
  • You could consider dropping the clause "indicating his interest in the figure", which I think largely goes without saying
    • Dropped
  • damaged in London for any number of reasons - Suggest changing to damaged in London in any number of ways, such as by falling onto furniture
    • Rephrased
  • You could considering dropping either "45 years later" or "in 1882", including both seems a little redundant to me
    • Dropped 'in 1882', the important part is the length of time between observation and telling
  • I believe the MOS requires double quotes around "inaccessible gallery". You could also cut the single quotes around Turner Room later on
    • Clarified
  • "had slightly different aspect ratio than the original painting" -> "had a slightly different aspect ratio to the original painting"
    • Corrected
  • Suggest removing "regardless of profession", as I don't think it adds much and the tone sounds a little off to me
    • Removed, I believe I wrote that part when I was still pretty new to writing in an editorial voice
  • This is nitpicky but there are a few MOS:LQ issues, e.g. the full stop after "Turner's Modern and Ancient Ports: Passages through Time" should be outside the quotation marks
    • Corrected, LQ just does not come naturally to me
  • "Drawing significant critique" - Would "criticism" be more suited here? "Critique" can be positive/neutral, whereas I think you're saying here that it attracted specifically negative critique
    • Criticism works better, changed
  • Suggest introducing The Turner Gallery, e.g. "...that had been published in the 1879 collection The Turner Gallery."
    • Introduced, thought this is the 1859 work, not the 1879 work.
  • "before Regulus leaves to Rome" -> "before Regulus leaves for Rome"
    • Corrected
  • The actual location of Regulus himself is also up to interpretation - Can I suggest The location of Regulus himself has been subject to multiple interpretations?
    • Changed
  • Professor of English Literature Matthew Beaumont - I think "literary scholar Matthew Beaumont" or "scholar of English literature Matthew Beaumont" would be more common than giving his full title
    • Changed

Overall the article seems very well-written to me, and these are all pretty minor points. Just ping me when you've had a chance to look through these suggestions. MCE89 (talk) 15:11, 28 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@MCE89: Should have addressed most of the issues. Sorry for responding so late, some personal stuff came up in my life. Citrus🍋 07:33, 5 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good to me, happy to support. MCE89 (talk) 16:56, 5 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Jim

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I commented on this at peer review, so returning for another look. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:59, 29 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

  • What is the point of the red linked harbour scene? It’s unlikely that there will ever be a topic of that name especially as you later refer to and link seascape.
I suggested at PR the term was better, though I didn't suggest a redlink. It is in fact highly likely that this redlink for a very common genre in painting will turn green, perhaps soon. But the redlink here may not be needed. The painting is not really a seascape. Johnbod (talk) 13:30, 29 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Johnbod: thanks for that. To clarify, I had no objection to the term, just the redlink, but not a big deal. Your reply does, though, raise the question as to whether the description as a seascape at the start of the Background section is correct Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:53, 29 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's ok - I was being rather over-emphatic, as harbour scenes (like this, with open sea in view) are a sub-group of seascapes/maritime paintings. The latter of these is the better link, just on the quality of the destination article, as seascape isn't much use to anyone. Johnbod (talk) 03:11, 5 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • after which it was transported back to England, where he lived— Is "back" necessary? It implies it had been there before.
    • Cut "back"
  • with its technique and Turner himself— "Its" seems odd here, perhaps with both Turner’s technique and the artist himself.
    • Added
  • An inch and a quarter— You give the picture dimensions as metric (imperial), but here we get only imperial. For consistency, you need the conversion, which rounds as 32 mm
    • used a convert template

Vacant0

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I was one of the reviewers at the PR and looking at the article again, I see no issues with it. Therefore, I'm handing you my support. Cheers, Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 16:10, 1 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

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This is a source review primarily, though prose/source comment to start things off: 5-6 redlinks in the article seems a little high; are they all needed. The 'harbor scene' redlink might also be addressed by looking at the article for Seascapes on Wikipedia.

Will you change to Seascapes? And do you need all of the redlinks at the bottom sections of the article? ErnestKrause (talk) 13:08, 3 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Deatails of review:

The article has just over 50 cites, most of which are to books which appear to all be properly sourced, with some other cites linking to galleries and online journals/newspapers, etc. The following should be looked at:

(1) TNYT is paywalled and should be marked as such. Possibly an archival copy exists somewhere or could be created for the article.

  • Added paywall sign

(2) The Spectator is paywalled and should be marked as such.

  • The Spectator archive is not paywalled
Spectator is paywalled as linked in the article for me; its required one pound payment. Can you link it to the 'archive' you mention, since the direct link is again paywalled? ErnestKrause (talk) 17:45, 5 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
The website is archive.spectator.co.uk. It may be a regional issue, I am based in the United States, and here there is no such paywall.
From a USA site, the Spectator is again paywalled for me with the message: "This archive is for subscription only". ErnestKrause (talk) 11:14, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

(3) The Guardian is paywalled and should be marked as such.

As occupying a full half screen on my laptop, this Demi-paywall comes up blocking the normal view of the material (this to me would qualify as being a paywall-like obstruction of the article) here: "We are also free to read: instead of a paywall, our readers support us. Do you have 37 seconds to help? Even $5 makes a difference, but for the most impact (and to limit these annoying pop-ups!) please consider a monthly gift. Thank you for protecting the free press." ErnestKrause (talk) 11:14, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

(4) The Tate gallery link is coming up on my screen as being compromised. Link should be authenticated since it does not link to the Tate on my screen and internet connection.

Safari gives an unregistered website warning and does not allow the link. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:08, 3 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tate link uses https and has worked for others, might be an issue on your end
Tate looks ok now. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:45, 5 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Waiting for response on these issues. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:33, 2 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Seascapes link does not work for you in the lede redlink for yur 'harbours' redlink? I'm counting 8 other redlinks in the articles which seems a little high? ErnestKrause (talk) 17:40, 5 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I cut references to the type of painting due to the amount of disagreement that has been had. I believe that all of the redlinks are justified, notable people, paintings, and works that do not yet have pages. If you have an issue with one of them, please point it out. Citrus🍋 02:37, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I'm only signed up for a second source review and I'm going to sign up for this article. The paywall for the Spectator is still there, and the Demi-paywall for the Guardian is documented above. I'm also not sure why seascapes doesn't work for you instead of 'harbour' on the prose links though I'll leave that up to you. Wikipedia needs more Turner articles and I'm now giving a Support here on this Sources review. ErnestKrause (talk) 11:14, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

History of cricket to 1725

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Nominator(s): Jack (talk) 11:36, 26 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the origins and early history of cricket, which is now a global sport. The article was written in the mid-2000s, and was promoted to WP:GA in 2008. It has been maintained and improved ever since then, with relatively few instances of vandalism or other types of interference. The vast majority of sources are books, many of which are not easily obtainable, but I can guarantee that every book referenced has the full approval of cricket historical circles, including The Cricket Society and The Association of Cricket Statisticians and Historians.

A good many cricket articles have already been promoted to FA, but this one is in effect the beginning of our cricket coverage, and it would be appropriate for it to reach FA standard too. I am sure that the article is, shall we say, "good on the whole", but nothing is ever perfect, and I hope we can work together to bridge the gap between GA and FA. I might add that I am not looking for glittering prizes, only for the article to be the very best it can potentially be. Thanks, Jack (talk) 11:36, 26 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

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  • Don't use fixed px size
  • File:Charles_Lennox,_2nd_Duke_of_Richmond,_by_circle_of_Jean_Marc_Nattier.jpg needs a US tag. Ditto File:Book_of_Sports.jpg
Sorry about the px size. I think BorgQueen has resolved it.
I've tagged the three images with {{PD-art-100-expired}}. Please check if they're okay now. Thanks, Jack (talk) 02:15, 27 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
The last of these still has a dead source link; when and where was it first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:18, 27 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know. I'll replace it with File:Richmond Green - geograph.org.uk - 2888554.jpg, which is probably more relevant. Back in a minute. Jack (talk) 02:29, 27 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Right, I've done that, and removed all the px values. Thanks again, Jack (talk) 02:41, 27 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

AA

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Placeholder, I'll review over the next few days. AA (talk) 22:00, 1 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Lead
  • I'd remove the reference in the lead and move it down into the "Origins of cricket as a children's game" section, as this will repeat what the lead summarises. Done.
  • "All that can be said with a fair degree of certainty..." I'd reword this to say: "All that is known with a fair degree of certainty..." Done.
  • I'd have a semicolon after 1611, to join two relatively short sentences to improve flow. Done.
  • "...offered for gambling and this escalated...", comma after "and". Done.
  • Comma after "vociferous crowds", I think. Done.
Origins of cricket as a children's game
  • I wonder of this section might be better being renamed: "Origins and etymology"? This encompasses both its origins, and subsequent discussion about the origin of the name. Much better; done.
  • "In Samuel Johnson's Dictionary of the English Language (1755), he derived cricket from "cryce, Saxon, a stick"." The latter part of this sentence reads a little awkwardly, I wonder if "...he derived cricket from "cryce, a Saxon word for a stick". This flows a little more naturally, I think. Agreed; done.
  • Comma after "Surrey", in the sentence beginning "Their consensus view...". Done.
  • Comma after "baseball". Done.
"Creag"
  • Nothing to add here
Earliest definite references
  • I'd lose the "anywhere" in the brackets, to avoid quick repetition. Done.
The development of village cricket 1610–1660
Beginning of adult participation
  • I'd be inclined to delink " Chevening" here, as while this links to the Kent village, the earlier link leads to Chevening House. By the looks of the sentence in this section, it is referencing that 1610 match played at the house, so I don't think the link to village is necessary. Done. Could have been confusing.
  • "...and the earliest known organised match in Kent, in England, and in the world." I wonder if "in England" is needed, as by saying it is the earliest known organised match in Kent, implies that by extension, it is the earliest in England too. Done.
Fatalities
  • "The tragedy was repeated..." Don't doubt this was a tragedy, but I wonder if this is bordering on opinion? Perhaps rewording along the lines of: "A further fatality under identical circumstances occurred in 1647 at Selsey, now in West Sussex, when a player called Henry Brand was hit on the head by a batsman trying to hit the ball a second time."? Yes, it was a bit subjective. Changed to your wording.
  • Might this subsection be better placed after the "Breaking the Sabbath" section? Just thinking along the lines of the first dates in both sections? 1624 jumps back t0 1611 in the opening of the next part. You're right, it breaks the chronology in the section openers. Moved as suggested.
Breaking the Sabbath
  • "The first definite mention of cricket in Sussex was in 1611, and relates to ecclesiastical court records..." This is the same as the opening sentence in the "Beginning of adult participation" subsection, so I'd be inclined to mix it up a little! Perhaps: "Cricket was first definitively mentioned in Sussex in 1611, relating to ecclesiastical court records...". Ha! I never would have noticed that. Changed the Sussex one.
  • I'd try and join the following short sentence to the former: "...that were permitted on Sundays. Cricket is not mentioned." Maybe by means of a semicolon, but reworded to "...on Sundays; cricket was not amongst them". Done.
  • As Jasper Vinall and Henry Brand have been introduced, I think it is okay to referrer to them as "Vinall and Brand". Sections have been swapped, so they first appeared here now. I've taken their names out, and added a section link instead. Please check if that's okay.
  • "It did him no good..." could this be more formal? Perhaps: "His defence was dismissed and...", or along those lines? Done.
  • Could Cromwell be re-introduced here as the Lord Protector of the Commonwealth, to give the reader his status in the Commonwealth and why his playing it as a child might lend credence for its (or his) approval of it. I notice this is done in the following section, but would be better introduced earlier, I think. Yes, good point. Changes made, but please see what you think.
The beginning of amateur cricket
  • I think this section detracts enough from the village cricket narrative to become its own level 2 heading. Done. There is something of a sea change at that point.
  • Comma after "gentry". Done.
"...and all the then players became nominally professional." I wonder if this might be more succinctly put, and read more naturally, as: "...and all players became nominally professional thereafter."? Better. Done.
  • After "extracurricular activity", the following sentence could be connected with a semicolon with "the" being dropped. Done.
  • Derek Birley is named above, herein he can be referred to as "Birley". Done.
  • Comma after "1728". Done.
Development of important cricket 1660–1700
  • Comma after "1662". Done.
  • With the em dashes, I wonder as the subject matter is British, whether a gap between the words and so the use of en dashes might be better to adhere to UK English style. This is completely up to you, it is more of a stylistic choice – so no biggie if you stay with em dashes!
Actually, the emdash is one Americanism I prefer, but you're right that this an English article, and we do use the endash, so I've swapped them throughout. I counted eight in all.
  • "...in which he mentioned that their son had taken part in 'a game of criquett (sic) on Richmond Green' which is the first reference to cricket at Richmond Green. I'd link Richmond Green in the quote, and then change the second mention to "...the first reference of cricket there" followed by "with it being a popular...". Done. Much better.
  • I'd change the mention to Rowland Bowen here to "Bowen", and introduce him above in the section that briefly mentions cricket in Ireland, as "the cricket historian/writer Richard Bowen". Done.
  • Refer to Harry Altham as "Altham" and delink as he is linked above. Done.
  • Introduce John Major here, as you did in History of English cricket (1726–1750), and hereon refer to him as "Major". Done.
  • Refer to Derek Birley as "Birley". Done.
  • "£3 being paid to him when he went to a cricket match..." → "£3 being paid to him when he attended a cricket match...", slightly more succinct! Done.
  • After "Mitcham Cricket Green", connect the next short sentence to his with a semicolon. Done.
  • "Re" sits a little uneasy in this sentence: "This venue was first mentioned re cricket on Friday...", perhaps reword to something like: "Cricket was first mentioned at thie venue on Friday...". Done.
  • Also quite a lot of "cricket" in this short paragraph, largely unavoidable. Yes, several instances. I decided to rework the whole, so could you please check:
The London club was to become chiefly associated with the Artillery Ground in Finsbury. Cricket was first mentioned at this venue on Friday, 7 May 1725, when the minutes of the Honourable Artillery Company refer to it being played there, in a note concerning 'the abuse done to the herbage of the ground by the cricket players'. The Artillery Ground became the feature venue for matches in the mid-18th century.
Looks alright to me! 21:20, 19 July 2026 (UTC)
  • I wonder if "cricket" could be swapped out for "the sport" after "...referred to its being used..."? Done.
  • Introduce G. B. Buckley as "the cricket historian..." Done.
  • Delink "Licensing of the Press Act 1662", as this is linked above. Done.
  • Delink Surrey, as linked above... I might have missed a couple of other incidences of Surrey (the county article) being linked more than once. As soon as I started looking for Surrey, I noticed several more olinks. So, I've run a full routine to identify them all, and I think I've got them, though the odd one or two might have slipped through the net in an article this big.
Rules and equipment of early cricket
  • Delink "cricketers" and link the first mention of cricket in "Origins and etymology". Done.
  • Link "pads". I've also linked protective equipment, gloves, and gloves.
  • Delink "Artillery Ground". Done.
  • Comma after "1760s". Done.
  • I'd be inclined to link "cudgel" to Club (weapon), as it's quite a niche term (must admit, I'd never heard of it). It's a very archaic term, but it seems to have been in common use through the 18th and 19th centuries. I suppose we would just say 'club' now.
  • "(i.e., with a flat surface at the bottom of the stick in ice hockey style)", this this might flow better as: " (i.e., with a flat surface at the bottom in the style of a stick in ice hockey)". Done, except I found Ice hockey stick, so I've used that.
  • I think the following two short sentences can be combined, and slightly reworded: "The term 'bat' remained comparatively rare until about 1720. The terms in more general use were 'staff', 'stave' or 'stick'." → "The term 'bat' remained comparatively rare until about 1720, with the terms 'staff', 'stave' or 'stick' being more prevalent".. Done. Much better.
  • Link "Gloucester". Done.
  • Delink "cricket ball", as this is linked earlier in the section... hmm... this could probably be delinked there too, with "cricket ball" being linked in the 'a kind of game with a ball' quote in the "Beginning of adult participation" section. Done.
  • Comma after "invited", I think? Done. Could be a colon instead, I reckon, but a comma is fine.
  • "John Derrick" can be referred to as "Derrick". Done.
  • Comma after 'nowadays'. Done.
  • "It is also the first mention of cricket in the county of Middlesex". This seems a bit "out the blue" at the end of the paragraph. Could Middlesex be mentioned earlier, perhaps around "1680"... "...dates from a match in Middlesex in 1680... and then attach to the sentence with a semi-colon "; this constitutes the first mention of cricket in the county". Agreed, and done.
  • "was in vogue" could be simplified to "Although single wicket was popular during this period...". Done.
  • I'd omit "so it is out of scope in this article". Done.
  • The final paragraph, I'd merge with the "The earliest known mention of the umpire dates from 1680..." paragraph. Yes, they belong together.
English cricket in the early 18th century
Patrons
  • Connect the sentence following "Arundel men'" with a semicolon. Done.
  • I wonder if "Arundel was a prominent centre of cricket in the 18th century" could be put in brackets? Like: "The venue was probably either Goodwood, where Richmond had his estate, or Arundel (which was a prominent centre of cricket in the 18th century), possibly on Bury Hill, which was used for cricket in later years." Also needs a comma after Bury Hill, which I have put into my suggestion. Good suggestion to keep the Arundel pieces together. Done.
  • "...main benefactor, and became a famous patron of Sussex cricket for the next thirty years. → "...main benefactor, becoming a famous patron of Sussex cricket for the next thirty years.". Done.
  • "...(sic) year'. He went on to wish the Duke... slight rewording: "...(sic) year', going on to wish the Duke...". Done.
  • After "played at Bury Hill", I'd remove "Arundel", as it has already been established that Bury Hill is near there, and the same after "Berry Hill" in brackets. Done.
  • Amazing large crowd watched the match at Berry Hill, I hike there regularly, and is very hilly and remote from Arundel.
That's interesting. I just double-checked the source, and it does say 'a vast concourse'. I often find, though, considerable hyperbole in 18th century reports. For example, the same report says the two teams were 'the finest and best that ever was seen to Play', and you see similar comments time and time again. If I were to use those words, I'd be describing 1980s West Indies when they had Malcolm Marshall, Viv Richards, Gordon Greenidge, Jeff Dujon, etc.
Bury Hill must be in the South Downs, I presume? We lived in Kent in the 1980s, and we went to the Downs a few times for walking and scenery. It wasn't a national park then.
It's right in the downs! 3 miles from Arundel, but up a very steep hill with stunning views over the Arun River valley, toward Amberley quarry (which you might recognise from A View to a Kill). Lovely part of the world, good pubs and Roman stuff. AA (talk) 21:27, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
The terms of the wager
  • Comma after "and the game". Done.
  • Comma after "four wickets standing". Done.
  • "Another court case followed. It is known that Lord Chief Justice Pratt presided over the case and ordered them, as in the London versus Rochester match in 1718, to play it out so that all wagers could be fulfilled." Could this short sentence be merged? "Another court case followed, presided over by Lord Chief Justice Pratt, who ordered them, as in the London versus Rochester match in 1718, to play it out so that all wagers could be fulfilled." Something like that? Done. Used your wording, which is fine.
Matches of the early 18th century
  • Comma after 'Maulden'. Done.
  • "On Thursday, 26 June 1707, there was a London versus Mitcham match at Lamb's Conduit Field, Holborn. The result is unknown." I'd merge the short sentence at the end, something like this: "On Thursday, 26 June 1707, there was a London versus Mitcham match at Lamb's Conduit Field in Holborn, with The result unknown.". Done. Inserted a semi-colon.
  • I think the sentence that follows needs to be split, I reckon a semicolon after "London Cricket Club" might do. Done.
  • After "played London twice", I think a colon would fit nicely in there. Done.
  • "...drawn from local residents." → semicolon after residents, to connect the interconnected following sentence. Done.
  • I'm not sure "...who was the first modern researcher..." adds much to the article, I'd suggest putting that into Waghorn's article. Done. That was just a comment, really, which wasn't needed.
  • I'd remove the DOB/DOD of Bedle. Done.
  • "He was 'reckoned to be the most expert player in England'" is it possible to attribute this quote to a named source? Yes, it was Buckley, page 48, although Bowen later did half a chapter on Bedle's place in history.
  • "His son Will played for 'our parish'..." → commas before and after "Will". Done.
Dartford versus London
  • "...Conduit Fields, and Kent won." → "...Conduit Fields, with Kent victorious." Done.
  • "...On Saturday, 9 July 1720, London versus Kent at White Conduit Fields was won by London." I wonder if this could be worded more succinctly, perhaps: "...On Saturday, 9 July 1720, London defeated Kent at White Conduit Fields."? Done.
  • The sentence that follows could also be connected to this, following Fields: ...Fields, with the match marred by two London players being badly injured following a clash of heads". Done.
  • I'd remove "(a)" and "(b)". Done.
  • South Sea Bubble is linked twice. Done.
  • The sentence with the second linked "South Sea Bubble" is sort of a longer version of this sentence: "the South Sea Bubble which ruined many investors, and so could have reduced cricket patronage." I wonder if this is repeating what has been put in this sentence, or whether parts of the latter sentence can be merged into the former? Personally, I'd only look to merge "South Sea Company was found to be insolvent" into the former. Done.
  • Comma after "1712". Done.
  • "...White Conduit Fields. The match was abandoned following a dispute. I'd merge the short sentence, something like: "...White Conduit Fields, with the match being abandoned following a dispute." Done.
  • "Teams styled 'London' were already in existence, as above, but this is the first actual reference to a 'London Club'." I'd suggest moving this info to the part that reads "there was an actual reference to a London Club in 1722", in the "Development of important cricket: 1660–1700" section, to avoid repeating info and for succinction purposes! Done. I think all that was needed was to delete the sentence here, and add Maun as an extra source to the earlier bit.
Other matches in the 1720s
  • "...unknown venue, and Kingston won." → "...unknown venue, with Kingston victorious.". Done.
  • "...unknown date in 1723. The result is unknown." → "...unknown date in 1723, the result unknown." Done.
  • "Mr Dawson" → just "Dawson". Done.
  • Comma after "Islington". Done.
The growth of cricket in England and overseas
  • "It so happens that...", I'd drop omit this and begin the sentence with "These". Done.
  • The following short paragraph is with in the context of North America and can be merged to the first. Done.
  • Link New World. Done.
  • Ditto, the 1721 paragraph can also be merged, as it is in the remit of the first. Done.
  • Comma after "years". Done.
  • "The rest were among, but were not all of, the Home Counties." I think this can be said more succinctly: "The rest were some of the Home Counties." Done.
  • I'd probably omit the list as it repeats what is in the previous sections.
I had some doubts myself about this list, and I agree with you that it is unnecessary. I've retained all the citations, however, merging a couple of them; and I've added Oxfordshire to the Oxford University origin in the earlier section.
  • I see that West Indies is mentioned in the lead, but not discussed here, I'd add that into this section to keep it in the lead. Removed it from the lead, because there is no definite mention of cricket there until after 1725.
Known organised matches (c.1610 to 1725) + Earliest known participants (1598 to 1725)
  • Change "vogue" to popular. Done.
  • Some styling notes: I'd capitalise the titles within the tables, and might change source to "Ref", though no biggie on the latter. Done.
  • Some sections of the table are white and others are grey, with no explanation as to why. Is this simply a styling error?
It's a default, not an error. The first is a basic "wikitable" class with minimal style parameters. The second is a "wikitable plainrowheaders" which uses the rowspan function. PRH highlights the 'key' column (year, in this case), while rowspan highlights the content that is common to its span. This is standard for that functionality. I can provide an explanation note if you like, but there may be a problem if FAC requires tables to be a particular class, and I don't know about that.
It's very odd. It seems where there is more than one person mentioned, it goes to grey. Ideally, it needs to be all one colour. AA (talk) 21:35, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just reading some of the notes in both tables, and they largely repeat what is in the body. A couple of options here: omit the notes completely (particularly in the second), or whittle them down.
Agreed. I recall that both of these tables had separate existences originally, and were added to this article sometime after they had been developed. The notes, as such, were largely drawn from this article, so they are indeed largely repetitive. I've removed both sets of notes, and the tables are now limited to straight facts, which is better.
Much better now, more concise and provides a good summary. AA (talk) 20:06, 16 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • I wonder how organised the 1721 fixture was, sounds more like an ad hoc match, rather than something strictly organised. Possibly the same with the 1717 match as well.
I agree. I've removed 'organised' throughout, as it is inappropriate given its modern context. Most matches at this time must have been ad hoc to a large extent. So, the title of this section is now 'Known matches'.
  • I see that the two London fielders were injured with a clash of heads chasing the ball. I'd mention this in the body of text that discusses this. Done.
  • The 1702 Arundel result in the table (unknown), contradicts the result in the prose (D of R XI victory)
The result is actually unknown. It has been surmised that Lennox bought the brandy to celebrate, but he might have wanted to drown his sorrows..... I've changed the narrative to make no comment on a result.
Would First known use of English cricket venues (1610–1825) be what you have in mind for date/venue?
@BlackJack: something like that! AA (talk) 20:06, 16 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Notes
References
  • Metalicat has identified some of the issues I spotted. Okay, I've noticed an overlap.
  • Source titles should be consistent so that all the words are capitalised, except for prepositions and conjunctions. Could you give me an example, please, maybe using John Lichfield (ref. no. 7), to make sure there's no confusion. Thanks.
@BlackJack: sure! French hamlet claims to be site of the first recorded cricket match → French Hamlet Claims to be Site of the First Recorded Cricket Match AA (talk) 20:06, 16 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, AA. I'll go through them all. The vast majority of citations are sfn, so there aren't many to do.
Done, except for #65, which is controlled by Template:Formatprice.
Image captions
  • The Royal Grammar School in Guildford where John Derrick was a pupil when he and his friends played creckett c. 1550. Comma after Guildford. Might be worth adding (pictured in 2007) as well. Done.
  • The Oliver Cromwell caption, attribute it to Robert Walker (painter) and give the year of the work (1649). Done.
  • MTC
Will crack on tomorrow with some more. AA (talk) 22:04, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, AA. This has all been very useful. Jack (talk) 23:54, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
MTC! And you're welcome Jack, getting there :D AA (talk) 22:41, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Thanks for addressing the points rasied Jack. There is just the odd colour difference in the table, but I'm sure that can be addressed in time (tbh, it's stumped me!). AA (talk) 21:38, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you, AA, for a really thorough review. Your findings and suggestions have certainly improved the article enormously. I'm puzzled by that table colour thing myself, I must admit. I'm going to look at other formats, and see if one of them will do the job. Anyway, thanks again, and all the best, Jack (talk) 23:17, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Metalicat

[edit]
  • Scope: I have done a non-specialist pass on lead and body alignment, internal consistency, the tables and citation mechanics.
  • Opening date: I think the first sentence has an internal calendar problem. In English Old Style dating, 17 January 1597 falls in the year we now call 1598. On the Julian calendar, 17 January 1598 was a Tuesday, not a Monday. Monday fits literal Julian 17 January 1597, which contemporaries using the Lady Day year would have called 17 January 1596. Which date does Bowen p. 261 actually give? The same wording appears again in "Earliest definite references".
Bowen says: '17 January 1597 Old Style which is 1598 New Style'.
According to this calendar, 17 January 1597 was a Monday in the Julian calendar. Of course, this uses the January to December year. I think you're right about the contemporary date as 17 January 1596 (pre-Lady Day). Other sources are vague about the date, except Altham and Underdown who both say 1598.
As agreed in the end discussion, both mentions of Monday have been removed. Thanks for your help with this.
  • Lead and body:
    • English colonists had introduced cricket to North America and the West Indies: the body covers Virginia, but I could not find the West Indies below the lead.
      In fact, the earliest definite reference to cricket in the West Indies is after 1725, so I've taken that out of the lead.
    • The explanation that cricket can only be played on relatively short grass, followed by the forest-clearings and sheep-grazing material, appears only in the lead. Recommend moving it into "Origins and etymology" with its supporting citation.
      I hadn't noticed that it wasn't in the narrative. As it happens, it fits perfectly into the piece about bat-and-ball sport evolution, so I've moved it there. Same sources as for the existing piece.
    • The lead has the sailors and traders of the East India Company; the body mentions only sailors.
      It does. I've removed 'traders'. All sources refer to sailors only.
    • fewer than thirty historically important eleven-a-side matches: the table includes a ten-a-side series and a two-against-four odds match, while the body identifies the 1697 Sussex game as the earliest recorded eleven-a-side match. What is the basis for "eleven-a-side" in the lead's count?
      I've removed 'eleven-a-side', which was something of an assumption.
    • Two meanings of "historically important" seem to be in use. The lead says village matches are important simply because they are known, but note 2 says the term means of the highest standard. I suggest distinguishing historical significance from playing status.
      Very good point. I've taken a chunk out of paragraph 2 so that the focus is on known matches, without mention of importance or organisation. The ACS guide concerns matches in the 18th century, so it applies to the latter part of this article, but it's best left out, all things considered.
  • Internal consistency:
    • The 1702 prose says Richmond's XI defeated an Arundel XI; the matches table gives the result as unknown. Which does McCann p. 1 support?
      It is actually unknown, so I've taken out the bit about celebration.
    • The Winchester reference is hedged in the prose as a probable reference ... if so, but the county summary states Hampshire – 1647, at Winchester College without qualification.
      You're right, but the county summary has been removed, as suggested by AA above, because of repetition.
    • The prose says Maulden almost certainly refers to Town Malling; the table says it was possibly Maidstone or, more likely, Town Malling. These should use the same level of confidence.
      Done.
    • Paston's letter is quoted as a game of criquett in the prose and a 'cricketting' in the participants table. The two passages use different sources. Which wording appears in the letter?
      He wrote about his son playing 'a game of criquett'. I'm sure 'cricketting' is a term used elsewhere, and might be in another article, so it was put in here by mistake.
    • Marchant called the side 'our parish' often in the prose but invariably in the table.
      Again, you're right, but the table notes have gone too. 'Often' is definitely the correct option.
  • Tables:
    • Both tables repeat long passages from the prose, and several of the inconsistencies above occur in the repeated material. I suggest reducing the notes to information not already given in the body.
      This is the same point made by AA. All notes have been removed. The tables formerly had separate existences, and this article was used to populate their notes, so they should have been dealt with when integration took place.
    • The organised-matches table includes the 1721 Cambay entry, which the prose describes as sailors amusing themselves, and the 1717 entry records Marchant's first diary mention rather than an identifiable fixture. Do these belong under "Known organised matches"?
      They didn't, so I removed all mention of 'organisation'. Nearly all early matches were ad hoc to a large extent. This is an extension of your fifth point under 'Lead and body'.
    • Its introduction still says single wicket was in vogue at the time, although the same sentence was changed to "popular" in the rules section.
      Changed earlier per AA.
    • The participants introduction says each year is when the person's name first appears in surviving sources. Bedle is placed under 1709 because he could have taken part in that match, but the evidence cited in his row is a 1768 obituary. Is there a surviving source that names him in 1709?
      No. I've reworked the paragraph about early players to remove 1709, and I've taken Bedle out of the table. I think I've seen a book which suggested he must have played in the 1709 match, but it was a long time ago, and it doesn't seem to be a book I have now. So, best to leave him out unless a source is found.
    • Does McCann p. 4 connect Gage and Richmond with Slindon by 1725? Their shared location cell gives Slindon and Sussex, although the same row says this was their earliest cricketing mention.
      No, they were both Sussex at this time, although they also ran their own XIs. I've removed Slindon.
  • Attribution and sourcing:
    • All acknowledged subject experts and authorities agree and dismissed or ignored by authorities are broader than the attribution supplied. Recommend naming the historians whose views the cited pages establish and identifying who dismissed each alternative theory.
      I've rewritten those parts of 'Origins and etymology' as the 'authorities' statements are too broad. Instead, I've focused on specific references, rather than what can be called 'general views'. A case in point is David Underdown's dismissal of speculation and going straight to the Guildford court case.
    • The "Creag" section says it is possibly an early spelling of the word craic, but its note appears to establish only a sense of "crack". Does a source explicitly connect the wardrobe-account word to crack or craic? Otherwise this looks like an editorial inference.
      The source for 'creag = craic' is the Association of Cricket Statisticians and Historians (ACS), but it is conjecture as it cannot be proved. I don't think their view has ever been published in any formal sense, and none of the other main writers have done more than mention 'creag' as it was written in 1300. John Major states categorically that it was not cricket, but he is unable to offer an explanation for what it might have been, which is fair enough. I think the best thing to do is remove the references to 'craic' and 'crack'. Done.
  • Citation mechanics:
    • Kingston versus Richmond is cited to Maun p. 28 in the prose and p. 23 in the table.
      23 is the correct page. Well spotted.
    • Penshurst is cited to McCann p. 4 in the prose and p. 18 in the table.
      Ha! A problem with McCann is that he numbers paragraphs as well as pages. This one is paragraph 18 on page 4.
    • The Gage letter is cited to McCann p. 19 in the prose and p. 4 in the participants table.
      Ditto.
    • The Martineau book citation has no page number.
      I know someone who has that book. Have sent them a text to ask.
      My friend doesn't have that book any more. I thought perhaps David Terry would help, and he does, but he doesn't mention ice hockey. Martineau might have done. Amended sentence with Terry as the source.
    • The St Paul's School claim uses a full Wisden citation in the prose and an sfn to the same work in the table. I suggest using the bibliography entry consistently.
      Done.
  • Mechanical points:
    • dates from dates from in the umpire paragraph.
      Done.
    • just south of hite Conduit Fields in the White Conduit House caption.
      Done.
    • the game, while incomplete was the subject needs its closing comma: the game, while incomplete, was the subject.
      Done.
    • The participants table gives Aleppo as then in Turkey; the body uses the historically appropriate Ottoman Empire.
      Yes, that was done earlier. Used Ottoman Empire in both.

The article has a clear chronological basis, and the court records, diaries and correspondence make the surviving evidence easy to follow. Most of my comments concern duplication and consistency rather than the underlying account. Happy to revisit as these are addressed. Metalicat (talk) 16:07, 15 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for this, Metalicat. There is some overlap with AA above, so I've already addressed a few points. I'll work through the rest, and let you know when I've done. All the best, Jack (talk) 18:46, 16 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, Metalicat. I think I've covered everything except the date of origin, which we need to think about. I'm inclined to just say January 1958 (NS), but I'd like your further comments first. Thanks again, Jack (talk) 23:40, 16 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Jack. On the date, I'd go with 1598, following Bowen's own gloss and Altham and Underdown. The one element that cannot be reconciled is the weekday: Monday fits Julian 17 January 1597 in modern reckoning, but Bowen's '1597 Old Style which is 1598 New Style' places the Julian date at 17 January 1598, which was a Tuesday. Unless a source actually gives the weekday, I'd simply delete 'Monday' from the first sentence and from 'Earliest definite references'. Everything else then holds together, since 17 January 1597 (Old Style) does equate to 27 January 1598 in the Gregorian calendar. Your 'January 1598 (NS)' would work equally well, though I'd keep the day of the month as Bowen supplies it. (I'll assume 1958 was a slip of the finger rather than a bold revision to the chronology!)
I just removed the two Mondays. I think it would be a very long article if it went all the way to 1958, ha! Jack (talk) 13:03, 17 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
A few small things from a final read-through:
  • The 1702 prose still says Richmond's XI defeated an Arundel XI, while the table gives the result as unknown.
Didn't notice that when I removed the celebration bit. Done.
  • The same paragraph now says Arundel was a prominent centre of cricket in the 18th century twice, once in brackets and once as a standalone sentence.
It's amazing how things like that can go unseen. Done.
  • In the matches table, the 15 July 1725 row still cites McCann p. 19 where the prose has p. 4. Is this the paragraph-versus-page issue again?
It is. I should have checked this table when I corrected the participants one yesterday. Done.
I've just noticed that the index of this book uses paragraph numbers, not page numbers. So, a reader looks in the index, notes the number, goes to the entry, and then uses the number on the note as the page number......
  • In the participants table, the 1628 row cites McCann p. xxxiii, but the East Lavant prose cites pp. xxxiv–xxxvii; and the 1647 row cites p. xxxiv, where the prose has p. xxxix for Selsey. Which pages carry those cases?
All things considered, I've decided to check every citation of McCann. Will be back later.
I've examined every McCann citation, and made a number of changes. Could you please take another look, to make sure I haven't missed anything? Thanks.
  • Two very minor ones: the non-renewal of the Licensing Act is explained twice in 'Development of important cricket', once before the 1697 report and again after it; and the Bedle sentence carries the same Buckley p. 48 citation twice.
I've trimmed one of the press pieces, and removed one of the Buckley citations.
Once the date wording and these last few are settled, I'll be glad to add my support. Metalicat (talk) 08:00, 17 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, Metalicat. I think I've covered everything now, but please let me know of anything else that needs attention. Thanks again, and all the best. Jack (talk) 19:28, 17 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Jack. I've taken another pass through the current version, including the McCann citations in the prose and both tables. The substantive points from my review are resolved, and the page references I queried now line up.
Support. Thanks for working through the review so carefully. Metalicat (talk) 00:14, 18 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Metalicat, for a thorough review which has been a great help to me in improving the article. All the best, Jack (talk) 01:00, 18 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Llewee

[edit]
  • "Origins and etymology"
    • "southern counties like Berkshire, Essex, Hampshire, and Middlesex" - I would suggest specifying "southern English counties" as the country we are talking about should be introduced in the article's body.
      Done.
    • "As early as about 1610, a cricket match was played at Chevening, in Kent, between teams representing the Downs and the Weald." - I am not sure about this jumping back and forth in time. Shouldn't this be in the earliest definite references or village cricket development section?
      Duplication, really. I've merged it into the village cricket sentence, keeping the link and source.
    • "A number of words in common use at the time are thought to be possible sources for cricket's name" - The time period being discussed should be specified. Also, the various French and Dutch words mentioned here were presumably widely used in England.--Llewee (talk) 23:50, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
      Actually, the source does say 16th century, so I've put that instead of 'at the time'. There had been an influx of people from Flanders especially, escaping religious persecution, so much of their language had been converted to English.
    • "Cricket was probably devised by children... " - The paragraph doesn't really give any justification for this argument. Is it just that the first people who were known to have played it were kids?
    • "The invention of the game could have happened in Norman or Plantagenet times anytime before 1300; or even in Saxon times before 1066." - Doesn't this contradict Underwood's comment that nothing is known about the origins of cricket?--Llewee (talk) 23:50, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
      Combining these two points, I've reworked the paragraph, which is now two, by having Underdown immediately following the suggestions by Altham and Arlott, which are somewhat speculative. Could you please have a look, and let me know what you think? Thanks.
      Yeah, that seems clearer.--Llewee (talk) 21:44, 20 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Will continue with this.

Hi, Llewee, and thank you for joining this FAC. All the best, Jack (talk) 01:40, 20 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

    • "which may have been played in Dál Riata as early as the 6th century" - I would suggest explaining where this was.--Llewee (talk) 21:52, 20 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
      That's useful to have.
    • "Others are the definitely Celtic sports" - I would suggest being a bit more specific here, "Celtic" is I think a bit of an ambiguous and contested term.--Llewee (talk) 21:52, 20 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
      Yes, good point. I've said hurling is Irish, and shinty is Scottish, so there is in fact a considerable difference.
    • "it is generally believed that cricket essentially belongs to the same family of bat-and-ball games" - What does that mean in practice if its not known if they related to each other?
      There is actually some duplication here now because of a sentence that was taken out of the lead during one of the earlier reviews. I'll look into this next. Decided to remove the 'generally believed' sentence altogether, as it effectively repeated the relocated sentence, now in the previous paragraph.
    • "but it was almost certainly something quite different" - Could this be clarified?
      Changed the wording to say what most historians believe, and added a few more citations. The fact is that no one knows what 'creag' was, and the suggestion by Bowen was probably optimistic at best.
    • "The earliest definite reference to cricket being played anywhere in England (and hence in the world)" - This feels like an odd way of wording it, maybe say something like "being played in it's home country of England".
      Yes, now you say that, it does look a bit awkward. I've altered the wording along the lines you suggest.
    • "It is perhaps significant that cricket is the only one of the plaies to be specifically named." - firstly why, secondly I would suggest translating "plaies"
      The two sources both mention cricket being the only one of the games actually specified, but it reads a little POV-ish, so I've just converted it to a straight fact. 'Plaies' in this context meant 'games', but I think (haven't checked) that they also used the expression for theatre.
    • "to thrum a wench lustily till the bed cry giggaioggie" - middle English is so funny
      Ha! I agree. I remember doing Chaucer at school, and he gave us a lot of laughs. For example: and Nicholas, he let fly a fart.
  • "The development of village cricket: 1610–1660"
    • "recorded a 'cricketing' of the Weald and the Upland versus the Chalk Hill at Chevening 'about thirty years since'" - Does a 'cricketing' mean a cricket team?
      No one can be 100% sure, but it is widely believed to mean 'a match' or 'playing cricket'. I've put (match) after 'cricketing' for clarification.
    • "This is the earliest known village cricket match; and the earliest known match in Kent" - Could the meaning of 'village cricket' be explained? I assume its referring to more organised games involving adults.--Llewee (talk) 12:50, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
      Not necessarily adults, as village cricket today includes matches between teams of boys and girls. It basically means a match between teams representing two villages or parishes, so it is supposedly a lesser class of contest than one between two towns, for example, and is minor in comparison with county cricket.
      I've rewritten the latter part of the paragraph as: The match is the earliest on record anywhere in the world. It involved two village/parish teams, and these contests became popular in the first half of the 17th century, so the match also marks the known beginning of village cricket, which has continued to the present day. The main source is Roy Webber.
    • "Breaking the Sabbath" - This feels a bit newspapery, perhaps say something like "Religious restrictions" or "Interference with sunday worship".
Now you've said it, there is a whiff of tabloid there. I've changed it to Religious issues, if that's okay.
    • "The declaration had limited success until the Civil War began in 1642. The Puritans were by then in control of Parliament which closed the theatres..." - Should we be jumping ahead here? This is discussed later in the section.
I've done a merger here with the later content, to restore chronology.
    • "The Declaration of Sports manuscript was publicly burned by order of the Puritan Parliament in 1643" - Why?
I've included this with the ban on recreational activities.
    • I think the text from "The latter reason was because the rules at the time allowed the batsman to hit the ball twice, ... denounced cricket as 'profane', especially if played on Sunday.[42]" could probably be one paragraph. Llewee (talk) 14:34, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
That's fair enough. It isn't too long, and it encapsulates everything between the significant events of 1622 and 1642.
    • "Fatalities" - You mention a child's death in the previous section, maybe change it to something more specific (e.g. "player fatalities")
Actually, no child had been killed, because 'had like to have' meant 'was likely to have'. Even so, I think 'Player fatalities' is a better section title.
    • " When the first Laws of Cricket were encoded in 1744, it was illegal to hit the ball twice, and a batsman breaking the rule was to be given out" - I think "illegal" isn't the best word here. Presumably you wouldn't be arrested. Also, isn't this a bit out of the article's time period?
I think mention of the 1744 code is needed in this instance, but not in the text, so I've converted that sentence into a footnote. I agree that 'illegal' was a bit strong.
    • "The record of the 1624 case confirms that two villages, Horsted Keynes and West Hoathly, were involved in the match, providing further evidence of the growth of village cricket.[45]" - I think this sentence should be moved straight after that case. --Llewee (talk) 15:11, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Done.

Thanks for your feedback so far, Llewee. It's been very useful, and the article is much better as a result. All the best, Jack (talk) 15:34, 25 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

  • "The beginning of amateur cricket"
    • "The beginnings of cricket's social division between amateurs and professionals" - Is this separate from village cricket or is village cricket the amateurs?
No, the social division was constant from then until 1962, when so-called amateurism was abolished. It was a case of gentry and working-class playing together for the same team, and it applied equally to village, county, and even Test cricket.
    • "by forming select teams that would improve their chances of winning" - of experienced players?
Many players were experienced, but it's believed the patrons were especially on the lookout for young talent, whom they saw as a long-term investment. Basically, a select team was the best eleven players available, including both gentry and workers.
    • "Curiously, considering the huge sums of money staked later in the century," - this seems like a bit of an odd word to use? Given that the point is that the bet was much smaller than later in the century then maybe "incongruously" would be better?
Yes, 'incongruously' is more apt. Thanks.
    • "a certain unlawful game called cricket" - Why was it considered unlawful? These two sentences on the Cranbrook case don't seem to be that closely linked to the rest of the paragraph.
I've moved things around about and added 1652 to the 1646 paragraph; it was unlawful if played on a Sunday, so I've added a clause to that effect.
I'm constantly surprised by article titles. Done.
    • "alive and well during the interregnum" - maybe add a link to Interregnum (England) as this seems to be the first time the period is mentioned
Done. That's a good point because, strictly speaking, it wasn't really the same as the Commonwealth.
    • "As evidenced by the legal cases of 1646 and 1652, described above, cricket was played jointly by gentry and workers." - It seems a bit odd to repeat information discussed earlier related to adult men at the end of a paragraph about young boys.
Especially as it was unsourced. That seems to have been a leftover after some other text was relocated during one of the previous reviews. It doesn't add anything, so I've removed it.
    • both of those establishments were attended by William Goldwin who, in 1706, wrote a Latin poem of 95 lines on a rural cricket match" - making this link sort of implies that the poem is set at one of the universities, which presumably wasn't the case?
That's true. I've reworked the paragraph to say he was a former student when he wrote his poem.
I've added the translation, which is 'Youthful Muses'. Jack (talk) 13:08, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Development of important cricket: 1660–1700" - This feels like an odd choice of name.
There is a reason for 'important' but it's complex, so best to simplify the title. I've changed it to 'Development of cricket from 1660 to 1700'.
    • "'the game took a real grip' especially in the south-eastern counties"- I would suggest specifying that this was in England.
Done.
    • "which is the first reference to cricket there, a popular venue for matches during the 17th and 18th centuries" - Presumably this is the late 17th century if the first reference is in 1666?
I decided to remove the latter clause, as the same could be said of several venues.
    • "The Restoration of the Monarchy in England in 1660..." - I think this paragraph belongs with the first paragraph and probably some repetition could be removed. In both paragraphs, however, their seems to be assertions that the game was growing alongside comments that their is a lack of evidence, which is a bit confusing.
I've done something of rewrite in this area, and combined the content into two paragraphs, with the Paston one moved lower down. Could you please have another look at this and see what you think. Thanks.
    • "in the general euphoria which both accompanied and followed these historic events," - this comes across a bit non-neutral, I doubt everyone was delighted by the regime change
Yes, Birley's words were 'great upsurge of sport' so I've quoted him.
    • "One momentous aspect of this evolution" - I think "significant" would be a neutral sounding word to use here.
Done.
    • "That was equivalent to about £18,000 in present-day terms." - I would suggest moving this too a footnote. If you use this template {{Inflation|GBP|100|1664|r=0|fmt=eq|cursign=£}} it will update over time.
Good idea. I've done the same with '50 guineas' in the next sentence.
    • "It has been claimed that Mitcham Cricket Club was formed in 1685" - by who if their isn't any evidence
I'm glad you've asked that. Frankly, I think the 1685 claim is BS. I've thought a number of times I should just remove it, but the source is supposedly reputable, and the claim does help to introduce the subject of earliest known club. Anyway, I've reworded it for now.
    • "Freedom of the press made it possible for sporting events to be reported; but, as Major says, reports in the early newspapers were sparse, although trivia tended to make good copy, and large wagers between rival patrons were given coverage." - I think this should be included with the discussion of the liberalisation of the press in the previous paragraph.
Agreed. Done.
    • "No match reports could be found so the results and scores remain unknown." - I think "survive" or "are known to exist" would be clearer than "could be found".
Done.
A bit POV-ish, I think, so I've just stated that it was the earliest-known match in Surrey. Jack (talk) 22:52, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Angels and Demons (collection)

[edit]
Nominator(s): ♠PMC♠ (talk) 04:27, 25 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

In February 2010, Alexander McQueen committed suicide following the death of his mother. He left behind an unfinished collection of sublime showpiece garments he had draped and sewn on the mannequin himself. In the wake of his death, his team completed the sixteen garments and presented them in private showings as a kind of last rites. The solemn presentations closed with the whispered words "There is no more". ♠PMC♠ (talk) 04:27, 25 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Camilasdandelions

[edit]
  • Yup, deliberate. Redlinks are not prohibited anywhere onwiki
Lead
  • "prints that McQueen had been experimenting" -- suggest using "had experimented" here
  • "with in the past few seasons." -- what about "previous seasons"
  • That implies a broader range across his career, whereas "the past few" makes it clearer that it was specifically only the past couple
  • "featuring the sophisticated digitally-engineered prints" -- MOS:HYPHEN: "Avoid using a hyphen after a standard -ly adverb"..
  • Done
  • "most well-known" -> "best-known"
  • Done
  • "whether or not it was indicative of McQueen's mental state" -> "whether it indicated McQueen's mental state"
  • I've trimmed "or not" but left the rest as-is
Background
  • ", spanning 1992–2010" -> "which spanned from 1992 to 2010"
  • Yours is longer for no particular benefit
  • "been a fucking awful week but my friends have been great but now i have to some how pull myself together and finish with the HELLS ANGELS & PROLIFIC DAEMONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" -- Question, is it fine to violate general MOS in quote box? I would rewrite them, but this case is kinda vague..
  • Principle of minimal change suggests we leave it as is: "the wording of the quoted text must be faithfully reproduced". Reformatting this into pristine English would not be a faithful reproduction of McQueen's idiosyncratic style.
  • "McQueen's life had been turbulent" -- I think "was" is more stable here since the following sentences are in past tense
  • No, I don't think that's correct, since we're talking about the past of the past here
  • "insommnia -> "insomnia"
  • Typo fixed
Concept and creative process
  • Note C needs sources
  • Fixed
  • "completion.[c][36][10] A complete collection was normally at least thirty." -- imo you'd better connect these sentences since it is read bit awkwardly so try smth like: ".. stages of completion—roughly half the size of a typical thirty-look collection."
  • We already have a semi-colon in the sentence, I'd rather keep it separated than have both and four post-sentence notes
  • "before; It's a Jungle Out There" -> "before; his Autumn/Winter 1997 collection, It's a Jungle Out There"
  • Why though?
    • Because as I know there was no brief explanation of this before. Did I miss something? Camilasdandelions (✉️) 10:47, 16 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
      • I think a reasonably intelligent reader will be able to understand that Jungle is one of his collections, given that the name immediately follows the clause "He had incorporated paintings into his work before"
  • "sophisticated digitally-engineered" -- same as before
  • Done
  • "Shorter dresses were followed with long draped gowns" -> "Shorter dresses gave way to long draped gowns"
  • Style preference; it's fine as-is
Individual ensembles
  • "She notes that on the rear of the garment" -- "noted" should be used
  • Fixed
  • You used past tense for the first look, but not for the Look 3, 4, 5, and so on: "Look 3 is a short dress ..."
  • On reflection, I've harmonized all of the descriptions to present tense, rather than past tense; I think this is more in line with MOS:TENSE. Exceptions are info about the runway styling because this refers to a single event in the past.
  • "The slightly asymmetrical hem reveals an underskirt of gold-painted duck feathers" -- same as before, past tense should be used
  • "It may have been inspired by the royal mantle of Roger II of Sicily." -- So it is inspired or not?
  • Critics often speculate as to specific inspirations. McQueen wasn't in the habit of releasing Coles' Notes providing in-depth explanations of every individual thing he was drawing from. I've added the name of the critic here though.
  • Past tense should be used:
    • "Look 10 has a double print of the archangel Gabriel mirrored on the front of the dress, with the angel's wings wrapping around to the back of the dress, where loose folds of fabric also evoke wings."
    • "Look 12 has a chiffon skirt"
    • "Look 13 is a white"
    • "Look 14 is a full-length"
    • "Look 15 has a black long"
    • "best-known look from the collection is the last"
  • "vertically-ruched" -- same as before
  • Fixed
  • "The ensemble may have been a reference to the gold and white palette of McQueen's first haute couture collection for Givenchy, The Search for the Golden Fleece (Spring/Summer 1997)." Can you be more clarifying on this? They have been a reference or not?
  • As I said previously, sometimes these things are speculative. McQueen was in the habit of being self-referential, so it's entirely likely he was glancing back.
  • Red link: The Search for the Golden Fleece
  • Not prohibited, as noted.
Runway show
  • As the runway show "was originally scheduled to be presented on 9 March 2010 at La Conciergerie in Paris, but the full-scale show was cancelled after McQueen's death", what about naming the section "Presentations"?
  • What was shown was still a runway show, it's just that the full-scale public one was cancelled
  • "on 9 March 2010 at La Conciergerie" -> "on 9 March 2010, at La Conciergerie"
  • Unnecessary hyphens: "head-wrap", "head-covering"
  • "McQueen had listened to in his studio while working" -- remove "had" for the consistency (McQueen listened while working, so no need to use the great past tense imo)
  • No, because this is the past of the past - in the past, the people picking the soundtrack picked the music that McQueen was listening to before that
  • "Before the show," and "The shows closed with the whispered words" -- Is "show" right wording? As I know the "show" was cancelled so the "presentations" "were held in the Louis XV salon at the Hôtel de Clermont-Tonnerre".
  • They were still shows though
  • "They may also have been a reference to similar head-coverings worn in McQueen's Voss (Spring/Summer 2001)." -- clarification needed
  • What part of this is not clear?
Contemporary
  • "It was generally felt that the runway shows" -- "showed"
  • This is not correct
  • "Horyn was moved" -- You should described who is Horyn, and later use only her lasy name on "Similarly, Cathy Horyn of The New York Times emphasised the hand-crafting in Angels and Demons as compared to the digital focus of Plato's Atlantis."
  • Swapped, this was an error from rearranging the sections
  • McQueen archivist John Matheson has described Angels and Demons as a "bookend" -- remove "has"
Analysis
  • "He describes McQueen as metaphorically" -- "described"
  • "embroidery taken from The Garden of Earthly Delights"
  • Both done
Legacy
  • "The Victoria and Albert Museum in London owns copies of Look 2, with the Hieronymus Bosch print; Look 5, a gold minidress; and Look 11, a light grey gown.[104][105][106] The National Gallery of Victoria owns the dress and boots from Look 3, the dress from Look 4, and a pair of boots from the retail collection.[107][108][109] The Museum of Fine Arts, Boston owns a copy of Look 11.[110]" -- better rephrasing it by using "holds", "possesses", "houses", etc
  • I don't see the benefit in the elegant variation
    • There is, using various verbs is much helpful than using only "own" Camilasdandelions (✉️) 10:47, 16 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
      • I think in this instance, when we're dryly recounting a bunch of museum holdings, introducing variation for the sake thereof is unnecessary and jarring. It's better to use a short innocuous word several times than draw the reader's attention to the writing by ticking off a bunch of thesaurus entries. (It's like in a novel, when two people are talking and every line has a new dialogue tag - Jane growled, Alice hissed, Jane sneered, Alice drawled... it gets distracting.)
  • "in the show's first room" -- what about ".. the exhibition's opening gallery"?
  • Longer for no particular benefit

MCE89

[edit]

Just a handful of suggestions from me:

  • ...making gestures like giving away possessions and telling people he loved them that, in retrospect, have been taken as him setting his affairs in order - I found this slightly tricky to parse on my first reading, can I suggest a slight restructuring of the sentence to: ...making gestures that have been taken in retrospect as him setting his affairs in order, such as giving away possessions and telling people he loved them
  • Yes, that's much better
  • Is the title unofficial in the sense that it wasn't chosen by McQueen himself, or unofficial in the sense that it wasn't used at all by his fashion house/Burton and was only unofficially given to the collection later on?
  • Great question; I wish I knew!
  • I wonder if In many ways, the collection encapsulated McQueen's entire career should be attributed (or rephrased), as the tone reads as a little odd to me in wikivoice
  • It reads fine to me with the context of the rest of the sentence?
  • Suggest adding a few words introducing Hieronymus Bosch and Stefan Lochner (i.e. "the Dutch painter" and "the German Renaissance painter")
  • Have added
  • ...the collection demonstrated McQueen's romantic side, in the grey chiffon gowns, but also felt his irreverent side was present, in the dramatic embellished cloaks - Up to you, but I'd probably drop the commas before "in the grey chiffon gowns" and "in the dramatic embellished cloaks"
  • Mmmmmmmmmmm okay.
  • I believe MOS:LQ suggests the full stop should go outside the quotation marks in described it as "a requiem."
  • I'm always mucking this up
  • Similarly, Juliana Luna Mora and Jess Berry also considered... - I think you could drop either "similarly" or "also"
  • Have tossed the also but left the similarly
  • Not a source review, but a few referencing nitpicks I noticed on my read through:
    • Is the bundled cite for ref 79 intentional? You have other places with four inline citations, so I'm not sure if there's a reason that these are the only ones bundled in this way
    • No I just got distracted and forgot to come back around for the others
    • You have a dab link for The Telegraph in ref 81
    • Fixed, I think
    • There are p/pp mismatches in refs 22, 27, 47, 49 and 58
    • These shooooooould all be tidy now, I think.

MCE89 (talk) 15:26, 28 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments MCE89, I've made the majority of suggested changes. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 08:57, 3 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@MCE89, it's been nearly two weeks. Any thoughts? ♠PMC♠ (talk) 04:58, 16 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Extremely sorry, this had completely slipped my mind. Nothing else from me, happy to support. MCE89 (talk) 07:11, 16 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Generalissima: Pass on source review

[edit]

I'll look over the sources. This seems to be a reliable and expansive set of sources, with the inclusion of many of the major sources you've used across previous McQueen FACs.

  • Any reason you wikilink authors but not editors?
  • No, an oversight. I think it's only Wilcox, the rest would be redlinks unless I missed someone just now
    • There was one more, but I fixed it.-G
  • Like half the books have OCLCs, the other half don't. Be consistent one way or another on that.
  • Added
  • Fox 2012's ISBN is hyphenated differently than the other ones.
  • All ISBNs should be consistent now
  • You are missing ISSNs for many of the magazines; be consistent one way or another on including them.
  • Looks like I only have one in the whole article, so I've removed it
  • You should capitalize Paris in the Givhan 2010 article
  • Oops
  • I think the two academic journal links in the Bibliography (Mora and Berry 2022, McWade 2021) should use the same date format.
  • Good catch, fixed
  • Cite number 84 would be a bit easier to parse using template:Sfnm
  • Yeah, but then I'd have to bibliographize those news articles, which would be inconsistent with the rest of the article. (I've also done these bundles in other FAs with no issue).
  • I don't think this is actually an issue, MoS speaking, but I note that a couple web links are missing archive links.
  • Yeah I sort of gave up trying to use IAbot since it seems to be down most of the time, eventually someone wanders over and runs it for me when it's working

@Premeditated Chaos: Apologies for the nitpicking; ping me when everything's ready. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 09:09, 8 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Generalissima, no apologies required, thanks for your time, fixes are made :)

Image review

Thanks Nikkimaria, I've added alt text for all images now. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 03:12, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Aoba47

[edit]

For clarification, I am looking at the following version of the article when conducting my review. I hope that my comments are helpful:

  • Apologies in advance as this is admittedly quite nitpick-y, but I have a question about the following sentence: It incorporated traditional tailoring and dressmaking techniques that McQueen had learned early in his career while also featuring the sophisticated digitally engineered prints that McQueen experimented with in the past few seasons. I wonder if the second McQueen is necessary and if it could be replaced with "he" to avoid repetition? This is a relatively minor note, so feel free to push back. This just caught my eye, so I thought that it was worth asking about here.
  • New rule: no apologies required in a FAC review :) Have tweaked
  • Do we know who did the "There is no more" voice over? When I look at the article, it reads like this information is unknown or was not publicly disclosed, but I wanted to double-check.
  • Sadly no, no one seems to really have reported on it one way or another.
  • I have a question about the following sentence: Some time after 3 am on 11 February, he committed suicide; his body was discovered later that morning. Would it be relevant to mention who discovered the body? I believe that it was his housekeeper. I was just curious as when I read this part, it did leaving me wondering who discovered his body, but I can also see this pulling too much focus away from the article's actual topic (the collection). Again, feel free to push back on this one. I just wanted to raise this question here since I thought about it while reading this part.
  • I think this is unnecessary detail for the collection article
  • That makes sense. It is not relevant to the collection, and it is more important to keep the part on McQueen's suicide to the important and relevant facts. Aoba47 (talk) 17:04, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is more of a clarification question, but was there any discussion about not completing and presenting this collection given McQueen's suicide? Did McQueen leave a note or make arrangements or anything about how he wanted this collection to be handled after his death? Again, this was just something that I was curious about, as this was a sensitive and serious issue. Apologies for all of the clarification questions as part of this review. I was just curious while reading the article and wanted to check with you about this.
  • He did leave a note, the full contents of which have never been publicly disclosed. What was released to the public doesn't concern the collection and I didn't see any information anywhere about posthumous directions. For what it's worth, and this is OR on my part, Burton was devoted to him. If she thought for a second he'd have wanted her to burn the collection I have no doubt she would have, so I have to imagine she either knew or thought he'd have wanted her to go ahead.
  • That does make sense to me. Thank you for the clarification and explanation. I was just curious as I know that there is a lot of disource around what to do with someone's work after their death. And I would trust that Burton would have known best in this situation. Aoba47 (talk) 17:04, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • For this part, McQueen intended to shift his focus to hand-crafting, I believe that it should be handcrafting without the hyphen. I am not seeing the hyphen used in British spellings of the word. Also, would a link for handcrafting be helpful here?
  • Swapped to "handicrafts" and linked
  • I have two comments about the following sentence: Katherine Knox considered the use of these images on the garment to be an "unsettling rumination on the afterlife" on McQueen's part. I believe that it should be Kristin Knox rather than Katherine Knox. I would also recommend adding some sort of descriptor for her so that unfamiliar readers can have additional context without having to navigate to the source and to click off the page.
  • Oop, I'm always doing this to poor Knox; added "author"
  • Did any of the models discuss their experience doing the runway show? I was just curious about this while reading the critical opinions and perspectives of the presentation, and I know that models have discussed their experiences with McQueen's shows before.
  • Not that I found, interestingly. I'd have thought Polina for sure.
  • I would have thought Polina would have made some sort of statement as well, but I do also understand why they would want to keep things more private given the circumstances. Aoba47 (talk) 17:04, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • I believe this was discussed above, but just as a friendly reminder, I would make sure to archive the online citations in the future. This is not a requirement for a FA, but I have had my own issues with link rot and death, and that is never a fun surprise or experience.
  • The bot seems to be working today so I've run it, which should fix the below-noted issues with refs 17, 82, and 87
  • I believe that Citation 2 should have an English translation for the title. I think that this is the only non-English source used in the article, unless I had overlooked anything.
* Added
  • Citation 17 is dead at least for me. The link leads to a HTTP 404 error message. I also get an error message for Citations 82 and 87.

Wonderful work as always! A majority of my comments are either nitpicks or clarification questions. I did not notice anything major or pressing. After everything has been addressed, I will read through the article a few more times to just make sure that I have not missed anything. I do not think that I will catch anything else, but I want to make sure that I do my due diligence as a reviewer. I hope that you are having a wonderful start to your week, and best of luck with your FAC! Hopefully, my review can help to revive some attention here. Aoba47 (talk) 02:41, 20 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

As always Aoba I'm tremendously grateful for your time and energy, happy to hear any other thoughts. Cheers! ♠PMC♠ (talk) 05:02, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your responses. I will read through the article again later today. Again, I do not imagine that I will find anything, but I just want to be absolutely certain. Despite the context, I really watching a YouTube video of the runway show. The last look in particular is exquisite. Aoba47 (talk) 17:04, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • I believe that Lady Gaga wore a gown from this collection for the 2010 MTV Video Music Awards (but please correct me if I am wrong). I did find a Harper's Bazaar article, which credits the dress as from the "Angels and Demons" collection. Gaga also discusses this dress in this interview for Vogue (at the 6:00 mark) and says that it is from McQueen's last collection. I am not sure if the interview is particularly useful for this article, but I wanted to share that with you just in case.
Interestingly, I think Harper's has it wrong there. The dress wasn't one of the 16 runway pieces (I went to grab the look number), it looks like a custom piece made in the style of the collection. I've added it with some notes though because it is interesting! ♠PMC♠ (talk) 02:32, 23 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for looking into this and for addressing this for me. That does make sense. When I did further research on this, most of the coverage references this dress in vaguer terms, describing it just as a custom McQueen rather than pinning it down to a specific collection, so Harper's is most likely incorrect in this situation. I watched the runway show on YouTube and this dress is not a part of the presentation (and this dress is quite noticeable so it would be hard to miss). I would recommend archiving the online sources for this part, but it is not a priority. Aoba47 (talk) 13:49, 23 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This is my last comment. Thank you for your patience. Everything else in the article looks good to me. Let me know when this has been addressed, and I will be more than happy to support the FAC. Aoba47 (talk) 00:06, 22 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks again! ♠PMC♠ (talk) 02:32, 23 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you again for your patience with my review. I had a really good time reading through this article and learning about the collection, even with the heavy subject matter. Weirdly enough, my favorite piece may be the Mary evening gown from the retail collection, but I like how the rendering goes with the gown's silhouette. But anyway, I support this article for promotion based on the prose. Best of luck with the FAC! Aoba47 (talk) 13:49, 23 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

"Heroes" (David Bowie song)

[edit]
Nominator(s): – zmbro (talk) (cont) 20:10, 24 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about... David Bowie's best song and the one he will be forever remembered for (it's hard not to agree with that). Having brought it to GA four years ago, I've done some expanding since then, including with scholarly articles that provided great analysis. As always, I'm looking forward to everyone's comments and concerns. Thanks. – zmbro (talk) (cont) 20:10, 24 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Media review - pass

[edit]

Hey there Zmbro! Considering you left comments on the List of songs recorded by My Chemical Romance article, I figured I'd help you bring this to FAC, I'll review the media files. The article contains the following:

All images are placed appropriately in the article, audio file is tagged with a detailed non-free use rationale, no overall conflicts regarding the images, this is a Support from me, great work! :) Gavetheman555 (talk) 00:21, 25 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks so much Gave! Appreciate it. – zmbro (talk) (cont) 15:33, 25 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Camilasdandelions

[edit]

Hi! I have referred to one of your featured articles, Born in the U.S.A., which made me highly impressed by its quality. Now I'm shocked again to see this article's excellent quality. Here's my review:

Lead
  • "Released in edited form by RCA Records on 23 September 1977 as the album's lead single" -- add comma between "1977" and "as"
  • Done
  • Unlink music video and lead single. They're regarded as an overlink among multiple editors these days
  • Done
  • "Bowie heavily promoted" -- "heavily" seems unnecessary for lead
  • Done. Heavily was there to juxtapose the fact that he didn't do ANY promotion for his then-previous album Low, whereas he went all out for "Heroes".
  • "initial reviews for the song were mostly positive" -- this should be go like "the song received mostly positive initial reviews" since you used participial construction here
  • Yep, fixed. I realized that was wrong as I was fixing the above thing, lol.
  • "also released German and French-language versions" -> "also released German- and French-language versions"
  • Fixed
  • "the song's reputation has grown substantially and is considered by many to be one of Bowie's finest songs" -> "the song's reputation has grown substantially; it is now widely considered one of Bowie's finest songs"
  • Done
Backing track
  • "builds up and gets more" -> "buil[t] up and g[ot] more"
  • Done
Vocals
  • "and for a time was rumoured it would remain an instrumental." -> "and for a time, it was rumoured that the track would remain an instrumental."
  • Done
  • "through a noise gate, a volume controlling device that would turn them on as" -> "through a noise gate, which activated them as"
  • Done
  • "one of Bowie's mainstays. An engineer at Mountain, David Richards, also became one of his regulars." -> "one of Bowie's mainstays, where he frequently collaborated with resident engineer David Richards."
Music
  • Remove hyphen on "early-1970s"
  • Done
  • "A minor, swapping" -> "A minor, thereby swapping"
  • Done
  • "Visconti created the song's sondscapes" -- "soundscapes"?
  • Fixed. Writing quickly there's bound to be at least one typo.
Analysis
  • "inexplicably" -> "inextricably"
  • Done
Filmed appearances
  • "This particular version, released as a 7" picture disc on 22 September 2017, has an alternative backing track that was recorded with Bolan playing lead guitar and the T. Rex line up of Dino Dines on keyboards, and the rhythm section of Herbie Flowers on bass and Tony Newman on drums, both of whom had played with Bowie on his 1974 album Diamond Dogs and its accompanying tour." -- This is too long
Single and other releases
  • "weeks, and failing" -- Remove comma here
  • Done
Retrospective appraisal
  • "Allison Rapp found that over time, the track become" -- "became" seems proper
  • Fixed, typo
  • "with an uplifting-sporting-montage-soundtrack ubiquity" / "turns six minutes of "pulsing electronic noise" -- Hypens are unnecessary here, with the first one being: "uplifting sporting-montage-soundtrack"
  • Fixed
Accolades
  • Included by Time in their 2011 list of the "All-Time 100 Songs", Pitchfork also included the song in The Pitchfork 500, -- Grammar error
  • Fixed; clear comma splice
Later chart success
  • "and was also streamed on Spotify more than any other Bowie song." -> "and became his most-streamed track on Spotify."
  • Done, also changed "around the world" to "worldwide"
Usage in media
  • "cars and softwares, to HBO Latin American programming" -> "cars and software, to HBO Latin America programming"
  • Done
  • "Its usage came from one of the show's actors" -- What "Its" refers to?
  • Clarified

Source review - pass

[edit]

Here'll be a source review from me!

This table lists 12 random passages from throughout the article (5.1% of 236 total passages). These passages contain 16 inline citations (4.9% of 326 in the article). Generated with the Veracity user script. RedShellMomentum 05:10, 14 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@Zmbro: Source review is all good. I've also recently opened up a FAC for "Dick in a Box", you may leave comments there if you wish (note that I am assuming good faith with some of these sources due to me not being able to view them). RedShellMomentum 05:28, 14 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Reference # Letter Source Archive Status Notes
Recording for the album took place entirely in West Berlin between July and August 1977 at Hansa Studio 2, a former concert hall converted into a recording studio that had been used by Gestapo officers as a ballroom during World War II and was located about 500 yards from the Berlin Wall. The song was co-produced by Bowie and Tony Visconti, with contributions from Eno.
1 "Heroes"_(David_Bowie_song)?oldid=1362626939#cite_ref-FOOTNOTESeabrook2008159–161_2-1 b Seabrook 2008, pp. 159–161. ✅
7 "Heroes"_(David_Bowie_song)?oldid=1362626939#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEPegg2016390–391_8-0 a Pegg 2016, pp. 390–391. ✅
8 "Heroes"_(David_Bowie_song)?oldid=1362626939#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEBuckley2005277–280_9-0 a Buckley 2005, pp. 277–280. ✅
Richard Buskin of Sound on Sound described the song as a "highly experimental piece of art rock".
9 "Heroes"_(David_Bowie_song)?oldid=1362626939#cite_ref-Buskin_SoS_10-6 g soundonsound.com web.archive.org ✅
The fourth verse is a reiteration of the first, albeit Bowie sings an octave higher and in a near-scream. In the fifth and final verse, the narrator recalls standing and kissing by the Wall while guards fired bullets above their heads. Perone states that this moment captures the sense that the narrator's love can "overcome anything" and, as dolphins can freely swim as they wish, the proclamation that "we can be heroes" "gets well beyond anything the listener might have anticipated at the start of the piece".
18 "Heroes"_(David_Bowie_song)?oldid=1362626939#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEPerone200767–68_20-3 d Perone 2007, pp. 67–68. ✅
Since its release, "'Heroes'" has been the subject of scholarly analysis.
27 "Heroes"_(David_Bowie_song)?oldid=1362626939#cite_ref-UCRcovers_31-0 a ultimateclassicrock.com web.archive.org ✅
A 12" promotional single, containing both the single and album versions, was released in the US by RCA (as JD-11151) the same year.
35 "Heroes"_(David_Bowie_song)?oldid=1362626939#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEPegg2016781_42-0 a Pegg 2016, p. 781. ✅
"Heroes"_(David_Bowie_song)?oldid=1362626939#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEKamp198575_43-0 36 Kamp 1985, p. 75. ✅
The full album track was remastered with its parent album for inclusion on the 2017 box set A New Career in a New Town (1977–1982). The single edit was included on Re:Call 3, part of that box set, while the German single, French single, English-German full-length, and English-French full-length versions were included on an EP in the same set.
"Heroes"_(David_Bowie_song)?oldid=1362626939#cite_ref-64 57 davidbowie.com web.archive.org ✅
In Consequence of Sound, Lior Phillips stated that the track "expertly captures the hopeless reality that nothing lasts and that we all must die — and also the inherent beauty in the fact that we all live and love in our time despite that fact".
73 "Heroes"_(David_Bowie_song)?oldid=1362626939#cite_ref-CoS_80-0 a consequence.net web.archive.org ✅
Time included it in their 2011 list of the "All-Time 100 Songs",
"Heroes"_(David_Bowie_song)?oldid=1362626939#cite_ref-102 93 entertainment.time.com web.archive.org ✅
"'Héros'" also peaked at number 37 in France in 2015.
"Heroes"_(David_Bowie_song)?oldid=1362626939#cite_ref-124 115 lescharts.com web.archive.org ✅
and a performance two days later at the BBC Radio Theatre, which went unreleased until the Brilliant Adventure (1992–2001) box set in 2021.
"Heroes"_(David_Bowie_song)?oldid=1362626939#cite_ref-135 126 davidbowie.com web.archive.org ✅
A year later, Peter Gabriel released a stripped-down version for his covers album Scratch My Back (2010).
6 "Heroes"_(David_Bowie_song)?oldid=1362626939#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEPegg2016109–113_7-35 aj Pegg 2016, pp. 109–113. ✅
According to Chris O'Leary and Benoît Clerc:
5 "Heroes"_(David_Bowie_song)?oldid=1362626939#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEO%27Leary2019chap._2_6-25 z O'Leary 2019, chap. 2. ✅
"Heroes"_(David_Bowie_song)?oldid=1362626939#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEClerc2021278–279_166-0 157 Clerc 2021, pp. 278–279. ✅

Graham Beards

[edit]

I think the prose can be generally improved. Here are some examples:

  • "a symbol and metaphor for personal struggles and Bowie's recovery from addiction" What is the difference between a symbol and a metaphor here?
  • "His biographers pan the single edit for diminishing the song's power" It is not made clear what the single edit is.
  • "the drum sound is mostly atmospheric to the room." This doesn't make much sense
  • "as a placement for a cowbell" a placement?
  • "Similar to Low, Bowie neglected to write lyrics until all but he and Visconti had departed." I don't think "neglect" is the right verb.
  • "Additionally, he improvised lyrics while standing at the microphone after witnessing Pop use the same method" How about simply "seeing"?
  • "Visconti devised a "multi-latch" system that would utilise the ambience of Hansa to full effect" How about "use".
  • "'Heroes'" utilises a standard 4 4 time signature and a simple D–G chord progression." Same here
  • Here "Bowie's witnessing of Visconti and Maass kissing near the Berlin Wall." and "Bowie witnessing a kiss between Visconti and singer Antonia Maass" It seems the writer cannot make up their mind if "withessing" is a participle or a gerund.
  • This, "Feldner states that the song can be viewed as a "mnemonic product", a concept that "gain[s] [its] reality only by being used, interpreted and reproduced or changed," serving as a "kind of interface or switchboard between individual and collective memory"." - is too pretentious and tantamount to gibberish.

Maybe more later. Graham Beards (talk) 14:34, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

FM

[edit]

Thuggee

[edit]
Nominator(s): Joko2468 (talk) 10:54, 23 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a phenomenon of highway robbers in early British colonial India that were suppressed by a British campaign in the 1830s. For well over a century they were thought to constitute a religious sect that sacrificed travellers to their Goddess (popularly Kali). The Thugs (from which we get the word) subsequently took on a life of their own in literature, and later film, perhaps most famously in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. Historians have since revised this colonial-era portrayal, most notably in the 1990s and 2000s, with there being a general consensus among contemporary historians against the notion of thuggee as a religious cult.

I have been working on this article and in the broader topic area on and off for the past six months. The article recently passed a rigorous GA review by Amir Ghandi, who recommended that I nominate it at FAC. The historiography is a little muddled and tertiary material that could repair this lacking, so I've left some brief notes in the talk page explaining the judgements I made. Thank you for your time and consideration. Joko2468 (talk) 10:54, 23 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Avoid sandwiching text between images
To amend this, I further fleshed out that paragraph with another source.
Unfortunately there are a few instances of this, given the number of images used. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:27, 25 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies but I'm not seeing this in my version, by "sandwiching" do you mean when two left-right illustrations overlap? With the Appearance tab hidden in Vector 2022, there's overlap between File:The Thug School of Industry, Jubbulpore.jpg and File:Hector Leveillé - Inde - 022- Groupe de Thugs.tif, and then between File:Gunga Din (1938 poster).jpg and File:Temple of doom fans.jpg. I've trimmed down the caption for the School of Industry and removed the Temple of Doom image.
I've moved two potential cases of MOS:SANDWICH (depending on a reader's imgsize settings) to multiple images templates.
  • How does the gallery align with WP:IG?
I appreciate that it's close to "Images of [insert article title]", I've reworked this section to just include Paton's watercolours, which have been covered in detail by Wagner (2012).
  • File:Map_of_india_1827.jpg: per the UK tag, "If you wish to rely on it, please specify in the image description the research you have carried out to find who the author was". Same for all other images using this tag.
Done. For your convenience, the illustrations that have/ had this tag are: File:The Thugs Worshipping Kalee (1850, p. 98) - Copy.jpg, File:Thuggee strangling.jpg, File:Thuggee approver denounces.jpg (tag removed), File:Thugs with their loot.jpg, File:Map of india 1827.jpg, File:India map thuggee.png, and File:Thuggee gangs map.png.
I'm confused - if the maps are attributed to a specific author, why are they tagged as unknown-author? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:27, 25 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Changed to PD-old, I thought that with the additions being made after Aaron Arrowsmith's death it would legally qualify as a derivative work by an anonymous author.
  • File:Thuggee_approver_denounces.jpg: source link is dead
Updated with a higher resolution image from Alamy.
  • File:The_Thugs_of_India_-_Halt_at_the_Shrine_of_Ganesh,_by_August_Schoefft,_ca.1841.jpg: when and where was this first published? Ditto File:Jubbulpore_school_of_industry.jpg, File:Hector_Leveillé_-_Inde_-_022-_Groupe_de_Thugs.tif, File:Thuggee_alleged_burial_site.png
Done for (1) and (3), I removed File:Jubbulpore_school_of_industry.jpg (File:Thuggee_alleged_burial_site.png also already removed).
The first of these needs a US tag.
I've added PD-Art-two-auto, does this work? I'm a little confused here, for a painting does featuring in an exhibition count as being published? File:Ilja Jefimowitsch Repin - Reply of the Zaporozhian Cossacks - Yorck.jpg is a featured image and includes no information on where it was published.
Typically no - this document outlines the legal definition of publication for US law
Okay thank you, I think I've resolved this now.
  • File:Image_taken_from_page_298_of_'(Confessions_of_a_Thug_..._Second_edition.)'_(11055428646).jpg: is a more specific tag available?
Done. The image title is inaccurate, this is the third edition.
  • What is the benefit of File:Temple_of_doom_fans.jpg?
Temple of Doom is generally prominently mentioned by historians of thuggee, so I wanted an illustration of Mola Ram to better communicate this depiction to the reader and there aren't any in the public domain. Would File:MolaRam.jpg be okay for a fair use rationale? I didn't think so since the illustration of cosplayers fulfils this purpose.
I don't think the cosplayer image does fulfill that purpose. If the historian references are mentions a fair-use image is unlikely to be justified - is that the extent of it? Or has there been more in-depth commentary on a particular image or character? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:27, 25 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I've removed it.

Also noting that the article generally would benefit from a MOS sweep. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:35, 24 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks so much for your review @Nikkimaria, I think I've addressed all your comments. I just have a question regarding fair use and the Mola Ram image. Joko2468 (talk) 13:49, 24 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for responding @Nikkimaria, I just have questions about the sandwiched text and the U.S. tag for the painting. Joko2468 (talk) 06:53, 25 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies @Nikkimaria but has this passed the image review? As I understand it, the outstanding issues are the U.S. tag for File:The Thugs of India - Halt at the Shrine of Ganesh, by August Schoefft, ca.1841.jpg and sandwiched text-- hopefully I've resolved both of these. Thanks. Joko2468 (talk) 08:08, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, good enough. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:56, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Jon698

[edit]
In some style guides (such as the Canadian government) if a foreign word is used frequently it should only be italicised on the first occurrence. However, thuggee is present in the OED so I don't think it's a foreign word anymore-- I've removed the italics.
  • 2. "Historians' reinterpretations" -> More of a nitpick, but I would use the phrasing "Historical reinterpretations", but you can keep it as is if you want
I think "Historians' reinterpretations" better reflects the nature of the historiography but if another reviewer finds this jarring then I'll certainly change it.
I forgot this appeared in the first paragraph as well, "historical reinterpretations" is much better there, thanks.
  • 3. "that was exacerbated by the expansion of British rule" -> Remove wikilink as you already linked to Company rule in India earlier in the lede
Done.
  • 4. "to refer to highway robbers" -> wikilink Highwayman
Done.
  • 5. "During his travels across India in the 7th century, the Chinese monk Hsüen Tsang was attacked by pirates on the Ganges and narrowly escaped being sacrificed to Durga." -> "The Chinese monk Hsüen Tsang was attacked by pirates on the Ganges and narrowly escaped being sacrificed to Durga during his travels across India in the 7th century." so that his first mention is his name rather than a pronoun
Adopted.
  • 6. "Following his travels across India in 1666–1667, Jean de Thévenot wrote in 1684 of the "cunningest robbers in the world"" -> "Following Jean de Thévenot's travels across India in 1666–1667, he wrote in 1684 of the "cunningest robbers in the world"" same as above
Adopted.
  • 7. "specifying the punishment to be meted out to stranglers" -> I would use "against" rather than "to be meted out to" for the benefit of readers
I think this might be a case of WP:CLOP for Dash (2005), I've rephrased this to "setting out a punishment for stranglers".
  • 8. "John Fryer wrote of his experience in 1675 witnessing the execution of fifteen members of a bandit gang near Surat that had strangled and robbed passing travellers using a cotton bowstring." -> Did John Fryer write about this in 1675 or did he witness the execution in 1675?
The latter, I've amended this to: "John Fryer wrote of his experience witnessing the execution of fifteen members of a bandit gang in 1675, near Surat, that..." It's a little finicky, please let me know if you think it can be improved further.
  • 9. "After Law's inquiries proved unsuccessful, and following the discovery of four strangled native soldiers in July, the magistrates of the neighbouring Aligarh and Farrukhabad districts were brought in to assist." -> Could this be reordered to "The magistrates of the neighbouring Aligarh and Farrukhabad districts were brought in to assist after Law's inquiries proved unsuccessful, and following the discovery of four strangled native soldiers in July." so that the sentence runs more naturally?
Adopted.
Done, and I've replaced these with the special character (₨) throughout the article.
  • 11. "in the central Doab" -> Wikilink Doab
Done.
  • 12. "Later that year, the Agent at Mahidpur Captain William Borthwick arrested 74 Thugs for the murder of five travellers" -> This is the start of a new paragraph and new section so there is no context for what year this is suppose to be. Change to "In (year), the agent"
Done.
  • 13. "In an October 1829 letter, the Government explained" -> Which government? There are a lot in India at this time
Annoyingly the sources just use "Government", but this evidently refers to the Governor-General of the Bengal Presidency. There's only one government covered in the article, would it be acceptable to just define this at its first instance? I have a source that identifies the first mention as the "Supreme Government in Calcutta", which I think I can paraphrase as "the central government in Bengal". Interested to hear your thoughts.
The first is acceptable Jon698 (talk) 05:44, 26 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • 14. "The letter made an impression on the Government" -> Same as above
  • 15. "Swinton was the prime instigator within the Government" -> Same as above
  • 16. "From 1830 onwards, the Government" -> Same as above
  • 17. "Backed by an official report, the Government" -> Same as above
  • 18. "groundbreaking Act XXX of 1836" -> Remove "groundbreaking" as flowerily and editorial language
Done.
  • 19. "(the Company's supreme court)" -> Change to "(the East India Company's supreme court)" including the wikilink while removing the wikilink in "in the East India Company archives"
Done.
Done.
  • 21. "was probably related to East India Company policy" -> Remove wikilink and you can probably change it to "was probably related to Company policy"
Done.
Done.
  • 23. "Dash estimates that as many as three thousand people" -> "Dash estimates that as many as 3,000 people"
Done.
  • 24. "Thugs would also frequently murder their victims with swords, knives, or poison, whereafter their bodies would be thrown into a well or a nullah, or buried in a hole dug with pickaxes." -> "Thugs also frequently murdered their victims with swords, knives, or poison, whereafter their bodies would be thrown into a well or a nullah, or buried in a hole dug with pickaxes."
Done.
  • 25. "Islamic jurisprudence prevalent in Mughal India" -> Remove wikilink
Done.
  • 26. There are four wikilinks to Feringheea. Remove the three that come after Feringheea's first mention in the body
I've removed the middle two. However, I'd like to keep the one in the In popular culture section since I think readers are more likely to skip through to this. MOS:DUPLINK states that an article can be linked at most once every major section.
  • 27. "Dr. Richard C. Sherwood" -> Remove Dr.
Done. I always thought that was misleading in the sources, he was a surgeon.
  • 28. "Dacoity was added to Sleeman's responsibilities in 1838 as thuggee activity had been effectively suppressed" -> Remove wikilink as it was linked to earlier
Done.
  • 29. "Wagner notes that ordinary dacoits" -> Remove wikilink as above
Done.
Done.
  • 31. "Thugs commonly spared the children of their victims, and a large number of them were consequently adopted." -> I think subsequently would work better than consequently
Adopted.
  • 32. "Delhi under the protection of the Mughal emperor" -> Remove wikilink
Done.
  • 33. "Some Muslim approvers disowned Bhavani upon turning King's evidence" + "Thugs were motivated to become approvers" -> Remove wikilink to Turn state's evidence as it was already linked to earlier
Done.
  • 34. "In 1920, James L. Sleeman (William Henry Sleeman's grandson)" -> "In 1920, Sleeman's grandson James L. Sleeman"
Done.
  • 35. "Philip Meadows Taylor's 1839 novel Confessions of a Thug was largely based on Sleeman's" -> "Taylor's 1839 novel Confessions of a Thug was largely based on Sleeman's" with no wikilinks
Mostly done, I've kept the link to Confessions of a Thug. I think readers would expect one here and they'd otherwise have to scroll up 5,000 words.
  • 36. "The 1844–1845 serial novel Le Juif errant (The Wandering Jew)" -> Chang to direct link "The 1844–1845 serial novel The Wandering Jew"
Done-- I think you're saying to ditch the foreign-language titles? In which case, I changed it at its earlier instance as well.
  • 37. "In his 1880 novel La maison à vapeur (The Steam House)" -> Change to direct link "In his 1880 novel The Steam House"
Done.
  • 38. "I misteri della jungla nera (The Mystery of the Black Jungle; 1895) follows a Bengali hunter battling the Thugs to rescue his love interest. Le due tigri (The Two Tigers; 1904) is set against the backdrop of the Indian Rebellion of 1857." -> Direct links as above
Done.
  • 39. "The 1939 film Gunga Din marks the first portrayal of thuggee in film" -> Replace "marks" with "was"
Done.

Comments from Metalicat

[edit]

Indian colonial history is well outside my area. Nikkimaria has the image licensing in hand and Jon698 is working through the prose, so I've tried not to duplicate either.

Prose

  • Possible precolonial accounts: ...from Delhi to Bengal in 1290, however the chronicle makes no mention of what they were arrested for is a comma splice; "however" can't join two clauses with only a comma. A semicolon or full stop before "however" fixes it.
Added semicolon.
  • 1810s and 1820s: Superintendent John Shakespeare addressed that "much scepticism still prevails"; "addressed that" isn't idiomatic, so noted that or remarked that.
Changed to "remarked".
  • Centralised campaign: Sleeman played different thuggee factions off of one another wants off against one another; and the murder of impoverished parents to attain their children for sale wants obtain.
Done.
  • Religious beliefs: Captain James Paton specifically honed in on should be homed in on; and and therein maintained their belief in monotheism reads as thereby.
Done.
  • In popular culture: centres around a band of Thugs, centres on.
Changed to "revolves around" for more diversity.
  • Contractions (MOS:CONTRACTIONS), all in article voice or footnotes: doesn't reject, didn't always spare, weren't religious, wasn't exclusive, and in a footnote they didn't believe that Thugs existed. All want expanding.
Done. "not because they did not" doesn't read terribly well to me, highlighting so I can return to this.

Manual of Style and links

  • Lead: [[British India (disambiguation)|British colonial era]] points at a disambiguation page. As Company rule in India is linked two sentences down, simplest is to drop the link: During the British colonial era. (Separate from the duplicate link Jon698 raised.)
Done
  • Aftermath: [[Le Juif errant]] looks like a loose or disambiguation target; the Literature section links the same novel as [[The Wandering Jew (Sue novel)|Le Juif errant]]. Worth matching them.
Done.
  • Notable groups (Soosea): based in Rajasthan and Malwa, operating in Gujarat, Khandesh and in Rajasthan; Rajasthan is linked twice and the sentence reads as "based in Rajasthan ... and in Rajasthan". Worth a tidy.
Cleaned up, though I'm unsure how to amend the duplication of Rajasthan. I'll return to this if I work it out.
  • The 931-murders approver is [[Buhram Jemadar]] in the infobox note but [[Thug Behram|Buhram]] in Place in society; same man, two targets, so standardise.
Maintained "Thug Behram" as the link throughout.
  • Notable groups: on the British-Maratha border wants an en dash, British–Maratha border (MOS:DASH, separate entities).
Done.
  • the groundbreaking Act XXX of 1836 and Sleeman's seminal 1836 book Ramaseeana: are "groundbreaking" and "seminal" carried by a source, or the article's own assessment? If the latter, they read as editorial.
  • groundbreaking: "Act XXX of 1836 was passed.29 This act was in many ways groundbreaking..." (Wagner, 2007: p.214) and "Act XXX of 1836 had many novel features..." (Singha, 1993: p.84). I think this is a statement of fact? Removed.
  • seminal: Wagner (2004: p.953) describes Sleeman's book as "the canon of the colonial discourse on thuggee". Is there a better way to summarise its level of influence?


It's clearly well-structured and interesting, and most of the above is mechanical. Metalicat (talk) 15:47, 24 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking the time to do this @Metalicat, I think I've addressed your comments. Please let me know if you have any further thoughts on the issues raised under MOS:CONTRACTIONS, Soosea, and WP:EDITORIAL. Joko2468 (talk) 17:17, 24 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Happy to. The removal settles "groundbreaking", so just the remaining three.
  • MOS:CONTRACTIONS footnote. The awkwardness is the double negative, not the expansion. not because they did not believe that Thugs existed reads more cleanly as not because they doubted that Thugs existed: one negative, same sense.
  • Soosea. The duplicate link is gone, so this is just the word "Rajasthan" appearing in both the "based in" and "operating in" lists. That's faithful to Van Woerkens (p. 314), who has them living in Rajasthan and Malwa and working mainly in Gujarat, Khandesh, and Rajasthan, so I'd keep both and just signal the repeat is deliberate: operating in Gujarat, Khandesh, and Rajasthan to operating in Gujarat, Khandesh, and Rajasthan itself.
  • WP:EDITORIAL ("seminal"). In that sentence the adjective isn't doing any work, so the simplest fix is to drop it: Sleeman's 1836 book Ramaseeana. If you want to register the book's influence, do it by attribution rather than an adjective in article voice. Wagner uses the phrase at exactly this point, right after Feringheea's denial, so it sits naturally here: published in Sleeman's 1836 book Ramaseeana, which Wagner describes as "the canon of the colonial discourse on thuggee" (Wagner 2004, p. 953). Metalicat (talk) 21:01, 24 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent, thank you so much @Metalicat, I've adopted all three improvements. Joko2468 (talk) 21:59, 24 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Support on prose and MoS. I've done a non-specialist read for prose, Manual of Style, links and internal consistency. Metalicat (talk) 22:30, 24 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

[edit]

I reviewed this article for GA and at the time, I mostly focused on prose. Only 20 citations were reviewed and except for one instance of WIKIPEDIA:SYNTH, I spotted no problems. However, since two other editors have taken up the prose and layout review, I want to perform a comprehensive spotchecking of the whole article. If its alright with everyone, I'll be doing spotchchecks for 40 random passages throughout the article. Amir Ghandi (talk) 11:43, 29 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Wagner (2007) can be accessed online here. The bulleted template doesn't seem to have translated well into Veracity:
  • 43 is actually cited to Wagner (2004: pp.932, 935, 958) -- the link displayed by Veracity is the cited primary source.
  • 39: Irfan (1963) is the source cited by Wagner.
  • 75: Sharma (2001) was just used for the forename.
Joko2468 (talk) 12:42, 29 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, I see. I'll replace them with the correct ones and I'll begin to look through the sources I have access to. Amir Ghandi (talk) 13:48, 29 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Spotcheck
[edit]

This table lists 40 random passages from throughout the article (12.1% of 331 total passages). These passages contain 63 inline citations (13.4% of 471 in the article). Generated with the Veracity user script. Amir Ghandi (talk) 11:45, 29 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

  • Agreed on 20b, I've removed it. While all the material should be supported, I'm going to do a sweep of the article for tenuous supporting citations-- it's possible that I introduced a couple of these when cross referencing the books for NPOV.
    • I've gone through and removed 35 unnecessary citations across the History and Culture and beliefs sections (a couple were a bit tenuous, still to do Notable groups) and amended a few passages. As it pertains to the spot check, just refs 222 and 192b were removed. Pinging Amir Ghandi.
    • Finished this sweep, removing a further 7 unnecessary citations in the Notable groups section. This included ref 297, which was highlighted in the spot check.
  • 75: p. 185 is used to establish Shakespeare's first initial (J. Shakespeare), in order to corroborate the forename from Sharma (2001).
  • 87: Lloyd (2006: p.10) is used to clarify "in Bengal" (the Supreme Government in Calcutta), which came up in Jon698's comments above (Ctrl + F for "Which government?").
  • 129: I've moved "launching a literary tradition" to the following sentence, which is cited to the next page in Wagner (2007).
  • 132: Act XXX of 1836 and Act XXIV of 1843 — which extended the provisions of the Thuggee Act to ‘professional dacoits’ — afforded a security net... (Singha, 1998: p.216). Would "while" be better than "with" here? I don't think I appreciated how 'with' could be interpreted as synthesis.
Certainly an 'and' or 'with' sounds better here.
  • I'm glad 145b; 146; 147a came up, that sentence was approved by an admin during the GA review on Sleeman (Ctrl + F for "problems with Academia letters") but it was concerning me a little. (Humes (2010) was used for "sustained and diverse scholarly criticism"). I amended the passage and cited it to just Dash (2005). I've removed Wagner (2012) for now, highlighting so I can come back to this.
Thank you for the swift response. I've marked these all resolved, and will move on with the spotchecking. Amir Ghandi (talk) 02:32, 1 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, only two more points @Joko2468:, then we're good to pass this article for spotchecks and source review. Amir Ghandi (talk) 04:22, 1 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for going through all this @Amir Ghandi, I think I've amended these issues (ref 297 is addressed above). Joko2468 (talk) 10:12, 1 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I now consider the Spotchcecking and the source review of the article passed, and after reviewing the article itself through GA nomination, I have enough confidence to give my support for its promotion to FA status. Best wishes, @Joko2468:. Amir Ghandi (talk) 12:29, 1 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • 119c: I replaced Wagner (2007) with p. 15 of Rawat & Mukherjee (2025)-- Wagner only mentions the JSI in passing so I went with Dash (2005) and Rawat & Mukherjee for the date.
  • 206a: However the thuggee Act still provided a useful short-cut in tackling other crimes which seemed to be the preserve of organized gangs. It was used to deal with the traffic in children... Whether one species of crime, that of poisoning travellers to rob them, should be prosecuted under the thuggee Act continued to provoke debate... But in the course of the pacification drives engaged in by the Thuggee and Dacoity Department in the border areas of Awadh the Act was applied to prosecute the Pasis, armed watchmen, who were believed to be a class of 'poisoners by profession'... Such controversies about the applications of the thuggee Act made it necessary to spell out what thuggee was through Act II of 1848. The definition admitted the possibility that poisoning could be a species of thuggee even if it did not always lead to death... (Singha 1993, pp. 142–143). I've moved "non-lethally" over to the next sentence where it's more appropriate.
Reference # Letter Source Archive Status Notes
This was not the only meaning of the term, with its literal interpretation not necessarily connoting an association with violence.
21 b Wagner 2007, p. 30. "This was not the only meaning of the term since its literal interpretation merely implied a cheat or a swindler without the necessary association of violence" Good
20 b Dash 2005, p. 298. Maybe this passage (?): "It cannot be assumed that these accounts refer to the same murderous stranglers who used the name in later times" Good I question the use of Dash 2005 here. The sentence seems to be perfectly well-supported by Wagner 2007. Why is Dash used here?
On another occasion, Xuanzang was told while passing a temple on the way to Pataliputra that no foreigner who entered it ever came out again.
26 b Van Woerkens 2002, p. 109. Good
Around 1680, an Indian news-writer for the Waqa'i Ajmer referred to "highway robbers known in Hindi as thags" in Rajputana.
39 Wagner 2007, p. 237 ia601400.us.archive.org Good
At the trial in Mainpuri in November, he demonstrated for the court how the gang strangled their victims, though the trial descended into a farce as Hussain repeatedly revised his testimony regarding the extent of his involvement with the gang.
56 Wagner 2007, pp. 52–54. Good
He ultimately claimed to have been on five expeditions, witnessing 95 murders. However, the court rejected his testimony due to repeated perjury and it was later deemed inadmissible to try him for the murders he had confessed to participating in.
58 Wagner 2007, pp. 54, 56. Supported by "in the end he admitted to having been on five expeditions with the thugs and witnessed 95 murders altogether" in p. 54 and and second part by "The deposition of the prisoner upon oath when examined as a witness before the Court of Circuit not being admissible for his own conviction, and there not appearing to be any proof of the prisoner’s guilt except his own confession; the Court under the discretion given by the Futwa of their Law officer, do not judge it proper to sentence the prisoner Gholam Hossain to any specific punishment" in p. 56 Good
In his yearly report for 1815, Superintendent John Shakespeare remarked that "much scepticism still prevails regarding the existence of any distinct class of people who are designated T'hegs [sic]", though he himself held no doubt that there were "regular societies" of Thugs, who he characterised as robbers.
75 Wagner 2007, pp. 185–186 Supported by "In his yearly report for 1815, Shakespeare began his discussion of thuggee stating that: ‘Much scepticism still prevails regarding the existence of any distinct class of people who are designated T’hegs.’17 Accordingly, the situation was such that in an official report, the scepticism of the ‘declaimers’ had to be addressed, and while Shakespeare admitted that nobody had ever been convicted, he had no doubts as to the existence of ‘regular societies’ of thugs. Shakespeare was perfectly aware of the broader usage of the word in describing merely a ‘knave’ or a ‘cheat’ but, he argued, in the Western Provinces, ‘thug’ was generally used to describe robbers who murdered travellers" in Page 186. Good

What does p. 185 help support in this sentence? All of the information seems to come from page 186 besides the name which is establisshed by Sharma

Resolved
Up until this point, efforts against thuggee had been led by local authorities. The case marked the first major intervention by the central government in Bengal, which sought both to secure convictions and to establish a judicial argument that treated Thugs in the same manner as pirates whereby they could be punished by whoever captured them.
85 Wagner 2007, pp. 199–200. Good
87 Lloyd 2006, p. 10. Good

Does not contribute anything to the citation of the sentence.

Resolved
In October, Sleeman contributed an anonymous letter to the Calcutta Literary Gazette entitled 'Thugs' that recounted the execution of 11 Thugs and asserted that Thugs were fanatical worshippers of a tutelary goddess under the names "Davey, Kalee, Doorga, and Bhowanee".
94 a Wagner 2007, pp. 205–206. Good
In 1832 and 1833 officials were despatched to the Doab and Rajputana respectively to oversee anti-thuggee operations there.
111 a Wagner 2007, p. 212. Good
In 1834, Smith began to call for a central agency for the suppression of thuggee that would station officials in more territories.
111 b Wagner 2007, p. 212. Good
Thuggee thereafter became a Victorian sensation, with Queen Victoria herself requesting the pre-publication proofs of Taylor's book, launching a literary tradition.
128 a Perris 2025, p. 208. Supported by: "the novel became a literary sensation of such prominence that not only did its avid readership include Queen Victoria, but, as Taylor recalls in his autobiography, the monarch even requested early sight of the proofs before publication" Good
129 Wagner 2007, p. 1. It is a bit dubious that how the passage at p. 1. is supporting the sentence. There are sentences like 'The thugs captured the Victorian imagination like few other things' and 'it also saw its birth as a literary subject with the publication of Philip Meadows Taylor’s Confessions of a Thug' But it does not equate the 'launching a literary tradition' with Queen Victoria who is not mentioned at the passage at all Good

A bit dangerously close to WIKI:SYNTH

Resolved
In the 1840s, the Thuggee and Dacoity Department shifted its focus to communities of "hereditary dacoits", with Act XXIV of 1843 extending the provisions of the 1836 Thuggee Act to include "professional Dacoits".
131 Piliavsky 2013, p. 755. Supports the first part of the sentence by this: "by the 1840s, with Thuggee pronounced dead, it shifted its focus to communities of 'hereditary dacoits'" Good
132 Singha 1998, p. 216. Good

Could not get access to this one

Resolved
Beginning in the 1950s, the colonial-era representation of thuggee as a pan-Indian fraternity of ritual stranglers has come under sustained and diverse scholarly criticism.
145 b Dash 2005, p. xi. "But, beginning in the 1950s, historians began to reasses the portrayal of the Thugs... critiques that portray the murderers as more or less ordinary criminals... of no fix modus operandi." Good
146 Humes 2010, pp. 1294–1295.

Found no passage related to this sentence.

Good Resolved
147 a Wagner 2012, p. 145. "Whether those who killed and plundered travellers can appropiately be described as a pan-Indian fraternity of ritual stranglers is obviously doubtful" Good @Joko2468:

this is a bit problematic. Wagner 2012 does not seem to talk about the literary critique and revisino of the Thugs in the 1950s, so by equatnig his words to Dash's passage, you are committing SYNTH. Dash's passage seems good enough on its own to support the sentence (with a bit of change) and you need not lose Wagner 2012, just use it somewhere else.

Resolved
Wagner argues that while the colonial representation cannot be taken at face value, it was not invented from nothing. He contends that because the records include the questions asked by British officials, historians can identify and evaluate the biases they contain.
155 Wagner 2007, pp. 7, 15–16. Good
He also describes Sleeman as an "eminent self-publicist" whose campaign owed more to the early anti-thuggee operations from 1809 to 1812 than to his own initiative or genius.
171 Wagner 2007, pp. 7–8. Good
conversely theorises that the Thugs had once been authentic worshippers of Kali but that their religious construction had broken down over time and their community identity had disintegrated due to geographical dispersion.
176 Van Woerkens 2002, pp. 182–184. Good
She bases her interpretation upon investigating the etymologies within Ramasee and analysing the various discourses surrounding thuggee.
178 Macfie 2008, p. 393. Good
179 Van Woerkens 2002, p. 8. Good
Thugs preferred wealthy victims and used scouts to gather information on travellers and whether the roads were clear.
191 a Wagner 2007, p. 114. Good already looked through at the GA review spotchecks
Dash notes that Thugs had no objection to shedding blood once their victims were dead. He links the preference for strangulation to the Hanafi school of Islamic jurisprudence prevalent in Mughal India, which treated murder with a weapon (typically associated with bloodshed) more severely.
200 a Dash 2005, p. 73. Good
The 1836 Thuggee Act was later used to prosecute child trafficking and robbers who non-lethally poisoned their victims.
206 a Singha 1993, pp. 142–143. ⏳ I do not have access to this one
According to Wagner and van Woerkens, they believed their actions to be sanctioned by the Goddess.
170 b Wagner 2007, p. 219. Good
214 Van Woerkens 2002, p. 182. Good
Sleeman claimed that the myth held "Kalee Davey" to have created the progenitors of Thugs.
221 b Wagner 2007, p. 138. Good
222 Van Woerkens 2002, p. 152. Good
In making an argument for the inadequacy of regulation in 1818, Perry's assistant made the earliest known reference in northern India to thuggee having a religious element, whereby he claimed that they "worshipped and sacrificed a kid to obtain the auspicious protection of their deity".
233 Wagner 2007, pp. 188–189. Good
She theorises that this caused the Thugs' quest for salvation to devolve from ritually controlled violent actions to mass crimes for which the goods they stole no longer constituted divine payments in return for the sacrificial victims.
242 Van Woerkens 2002, p. 183. Good
The Thugs were also commonly and interchangeably referred to by themselves and fellow villagers as sepoys (meaning 'soldier' or 'retainer') and borrowed military terminology in their use of jemadar to mean gang leader and subedar for when several bands joined together.
250 Wagner 2007, pp. 89, 110. Good
251 Dash 2005, pp. 35, 66–67. Good
Similar argots were used by many different groups in 19th-century India as the lingua franca of the itinerant underworld and trading communities, with Wagner surmising that Ramasee was not exclusive to Thugs.
270 Wagner 2007, p. 133. Good
According to Wagner and Dash, alongside "hereditary thugs" that followed a family tradition and were rooted in their village, there were also "occasional thugs" that fell in and out of the practice.
279 Wagner 2007, pp. 135–136. "But the most conspicuous type was those, like Feringheea, who claimed to be ‘hereditary’ thugs and who were officially acknowledged as being so, as their families’ presence on the 1797 tax list indicated...these thugs were firmly rooted in the locality of their village..." Good
280 Dash 2005, p. 87. "the leaders of many bands were in effect hereditary Thugs, coming from families in which the trade had been practised for generations...others Thugged only occationally, at times when money was short...leaving off the trade for years" Good
Laljee, the head zamindar of Sindouse who had protected the gangs and given them financial advances, was arrested in December 1812 amid a ₨ 5,000 reward for his capture and sentenced to life in prison with hard labour.
290 Wagner 2007, pp. 82, 87–88, 177. Good
291 Dash 2005, pp. 44, 48–49, 65. Good
They supposedly strangled their victims with the leather thongs they used to drive their oxen, suggesting that their main occupation was cattle herding and transportation.
296 a Wagner 2007, p. 128. Good
297 Van Woerkens 2002, p. 137. ⏳ Why is this one cited here? Doesn't seem to contribute anything.
34 d Dash 2005, p. 38. Good
They murdered parents in order to sell their children, typically strangling them with reins, and were officially classified as Thugs in 1839.
303 Wagner 2007, pp. 128, 145. Good
299 b Van Woerkens 2002, p. 103. Good
Though the authorities believed that the approvers could not be reformed, the Jubbulpore School of Industry was established in 1837 as a manufactory where they and their families learnt trades.
312 c Dash 2005, p. 272. Good
314 Rawat & Mukherjee 2025, p. 14. Good
119 c Wagner 2007, p. 215. Good Wagner uses the wording 'in the same year', which implies 1838, as it was the latest year mentioned in the passage, but Rawat and Mukherjee (2025) and Dash 2005 are used here to support the 1837 date.
By the start of the 20th century, the School of Industry had effectively ceased to exist and became a reformatory school for juvenile offenders.
324 Rawat & Mukherjee 2025, p. 19. Good
Kim A. Wagner places this within the broader context of exotic fascinations with the Assassins, African leopard men, witch doctors, and cannibals.
130 b Wagner 2007, p. 2. Good
The 1877 novel Le Procès des Thugs (The Trial of Thugs) by René de Pont-Jest [fr] revolves around a spectacular trial of thuggee chief Feringheea, with the Thugs later allying with the Fenians against their British oppressors.
341 Van Woerkens 2002, pp. 273, 277–278. Good
In the 2014 historical fiction novel The Strangler Vine by Miranda Carter, the protagonists encounter Sleeman's system for reclaiming suspected Thugs at Jubbulpore before becoming suspicious of his treatment of the native population.
346 independent.co.uk web.archive.org Good
347 historicalnovelsociety.org web.archive.org Good
Based on a short story by Mahasweta Devi, the 1968 Hindi film Sunghursh depicts a thuggee family and sees a Kali devotee attempt to pass his mantle on to his grandson, the protagonist.
354 theprint.in web.archive.org Good
Though they sometimes attempt stranglings, the Thuggees bear no resemblance to the Thugs portrayed by 19th century writers and rip out the hearts of their sacrificial victims.
349 b Finkelstein 1990, p. 64. Good
The tax list was obtained in 1834 by William Henry Sleeman, the colonial administrator later put in charge of the British Anti-Thuggee Campaign, and published as 'Appendix O' in his 1836 book Ramaseeana.
43 Wagner 2004, pp. 932, 935, 958 Good
Based on Wilhelm Halbfass's work, she links their supposed beliefs to the Samsaramochaka, religious killers briefly mentioned by Kumārila Bhaṭṭa that believed himsa (antithetical to ahimsa) to be virtuous, and Yoginis in the Netratantra that sacrifice human beings to unite their victims with Shiva.
218 Van Woerkens 2002, pp. 172–174, 356. Good
Sleeman, William Henry (1836). Ramaseeana: Or A Vocabulary of the Peculiar Language Used by Thugs (PDF). Calcutta: G. H. Huttman, Military Orphan Press. In the five years following publication only 100 copies were sold privately, with most of its 750 print run distributed to Company officials.
2 Fhlathúin 2001a, p. 34. Good

Fashion of Catherine, Princess of Wales

[edit]
Nominator(s): MSincccc (talk) 13:52, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the fashion of Catherine, Princess of Wales (more commonly known in the media as "Kate Middleton"). It passed GA in November 2025 and received a peer review earlier this year.

My thanks to Noleander for his mentorship, 750h+ for a thorough GA review, Keivan.f, Gog the Mild and Nikkimaria for their advice and suggestions, and Gerda Arendt, Wehwalt, FrB.TG and Whonting for their comments at peer review. Thanks also to all who take the time to comment during this FAC. Best, MSincccc (talk) 13:52, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Wehwalt

[edit]

Comments from Noleander

[edit]
  • I participated in the Peer Review several months ago, and I think by the end of the PR the article was in fine shape, and near FA status.
  • I ran the copyvio tool and it reported one warning. But the warning is related to a garbage website that apparently copied text from the WP article in September 2025 (not the other way around).
  • Not sure boldface is needed here: Initially, the media reported her first name as "Kate", a diminutive of "Catherine".
  • Citations and sources look good: both in quality/reliability; and format/layout. "Show Ref Check" tool does not reveal any issues.
  • The article might benefit from an image gallery at the bottom ... but I'm not sure if Commons has many decent free-to-use images. To avoid any issues related to WP:OR or WP:SYNTH any pics in a gallery should show outfits/items that sources specifically commented upon. A gallery is not required for FA status ... this comment is simply my personal preference.
  • Prose reads well: several reviewers, including I, went over the prose during the PR.
  • I looked at the licensing info of all the images, and it appears valid. But I have not done a formal image review.

750h

[edit]

Support from Jon698

[edit]
  • I reviewed the DYK for this article some time back and was surprised to see it nominated as a FAC. Will make comments in due time. Jon698 (talk) 09:56, 22 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1. Reference 9 has a paragraph that could be useful for discussing the Kate Effect. It would also provide another mention for Issa, the first fashion company mentioned in the article.
  • 1A. "Though Issa had already been struggling financially, the surge in sales and heightened demand that continued for weeks after the announcement had Helayel looking for an investor to help her keep up. Her friend Camilla Al-Fayed came on in 2011, buying a 51 percent stake in the company. “In the beginning it was good—Camilla was very organized,” she said. “However, in 2012 a new C.E.O. was hired and things started moving in a different direction, which didn’t work for me.”"
  • 2. "She reportedly caught William's attention during a charity fashion show at the University of St. Andrews, while wearing a sheer, lingerie-style, strapless dress on the catwalk" -> Could Lingerie be linked
  • 3. "The same dress sold for £78,000" -> Could you add Template:Inflation
  • 4. "Catherine has been credited with popularising nude pumps" -> Change "pumps" (American English) to "court shoes" (British English)
  • 5. Completely optional, but I would change "has worn" to just "wore" since you use wore more often and is better for future proofing

Whonting

[edit]

I recall flagging a few issues with TSI in the peer review and paused before running through the entire article, so I'll be paying attention to that here. Several of these were flagged by User:Alaexis/AI Source Verification. Feel free to push back where appropriate:

  • Where in the source is the lead image dress identified as partly "silk crepe"? - not yet addressed
  • I don't believe The Telegraph source supports them meeting in 2001. It says they met in their first year, and graduated in 2005. Their first year would have run from from Sep 2001 to May 2002. - not yet addressed
  • The proposal trip lasting 10 days does not appear to be supported.
    • Dropped 10 days.
  • The sources appear to support the proposal announcement taking place at St James's Palace rather than Clarence House
  • The Vanity Fair article states their relationship went public in Spring 2004, not 2002.
    • I've changed to 2004.
  • What in the source is supporting "Catherine's fashion received substantial media attention following the public revelation of her relationship"? - not yet addressed
  • The People source says the sheer dress sold for $125,000, while the Telgraph source says the dress sold for £78,000. Can we establish the dress was sold for dollars? Otherwise this may just be a conversion by an American magazine for its audience, which should not be replicated in a BrEng article.
    • The conversion should clarify $US
  • Many of these I think are fair and are getting picked up by the AI Source Verification tool. I don't think it's a good use of my time to reproduce the list of items it flags, so I hope you can use the tool and go through on your own. Ping me when you're done and I'll jump back in.
  • Suggest linking the Internet Archive copies of Moody 2013 and Smith 2011.
  • I have had a look over unused sources as well:

Whonting (talk) 12:39, 22 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@Whonting Thanks for taking the time to review this. I'll try to reply to them by tomorrow evening. MSincccc (talk) 14:28, 22 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks MSincccc. While you're working on this, I've noticed a few more things in the lead I'll raise now so you can knock it all out at once. Whonting (talk) 14:46, 22 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I can confirm that Holmes 2020 is an excellent source of information on Catherine's fashion that was not incorporated into the article during my review yesterday. AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 13:53, 5 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lead reproduces the 2002 going public error.
  • "since her relationship with Prince William became public" I don't get the sense that this happened until later from the article.
  • "Her style is often described as elegant" I flagged this in the PR and still see it here. My comment there: I see in the lead that Her style is often described as elegant, yet don't see descriptions of elegance in the body. What is being used to support this?
  • Is her outfits being "accessible" a reference to her reusing them? If so, I don't think that works as a summary.
  • My searches indicated that "Kate Effect" was much more common than "Kate Middleton Effect". On the Internet Archive for instance, "Kate Effect" produced 8 times as many results as "Kate Middleton Effect".
  • Is public admiration a reference to her influence on purchase habits? If so, state that plainly.
  • Likewise, is "has had a substantial impact on the clothing industry in the United Kingdom and beyond" a reference to the Kate Effect? Or are there other influences I am missing?

Whonting (talk) 14:46, 22 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@Whonting Thanks for the review. I’ve addressed the points above; please let me know if anything remains. Best, MSincccc (talk) 14:12, 23 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @MSincccc, any movement on the above unused sources? Can I also confirm you have run through the article through the AI source verification tool? Whonting (talk) 06:17, 3 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Whonting Thanks for the suggestions. I’ve incorporated a few of the sources where relevant and have also run the article through the AI source verification tool.
I look forward to your feedback. Best, MSincccc (talk) 07:34, 3 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, looking back over.
  • What are you drawing from to say she stopped working for Jigsaw in 2007?
  • "Sporty" is specifically referring to her skiwear, not a general comment on her fashionsense.
    • Rephrased to specify that this refers to her skiwear.
  • "she often wore simple overcoats and tweed clothing" - Is this supported by "one totally tweed look"?
    • No. Rephrased this sentence.
  • If we are talking about her fashion in the late 2000s, be explicited with WP:DATED when you say "Oliver Marre of The Guardian referred to Middleton as a "fashion icon"". Better work at establishing the timeline is needed throughout, with the change in tenses sometimes strange. Take the following sentences that appear in succession:
    • "Catherine has been credited with popularising nude court shoes in the early years of her marriage." - specific past time
    • "During daytime engagements, she has been seen to favour coatdresses and tailored outerwear." - general assessment, including today
    • "She has also been photographed wearing waxed jackets, lavallière blouses, blazers and skinny jeans." - ambiguously current, more recounting a history
    • "Catherine wore dresses by Jenny Packham numerous times, most notably outside the Lindo Wing after giving birth to her children in 2013, 2015 and 2018" - back to past tense. Later we jump down to a 2016 photoshoot, firmly in the past.
  • "During appearances at public events... However, during evening events" the source precedes the following information with "Even before she became the one of the world’s most photographed women" and is in a section titled "The college years".
  • "Kate Middleton's Secret Pantyhose Hack Is a Modern Marvel" is vestigial as an inline cite
  • Source does not appear to support pumps being popularized in the early years of marriage
  • What in the source is supporting "who designed many of Diana, Princess of Wales's favourite evening gowns and day suits"?
    • Rephrased to: Catherine Walker, a designer favoured by Diana, Princess of Wales which is supported by the source.
  • What is the relevance of Diana to the selection of tiaras? In general the sourcing here is strange: we say "as of 2025" even though the source on Diana is from 2020.
    • The concerned reference has been moved to the “parallels” sentence: “Writers have often compared Catherine's fashion with the fashion of Diana, Princess of Wales.” This now supports only the stylistic comparison rather than selection of tiaras. The tiara list itself is supported by refs 35 and 36. "As of 2025" reflects the latest available sourcing. MSincccc (talk) 17:33, 3 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some instances of WP:QUOTEPOV ("caring wardrobe", "skewed bold")
    • I've paraphrased this and presented the points in neutral prose.
  • "suitable for visiting hospitals and schools" some explanation of what makes a skirt suit particularly appropriate for visiting hospitals or schools would be welcome here. I also think "bright hues" and "colourful fabrics" are saying the same thing.
    • Rephrased to: She has developed a wardrobe suited to engagements such as hospital and school visits, often featuring tailored pieces in bright colours, creating a smart yet approachable appearance.
  • I would think you could find a place to link Engagement dress of Catherine Middleton. "Since her wedding" is an easter egg for Wedding dress of Catherine Middleton.
  • "The spread was dubbed as the "most personal and natural royal portraits ever undertaken by Vogue"" by Vogue, hardly seems DUE.
  • Overarching views: Sorry Msincccc, I'm not quite convinced this is at the FA level and am at an oppose. My impression of the article is that it doesn't feel cohesive, with the background section feeling rushed, the Fashion and style section going between a chronological account to a general description, the best dressed section reading as proseline and insufficiently summarizing sources rather than listing them, and some concerns re TSI (although as I read further in, I am finding less). I find it strange that there is no discussion of her wedding dress even as we have an entire article dedicated to it. I'm sorry to land here, I came back to this happy to go through, pointing out all the issues with TSI I could find and then when you had fixed them land on a support. Whonting (talk) 09:34, 3 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    @Whonting Thanks for the detailed review — I appreciate it. I’ll work through the issues you’ve raised and follow up once revisions are in place. Best, MSincccc (talk) 13:08, 3 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    @Whonting I have addressed all the points raised above. The remaining items are expanding the coverage of the wedding dress and further developing the background section. I would particularly appreciate your thoughts on these two areas before proceeding. Thank you again for the detailed review. Best, MSincccc (talk) 15:50, 3 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    The answer to both of these questions will depend on what you want the section "Fashion and style" to be. At times it feels like it wants to be a chronological account, at others a thematic overview, often bouncing between the two. One manifestation is that at the end, two trailing news pieces are left that obviously didn't fit anywhere else. This is a very broad subtitle (the article is "Fashion of Catherine..." and this subsection is "Fashion and...") and to my eyes at least, it will require broad planning and reorganisation of some kind to flow and appear as a coherent whole.
    And -- not to be too blunt, but you haven't addressed all the points above. The silk crepe question is still remaining after several rounds of reviews and explicit flagging, we don't have any indication of the relevance of Diana to the selection of tiaras (if you think it makes sense and doesn't need changing, please tell me that so I don't think you're missing it or ignoring it), same goes with pumps being popularized in the early years of marriage, proseline issues in the Influence and recognition section, others as well ... I don't want you to stress over this, just have a go at identifying changes and answers to questions line-by-line until you get a few FAs under your belt. Whonting (talk) 16:47, 3 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    @Whonting I've responded above. I look forward to your feedback. Best, MSincccc (talk) 05:19, 4 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks MSincccc, if you don't mind I'll look at it all at once when the more substantive structural issues have been addressed. Whonting (talk) 08:55, 4 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    @Whonting I’ve expanded the background and added a brief discussion of the wedding dress under “Fashion and style”. I’d appreciate your thoughts when you have time.
    Best, MSincccc (talk) 08:45, 5 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    @Whonting I’ve expanded the article and added further sources in line with your suggestions. When you have time, I’d very much appreciate any further thoughts.
    Thanks again for your review. Best, MSincccc (talk) 09:19, 7 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't know. I do feel that we are in a fix loop, and I don't really see this article moving in the direction I would want it to in order to support its promotion to FA. I still see the fashion and style section being overly broad, and as moving between chronology and themes between paragraphs and within them. I don't see that addressed, with its most obvious manifestations, the trailing news items, still there. Let's look at the second and third paragraphs of Fashion and style:
    • "Catherine has been credited with popularising nude court shoes in the early years of her marriage." Okay - I would much prefer you establish that nude court shoes were a common feature of her outfits before going into their influence, but we can chalk that up to taste. Chronologically, we are in early marriage.
    • "During daytime engagements, she has favoured coatdresses and tailored outerwear." We are now speaking generally about her fashion, including today. The sources cited inline, as best I can tell, only speak generally about daytime and tailoring in the following sentence: "She is also a major fan of tailoring in general, wearing everything from double-breasted coats to structured tuxedo styles for evening." This doesn't support her favoring coatdresses in the daytime in particular, and at least for tailoring, positions the preference as general rather than something worn especially in the daytime.
    • "She has also worn waxed jackets, lavallière blouses, blazers and skinny jeans." General list of past outfits, ambiguously present
    • "She has also been photographed wearing simple overcoats and a tweed look." - Same chronology again, and the sentence again begins with "She has also". Even though it's two words, "tweed look" is taken directly from the source and should be reworded. In the source, these outfits are also situated before her marriage, and before all the other outfits in the previous sentence (e.g. "lavallière blouses" were said to debut in 2019). This view from out of time means we don't get a sense of development, which sources do talk about. For instance, Vanderhoof 2020 discusses how her casual outfits are a "far cry from the preppier, more glam looks that she favored when she first joined the royal family." This is not conveyed in the article.
    • "However, during evening events, Catherine has often been noted to adopt bolder styles: for instance, CNN noted her wearing a baroque-printed silk dress, contrasting with her friends' more simplistic styles." this is a general comment on her outfits, including today, despite the fact that, as raised above, the source is commenting on her fashion sense in 2004 and earlier, commenting explicitly on "The college years"
    • "While Catherine wears items from many designers, she has also worn dresses by Catherine Walker, a designer favoured by Diana, Princess of Wales." general comment. "She has also" reappears, and doesn't really make sense (why would her wearing items from many designers mean she wouldn't wear dresses by Walker?)
    • "Catherine wore dresses by Jenny Packham numerous times, most notably outside the Lindo Wing after giving birth to her children in 2013, 2015 and 2018, and at the No Time to Die premiere in London when she appeared in a dress inspired by Shirley Eaton's character in Goldfinger." chronologically in the past. The use of "notably" appears to be an example of MOS:EDITORIAL, given the sources do not highlight these as particularly significant, but rather says "first ever black tie appearance as a royal, making headlines in a blush pink sequin and jewel-encrusted gown by the designer for a charity gala dinner in London in 2011. More recently she wore an emerald green evening gown by the label for her tour of Pakistan in 2019."
    • "Alexander McQueen has been a frequent choice for Catherine since her wedding." - I would prefer if you disambiguated brand from person here, since I recall seeing in a source that her wedding dress was popularly credited to the deceased man.
      • Clarified.
    • "Her wedding dress received positive reactions from fashion commentators and was described as classic and timeless." We are back in the past. We have commentary split between background and Fashion and style. Importantly -- I don't know what the dress looked like from reading this. I hear it is a "white wedding gown" "combining traditional and modern elements and reflecting an emphasis on craftsmanship and traditional workmanship" - which I read as quite vacuous. What is the intended distinction you are drawing between craftsmanship and traditional workmanship? What are the traditional elements? Modern ones? etc.
    • "It was also compared to earlier royal bridal styles, including those of Grace Kelly and the wedding dress of Elizabeth II." in what sense?
      • Clarified.
    • "She has worn its designs to several annual events including Trooping the Colour, Royal Ascot and the British Academy Film Awards, as well as state banquets and receptions." back to general past, including present.
  • In Fashion and style, going by paragraph:
    • Chronological
    • Generally thematic, some general and some historical
    • Some chronological (further back than we have been discussing) and thematic
    • Thematic
    • Chronological
    • Thematic
    • Chronological
    • Chronological
  • As I read this, I don't see a coherent organizing principle.
  • I also want to raise the sources that have been brought in. I will defer to AndrewPeterT that Holmes 2020 and Jobson 2024 have been adequately integrated, but I don't believe some I raised have. Looking at Royal Fever, the only thing brought in was "Scholars have linked the "Kate effect" to consumer behaviour, noting that her choices can shape purchasing decisions in the marketplace." - which I don't think makes sense, given Kate effect is the effect on consumer behaviour, the effect on consumer behaviour can't be linked to consumer behaviour. Page 254 has an example of a tradition Catherine integrated at her wedding; tucking a sprig of myrtle into the bridal bouquet, followed since Victoria, subject to popular myth. On page 261 it points to a potential reference in Cooler, faster, more expensive: the return of the Sloane Ranger, and remarks on the relationship between Catherine and the brand and how she was unusual. Hedonic customer responses to fast fashion and replicas was not brought in, and covers the same subject as page 262-263, on remakes and replicas being brought to market. I stop reading here, but it continues.
  • Other general comments:
    • The assessments around the end of 2010s are quite generous, other sources I read are much more critical.
    • The "Catherine has become a globally influential figure in fashion..." paragraph is quite repetitive and can be consolidated.
      • I've trimmed repetitive wording.
    • The best dressed list section remains listicle in structure (In year, publication named her... for each sentence). Some items appear plainly undue, for instance: who are Wizard Jeans? Who were they polling? Why do we include her listing by British Vogue? The listing is explicitly not because of her fashion. etc.
      • I've removed some weaker entries and reduced the list-like structure, retaining those which are relevant to her fashion influence.
    • I flagged above that the conversion should clarify $US, which should be attended to.
      • Clarified $US.
    • I am still unsure of what the background is intended to be; it appears to include material that I would expect in Fashion and style.
      • The "Background" section is intended to provide readers with context about Catherine before moving into her fashion and style. I've reworked it to keep it focused on her personal background.

Whonting (talk) 12:15, 7 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your detailed comments.
I've reworked the "Fashion and style" section to give it a clearer progression, moving from her early public profile through the wedding and early royal years to later developments. I've also expanded the wedding dress coverage and rephrased parts that felt repetitive or list-like.
Please let me know if anything still needs attention. Best, MSincccc (talk) 10:13, 8 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Summary
[edit]

The above is fairly sprawling, and the article has changed since I made my last comments, and I think it would be helpful to leave a few comments that are easier for other reviewers and the co-ordinators to parse and engage with, and because I think much of it is fairly actionable and even the broader commentary may be able to move the article in a positive direction.

  • Structure
    • This is the first time a broad fashion article has been brought through GA or FA, which brings challenges not present with a song or movie article where the structure doesn't have to be developed from the ground up. I have put emphasis on the article's structure, and I think the article has moved in a positive direction based on that emphasis and on MSincccc's work. To some extent, a more coherent chronology has been ironed out. This being said:
    • In doing so, material was excised. Rather than find a way to integrate the comments on Catherine collaborating on a design or (more credibly UNDUE) a development in the reporting of her outfits, they were removed. If they are DUE, why were they removed, if they were UNDUE, why were they there in the first place?
    • The background section is more focused, but I don't believe merits inclusion in the article. It should be easy enough to fold it in to a chronological narrative that the article has better established; e.g. "Catherine Middleton met Prince William in 2001 while they were students at St Salvator's Hall at the University of St Andrews, Scotland. They began dating after Catherine reportedly... In 2004, their relationship became public, bringing significant media attention...". Subheadings breaking up the large number of paragraphs would better structure the article and establish the chronology.
    • Some of the themes content is broken out and others are not. It should be easy enough to break out, for instance, a section on royal duties and capture the diplomacy and caring wardrobe material, or break out a section on politics and values with material on TimesUp / diplomacy / re-wearing characterised as sustainability (with care to give DUE attention to "practical" characterization), or messenging generally.
    • While things are better, they are still messy in places. Criticism of her attire is organized under "Influence and recognition". Some appraisals are given under Fashion and style, others in Influence and recognition; it's unclear how placement is determined. Looking at the wedding section, the chronology of the previous section jumps into a general statement on her fashion framed around the influence of her wedding, before only then describing what her wedding entailed. The most explicit traditional element is far after most other descriptions, and no detail is given on what the "modernity" [modern elements] entails. It ends with "She has worn its designs to several annual events" is referencing "The Alexander McQueen fashion house has been a frequent choice", four sentences back; the immediate antecedent is the sprig of myrtle comment.
  • Content omissions
    • I gave some sources above that included good information that should be brought in, and after several rounds, they have not been adequately engaged with. Examples of information in Royal Fever that could be brought in were given and explicitly flagged as not exhaustive, only those were brought in. At the FAC level, sources need to be WP:MINED, and these are not.
    • Holmes 2020 mentions Catherine 133 times, we cite two pages. Looking through, I see a great deal of information that really should go in: just on pages 3 and 4, Catherine wearing a dress that exhibited her baby bump after giving birth is attributed broad cultural significance, there is much needed context on royal fashion: that it operates on the model of not explaining messages being conveyed, that it derives significance from the role of royals in making appearances and being photographed. Details on fan sites and magazines chronologing outfits are given missing from the article, Catherine's fashion is part of a broader justification for the public to continue engaging with the royal household. This does not need to be all brought in. But only two pages in this source?
    • I can list a number of aspects that have not been adequately engaged with, without have read the literature in any substantial depth. There is an absence of discussion on fashion dupes, and the development of Catherine's fashion across the course of her marriage limited to a single sentence that describes early fashion as "refined" without elaborate of what that entails. We hear that there is a Kate Effect, but no discussion is spared to what is actually driving such a phenomenon. My impression is that the article is far too slim.

Whonting (talk) 14:12, 15 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gerda

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I took part in the peer review and read the article once more now. I'd like a bit more lead, perhaps reflecting her choices, but am ready to support as it is. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:06, 23 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you @Gerda Arendt. MSincccc (talk) 17:28, 23 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

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―Howard • 🌽33 01:20, 26 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@Howardcorn33 Thanks for the image review. MSincccc (talk) 05:50, 26 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Joko2468: source-text integrity

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This table lists 20 random passages from throughout the article (24.4% of 82 total passages). These passages contain 26 inline citations (25.2% of 103 in the article). Generated with the Veracity user script. Joko2468 (talk) 10:26, 27 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@Joko2468 Thanks for the source-text integrity check. I’ll go through these points later today. Best, MSincccc (talk) 11:00, 27 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for correcting me on those two points, however the material on tiaras needs "as of December 2025" or "as of 2025". The sentence as it stands is likely to become outdated. Joko2468 (talk) 16:13, 27 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Went with "as of 2025", thanks. MSincccc (talk) 16:16, 27 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Great, happy to support promotion on the basis of sourcing. Sources are reliable for the statements made and the subject has been well-researched. All web sources are archived but for ref 1 (an easy fix). Joko2468 (talk) 16:57, 27 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I've archived reference 1. Thanks for the source review. MSincccc (talk) 17:12, 27 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Joko2468 I think I've got to everything. Thanks again. MSincccc (talk) 15:58, 27 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • 26: I'm not familiar with this topic area so please correct me, but is this not original research? It's a good deal beyond my competencies but, further to this, she doesn't appear to be wearing a tea dress, lavallière blouse, waxed jacket, or blazer in the four photographs.
    • Fixed it.
  • 32 and 33: MOS:NOW-- I would also state that she has usually favoured the Lovers' Knot tiara, the article repeats this point throughout.
    • Done.
  • 35: dead archived link, you can replace it with the one that precedes it.
    • Replaced.
  • 59b: I'm not familiar with this terminology, could you explain how design motifs is supported?
    • Reworded.
  • 66b: this gives the impression that the quote comes from the 2018 study rather than Vanity Fair.
    • Rephrased.
  • 81 and 82: the 2011 awards were for "World's Most Stylish Woman" and "Britain's Best-Dressed Personality", and don't appear to necessarily be from the same magazine. Could you provide evidence to confirm that Beauty Magazine awards these titles?
    • The source states:

According to Beauty Magazine, the Duchess of Cambridge was the most beautiful woman of 2012. Kate Middleton… has just been named “Most Beautiful Woman of the Year” for the second consecutive year.

  • 94: I'm struggling to follow the paraphrasing here, could you provide quotes to support quiet authority and reinforced royal continuity?
    • Rephrased.
Reference # Letter Source Archive Status Notes
Catherine Middleton met Prince William in 2001 while they were students in residence at St Salvator's Hall at the University of St Andrews, Scotland.
4 bbc.com web.archive.org ⏳
5 telegraph.co.uk web.archive.org ⏳
Middleton became a Princess of the United Kingdom and Duchess of Cambridge, among other titles, upon her marriage.
12 telegraph.co.uk web.archive.org ⏳
She reportedly caught William's attention during a charity fashion show at the University of St. Andrews, while wearing a sheer, lingerie-style, strapless dress on the catwalk, which had originally been designed as a skirt by Charlotte Todd.
15 b vogue.co.uk web.archive.org ⏳
17 a people.com web.archive.org ⏳
Followed by paparazzi in her daily life, her style was frequently photographed and featured in the press.
19 a theguardian.com web.archive.org ⏳
During appearances at public events, she often wore simple overcoats and tweed clothing.
22 standard.co.uk web.archive.org ⏳
During daytime engagements, she has been seen to favour coatdresses, tea dresses, waxed jackets, lavallière blouses, blazers and skinny jeans.
26 vogue.com web.archive.org ⏳
has worn five tiaras to date: the Cartier Halo Tiara, the Lotus Flower Tiara, Queen Mary's Lover's Knot Tiara, the Strathmore Rose Tiara and Queen Victoria's Oriental Circlet Tiara.
32 people.com web.archive.org ⏳
33 people.com web.archive.org ⏳
She has worn several high-street brands during official engagements and projects, including Hobbs, Boden and Zara.
35 telegraph.co.uk web.archive.org ⏳
36 harpersbazaar.com.au web.archive.org ⏳
Catherine has frequently re-worn outfits during public appearances, a practice described in commentary as sustainable or practical.
44 harpersbazaar.com.au web.archive.org ⏳
45 telegraph.co.uk web.archive.org ⏳
She is also known for wearing colours reflecting national flags during overseas visits and events with visiting foreign leaders, occasionally coordinating her children's outfits as well.
51 tatler.com web.archive.org ⏳
Natasha Archer, Catherine's longtime executive assistant, is widely credited with coordinating her wardrobe for royal tours and engagements.
52 telegraph.co.uk web.archive.org ⏳
In January 2026, it was reported that Catherine had designed the fabric of her coat in collaboration with Johnstons of Elgin.
57 telegraph.co.uk web.archive.org ⏳
Many commentators have highlighted instances where Catherine's outfits resembled Diana's, noting both colour choices and design motifs. The Daily Telegraph observed parallels between Catherine's 2011 wedding-era ensembles and Diana's early public looks.
59 b telegraph.co.uk web.archive.org ⏳
An article published by Vogue Australia in July 2011 noted that Catherine's outfits often sparked high demand, with many items selling out shortly after her appearances, underscoring her commercial impact on fashion.
69 vogue.com.au web.archive.org ⏳
In 2018 a study by Brand Finance cited Catherine as "the most powerful royal fashion influencer", finding that pieces in her wardrobe increase desirability among 38 per cent of American shoppers.
66 b vanityfair.com web.archive.org ⏳
In July Vanity Fair included her on its international best-dressed list.
77 vanityfair.com web.archive.org ⏳
She was named the most beautiful woman of the year by The Beauty Magazine in both 2011 and 2012.
81 lexpress.fr web.archive.org ⏳
82 grazia.fr web.archive.org ⏳
She was also chosen as one of the 25 most influential women in the United Kingdom by British Vogue in August 2021.
87 vogue.co.uk web.archive.org ⏳
She topped Tatler's Best Dressed List in 2022,
88 tatler.com web.archive.org ⏳
Vanessa Friedman of The New York Times remarked that Catherine's coronation attire conveyed quiet authority and reinforced royal continuity.
94 nytimes.com web.archive.org ⏳

Opposition Support from AndrewPeterT

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1. I am truly surprised that this article on Catherine's fashion has made it this far without a single mention of the analysis Elizabeth Holmes (writer). She has written a The New York Times best-selling book on Catherine's fashion, HRH: So Many Thoughts on Royal Style (2020), which has personally helped me better appreciate the sartorial influence of the Princess of Wales. Moreover, Holmes provides frequent commentary about Catherine on Instagram and Substack. I believe this article could benefit from some commentary on Holmes's reflection of Catherine's fashion in her book. For example:
On the engagement dress of Catherine Middleton: Her color-coordinating off-the-rack dress foreshadowed what would become her signature duchess style, and her shiny nude pantyhose signaled a willingness to follow old-fashioned sartorial norms (Holmes 2020, p. 181)
On the 2011 royal tour of Canada: The nine-day tour was a series of lovely, if often super safe, dresses, paired with her nude L.K. Bennett Sledge pumps. It was her first chance to show a bit of sartorial diplomacy... (Holmes 2020, p. 190)
2. I note that Robert Jobson's 2024 biography of Catherine is also not cited in this article as of this post. He also provides some commentary on her fashion that I believe is quite substantive and shows how she uses fashion to support her causes. For example:
On a royal engagement with BAFTA in January 2023: The hot chilli-red Alexander McQueen [GBP]1,980 tailored power suit radiated authority. Matched with accessories including a beautiful [GBP]640 red suede bag by Miu Miu and Florence earrings in gold by the brand Chalk, it was clear Catherine meant business as she stepped out to a pre-campaign launch event... (Jobson 2024, p. 227)
3. Grazia in particular has noted that Catherine has been using Generation Z for influence on her wardrobe. Being a member of Generation Z myself, I can anecdotally say that Catherine has an ability to connect herself and the British royal family with people like me. I think this article does a disservice not mentioning this.
4. I recognize that this is usually not an objection that would be relevant to a fashion article. However, as Catherine is also a political figure, I believe that there should be some commentary on how the costs of her wardrobe have symbolized the excesses of the British royal family. Even back in 2012, Forbes highlighted the cost of Catherine's accessories. Given that Catherine and William have been heckled by anti-monarchist protesters in recent months, I feel especially compelled to mention this.
5. Finally, I know that this has been a can of worms on Wikipedia and in the real life. I will also not oppose the nomination alone over this. However, I believe that the first sentence of this fashion article specifically should be rewritten as "The fashion of Catherine, Princess of Wales, also known as Kate Middleton, has influenced clothing sales..."
As much as I personally, as well as William and Catherine themselves, despise hearing Kate Middleton, I reluctantly note that multiple fashion sources cited here refer to her as such. More anecdotally, I reluctantly concede that among my American friends, talking about the fashion of Catherine, Princess of Wales leads to confusion. However, talking about the fashion of Kate Middleton will elicit quite a few opinions.
I look forward to potentially supporting this nomination in the future. However, as it stands, I do not believe that this article is as comprehensive as it can be, especially for a person as iconic in the fashion world as Catherine.
Please note that I am busy off-wiki, so I may not directly respond to comments, even with a ping. AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 16:22, 4 July 2026 (UTC); edited 15:38, 5 July 2026 (UTC), 15:40, 5 July 2026 (UTC), and 21:07, 5 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
As an addendum, I agree that the other sources Whonting mentioned should somehow be incorporated into the article. This further supports my belief that #1c of WP:FACR has not been met. AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 13:59, 5 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your suggestions @AndrewPeterT. I’ve incorporated selected relevant points from the sources mentioned above to broaden coverage.
If there are any specific areas that remain underdeveloped, or particular material from Holmes (2020) you think should be included, I’d be happy to take a look. Best, MSincccc (talk) 14:30, 5 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@MSincccc: Thank you for incorporating my #1 feedback. Although I would also prefer that #2 to #5 be addressed, I acknowledge that they may be beyond what is required for WP:FA status.
One last suggestion before I support: Is there any way to mention apolitical criticism of Catherine's fashion, in the spirit of WP:NPOV? Although she has received mainly praise for her sartorial preferences, I do believe that Wikipedia readers should also be aware that this praise is not universal. Namely, Jobson 2024 notes on p. 110 that Janet Street-Porter has called Catherine the "Duchess of Drab", in addition to criticism of Catherine from Shobhaa De following the former's 2016 royal tour of India and Bhutan with William. AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 15:38, 5 July 2026 (UTC); edited 21:08, 5 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@AndrewPeterT I've added a brief note on critical commentary regarding her fashion. Thanks again for your suggestions. Best, MSincccc (talk) 17:47, 5 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@MSincccc: Thank you. At this time, I have no further objections. Therefore, I now support this nomination. Congratulations on the hard work. (And if William or Catherine do stumble upon this page someday, I think they would both be impressed!) AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 21:07, 5 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Camilasdandelions

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Hi, I've just found few issues here.

Changed, thanks. MSincccc (talk) 10:33, 5 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Metalicat

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Coming to this as a non-specialist and a first-time reviewer of a fashion article, so this is a lay reader's pass on prose and referencing mechanics only. I'll leave the questions of overall structure and source comprehensiveness to those already engaging with them in depth above.

  • On and by Jenny Packham, whose designs she wore for her first black tie appearance in 2011: the two People citations here cover her 2021 No Time to Die premiere gown and her 2018 post-birth appearance, so the 2011 detail does not seem to come from either. The source Whonting quoted above frames the 2011 gala as her first black-tie appearance "as a royal", which is a slightly narrower claim than the current wording; it may be worth matching the text to that phrasing and citing that source here.
  • In "Influence and recognition": In July Vanity Fair included her on its international best-dressed list. The year is missing here (the citation gives 2008), and as written it falls between the 2018 and 2022 entries, so it reads out of sequence. Adding the year and moving it earlier would fix both.

I have also made a couple of trivial gnoming fixes directly (page-range en dashes, a stray double space); please revert if any are unwelcome. Nice work bringing this as far as you have; it's a demanding article to get to this standard. Metalicat (talk) 18:01, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@Metalicat Thanks for your comments and the fixes. I look forward to your response. Best, MSincccc (talk) 07:12, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
P.S I've grouped the Vanity Fair items together for readability, so the 2008 entry appears there. Happy to adjust if you'd prefer otherwise. Best, MSincccc (talk) 09:00, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Both points resolved. Thats all I can see from a lay readers pass, so Support on prose and referencing mechanics. Metalicat (talk) 09:18, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Metalicat. MSincccc (talk) 09:19, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Pbritti

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I'll probably end up making a few comments over the next 24 hours with the hopes of making a conclusive statement one way or the other shortly thereafter. ~ Pbritti (talk) 23:24, 13 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

  • For "£78,000 (equivalent to US$125,000)", consider £{{formatprice|{{Inflation|UK-GDP|78000|2011|r=-3}}}} in {{inflation-year|UK-GDP}}{{inflation-fn|UK-GDP}} (US${{Inflation|US-GDP|125000|2011|r=-3}} in {{inflation-year|US-GDP}}{{inflation-fn|US-GDP}}) to reflect inflation.
  • "Her influence was evident" Consider adding a specific date for this. This sentence is another opportunity to use the inflation calculator.
    • Added the year. I have not included an inflation conversion here, as the amount is relatively minor.
  • In the lead, you link to Alexander McQueen (the person). However, there is no direct mention of McQueen in the body, with subsequent linking going to Alexander McQueen (fashion house). Since the only McQueen pieces with design attribution sourced are those by Sarah Burton, I think the lead's link should be to the fashion house. That'll require a very minor rewrite of that sentence.
    • Rephrased it in the lead.
  • If you want to retain mention of McQueen (the person), source 76 verifies him as a designer she wore.
  • There is an inconsistent use of commas in sentences starting like "In June 2016,". Consider universalizing the comma following the year, such as changing "In 2007 Oliver Marre..." to "In 2007, Oliver Marre..."
    • Standardised the comma usage.
  • While the italicization of the article's title follows Britannica's usage, British Vogue seems to be the full name of that publication and is italicized in full in other publications and throughout our article on the magazine. I think an expert on Condé Nast might need to chime in here.
  • Entirely optional, but I would consider some sort of visual illustration of the parallels between Diana and Catherine in the relevant section. Even just using the image of the replica of their common sapphire ring might be useful.
  • Attempted to verify the quote "to-the-knee pencil skirts and Philip Treacy hats" (Please put the period outside the quotation mark). The link is dead and the archive link didn't properly capture the page. However, viewing the source code, I was able to verify that the quote is indeed in there.
  • For source 32, Natalie Hammond is the author and the publication date is 30 November 2020.
    • Added the author and publication date.
  • Link Tatler on first mention in the body.
    • Linked.
@Pbritti I look forward to any further thoughts or suggestions, when you have the time. Thanks again. Best, MSincccc (talk) 15:23, 18 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
My concerns are satisfied. Glad to lend my Support Thank you for your strong editing on this article! ~ Pbritti (talk) 20:35, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Hurricane Frances

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Nominator(s): ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:55, 19 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Hurricane Frances, one of four hurricanes to hit the United States in 2004. Frances hit the Bahamas before hitting Florida, and both areas were hit three weeks later by another hurricane. Frances was somewhat forgotten in hurricane circles, as it was not the strongest US landfall of the year, but instead its impacts were widespread from floods and tornadoes. The hurricane produced one of the largest tornado outbreaks related to a tropical cyclone. Thanks to Timcigar12 (talk · contribs) with the tornado tables.

If any parts of the article are too technical, or boring, please feel free to call me out. I know the perception of hurricane articles, that all of them feel the same. Indeed, I've been trying to rectify that by merging a bunch of hurricane articles, including some featured articles. I'm trying to balance that by working on some more important storms, such as this retired storm that spawned 103 tornadoes, dropped nearly 2 ft (0.61 m) of rain, and caused nearly $10 billion in damage. I hope you enjoy the read. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:55, 19 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by MCRPY22

[edit]
Some notes
"Across the state, 4.2 million people lost power, with outages as far west as the Florida panhandle, where Frances made a second, weaker landfall. After moving through central Florida, Frances made a second, weaker landfall along the Florida panhandle." "second, weaker landfall" is used two sentences in a row.
Ack, thanks. What about "Across the state, 4.2 million people lost power, with outages as far west as the Florida panhandle. After moving through central Florida, Frances made a second, weaker landfall along the Florida panhandle. "
"At 00:00 UTC on August 25,}} Tropical Depression Six formed" Weird "}}" thing.
Fixed. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:11, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
"Frances continued through the southeastern United States, producing a prolific tornado outbreak." Is there any detail on why such a large outbreak occurred? Not like an in-depth explanation necessarily but this seems like it could be important to mention
"With a frontal boundary moving northward ahead of the storm, the plentiful moisture and wind shear produced intense thunderstorms in Frances' rainbands, leading to 103 twisters from Florida to Maryland." ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:11, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
"Both Kennedy Space Center and Walt Disney World closed during the hurricane, the latter only its fourth time to date" I think the second part would be better as "the latter for only the fourth time to date"
Done. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:11, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
"Seven of the deaths were traffic fatalities, and another five deaths were traffic accidents with downed trees" Feels a little clunky and can be misunderstood, might be missing something but I think it's better as something like "twelve deaths were traffic fatalities, five of them being related to downed trees"
Oh yea, good point. Changed to - "Twelve of the deaths were traffic fatalities, including five due to accidents with downed trees." ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:11, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
"This included dozens of homes that were destroyed" Looking at the sources, "dozens" here should be "hundreds" or maybe even "thousands," not sure.
There isn't a clear number of total number of destroyed buildings, other than the mobile homes per this source. As such, I changed this part to - "This included 99 mobile homes that were destroyed or unrepairable." ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:11, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
"Frances's circulation flooded downtown Punta Gorda, after producing a negative 5 ft (1.5 m) storm surge" what is "negative storm surge?"
Changed to "On Florida's west coast, a storm surge 5 ft (1.5 m) flooded downtown Punta Gorda. " ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:11, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
"There was one indirect fatality related to Frances in Alabama" What were the details of this indirect fatality? Is that known?
Ugh I've spent a lot of time trying to find out more info, but the TCR doesn't give anything other than an indirect death in Alabama. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:11, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
"A NWS employee reported a tornado." -> "An NWS employee reported a tornado."
Fixed. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:11, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
"Following the back-to-back floods, Asheville began requiring that new buildings in potential flood areas be built at least 2 ft (0.61 m) higher. After the 2004 hurricane season, Asheville began keeping water reservoir levels deliberately low during hurricane season as a precaution." Is there a way to avoid using "Asheville began" twice like that while keeping it accurate? Would, "Following the back-to-back floods, Asheville began requiring that new buildings in potential flood areas be built at least 2 ft (0.61 m) higher and started keeping water reservoir levels deliberately low during hurricane season as a precaution." work? I understand if the sentence is too long. MCRPY22 (talk) 21:16, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Yea that works. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:11, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@MCRPY22: Thanks for the comments, I think I got everything so far. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:11, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Without having read the rest of the article, the tornado table, even as a collapsible, looks awkward. Since the table was removed from Hurricane Cindy (2005), I propose that’s done so here - and a description of each tornado be written in prose. ~2026-36662-33 (talk) 14:55, 25 June 2026 (UTC) strike sock-- Ponyobons mots 17:19, 25 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Are you MCRPY22? You replied under their comments. Regardless, there was a discussion about whether there should be tables or not, between the hurricane and tornado editors, and having the tables was the better option. This applies to FAC criteria 2b, and the "appropriate structure" has already been discussed. Are there any further notes? ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 16:26, 25 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I'm gonna level with you I've got some stuff to deal with, won't be able to give any more depth for a review for the foreseeable future. I'm not sure if it's appropriate for me to give a support without that, but the article seems good. MCRPY22 (talk) 01:17, 26 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@MCRPY22: take care of whatever you have to deal with! There is no deadline, and it's important to deal with real-life things when they arise. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:04, 26 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

750h

[edit]
lead
  • ashore Florida on Hutchinson Island as a ==> "ashore Hutchinson Island in Florida as a"
  • The rains caused river flooding and landslides, while also damaging 11,107 homes in North Carolina. ==> "The rains caused river flooding and landslides and damaged 11,107 homes in North Carolina."
meteorological history
  • On the next day, I think this works better without the "On"
  • between August 31 through September 2 ==> "between August 31 and September 2"
  • system briefly re-attained gale force winds might be worth linking "gale"?
preparations
  • issued as far south as Guadeloupe, and as far west as i think this sentence would flow better without the comma, though either is fine
impact
  • coastal houses in northern Dominican Republic ==> "coastal houses in the northern Dominican Republic"
  • The storm destroyed six houses, and forced around 50 people comma redundant here
  • three-day path through The Bahamas, leading "the" in "the Bahamas" shouldn't be capitalized
  • Four fatalities were due to falling tree ==> "Four fatalities were due to falling trees"
  • after a fire, caused by lighting candles comma redundant
  • with least 52 homes destroyed ==> "with at least 52 homes destroyed"
  • a storm surge 5 ft (1.5 m) ==> "a storm surge of 5 ft (1.5 m)"
  • one-third of the state's pecans, and damaged about comma redundant
  • than 200 people required rescued from ==> "than 200 people were rescued from"
  • were isolated after flood and landslides damaged ==> "were isolated after floods and landslides damaged"
  • The combination of rains and wind gusts ==> "The combination of rain and wind gusts"
  • Frostburg, Maryland recorded 6.26 in (159 mm) of MOS:GEOCOMMA: there should be a comma after "Maryland"
  • floodwaters washed away roads and inundated bridges, after creeks and streams comma redundant here
  • Schools closed due to ==> "Schools were closed due to"
  • reaching at 5.4 in (137 mm) in Kingston, Ontario ==> "reaching 5.4 in (137 mm) in Kingston, Ontario"
aftermath
  • spent $1.3 million toward bug and rat control I think "on" works better than "toward" here
  • By ten years after the hurricanes "By" shouldn't be used here. If you mean around this period, I think you could use "About ten years after"
  • Carolina without water supply ==> "Carolina without a water supply"
  • damaged again by Hurricane Jeanne, although a lesser extent ==> "damaged again by Hurricane Jeanne, although to a lesser extent"

@Hurricanehink: that's all I got, nice work. Music Box (Mariah Carey album) could use a review; if you can it would be much appreciated (no obligation though). Thanks for this article! 750h+ 16:41, 2 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Z1720

[edit]

I read the article for prose. Comments below:

  • I made some edits to the prose. Feel free to revert if not helpful.
  • "a few weeks earlier, especially in the central portion of the state.[53][56][57][58][59][60][61][62][63][64]" Consider a WP:CITEBUNDLE for these.
  • Rather than cite bundle (since most of these refs are used multiple times), I split up the section more for where these refs actually cited (rather than the end of the section). ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 05:10, 8 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Floods or landslides damaged 20 roads, including two bridges in Erie County that were destroyed. A railroad bridge in Blair County. Floodwaters reached 4 ft (1.2 m) deep on parts of I-90." The second sentence in this quote needs to be expanded upon.
  • Added the "dup refs" yellow banner.

Please ping when ready for re-review. Z1720 (talk) 01:53, 8 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@Z1720: I believe I got these. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 05:10, 8 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Source review - pass

[edit]

Here'll be a source review from me! RedShellMomentum 03:49, 15 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This table lists 10 random passages from throughout the article (5.0% of 201 total passages). These passages contain 14 inline citations (5.4% of 259 in the article). Generated with the Veracity user script. RedShellMomentum 03:49, 15 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@Hurricanehink: Source review is all good. I've also recently opened up a FAC for "Dick in a Box", you may leave comments there if you wish. RedShellMomentum 04:02, 15 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Reference # Letter Source Archive Status Notes
Across the Bahamas, more than 1,500 people stayed in shelters during the hurricane.
19 a reliefweb.int ✅
Flights were delayed at Dulles International Airport in Virginia due to the storm.
33 a ncdc.noaa.gov ✅
Approximately 50% of residences in Coopers Town and North Abaco on the Abaco Islands sustained damage. Several buildings lost parts of their roofs, including a government building. About 20 homes were flooded in Marsh Harbour, along with two buildings at Marsh Harbour Airport.
48 e reliefweb.int ✅
50 reliefweb.int ✅
20 f mfabahamas.org web.archive.org ✅
The greatest damage occurred in Indian River, Martin, and St. Lucie counties, with monetary damage of more than $1 billion in each county.
56 b weather.gov ✅
As Frances moved inland during its final landfall, it produced wind gusts of 52 mph (83 km/h) in Dothan, Alabama.
2 s nhc.noaa.gov ✅
Flood damage left Asheville without drinking water for a few days, and 4,000 people lost telephone service.
101 a citizen-times.com ✅
100 b muse.jhu.edu ✅
Streams and creeks flooded across southeastern Ohio, closing several roads, and a mudslide closed a portion of Route 258. Across the state, the floods damaged at least 671 homes, including five that were destroyed, forcing hundreds of people to evacuate. In the village of Minerva, dozens of people had to be rescued, and the sewage treatment was damaged.
114 b ncdc.noaa.gov ✅
115 ncdc.noaa.gov ✅
While over the southeastern United States, Frances's circulation contributed to three days of smog across southern Ontario.
238 airqualityontario.com ✅
In Freeport, the Salvation Army provided thousands of meals, water, and basic supplies.
240 reliefweb.int ✅
A week after Frances flooded parts of western North Carolina, the region was flooded again by Hurricane Ivan. The two storms contributed to rainfall records across the western portion of the state.
97 c climate.ncsu.edu ✅

Hopeless Fountain Kingdom

[edit]
Nominator(s): Camilasdandelions (✉️) 10:59, 19 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

American singer Halsey released her sophomore album, Hopeless Fountain Kingdom, a concept album that reimagined Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet through a bisexual lens set within a dystopian purgatory. While it divided some critics over its stylistic experimentation, Hopeless Fountain Kingdom became a massive milestone for her, making her the first female artist to open atop the US Billboard 200 that year and spawning major chart-topping hits like "Now or Never" and "Bad at Love". I hope you all enjoy the article, and I truly appreciate anyone taking their time to review. Camilasdandelions (✉️) 10:59, 19 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

[edit]
  • File:Romeo_and_juliet_brown.jpg: when and where was this first published?
@Nikkimaria Removed the second one, but I'm bit unsure with the first. Could you please clarify your question for this? It is used in various featured articles like Choral symphony, Fearless (Taylor Swift album), Love Story (Taylor Swift song) etc.. Camilasdandelions (✉️) 00:49, 20 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
It has a tag stating that "This work is in the public domain in the United States because it was published (or registered with the U.S. Copyright Office) before January 1, 1931." Under US copyright law, "published" has a particular technical definition. My question is, was that definition met before 1931 as claimed? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:01, 20 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria As I am not the uploader, I'm actually not aware of its publication history as well. I used it because it fits in the section and has long been used in other various featured articles without issues. Should I ask its publication information on Wikimedia Commons? Camilasdandelions (✉️) 01:56, 20 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
You could, but you're just using it to illustrate Romeo and Juliet rather than this specific painting, correct? If so, the simpler option might be to find an alternative image with clearer status; there are quite a few available. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:59, 20 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Would this file be fine? I'll apply the image to those featured articles either once you approved it. Thank you so much for your help. Camilasdandelions (✉️) 02:29, 20 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
That one would have the same question - was it published before 1931? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:39, 20 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria: I guess so, as I assume a good faith, but I would like to be more clear on this too. As no one has asked nor pointed the image out for its publication in those featured article candidates before, I have no idea for this issue for now. Also I have looking for another images in the category you provided, but I failed since most of them said they were published before 1931 too (without clear evidence). Could you suggest me a good image for it? Thanks and sorry for bothering you.. Camilasdandelions (✉️) 06:39, 20 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Any of these would work: File:Romeo_and_Juliet_lobby_card.jpg; File:Tales_from_Shakespeare-1918-0311.jpg; File:Tales_from_Shakspeare_(1831)_p289_Romeo_and_Juliet.png; File:Lamb-p125.png. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:07, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria Thanks a lot! I addressed it Camilasdandelions (✉️) 06:26, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

750h

[edit]

Hi, I'll leave comments here soon. 750h+ 14:20, 20 June 2026 (UTC) [reply]

@Camilasdandelions: that's all i got. Nice job on the article. 750h+ 12:22, 30 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@750h+: Thank you so much for your review, I've addressed your comments. Not sure about "later at Billboard Music Awards", since there's no difference. Camilasdandelions (✉️) 14:38, 30 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Added a comment regarding that. 750h+ 04:11, 1 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@750h+: All done! Camilasdandelions (✉️) 04:17, 1 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Happy to support! Nice work! 750h+ 06:19, 1 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

[edit]

MSincccc

[edit]
Bottom line
Thank you so much!! Camilasdandelions (✉️) 16:06, 8 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - pass

[edit]

Putting myself down for a source review. I'm glad to have helped a tiny bit with this article! RedShellMomentum 23:33, 13 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This table lists 8 random passages from throughout the article (4.9% of 163 total passages). These passages contain 10 inline citations (3.8% of 265 in the article). Generated with the Veracity user script. RedShellMomentum 23:33, 13 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@Camilasdandelions: Source review is all good. I've recently opened up a FAC for "Dick in a Box", not sure if you saw it yet. RedShellMomentum 23:40, 13 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the source review :) Will take a look for it soon! Camilasdandelions (✉️) 00:17, 14 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Reference # Letter Source Archive Status Notes
She was an executive producer and oversaw the album's concept, songwriting, visual direction, and accompanying fan experiences.
5 a iheart.com ✅
On "Alone", Deborah Krieger of PopMatters and Caramanica observed a lyrical and musical resemblance to Alessia Cara's "Here" and Ed Sheeran's "Dive", respectively.
9 b popmatters.com web.archive.org ✅
26 d nytimes.com web.archive.org ✅
Inspired by Halsey's breakup with co-writer Lido, "Lie" was described by Halsey as the most difficult song on the album to write.
40 dazeddigital.com web.archive.org ✅
The deluxe edition contains a remixed version of "Alone" which features the rappers Big Sean and Stefflon Don,
59 a music.apple.com web.archive.org ✅
Hannah Lux Davis co-directed the music video, and it was unveiled on April 6.
87 billboard.com web.archive.org ✅
Hopeless Fountain Kingdom debuted at number one on the US Billboard 200 with 106,000 album-equivalent units,
65 b billboard.com web.archive.org ✅
98 a rollingstone.com web.archive.org ✅
Italy,
107 a italiancharts.com ✅
Mexico,
136 a amprofon.com.mx ✅

Comments from SNUGGUMS

[edit]

You're welcome for the input, and I support since changes have been made quickly. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 12:19, 14 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Query

[edit]

@FAC coordinators: Can I nom a new article soon? This nomination has gathered 4 supports, source review passed, and it seems there's no issue with image licenses. Regards, Camilasdandelions (✉️) 01:57, 16 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. FrB.TG (talk) 02:01, 16 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Amrom Harry Katz

[edit]
Nominator(s): — Very Polite Person (talk/contribs) 04:08, 19 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a barely known (in wider terms) engineer and scientist who from WW2 to modern times seems to have more or less guided major portions of our artificial satellite systems related to satellite imagery and their advancements. The ultra-majority of his work was for military and intelligence uses... but without those, we probably don't get many imaging advances and benefits of things like all this. So here he is. This is my first FAN, so apologies if I get anything wrong. — Very Polite Person (talk/contribs) 04:08, 19 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Nikkimaria

[edit]

Image review

Hi, all set: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Amrom_Harry_Katz&diff=1360161224&oldid=1360089211 — Very Polite Person (talk/contribs) 16:39, 19 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

RandomEditsForWhenIRemember

[edit]

RandomEdits Congratulations on your first nomination. I've had an initial readthrough earlier and I'll add some comments shortly, just leaving this as a placeholder. RandomEditsForWhenIRemember (talk) 20:45, 22 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

A nice read overall, and pretty approachable for someone I had not heard of before.. Here's my initial thoughts.
Lead
  • Mostly good, but I would remove the nickname part as the sentence is already quite long and it's not particularly important compared to the awards.
Early life and education
  • Pedantic, but we go "Max (father) and Lena (mother). His mother was a homemaker and his father... Swapping these helps consistency. Alternatively these sentences could be combined; "born in Chicago to Max, a real estate property manager and Lena Katz, a homemaker.
  • For flow, it would be better to have the mention of his brothers before his education. Currently it goes family members -> moving/education -> family -> education
  • Katz attended the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) for his graduate work This is pretty vague. What was his graduate work in?
  • Had a question on this one:
Katz attended the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) for his graduate work This is pretty vague. What was his graduate work in?
So interestingly, last time I couldn't find anything really past this. Just that one passing mention in the New York Times. What do? — Very Polite Person (talk/contribs) 14:08, 23 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, interesting - obviously Katz isn't my area of expertise but I couldn't find anything more on this either... In which case, this is fine to leave. You have a source directly saying "Mr. Katz was born in Chicago, grew up in Milwaukee, received a bachelor's degree in 1939 from the University of Wisconsin and did graduate work at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology." so we shouldn't weaken the point if there's no more details available. RandomEditsForWhenIRemember (talk) 20:07, 23 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I took another pass at it today - bupkis. Whatever he did (mid, late 1940s?) going back, it's not documented in a public-accessible venue I can find yet... — Very Polite Person (talk/contribs) 00:15, 24 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Army Air Corps
  • One thing I noticed here and further, you make use of "Memorial address by Ondrejka" as the backbone for much of this article. While obituaries are not disallowed, we have to consider that by design they are going to eulogise the deceased person and present their best side. As such, while usable for basic claims, for claims like a "leading the charge in X", if possible alternative sources for many of these would be safer if possible. See WP:OBITUARIES.
  • For example "significantly enhancing reconnaissance imaging during World War II." is a strong claim, and is attributed solely to a eulogy speech. Other sources would be great.
  • Same with "leading the oblique aerial photographic documentation of the detonations." I believe it is fine to say he was involved using a eulogy speech as reference, but being the frontfather of the work is a stronger claim.
This should be fine in my eyes, but another reviewer might comment on this. I'd leave it for now and see what the next reviewers for now. RandomEditsForWhenIRemember (talk) 20:13, 23 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Before the tests, international journalists waited with nothing to report.[9]: 32  He arranged for friends at a U.S. airbase to send horseshoes and manure (shipped in dry ice to conceal the odor).[9]: 32  Simulated horse tracks were created by Katz and friends in the middle of the night, scattering manure along the trail, hoping to find reporters investigating a horse that did not exist.[9]: 32  I enjoy the story, but this is a bit anecdotal. Could this be more integrated or compressed? I would be hesitant to remove it outright. (You also use the same ref twice in a row)
Nice, looks good to me. RandomEditsForWhenIRemember (talk) 19:55, 23 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • used math to plan Far too vague. What exactly was he doing? What field of math?
  • Overall good, I am just concerned as mentioned about the obituary use and subsequent flattery. You could certainly have these sort of lines if alternative sources can be found. For example an article about a horse I am working uses lines like "she greatly shocked X" or "was considered a leading contender for turf-racing fillies" but these are attributed to independent sources.
RAND corporation
  • Katz and many of his colleagues were later recognized as founding figures in the establishment of the United States Intelligence community's new National Reconnaissance Office (NRO) in 1960; the NRO's very existence would remain a classified state secret until 1992. Again, I'm quite concerned strong claims like "Founding father" are being given solely to the same eulogy speech. Are there any other sources that could be used here?
  • Katz told staff at the National Photographic Interpretation Center that RAND’s interest was sparked by a skyhook balloon that had "escaped" and subsequently overflew Europe and Asia undetected A bit wordy. Could this be reduced to "According to Katz, interest in RAND/RAND's interest was sparked by a...
  • The project evolved from WS-117L, also known as SAMOS, a cover for the development of the KH-7 Gambit reconnaissance satellites. I had to re-read this paragraph a few times - should this be "The project evolved _into_ WS-117L?" Or "the pair's work was brought into the fold of the wider project WS-117L"?
  • Katz was credited by Davies and William R. Harris for his role in bringing Boston University's Walter Levison, then bed-ridden in a hospital from a back injury, into their team, which led to panoramic cameras with longer focal lengths A meaty sentence. How about "Katz was credited by Davies and William R. Harris for helping recruit Walter Levison of Boston University. Levison, despite being bed-ridden in hospital from a back-injury, was able to held with the development of panoramic cameras with longer focal lengths.
  • Either way, you use 'panoramic cameras' twice in quick succession here.
  • but with cautions noted by him to never refer to it as Wordy, suggest "while cautioning them to never refer to it as"
Impacts on aerospace and intelligence doctrines
This looked good to me.
Arms Control and Disarmament Agency
  • a remark that left the president laughing Somewhat superfluous.
  • You use ref 21 twice in the same sentence.
  • Throughout his career, Katz served on and attended many international conferences, talks and summits related to Soviet Union–United States relations and the nuclear arms race between them, including the Strategic Arms Limitation Talks, the Pugwash Conferences on Science and World Affairs, and the American Assembly. Very long run on sentence
Awards and legacy
  • I believe this is mostly fine, though I'll double check later. Certainly some strong claims being made, but from my glance through of the refs in this area they seemed to be accurate.
Misc
  • Not necessary, but when someone does your ref spot check, they may not be able to access newspapers.com as it's a subscription website. You should either mark the refs using it with a |url-access=subscription or use the website's clipping feature to generate a free-to-view url.
Yes, that should be fine as you've marked them as subscription needed. If you're interested in practicing clipping at a later date, you just need to click the clip button in the top right, drag and drop the box over your text, then hit save and then share for the url. The website also has an autoclip feature if it thinks what you're looking at is an obituary. I've clipped the four articles so you can compare results.
https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-wisconsin-jewish-chronicle-katz-bros/200174653/
https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-wisconsin-jewish-chronicle-amrom-kat/200174790/
https://www.newspapers.com/article/albuquerque-journal-u-s-reported-tight/200174937/
https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-blade-obituary-for-amrom-katz/200174993/
RandomEditsForWhenIRemember (talk) 20:02, 23 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Aw, I was hoping it would bypass the paywalls if you went that way. Guess not... did our Wikimedia Library account with Newspapers.com expire? — Very Polite Person (talk/contribs) 17:04, 24 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

That's all from me for the first round of comments, I think this is heading in a good direction. My only real concern is the obituary issue, and it might be worth checking with a more experienced biopic-reviewer to see if I'm being overly cautious or whether a bit of reworking/resourcing needs to be done. UndercoverClassicist is quite active and I bieleve has done a lot of reviews of academic/scientist biographies - he might be able to advise better than me here if you leave a message on his talk page.

Additionally, if you have time for a FA review yourself when you're not working on this, I have a FA about a horse up at the moment that could do with one more prose reviewer, but this isn't required as part of this review by any means! :) RandomEditsForWhenIRemember (talk) 22:15, 22 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I've started into your feedback. — Very Polite Person (talk/contribs) 16:06, 23 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@RandomEditsForWhenIRemember: I think that's all the feedback so far...? — Very Polite Person (talk/contribs) 17:04, 24 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Great, I'll take another look tomorrow! RandomEditsForWhenIRemember (talk) 22:20, 24 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks VPP, this is looking in a good state to me now. At this point, my main concern is just the obituary/memorial use. I believe this in a better state of use than previously, but as I said this unfortunately isn't my area of expertise and will probably need something with more experience reviewing FA articles than myself to confirm if the use is fine. So for now I'll put support pending on article's successful spotcheck. Please feel free to ping me if anything changes when that happens. Best of luck with your other reviewers. RandomEditsForWhenIRemember (talk) 20:04, 25 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Metalicat

[edit]

Coming at this as a non-specialist on reconnaissance history, so the following is prose, MoS and internal-consistency only.

  • RAND corporation: the cited "NRO at 60" booklet dates the office's creation to 6 September 1961 ("When the NRO was created on 6 September 1961..." and "From its inception in 1961"), so "National Reconnaissance Office (NRO) in 1960" should read 1961.
This one is all set. — Very Polite Person (talk/contribs) 00:12, 30 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Army Air Corps: the Inchon claim, that Katz's tide work enabled the timing of the amphibious landing at the Battle of Inchon, rests on the Ondrejka memorial (which you flagged for WP:OBITUARIES) and, for the seawall detail, on Katz's own oral history. The standard accounts of the Inchon tidal intelligence credit the ground reconnaissance of US Navy Lt Eugene F. Clark, who confirmed the Japanese tide tables; I couldn't place Katz in the mainstream Inchon literature. I'd suggest attributing this to Katz's own account and softening "enabled the timing", unless an independent source ties his photogrammetric work to the Inchon planning.
@Metalicat: This I'm genuinely curious about because we got the LA Times here saying "During his 13 years there, Katz developed aerial reconnaissance equipment used during World War II, organized the photographic recording of the atom bomb test at Bikini Atoll in 1946, and went to Korea to locate a suitable landing site at Inchon for invasion forces. Among other innovations, he devised a photographic method of determining the height of tides, a key factor in timing the invasion at Inchon."
And then this primary source from the US Air Force (Copy of a letter to USAF reconnaissance pioneer Amron Katz confirming the predicted height of the Inchon sea wall. (U.S. Air Force photo)). What can we do with this...? — Very Polite Person (talk/contribs) 00:12, 30 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
That settles it for me, thanks, the LA Times obituary and the McElwain letter are plenty to show the Inchon role is real. One small thing on wording: it's just the "his tide analysis enabled the timing" sentence (the one cited to Ondrejka) that I'd ease, since the LA Times two lines up has him devising a method of determining tide heights, with tide height "a key factor in timing the invasion", which stops just short of "enabled". I'd track that phrasing and lean the sentence on the LA Times cite that's already there. The letter's a nice find, though it's primary and really about the predicted sea-wall heights, which the seawall sentence already covers from the NYT and oral history, so I'd keep it as supplementary at most. Metalicat (talk) 07:36, 30 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Metalicat: how is this for the outcome? Good? — Very Polite Person (talk/contribs) 17:02, 30 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • RAND corporation: the optical designer linked as James Baker is the politician. The collaborator of Edwin Land on the Polaroid and U-2/SAMOS optics is the Harvard optical designer James Gilbert Baker, who has his own article; suggest James Gilbert Baker. (Distinct from founder William O. Baker, who appears later.).
Sorry, good catch, fixed. — Very Polite Person (talk/contribs) 17:02, 30 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • The infobox image |alt= reads "Amron Harry Katz", and two citation |authorlink= values (on "The Myth of Overkill" and "A Guide for the Perplexed") read Amron Harry Katz; these should be "Amrom", and as authorlinks they currently point away from this article.
Pretty sure that was all my fat fingering; fixed. — Very Polite Person (talk/contribs) 17:02, 30 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Awards and legacy: earned him the nickname "Slide-Rule Katz" from General George William Goddard, reflecting his reputation for intellectual precision. The closing clause restates "analytical sharpness" from earlier in the same sentence; I'd end it at "...George William Goddard."
Agreed, fixed. — Very Polite Person (talk/contribs) 17:02, 30 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Awards and legacy: quick to discern possible civilian applications of reconnaissance technology", and applying it to humanitarian and environmental causes breaks parallel after the quotation; "and to apply it" or a recast would fix it.
What do you think of this? — Very Polite Person (talk/contribs) 17:02, 30 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • A few minor points: "He had two brothers; Matty..." reads better with a colon;
Fixed. — Very Polite Person (talk/contribs) 17:02, 30 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • described that Katz's views ... were based wants "stated that";
Fixed. — Very Polite Person (talk/contribs) 17:02, 30 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • credited the statement to him that, is awkwardly worded and comma-spliced;
How's this? — Very Polite Person (talk/contribs) 17:02, 30 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a notable exchange" editorialises slightly;
Fixed. — Very Polite Person (talk/contribs) 17:02, 30 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. — Very Polite Person (talk/contribs) 17:02, 30 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
All looks good, thanks for working through these. The Inchon rewrite in particular reads well now. Support on prose and MoS (I haven't assessed comprehensiveness or source-to-text, so the obituary-sourcing question is one for the source review). And if you've any time going spare, I've got National Sporting Club open at FAC and still waiting on its first content review, no obligation at all. Metalicat (talk) 23:35, 30 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

HMS Sardonyx

[edit]
Nominator(s): simongraham (talk) 16:29, 18 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a Royal Navy destroyer that had an interesting life, laid down during the First World War yet survived to serve as an escort to the Normandy Landings in 1944. simongraham (talk) 16:29, 18 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Metalicat

[edit]

This is an interesting read. My comments cover prose plus citation and Manual of Style formatting.

I have also made a number of small copyedits directly (typos, a couple of missing or misplaced commas, two British-English spellings, two hyphenations and a piped link); please revert any you are not happy with.

Thank you. Those look excellent to me. simongraham (talk) 15:29, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

prose points:

  • Lead: the destroyer was sent to Latvia, arrived just after the cessation of that country's war of independence, and returned to reserve soon after. The middle clause does not quite fit. Perhaps "...sent to Latvia, arriving just after...", or split it into two sentences.
    • Fixed.
  • Lead: The vessel was placed back in service in the 1930s, and it helped search for the missing submarines M1 in 1925 and M2 in 1932. The M1 search was in 1925, but the body dates the return to service to a recommissioning on 6 August 1931, so grouping the 1925 search under "the 1930s" reads as a contradiction.
    • Good point. Clarified.
  • Lead: Depth charge throwers replaced the torpedo tubes and all the main armament but the forecastle gun was removed. A little hard to parse. Something like "The torpedo tubes were replaced by depth charge throwers, and all the main armament except the forecastle gun was removed" would be clearer.
    • Amended.
  • Interwar service: the western front. As this is the proper name of the front, should the displayed text be "Western Front"?
    • I guess so.
  • Lead and Second World War: western approaches is lower case in both the lead and the body. If this is the proper name of the sea area, it should be "Western Approaches".
    • Again, I guess so.
  • Second World War: which subsequently called a wolfpack of four other boats. Slightly unclear; if U-47 summoned other submarines, "called in" may read better.
    • Amended.
  • Second World War: the escort groups are styled inconsistently: Fifth Escort Group and Second Escort Group are spelled out, but 8th Escort Group and 21st Escort Group use figures. Should it not be one style throughout?
    • Amended.
  • Second World War: the vessel was one of the popular with serving sailors. A word seems to be missing, probably "more" or "most".
    • True. Amended.

Citations, MoS and accessibility:

  • Burns (1988) and Howse (1993) carry the same Google Books identifier, id=fX2wCwAAQBAJ, although they are different books, so one link is wrong.
    • Yes. Burns was wrong but is right now.
  • {{GS|U-619||2}} has an empty year parameter where the other uses of that template supply a year; worth checking it still links correctly.
    • It does. There was only one U-619 so there is no need for a year.
  • The Times Digital Archive citations omit access-date while the Navy List and convoyweb citations include it; better one way or the other for consistency.
    • Added.

That is all for now. I have not assessed source content or images. Metalicat (talk) 19:34, 18 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@Metalicat: Thank you. These are all very helpful. simongraham (talk) 15:29, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Support on prose, and citation and Manual of Style formatting. Metalicat (talk) 17:33, 22 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Comments Support by A.Cython

[edit]

I am not an expert on ships, so this is from a casual reviewer/reader. Overall, I enjoyed reading about a destroyer developed in the midst of WWI, but it had an active role in WWII. I have some minor comments listed below.

  • The S class were → The S class was or The S class destroyers were a development
    • Fixed.
  • powerful V and W class → powerful V and W classes
    • Fixed.
  • Initially 30 add comma before "30"
    • Added.
  • This reached a peak when the people of Latvia declared independence which, after a war of independence, they achieved on 14 November 1919. I find this sentence rather confusing, perhaps breaking it into two?
    • perhaps some reordering as follows: "which was achieved on 14 November 1919 after a war of independence."
      • Reworded.
  • the destroyer escorted ships carrying the troops that participated in the Normandy landings, but took no part in the landings themselves. I had to reread this sentence again as I got confused on whether the destroyers assisted in the landing or not. Perhaps the second part of the sentence is not needed since it is explicitly stated their role.
    • Removed.
  • In October, the ship was withdrawn start a new paragraph, because you start a new theme, i.e., post active-duty and retirement.
    • Added.
  • It was hoped that keeping the warships together would help them operationally. The statement as presented begs the question. Did this grouping have the desired effects? What do the sources say?
    • They do not explicitly state that it was, but I would imply from the next paragraph that it was not.
  • an attempt to strike at German submarines transiting the gap between Iceland and Scotland Is there a relevant map, I suppose this is optional
    • I do not have one, but
      • Understood
  • increasingly large amount of time → increasingly more time
    • Amended.
  • near Selsey Bill I do not think most non-UK people would know where this is located. It has a wikilink, but I had to jump to its article to figure it out. Perhaps adding "at the English Channel" or something similar.
    • Clarified.
  • recommissioned at Portsmouth it would help the reader to explain what Portsmouth was, i.e., a naval base.
    • Clarified.
  • the steamer into Southampton I assume to its port
    • Indeed. Clarified.
  • Along with others can you specify what "others" mean
    • Absolutely. The list is extensive, so I have just given the number. Please tell me if you would like me to name them.
      • This more than asked, my concern was whether you meant "other destroyers" or "other vessels in the fleet" including battleships. Irrespective of this, you have addressed this concern.
  • convoy wikilink? A.Cython(talk) 00:46, 27 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    • Linked.
@A.Cython: Thank you for this review. Please take a look at my amendments and tell me what you think. simongraham (talk) 14:09, 28 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Simongraham: Many thanks for the changes. You have addressed my comments, so Support from me. A.Cython(talk) 04:06, 29 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Stikkyy

[edit]
  • although in that case the destroyer's presence was insufficient to deter the German submarine U-32 from sinking the liner. I would just say that she failed to prevent U-32 from sinking the liner, as we can't divine U-32's calculations.
    • Amended.
  • Two consecutive sentences that begin with At the same time in the lead.
    • Reworded.
  • dropped from covering twenty convoys in 1942 to nine in 1943 – I don't see this supported in the body, and I can't quite construct the "nine" that is provided.
    • The nine are one escort of Leinster to Iceland, one return, three other single-ship convoys to Iceland, three from Iceland, and WS30, the single convoy to Freetown.
  • one of thirty-three Admiralty S class destroyers ordered by the British Admiralty Redundant?
    • The consensus seems to be that class is termed Admiralty S class and the body responsible for their order is the British Admiralty but I am happy to change it.
  • The design was a development of the R class introduced at the same time as, and as a cheaper and faster alternative to, the V and W classes. – at the same time as is tripping me up, at the same time as the S-class, or at the same time as the V/W-class? I assume, per the lead and cheaper and faster alternative to that this is referring to the R class, but it should be made clear.
    • Good spot. The lead is wrong. The R preceded the others.
  • Two funnels were fitted. – A very lonely sentence.
    • Combined with a previous one.
  • making the vessel very wet needs to be explained for a layperson.
    • Explained.
  • "Training-only director" probably needs to be explained for a layperson.
    • Clarified.
  • shortly before the end of the First World War Is it really "shortly before"? I might be biased as a Yank.
    • Changed.
  • I'm looking at Latvian War of Independence, and I can't make the connection to when the people of Latvia declared independence, which was achieved on 14 November 1919.
    • The date is from th source.
  • Explain to the reader that 50-cm refers to the wavelength rather than the size.
    • Clarified.
  • Alongside Saladin and Shaker – I can't find a HMS Shaker.
    • It's a misspelling.
  • Initially, 30 charges were now carried – This sentence doesn't work, "now" negates "initially".
    • Removed.
  • fitted on a bandstand abaft the middle funnel – I thought there were only two funnels?
    • There are. Amended.
  • which subsequently called in a wolfpack of four other boats on 19 October 1940 – Is the date attached to the attack or the wolfpack?
    • The wolfpack, hence the lack of a comma after boats.
  • Two consecutive sentences that begin with Despite.
    • Reworded
  • Is the big list of convoy pennants necessary?
    • Not necessary but the more notable are wikilinked.
  • It was hoped that keeping the warships together would help them operationally. – Any rationale?
    • The sources are not explicit.
  • After each deployment, when the ship returned to harbour, it was rare that there was not some damage from bad weather which meant that the destroyer spent an increasingly more time in repair rather than service. – Sentence needs to be repaired.
    • Broken up.
  • Another crew member was an American volunteer, Derek Lee, who served as a deck officer with the collateral job of security officer. His role included censoring photographs, for example of the survivors of the merchant ship SS Yorktown that had been sunk by U-619 on 28 September 1942, taken as they climbed aboard the destroyer. – Is "security officer" the term used in the sources? Also, I still don't get what photographs are being censored, and whether the photographs are being taken by the crew or the survivors. Read literally, my first impression was that the survivors of Yorktown were taking pictures of Sardonyx as they were being dragged onboard.
    • The source states "Lieutenant Derek Lee was a deck officer with the collateral job of security officer aboard HMS Sardonyx, another vintage destroyer brought out of the Royal Navy's fleet at the start of World War II. She picked up survivors from Yorktown. Sardonyx continued to scour the sea for further signs of life. Lee censored as "Not for Publication" several photographs taken of the survivors as they climbed aboard his ship."
  • I reworded the WS 30 sentence, still not completely happy with it.
    • I have split it up, which I hope improves it.
  • 8 June means that the troops that Sardonyx escorted were not part of the first wave, clarify.
    • Clarified.

Stikkyy (talk) 23:27, 2 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@Stikkyy: Thank you for your insights. Please take a look at my edits and tell me if there is anything else. simongraham (talk) 15:56, 4 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Is Sea Classics a reliable source? Just browsing through their covers, it doesn't seem very academic. Stikkyy (talk) 23:34, 2 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
It is a popular magazine so not academic. However, it is published by a credible publisher and adds a different perspective to the article, being primarily targeted at a US audience.

Support Stikkyy (talk) 18:03, 4 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

Source spot-checks

[edit]

I checked eight numbered citations against the source material in this revision.

  • Citations 27–28 (Howse, pp. 40 and 43) — not supported as written. The aircraft-detection range is wrong by a factor of ten: Howse, p. 27, gives 2.5 miles, not 25 miles. The relevant information is also on a different page from the one cited. Also, p. 40 describes trials of the named Combined Wireless Rangefinder and Lookout Set on 14 October 1939 as disappointing for surface detection, after which the combined-set proposal was abandoned, but the article conflates the June and October trials and presents them simply as successful.
  • Citation 35 (Howse, p. 79) — incorrect chronology. Howse states that the Type 286M set was fitted at Londonderry in June 1941. So, its placement immediately after the collision of 31 May 1940, with "Soon afterwards, in June", currently places the fitting in June 1940. The corresponding statement in the lead also needs correction.
  • Citation 37 (Convoy HX 79) is verified for Sardonyx's participation, as the database lists Sardonyx as an escort from 20 October 1940.
  • Citation 40 (Arnold Hague Convoy Database) — not supported. I found three discrepancies:
    • SC 69 sailed in February 1942, so it cannot belong to the "next five months" after 27 October 1940. Sardonyx escorted it from 22 to 27 February 1942.
    • So, SL 103 lists Sardonyx as an escort from 30 March to 2 April 1942, maybe you want to add it to the article's 1942 list.
    • I tried a database search for Sardonyx and it produced 26 records dated 1941 and 22 dated 1942, rather than the article's totals of 21 and 20. Although, the nine records for 1943 agree with the article, if some records are intentionally excluded, then the selection criterion needs to be explained and supported, otherwise the body and lead totals will need correction.
  • Citation 48 (Convoy ON 66). The database supports Sardonyx serving as escort from 14 to 16 February 1942, with no loss shown.
  • Citations 56–57 (convoys DS 36 and SD 36) is partly verified but inaccurately worded in the sense that DS 36 reached Iceland on 23 January 1943; SD 36 departed Iceland on 25 January and reached the Clyde on 27 January. Thus the ships began the return voyage two days later, but did not complete it two days later. A precise formulation might be like so "They escorted Leinster to Iceland from 21 to 23 January and back to the Clyde from 25 to 27 January".

Please audit all statements derived from Howse and the Arnold Hague database. Well done. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 11:11, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Herbert and Katherine Jacobs First House

[edit]
Nominator(s): Epicgenius (talk) 19:05, 17 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a house in Madison, Wisconsin, designed by Frank Lloyd Wright. It is among the earliest examples of his Usonian-style houses for middle-class families, of which he designed more than 100 over the years. This house was built for Madison journalist Herbert Jacobs and his family, who lived there less than a decade before moving to another Wright-designed house. The house sticks out from its surroundings, with features such as a facade with boards and battens, a radiant heating system, and a modular floor grid. Many of the design features were widely used in other Usonian houses, and the popularity of the Jacobs House shaped Wright's later career and prompted people across the U.S. to hire him. Part of a UNESCO World Heritage Site, the house is still a private residence today.

This page was promoted to Good Article status last year after a GA review by Chipmunkdavis. After some additional copy edits and expansions, I think it's up to FA quality now, and I look forward to all comments and feedback. Epicgenius (talk) 19:05, 17 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Comments from Noleander

[edit]
  • It is really hard to appreciate the building without a plan (overhead) diagram. Can you create (or have someone create) a plan view? Doesn't need to be precisely to scale. I believe it is okay to create a new plan view provided the new figure is completely redrawn as a schematic or representative plan for illustrative purposes only. In other words: no need to replicate a copyrighted blueprint ... one can simply draw a new diagram from, say, Google Maps aerial view. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikilegal/Pictorial_Representations_Architectural_Works
    • Following up on this: the article (correctly) has descriptions like "the western wing's southern elevation and the northern wing..." - so readers definitely need a plan diagram with compass showing NSEW, so they can relate the body text to the plan
    • Ditto for body text like "... to indicate that the street side was clearly ..." - the plan diagram should indicate which side of the plan is the street side.
    • Ditto for body text like ".. an extension of the bedroom wing's roof ..." - diagram should indicate which wing holds the bedrooms.
      • Noting that Noleander has graciously offered to create a map (below). - EG
  • Light fixture(s) near ceiling: in photo File:Jacobs First House - bedroom 01.jpg there are lights on a pipe near ceiling. I cannot find those described in body text .. am I overlooking it? Are those lights original? or added later? If original, the caption of that photo should mention them since they are peculiar.
    • I think these are later modifications. I haven't been able to find them in any of the usual literature about FLW, so they may not have been part of the original design (or, if they were, they weren't worth mentioning). Even the National Historic Landmark report, which usually describes a building's architecture in great detail (well, at least those from the 21st century do), doesn't mention the lighting bracket on the ceiling of that pic. - EG
  • Not needed: "The Pohle family hosted events such as a lip-reading class at the house." - Not encyclopedic, not helpful to reader, and source is a primary source (about Pohle), not a source about Wright or the house.
    • Agreed, and removed. - EG
  • More precise? "Wright's design eschewed large front windows; instead, the main or western elevation of the facade is a plainly designed sandwich wall."
    • "eschewed" can another word be used? Some readers may not know that word, or may think it means "discouraged" or "downplayed" when in fact it means (here) "deliberately avoided".
    • "... the main or western elevation of the facade is a plainly designed sandwich wall." Not sure what the use of "elevation" and "facade" is trying to convey. (a) What is the facade in this context? Is there a false wood wall fronting a hidden brick wall? If so: is there a gap between them? (b) Would readers get the point better if it was simply "... the main or western elevation is a plainly designed sandwich wall."
      • Essentially, elevation (architecture) is a portion of the facade that faces in a certain direction. So yeah, it is redundant.
  • Sandwich walls "The house's triple-layered sandwich walls consist of a central layer of vertical pine boards wedged between two layers of horizontal boards..."
    • Phrase "sandwich walls" is sometimes in quotes in the article (2 or 3 places) and sometimes not. All uses should have quotes or not. I don't think it would be encyclopedic to use quotes (see WP:SCAREQUOTE: "Quotation marks, when not marking an actual quotation,[d] may be interpreted as "scare quotes", indicating that the writer is distancing themself from the otherwise common interpretation of the quoted expression.").
      • Removed the quotes. - EG
    • I'm not sure if "sandwich wall" is a common phrase in English. I don't recall hearing it before. I see WP article Sandwich panel which is close, but not the same.
      • It is not. In fact, it's one of these phrases that Wright made up specifically for his designs. - EG
    • Consider adding a paragraph or sub-section into Sandwich panel article covering 1930's era sandwich walls, then linking to it?
    • Clarify terminology: "facade" vs outer layer of sandwich wall - the article mentions the "facade" a lot. Is that the same as the outer layer of the sandwich wall? In all uses? Doesn't the article say that some places the facade is brick? But brick is never the outer layer of the sandwich wall, is it?
      • Some of the sandwich walls are located inside. The outer layer of the sandwich wall is better described as the "surface", since it's not synonymous with the facade. - EG
  • Floor heating system: vague? "... the heating system did not provide sufficient heat during the cold weather, so it had to be replaced with a hot-water system" Earlier the floor heating system is described as a "radiant heating" system. But Radiant heating and cooling is a very broad term that encompasses many technologies: electrial; hot-water; sunshine (absorbed in day; released at night) etc. (a) What, exactly, was the technology of the original floor heating design? (b) When the system was replaced with a "hot-water system" was the new system within the floor, or not?
    • I clarified that the first system used steam and the second system used hot water. They both used the same pipes in the floor. - EG
  • ... in progress ... Noleander (talk) 00:02, 18 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    @Noleander, just a quick note regarding the map: Unfortunately I have no idea how to draw floor diagrams (otherwise I would include them in hundreds of articles). But it may be worth asking the Graphics Lab about it. Accessedgrant (Epicgenius mobile alt) (talk) 02:14, 18 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I can draw it if you can give me an external link to a reliable source that shows the floorplan. Noleander (talk) 02:19, 18 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good. I know Storrer, William Allin (1993). The Frank Lloyd Wright Companion. Chicago: University of Chicago Press. ISBN 978-0-226-77624-8. has a floor plan; I just need to see if it's digitized somewhere. Accessedgrant (Epicgenius mobile alt) (talk) 02:41, 18 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
That book is online in Internet Archive at https://archive.org/details/franklloydwright0000stor.
The Jacobs First house is on page 242 at https://archive.org/details/franklloydwright0000stor/page/242
I can take it from here. Noleander (talk) 03:04, 18 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the initial comments Noleander. I replied to three of them, but will continue later (it's getting late for me). Epicgenius (talk) 04:59, 18 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Epicgenius - I created an SVG image and uploaded it to commons. I inserted it into the article in the Architecture section, but - of course - you can move it whereever you want. This is a first draft image .. I still have some tweaking to do, but I put it in early so other reviewers could reference it. Let me know if there are any specific changes you want. Noleander (talk) 14:05, 18 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Noleander, I just had a first look. Thank you very much for doing this. At first glance, it looks good; certainly matches up with other floor plans I've seen. – Epicgenius (talk) 14:08, 18 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for those other URLs ... they solve the mystery of how the outside walkway wraps around the lower-left corner between the entryway and carport. I'll incorporate that clarification within the next day or two. Noleander (talk) 14:14, 18 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Epicgenius - I updated the floorplan image of the house, and it is now fairly accurate. I'm not planning any more updates. If you want any specific changes, let me know (or, you can use Inkscape app to update the SVG file). If you have any future FAC nominations that need a floorplan diagram, I can draw it. Noleander (talk) 22:27, 19 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Noleander, thanks, I appreciate it. – Epicgenius (talk) 22:57, 19 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lead: Define? "... it was completed in 1937 and is cited as Wright's first Usonian home." Here, in the 2nd sentence of the article, 99.9% of readers will have no idea what "Usonian" means. So can the article here either (a) parenthetically define Usonian; or (b) replace "Usonion" with "low-cost home" or similar.
    • Usonian is a style, so I've clarified that. People wanting further information could click on the link or read further. - EG
  • Lead: Positive or negative? "When the house was finished, observers commented on its materials, proportions, and relationship to the surrounding landscape." Sentence is not too useful without a word like "favorably" or "admired" or "applauded" etc.
    • The commentary was more mixed than that (it was only later that the design was largely praised). I've clarified this.
  • Better wording? "... during the cold weather, so hot water began to be used instead." The 2nd half "... so hot water began to be used instead" sounds clunky. Maybe " ... so they converted the system to circulate hot water instead." or similar?
    • Done. - EG
  • Clarify "The house lacked screens to protect against summer heat..." A bit confusing. If that is referring to normal mesh window screens? If so, "protect against heat" is not the best wording ... consider " ... to enable ventilation in the summer" or ".. guard against insects when the windows were opened" etc. Or, if it is not referring to normal mesh, then details are needed.
    • Clarified. Yes, it is referring to window screens, but the house overheating during the summer was the specific complaint. - EG
  • Trim "Max W. Pohle, a dentist, had acquired the property by the late 1940s." Can "had" be eliminated?
    • Done. - EG
  • External link has URL named "Official website" which links to https://usonia1.com/ Even after clicking on that link, it is not clear who the owner/publisher of that website is. Is it UNESCO (big logo on that page)? Some F. L. Wright-related organization/trust? or the current homeowners? Readers will want some clue about who the publisher/author is of the website before clicking on the link. Can some words be added to the external link text to let readers know who the publisher/author is?
    • The website is actually run by James Dennis, the homeowner. He put his email and address (which to be fair is this house's address) in the contact section. - EG
  • Detail: "The house's floor plan is arranged around a 2-by-4-foot (0.61 by 1.22 m) grid ...." Consider adding detail that the concrete slab actually was poured with deep slots/joints on that 2x4 grid. And perhaps clarify that most of the house's walls were exactly on those joints.
    • Done. - EG
  • Floor coverings? The article says the kitchen floor was covered in wood; but I don't see what the rest of the house had. A later owner is ridiculed for covering the floors in carpeting. I guess that means the non-kitchen parts of the house were plain concrete? Maybe with area rugs? That makes sense, since the effectiveness of the in-floor heating would be diminished if there was a layer over the concrete. In any case, the article should say what the flooring of the non-kitchen rooms was.
    • The floor is indeed made of concrete. Wood is used in the kitchen as a surface finish, but the rest of the concrete floor slab is unfinished (i.e. the slab is the floor itself). I've made this a bit more clear. - EG
  • Ambiguous "Wright continued to refine the house's architectural features in his later work, devoting his later career to designing Usonian houses." A fast reader (or ESL) might wonder if that means Wright changed the Jacobs 1st house "later". Consider rewording to make it more clear e.g. "Wright continued to refine features from the house when using them in his later works ..." or similar.
    • Clarified. - EG
  • Ambiguous "Some of the house's architectural features were popularized after the house's completion." Not clear if that means the Jacob's 1st house specifically was popularized; or if the features were popularized in a general sense (without reference to the Jacob's house). I'm guessing the latter? Consider something like "Some of the features from the house were popularized when Wright reused them in his later works." or "Wright reused some architectural features from the house in his later works ... " etc
    • Clarified. Yes, the specific features were popularized - EG
  • Terminology: "thick" vs "wide" "that each board is 9.5 inches (240 mm) thick and that each batten is 3.25 inches (83 mm) thick ..." In the US lumber terms are long, wide, thick (from longest to shortest dimension) so I'm pretty sure "wide" should be used in this context.
    • Here, I used "high" because these boards and battens are laid horizontally. The width (the intermediate dimension) is the up-down dimension (i.e. height), while the length is the left-right dimension. - EG
  • Should supply page number (p=851) for chapter/entry within source: McCarter, Robert (2001). "Wright, Frank Lloyd". In Boyer, Paul S. (ed.). The Oxford Companion to United States History. Oxford: Oxford University Press.
    • Done. - EG
  • Uniformity of source/citation formatting? City/location is supplied for only about half the books. Inconsistent even within the same publisher:
    • The Frank Lloyd Wright Companion. Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
    • Frank Lloyd Wright: A Biography. University of Chicago Press.
    • Done. - EG
  • That's all. Leaning support. Let me know when you've considered the above items. Great article! Noleander (talk) 02:29, 20 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Bgsu98 (6/18/26)

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Note: This was originally posted as a drive-by comment: Wright regarded thought the term "United States" primarily refereed to a political union… —> I have read this sentence four times, and still can’t parse the beginning. Bgsu98 (Talk) 19:22, 17 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@Bgsu98, that sentence is in the Usonia article, not here. I've fixed it. I'll unlink other unnecessary links in my nom statement to prevent confusion. – Epicgenius (talk) 20:24, 17 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Lead
  • No issues.
Site
  • No issues.
History
  • "Usonian houses tended to have open plans, geometric floor grids, in-floor heating, and a carport, and they lacked a garage or basement..."
  • "Herb was 33 years old and just beginning his career."[16][33] --> This sentence really seems inconsequential to the topic.
  • "The family had a modest budget of $5,000 (equivalent to $89,000 in 2024)[21][22][34] or $5,500 (equivalent to $97,000 in 2024) for their new house" --> I would better combine these two: "The family had a modest budget $5,000 to $5,500 for their new house"
  • "Herb reflected that he and Katherine had initially wanted a white-brick house in the Dutch Colonial Revival style."[22] --> Again, inconsequential detail.
  • What is a "sandwich wall"?
  • The family would use only the northern portion of the two lots and would be able to sell off the southernmost 55 feet (17 m) of the site, adjoining a street corner, if they wished. --> Did they, or didn't they?
  • Note b is just sort of sitting there out of place.
  • "and bequeathed his estate to his wife Ruth (with whom he jointly owned the Toepfer Avenue house) and his three sisters." --> Recommend replacing the parentheses with commas.
  • "By the late 1950s, a man named Leonard E. Sweet was recorded as living in the house."
  • "The house was also being included in walking tours of historic Madison buildings by the late 1960s."
Architecture
  • No issues.
Impact
  • No issues.

User:Epicgenius: Is there an image you Frank Lloyd Wright you could add to the article? The article is very well-written, as you can see from the small amount of comments I have above. Please let me know when you've had a chance to examine my comments. Bgsu98 (Talk) 17:26, 18 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@Bgsu98 Thanks, I appreciate it. I'll look at these in the next few days. As for an image of Wright, File:Frank Lloyd Wright LC-USZ62-36384.jpg depicts him in 1926, a decade before this house was constructed (he was already in his late 50s back then). File:Frank Lloyd Wright portrait.jpg depicts him when he was much older, in his 80s. This house has enough images that an image of Wright is probably not necessary to understand the subject, but I can take a look into adding one of these images. – Epicgenius (talk) 18:01, 18 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Bgsu98, thanks again. I've resolved all of these except for the Dutch Colonial Revival detail, which I think gives a little context to the fact that they almost didn't have Wright design this house. For the Wright photo, do you have a recommendation for which image to use or where the image should go? – Epicgenius (talk) 21:14, 18 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
User:Epicgenius: I would go ahead and use the picture that's at the top of the Frank Lloyd Wright article. He is such a central presence in this article – and the history of the this house – that leaving him out would seem like a glaring omission. He is much more tied to the story of this house than your usual architect. As far as where in the article, I'll let you decide, but I would suggest closer to the beginning that not.
That sentence about the Dutch Colonial house still sticks out. Looking at the paragraph, you could integrate it a little further back – for example, "The couple wanted to develop a residence where they could live with their newborn daughter, and although they initially wanted a traditional Dutch Colonial Revival house, they could not afford a grand house." You then go on to talk about the finances, which carries over into the next paragraph. As it is now, you start with the finances, then mention a Dutch Colonial house, then back to finances.
"The family would use only the northern portion of the two lots, giving them the option to sell off the southernmost 55 feet (17 m) of the site, adjoining a street corner." Again, did they or didn't they? You can't use "would" to narrate an event in the past. If yes, then it should be "The family only used the northern portion of the two lots, giving them the option to sell off the southernmost 55 feet (17 m) of the site, which adjoined a street corner." Bgsu98 (Talk) 23:02, 18 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good, I've rearranged the sentences a bit and added an image of Wright near the beginning. – Epicgenius (talk) 23:08, 18 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I think my third paragraph right above your response was added mid-edit. Bgsu98 (Talk) 23:10, 18 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I must have missed that. Yes, I meant "the family used only the northern portion..." – Epicgenius (talk) 23:11, 18 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

MSincccc

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Generalissima

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I'll do a source review.

  • Article uses a lot of good academic architectural sources, alongside suitable newspaper coverage.
  • Dates are consistently formatted.
  • Good use of newspaper.com clippings.
  • You're a bit inconsistent about linking publishers - you link the National Park Service for the NRHP listings, but not for any of the other sources.
  • Newspaper headlines should either be consistently sentence case or consistently title case.
  • One book has an OCLC, but the others don't; be consistent on whether to include that.

@Epicgenius: All in all pretty minor issues. Give me a ping when you're ready! Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 12:40, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks G. I just got back from Wikimania, so am a bit tired, but will look at this within the next few days. – Epicgenius (talk) 00:01, 27 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Ivan the Terrible (1945 film)

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Nominator(s): Jaguarnik (talk) 15:46, 17 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about... The last (incomplete) film of Soviet director Sergei Eisenstein. A biopic of Ivan the Terrible that was comissioned in 1941 on the behalf of Stalin but delayed due to the invasion of the USSR that year, the film had a troubled production and a troubled history. Part I released in 1945 and received the prestigious Stalin Prize. Part II, on the other hand, displeased Stalin and was banned in 1946, to be released only in 1958, years after the deaths of Stalin and Eisenstein. A planned third part was never completed. It's recognized by many as a great film, although not without some qualifications: the critic Roger Ebert called it a "Great" movie that had not gone through the stage of being a "good" movie.

I brought this article to Good Article status in 2024. I also brought this to a peer review and to FAC last year. Unfortunately I was not able to bring the FAC to completion then. Since then I've addressed the remaining outstanding comments from the previous nomination and I'm hoping this year the nomination goes smoothly. Interesting fact: if this nomination is successful, Ivan the Terrible would be the first Russian-language film to have a featured article on the English Wikipedia since Bezhin Meadow in 2008 (coincidentally also directed by Eisenstein). Jaguarnik (talk) 15:46, 17 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

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  • File:Ivan_the_Terrible,_Part_I_(1944)_by_Sergei_Eisenstein.webm: could you elaborate on why this is believed to be PD? This description would seem to suggest the copyright would have been extended. Ditto the stills from the film.
    • I'm afraid I don't quite follow. What you have linked says that works made by individuals who died before 1952 are in the public domain in Russia. The author (Eisenstein) died before 1952, making his works public domain in Russia. If I am not mistaken, Part I specifically (unclear about Part II) should be in public domain in the US because it was in public domain in Russia on the URAA date ("The work is non-amateur cinema or television film (or shot, or fragment from it), which was first shown between January 1, 1929 and January 1, 1946." Part I premiered in 1945.). I have been careful to only use stills from Part I.
      • I'm referring specifically to the note at the bottom of the section: "Before 2008 Russian copyright legislation was based on the Law on Copyright and Neighbouring Rights (1993)[4] and copyright term was 50(54) years. In 2004 copyright term was extended to 70(74) years non-retroactively, and then in 2008 70(74) years term became retroactive (if 50 years term had not been expired till January 1, 1993)." Eisenstein died in 1948, so copyright would not have expired before 1993, and therefore this wording suggests the term would have been extended. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:30, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
        • I don't have experience with this so I do need to ask a few questions.
          1) Do I understand the retroactive copyright correctly as meaning that it counts from 74 years from Eisenstein's death? If so, then Eisenstein's works entered public domain in Russia in 2022. (Although I guess that's not relevant for the US status.)
          2) Would the 2008 Russian law affect the URAA status? In 1996 it was public domain in Russia and therefore it was in public domain in the US as well (non-amateur cinema or television film (or shot, or fragment from it), which was first shown between January 1, 1929 and January 1, 1946.") Would the status in the US change based on the Russian law? Jaguarnik (talk) 09:29, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Sergei_Eisenstein_02.jpg: why is the tagging Russian when the given source is Dutch?
    • I'm not certain this is a Dutch photo, just stored in a Dutch archive, but because the origins of the photo are obscure, I would not know. The autotranslate tells me that the archive considers the photo to not be under copyright/royalty-free. I could replace the photo with a different photo of Eisenstein if this photo is problematic to use. I've switched the license per Howardcorn33's comment.
  • File:Queen_Elizabeth_and_the_young_Blount.jpg: what is the status of this work in the US? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:24, 18 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    • Per the license, "The official position taken by the Wikimedia Foundation is that "faithful reproductions of two-dimensional public domain works of art are public domain". This photographic reproduction is therefore also considered to be in the public domain in the United States." The drawing itself is in public domain in Russia, because works made by individuals who died before 1952 are in the public domain.
Comment by Howardcorn33
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Support by Jon698

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Oooh, I would love to comment on this one. I once owned it on VHS. Jon698 (talk) 04:28, 18 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

  • 1. "falsely accused of killing a gentile boy" -> Could Gentile be wikilinked
    • Done
  • 2. "behalf a film about the Russian tsar Ivan IV" -> Optional stylistic choice, wikilink Ivan the Terrible as this is his first mention outside of the lede and plot
    • Done
  • 3. "Stalin admired Ivan IV" + "Eisenstein's Alexander Nevsky, to play Ivan IV" + "According to the story, Ivan IV invited Fyodorov-Chelyadnin" + "While Soviet historians ignored religion in the life of Ivan IV or, in the case of Robert Wipper, describe the Church as an ally of Ivan IV" + "criticizing the characterization of Ivan IV" + "and the "conspicuously totalitarian" depiction of Ivan IV." -> Remove regnal number as is done for all of the other mentions of Ivan in the article. Keep the first use of Ivan IV in "who instead commissioned on Stalin's behalf a film about the Russian tsar Ivan IV" though.
    • Done
  • 4. "Casting for the film began in early 1942. Eisenstein invited Nikolay Cherkasov," -> Wikilink Nikolay Cherkasov as this is his first prose mention
    • Done
  • 5. "Mikhail Zharov, who had wanted to perform the role of Kurbsky, was instead offered the role of Malyuta. Mikhail Nazvanov was cast as Kurbsky in the summer of 1942." -> Wikilink Mikhail Zharov and Mikhail Nazvanov as this is their first prose mention. Their other mentions are only in the cast list or image captions
    • Done
  • 6. "played the role of Ivan's mother, Elena Glinskaya" -> Wikilink Elena Glinskaya as this is her first prose mention
    • Done
  • 7. "Eisenstein wanted his colleague, director Vsevolod Pudovkin," -> Change to "Eisenstein wanted his colleague Pudovkin," as Pudovkin has already been established as a director in paragraph two of the Development section
    • Done
  • 8. "Eisenstein began to consider Mikhail Kuznetsov for the role of Fyodor Basmanov" -> Wikilink Mikhail Kuznetsov and Fyodor Basmanov
    • Done for Kuznetsov but not Basmanov, because it is highlighted as a duplicate link (for whatever reason)
  • 9. "For the role of Vladimir Staritsky," -> Wikilink Vladimir of Staritsa
    • Not done, it is highlighted as a duplicate link
  • 10. "Therefore, Pavel Kadochnikov," -> Wikilink Pavel Kadochnikov
    • Done
  • 11. "He was also considered for the role of King Sigismund." -> Wikilink Sigismund II Augustus
    • Not done, it is highlighted as a duplicate link
  • 12. "The score for the films was" -> Change was to were
    • Not done, score is singular and "The score were composed" seems gramatically incorrect. I did change "films" to "film" however, it is one film project.
  • 13. This is a general comment across the article. Whenever a film is mentioned you should include (year of release) afterwards. See Aliens (film), The Shawshank Redemption, and Raiders of the Lost Ark
    • Added dates for Mashenka, Defense of Tsaritsyn, Battleship Potemkin and Bicycle Thieves, I will go back and add dates for other films in the article.
      • All films mentioned in the article have a date now. If I've missed any, please let me know.
  • 14. "and began to consider hiring him" -> Change to "and considered hiring him"
    • Done
  • 15. "Most of the production was shot in Kazakhstan" -> wikilink Kazakh Soviet Socialist Republic
    • Done
  • 16. You should change "writes" to "wrote" as some of the subjects are dead or it will future proof it for when they die.
    • Changed instances of writes and other similar words to wrote
  • 17. "The film also meant to show Estonians and Latvians fighting" -> wikilink Estonians and Latvians
    • Done
  • 18. "describe the Church as an ally of Ivan, Eisenstein depicts the church as traitorous" -> Church should either be capitalized or uncapitalized
    • Capitalized
  • Will continue with Release section
  • "and more emphasis on Ivan's accomplishments as Tsar." -> Make Tsar lowercase
    • Done.
  • This is just a stylistic choice. Could "Part I was screened for Stalin in December 1944 and premiered in Moscow on 16 January 1945." be the start of a new paragraph. The first paragraph would focus on the negative feedback from the Committee on Cinema Affairs while the second paragraph would focus on Stalin's support for it and the awards for the film.
    • That works. It might also be easier for readers to read two smaller paragraphs, rather than one large paragraph.
  • "Afterwards, despite receiving permission to revise Part II and begin work on Part III, Eisenstein did not work further on the film." -> Could this be rephrased to " Eisenstein did not work further on the film despite receiving permission to revise Part II and begin work on Part III." so that it flows more naturally
    • Done
  • "A year later, on the night of 10–11 February 1948, he died of a heart attack." -> Rephrase to "Eisenstein died of a heart attack on the night of 10–11 February 1948."
    • Done
  • "called the first part a "masterpiece of cinematographic art"" -> Change "first part" to "Part I" for consistency
    • Oh, I had planned to change that, but forgot. Done.
  • "Charlie Chaplin in 1946 called Part I "the greatest historic film that has ever been made"" -> Can this be the start of a new paragraph as this sentence and the following are the opinions of filmmakers while the previous ones are from critics
    • Done
  • Those are all of my comments

Support by Paleface Jack

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Support: I have been watching this article for a while and have recently looked it over. Apart from minor copy editing issues, the article meets FA standards. Great job. Paleface Jack (talk) 20:18, 18 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Support by ErnestKrause

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Looks like an interesting nomination which I'll try to comment on during the next few days. Some items to get things started:

(1) The part 2 summary seems to suggest that much of the footage for part 3 was already prepared and ready for editing; how much is known about the details of what was left on the cutting room floor. How much unused footage remained after part 2 was released. Was it 10 minutes of used film, 20 minutes of unused film clips, or 30 minutes of unused film clips?

There are some screen tests remaining for Part III, maybe some footage, however filming was not complete. From what I remember sources don't comment on how much footage exactly was cut from the completed film, only that certain scenes had to be removed (which I've mentioned).
The deleted scenes which survive are included in the Criterion home release as special features. ErnestKrause (talk) 20:14, 19 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
One of the Neuberger sources does indeed confirm that some footage of Part III survives (although other footage was destroyed). I have added a clarification to the article.Jaguarnik (talk) 22:27, 19 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Some of the Ivan 3 footage and related: [6] and here [7]. ErnestKrause (talk) 02:12, 20 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

(2) The article mentions that complete film script was available. Was the 'complete' film script for part 1 only or for parts 1 and 2 and 3?

A published screenplay exists for all three parts, however the completed film departs in significant ways from the screenplay.

(3) Home media. This does not seem to be covered in the article. Multiple countries has done multiple editions for it. Has Criterion done a version of it? Have they done a Blu-ray version or 4K version? Not to mention the special features and all of the commentaries about the film which have been done over the years...

None of my sources comment on home media versions, and I strive only to use secondary sources. I have found that Criterion has done a version of it. There is also a Blu-ray version, and a VHS version, as Jon698 commented. However, I see in featured articles about films, such as Raiders of the Lost Ark and Fight Club, that they use secondary sources to comment on home media (and they have quite extensive sections covering the home media!). For this reason I did not add a home media section, as there is very little coverage and I did not think it would enrich the article.
My understanding here is that interviews from the special features on Criterion releases may be quoted on Wikipedia articles provided that the sources are clearly cited and fully identified. Here is the description from the Criterion collection of contents included which normally ought not to be overlooked: "Special features: disc 1: multimedia esay by Joan Neuberger; deleted scenes; drawings and production stills. Disc 2: multimedia essay on Eisenstein's visual vocabulary by Yuri Tsivian; new English subtitle translation." ErnestKrause (talk) 20:14, 19 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately I don't have access to these interviews, so there is no way for me to cite them. Jaguarnik (talk) 20:51, 19 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure if you are editing from USA or abroad, though its worth stating that the Criterion edition of this film is frequently available in local public libraries for free, or, they can often readily get a copy through inter-library loans for you at little or no cost. Here is the Neuberger essay: [8]. Here is a clip from Bordwell from the Criterion edition: [9]. Last half of this Neuberger interview is on Ivan here: [10]. ErnestKrause (talk) 02:09, 20 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the sources. I've seen the Neuberger essay. Everything written in that essay is explored in more depth in the Neuberger book This Thing of Darkness, so I haven't used it. The Criterion clip also doesn't state much of anything that isn't in the article already. The interview from Neuberger did have a fact also mentioned in This Thing of Darkness, so I've added it. Jaguarnik (talk) 08:45, 20 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure there is a way around a Home media section needing to be added to the article. See multiple Russian films on Wikipedia for examples: Andrei Rublev, Dersu Uzala, etc. Aside from the Criterion edition of Ivan, here is another one: "Ivan Groznyĭ (Motion picture). Part 1. / Иван Грозный (Motion picture). Part 1. Publisher, Date: Chatsworth, California : Image Entertainment, [1998], ©1998". Part 2 was released from the same publisher in the same year. A Home media section is needed in the article; there have been multiple releases. ErnestKrause (talk) 01:39, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Respectfully, I don't agree that it's a barrier to featured article status. Certain other featured film articles also do not have a home media section: The Cat and the Canary (1927 film), Persuasion (1995 film), Into Temptation (film) (2009), Greed (1924 film). I've also looked at the Andrei Rublev home media section and found it lacking, as it uses primary sources and it is preferred to use secondary sources.
However, I have found two articles from Cinéaste and Video Store Magazine covering the Criterion release on DVD. This is not enough for its own home media section, but I did combine it with the 2015 restoration as a section called "Other releases". Hopefully this is an OK compromise. Jaguarnik (talk) 17:12, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like a good idea and the two sources you find are useful. Try to bring it into the article once you can pull the prose together. ErnestKrause (talk) 19:12, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Added the prose and sources into the article. Let me know if it seems OK. Jaguarnik (talk) 19:51, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

(4) The legacy of the film. It seems that major film directors have been influenced by the film and they have given interviews adn commentaries about it. Who are they and how extensive were their comments and interviews? What about other films that have picked up on the Tsar Ivan theme(s). It seems that there have even been comedic versions made indicating its very broad appeal at all cultural levels; isn't there a film with Ben Stiller having a confrontation with Ivan somewhere?

I've looked for sources covering the influence of Eisenstein's Ivan the Terrible, but unfortunately there aren't really any sources covering the cultural impact/influence of the film. The few sources I found mention influence in passing and do not go into deeper detail. The directors' names are already in the article and they don't really go into depth on the influence that the film had on them, with the exception of mentioning that Tarkovsky and Askoldov's films have a few sequences that may reference Eisenstein's film. (There's also an interesting anecdote from former Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams that Ivan the Terrible inspired his interest in Russia, but I couldn't find a way to include it in the article.) I'm afraid I don't know the Ben Stiller film you mention, but Ivan the Terrible by himself is a well-known historical figure and it's possible Eisenstein's film didn't have any influence on that film + any other films with Ivan.
Scorsese and other seem to have done interviews; more later in the week-end perhaps. You may get a jolt if you can watch the clip from Ben Stiller in his Night at the Museum: Battle of the Smithsonian, with special note for the scene when Ivan considers making a name change for himself among his fellow conspirators. ErnestKrause (talk) 20:14, 19 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
From what I remember, Scorcese said that he's inspired by Eisenstein's theories, but never mentions Ivan specifically.Jaguarnik (talk) 20:58, 19 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Scorsese writes the foreword to this 2017 book title Eisenstein on Paper here: [11]. ErnestKrause (talk) 02:31, 20 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
From what I can tell in that foreword Scorsese does not directly mention Ivan the Terrible, only that Eisenstein himself was one of the great filmmakers. Jaguarnik (talk) 08:53, 20 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to check Orson Welles and S. Zizek on this question of influences as well. ErnestKrause (talk) 19:12, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently Welles was cold towards the film. I haven't been able to access the full review from Welles, but in his review for the film he wrote "What's wrong with the film, when it's wrong, is what goes sour in the work of any artist whose bent is for eloquence. The Tsar's beard, for instance, cutting like a mighty sickle through the hammer blows of the drama, isn't nearly as entertaining to the audience as it was to the director." Eisenstein was apparently quite offended by the review and wrote to him in response "Although I had an opportunity not to enjoy your nasty and somewhat “Kane”ish (and I read it: “Cain”ish) survey of the first part of “Ivan the Terrible,” I still bear the warmest sympathy towards your "citizen"... I just completed the shooting of part two of "Ivan the Terrible" — which will give you another opportunity for some lousy scribbling." (Sergei Kapterev, Sergei Eisenstein's letters to Hollywood film-makers) I didn't include it, because I don't have full access to the review and I felt that quoting every single individual's opinion on the film would be unnecessary.
I did, however, manage to find that Peter Greenaway and Volker Schlöndorff, both acclaimed directors in their own right, listed it in their top 10 films of all time, so I added that to the article. Jaguarnik (talk) 19:49, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Just checked Zizek. Apparently in 2002 for Sight and Sound he named Ivan the Terrible as one of his top ten films of all time. However, I do not know if his inclusion in the article will enrich it, as he is neither a director nor a film critic. I do not think it is a good idea to list every single famous person who likes Ivan the Terrible (for example, I did not list the former Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, even though he also likes the film). But I will wait for your opinion.Jaguarnik (talk) 20:18, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Zizek is considered by quite a few film scholars to be the foremost living Lacanian film critic and a professor of philosophy. His opinions are notable for film theory. Here is a link you might like to look at which mentions Ivan as a top 3 film [12]. Interestingly, it looks like the Wikipedia article for Zizek does not mention Ivan; possibly they are using a different year for the Sight and Sound lists, which should be updated. Zizek has written 2-3 books (for example here [13]) about film theory and I'm thinking that it might be possible to find a chapter by him where he discusses Ivan. Separately, you might find useful this link useful about the ties to Stalin here: [14]. Clicking the 'read sample' tab on that book link will allow you to see the Intro and the interesting TOC. Separately again, the Welles-Eisenstein exchange you present above is remarkable; could you put it into a short form to be placed in the article (how many people know that Welles had an exchange of opinion with Eisenstein on Ivan). More later. ErnestKrause (talk) 12:33, 22 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I can't really say that Welles had an exchange of opinion with Eisenstein on Ivan, more that Eisenstein wrote a letter to Welles (the article doesn't indicate whether there was a response or not).
I've searched for more analysis from Zizek of Ivan the Terrible but my access to the sources from Zizek are limited, I'm afraid. I will add him as an admirer of Ivan to the article.
I did read the chapter from Stalinism and Soviet Cinema but as I've said below, the source restates most of what is already in the article.Jaguarnik (talk) 13:33, 22 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

(5) Your citations seem thorough and I'm wanting to ask if you have been using Google translators for 'reading' the Russian books and citations about this film that are in the references section?

Russian is my native language, so I read them myself. When using direct (translated) quotations, I leave the original quote in the citation for verification. If any questions arise here about content from the Russian sources, I can provide specific pages and the Russian text. Jaguarnik (talk) 19:42, 19 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
This is Ivan in pop culture at the level of the comedic: [15]. ErnestKrause (talk) 02:37, 20 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

That should get things started. ErnestKrause (talk) 18:19, 19 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

From the technical literature, mostly available on-line:

(1) A Comparative Study of the Coronation Sequence in Eisenstein's Ivan the Terrible and the Semiotics of Pier Wollen and Roland Barthes, IJASS JOURNAL, 2024.

(2) L. Kozlov, The Artist and the Shadow of Ivan [w:] Stalinism and Soviet Cinema, eds. R. Taylor, D.W. Spring, London–New York 1993, s. 110.

(3) Kevin Platt. “Allegories of Stalinist Historiography: Eisenstein’s Ivan the Terrible.” Ab Imperio. No. 4 (2007). 293-322.

(4) Roundtable Discussion: This Thing of Darkness: Eisenstein's Ivan the Terrible in Stalin's Russia by Joan Neuberger (Ithaca: Cornell UP, 2019). David Brandenberger. Новейшая история России [Modern Russian History], 2021.

(5) Eisenstein’s Ivan the Terrible, Indeterminacy, and the Hermeneutics of Suspicion, Kevin M. F. Platt, 2021.

(6) Eisenstein’s Ivan the Terrible and the History of Mentalités, Karen Petrone, Modern History of Russia, 2021.

There may be some duplication with your sources; let me know if the links are found from your site. ErnestKrause (talk) 19:12, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

I will review these sources in the coming days. I did look at #4 and #6, but it is just a review of Neuberger's monograph and doesn't offer any new information, so I have not included it in the article. Jaguarnik (talk) 19:29, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Looked at #3. It has some interesting things that I've added to the article. I may add some more from it. #5 has the same problem as 4 and 6, being simply a review of Neuberger's monograph rather than an analysis of the film itself. Jaguarnik (talk) 22:56, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I am skeptical of #1 because there are some significant errors in the text, for instance "Ivan the Terrible is a two-part epic biographical-style film, with the first part released in 1943... The second part of the film was shelved until 1985 and not allowed to be screened". The article does mention that Barthes used Ivan to illustrate one of his theories, which is interesting, but there's very little helpful information I got from the article. #2 is a fine source, but it mostly restates information which is already in the article. There is a quote from Mikhail Kuznetsov that I find interesting, which I might add in. Jaguarnik (talk) 23:40, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Part two
[edit]

Yes, add the Kuznetsov material for more coverage of sources in the article. The connection of Stalin as being personified in Ivan I think needs to go into the lede, either first or second paragraph. If that's how critics have interpreted the film, then it needs to be made apparent and prominent. If Russian is your native language, then your prose in English is good; I'm sort of assuming you did your college studies in an English language college. I'm somewhat surprized that no-one in the Russian film school, especially after the end of the USSR, did not take up the project of finishing Part 3, or considered doing a remake. Separately, the Welles review followed by Eisenstein's response is notable; if Welles disliked the film and Eisenstein defended it then this should be in the article. Did Eisenstein do a review of Citizen Kane; was the film of any merit to him? ErnestKrause (talk) 15:45, 23 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Added the Kuznetsov material. I will add the rest in the coming days. Jaguarnik (talk) 17:33, 23 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Increase size of the Repin image a little, since the details are not apparent. Also, for the sources, the title formats all need to be in either prose format or Upper case format, one or the other, and not mixed formats. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:52, 23 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

I assume that you mean that all titles should either be uppercase or lowercase? It should be fixed now. The image has also been enlarged. Jaguarnik (talk) 17:38, 23 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Its still in mixed formats. For example, your first cite gives the title in prose format, "Bergan, Ronald (1999). Eisenstein: a life in conflict. Woodstock, N.Y: Overlook Press. ISBN 978-0-87951-924-7. Retrieved 16 September 2024." Your second cite gives the title in Upper case format: "(2012). "Sergei Eisenstein's Ivan the Terrible and the Renaissance: An Example of Stalinist Cosmopolitanism?" All the cites need to be in one format or the other, your choice, though you cannot mix it up as currently is being done. ErnestKrause (talk) 19:33, 23 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Should be fixed now. Please let me know if I've misunderstood or missed anything, I will fix it. Jaguarnik (talk) 13:03, 24 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

From Citizen Kane there is a passage and footnote which state: "Welles was influenced by the editing theories of Sergei Eisenstein by using jarring cuts that caused "sudden graphic or associative contrasts", such as the cut from Kane's deathbed to the beginning of the News on the March sequence and a sudden shot of a shrieking cockatoo at the beginning of Raymond's flashback". ErnestKrause (talk) 16:20, 23 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Citizen Kane was released in 1941, before Ivan the Terrible was ever filmed. Although it's possible that Ivan influenced Welles in other ways, but I don't have a source for it. Jaguarnik (talk) 17:38, 23 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I'm asking the simpler question: Did Eisenstein even write comments about Citizen Kane when he saw it? Separately, did you look up the comment and citation on the 'shrieking cockatoo' above? ErnestKrause (talk) 19:33, 23 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
The lede should include a comment in the first or second paragraph that Stalin was seen as a model for Ivan in the film. ErnestKrause (talk) 19:38, 23 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I've found no reviews nor comments from Eisenstein about Citizen Kane, other than in the letter he wrote to Welles. I did look up the comment and citation — "He also borrowed from the Soviet montage style of Sergei Eisenstein. Eisenstein...[frquently used] shock cuts created by sudden graphic or associative contrasts. Welles uses these effects sparingly, but effectively."
I've added the comparison of Stalin to Ivan to the lede, however I added it in the 3rd paragraph, as the 3rd paragraph is about the analysis and critical reception of the film, so it seems to me that it was the more fitting place for the comparison. Jaguarnik (talk) 13:33, 24 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Good of you to stick with the article; I'm thinking that your efforts here might be useful for the FAC coordinators when they do their look-through of the nomination. I'm also thinking that you already know that I've been leaning towards supporting here and that is the case. You've done a nice effort here on behalf of Eisenstein and I'm now in Support of this nomination. Good going. ErnestKrause (talk) 01:24, 25 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! I appreciate your input.Jaguarnik (talk) 16:18, 25 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

[edit]

"Cronin, Paul (2014). Werner Herzog — A Guide for the Perplexed. Conversations with Paul Cronin. Faber & Faber." is a bit sparse - what is this? Sight and Sound is not consistently formatted, and neither are British Film Institute links. What makes Исскуство and Алетейя reliable sources? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:21, 5 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Искусcтво and Алетейя are the publishers. Iskusstvo was one of the largest Soviet publishers, specializing in the humanitarian disciplines whereas Aleteya is a newer publisher (established 1992) that also specializes in the humanitarian disciplines. I have linked to Iskusstvo Publishing House. however, I can't link Aleteya on the English Wikipedia because it doesn't have an English wiki page. However, I don't quite understand why the publishers are what determine reliability here, when Neya Zorkaya and Viktor Shklovsky are the sources/writers and they are reliable sources + specialists in their field.
The Herzog source is a book with interviews from Herzog. Faber & Faber is the publisher. I will link it. I have also added an archive.org link for verifiability and an ISBN. Is there anything else that should be added here?
As for the Sight and Sound formatting, it is because some of the Sight and Sound sources are in online form on their website, whereas others don't have an online source; additionally, some authors are known and others are not. Where possible, I have added an author and/or a link; where not possible, I have left it as BFI. I have also made sure that every Sight and Sound link is listed with the British Film Institute as publisher. Jaguarnik (talk) 10:10, 5 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Hello @Jo-Jo Eumerus: please let me know if I have sufficiently addressed all issues. Jaguarnik (talk) 12:07, 8 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
There are many things that can determine reliability and publisher is one of them. Author being reliable can substitute for it, though. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 12:42, 8 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Jo-Jo Eumerus: I have made edits to the article. Does the source review pass, or is there anything that remains to be fixed? Jaguarnik (talk) 15:38, 13 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I think it passes. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 12:54, 15 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

RoySmith

[edit]

I'm not sure if I'll dig in for a full review ...

Lead
[edit]
  • The bit in the lead about Part II being banned caught my eye. It seems odd that Part I would win a Stalin Prize but Part II would be banned one year later. This leaves the reader hanging, wondering what changed? Did Eisenstein go off on some ideological flyer in Part II? Was there a new government with a different mindset? You don't have to go into a lot of detail here in the lead, but at least give the reader a hint to explain this odd turn of events.
Added to the lead that Part II was poorly received by Soviet authorities for its negative depiction of Ivan and therefore banned.Jaguarnik (talk) 15:18, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
A better explanation would be that this was really a negative depiction of Stalin since, as you point out later, the film treats Ivan as a proxy for Stalin. I think this could be improved if you mentioned the Ivan-Stalin connection first, and then the negative depiction of Ivan leading to the bad ban would make more sense in context. RoySmith (talk) 13:47, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Coincidentally, ErnestKrause also suggested I add the Ivan-Stalin connection, but I had added it to the third paragraph. Added to the second paragraph "Ivan the Terrible was commissioned on behalf of Soviet leader Joseph Stalin in January 1941. In Russian historiography, Ivan had generally been portrayed negatively; the film was intended to depict the Tsar in a positive light and to draw parallels between Ivan and Stalin." This then (I hope) gives some context to the ban for being a negative depiction of Ivan. Also removed "However" from the next sentence, as I felt that would improve flow. Jaguarnik (talk) 14:21, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • When I got to the color scenes were filmed in Moscow that was a bit of a surprise. I'd introduce this with something like "The film was shot partly in black and white and partly in color", then pick up with where each was shot.
    • Changed to "Principal photography eventually commenced in April 1943; the film was shot partly in black and white and partly in color. The majority of the film was shot in black and white in the city of Alma-Ata, while the color scenes were filmed in Moscow." Hopefully there is no issue with repetition here.
  • Ivan the Terrible has had a polarized reception the use of "has had" implies this is still going on, but the rest of the paragraph makes is sound like the polarization was entirely in the past.
    • As late as 2012 it was receiving reviews like "It is a great movie, but not a good one", so I feel that it could be argued that this is still going on. However, I see your point, so I changed it to just "had".
Plot
[edit]
  • Link boyars and explain what they are. I know you did this in the lead, but it needs to be done again here.
    • Done.
  • Yefrosinya Staritskaya, who wishes to see her son, Vladimir Staritsky Is it typical for Russians of that era to have different last names for the mother and the son? This seems worth a footnote to explain the discrepancy.
    • It is just how Russian names work to this day. Russian male last names end in -ov/-ev/sky/oy; female last names end in -ova/-eva/aya (with the exception of foreign last names). See Anna Filosofova and her son Dmitry Filosofov for one example, or Leo Tolstoy and his wife Sophia Tolstaya for another. I have added a footnote explaining the Russian name tradition.
  • Livonian links to Livonian Order. Is that the correct target? Also, in why Ivan is more worthy to rule than he is who does "he" refer to: the ambassador or Prince Kurbsky?
    • Should be the correct target. It is Prince Kurbsky that "he" refers to. I did realize that there might be ambiguity but I didn't want to repeat it by saying "A Livonian ambassador asks Prince Kurbsky why Ivan is more worthy to rule Prince Kurbsky" and I thought it was evident that a Russian prince was more likely to rule than a foreign ambassador.
  • The marriage feast is interrupted by an unruly mob of common people I'm confused about the chronology here. Did all the seducing, informing, and receiving of permission in the previous sentences happen at the wedding, which is still going on when the mob arrives?
    • Yes.
  • brutality against their Tatar prisoners who are the Tatars?
    • Wikilinked to Tatars.
      • I would also add a short in-line explanation.
        • I've tried to think of an elegant way to explain who the Tatars are, but the best thing I could think of was adding "Tatar" to the mention of the Khanate of Kazan. I think this signals to the reader that the Tatars were the dominant ethnic group of the Khanate of Kazan. I could change it to "Tatar-ruled", but this implies that they were not the indigenous population/were only briefly ruling.
          • The {{short description}} on Tatars says "Turkic ethnic groups in Eurasia", so maybe that would work? RoySmith (talk) 15:08, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
            • Then we have the problem that we interrupt the flow of the paragraph to say "Tatar (a Turkic ethnic group of Eurasia)"; either we would have to write "Tatar (a Turkic ethnic group of Eurasia) prisoners" or "Tatar (a Turkic ethnic group of Eurasia) Khanate of Kazan", which flows unnaturally and is awkward to read. I thought of phrasing it as "envoys from the Khanate of Kazan, a state ruled by the Tatars (a Turkic group of Eurasia)" but this also just doesn't flow well. If it's really necessary to explain who the Tatars are beyond wikilinking, I can add another footnote. Jaguarnik (talk) 16:10, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
              A footnote sounds like a reasonable plan, thanks. RoySmith (talk) 17:16, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
              Footnote added to "Tatar prisoners", explaining that "The Khanate of Kazan was populated by the Tatars, a Turkic group of Eurasia."Jaguarnik (talk) 19:22, 21 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • swears his allegiance to the tsarevich what is a tsarevich?
    • Tsar's son, I guess equivalent to a prince. I've wikilinked to Tsarevich.
      • As with Staritskaya/Staritsky, an explanatory footnote would be useful here.
        • Added.
  • The news shocks the tsarina, who is already ill. This is confusing. When did she become ill? Had she already started drinking the poisoned wine? Was the wine part of a plan to commit suicide? Or, wait, maybe the "she" in "she slips a goblet ..." that's Yefosinya doing the slipping? This all needs to be explained better.
    • It is unclear when she became ill, so I fear I can't make this better. I don't see why the wine would be part of a plan to commit suicide when it was just indicated that Yefrosinya planned to kill Anastasia. I've changed "she slips a goblet" to "Yefrosinya slips a goblet";
  • Sigismund promises to make Kurbsky ruler of Ivan's territories once he exploits the tsar's absence by conquering them. Another ambiguous anticedant. Who is the "he" in "he exploits" Kurbsky or Sigismund?
    • Sigismund. It seems I have an issue with ambiguous anticedants. Changed to "Sigismund promises that after he exploits the tsar's absence by conquering Moscow, he will make Kurbsky ruler of Ivan's territories."
  • After Shuysky insulted Ivan's mother and attempted to strike him, Ivan had him executed And again, who is "him" in these two places. I'm pretty sure the first "him" is Ivan and the second "him" is Shuysky but this is really unclear.
    • Could Ivan have himself executed? Could Shuysky strike himself? At any rate, I've changed it to "Ivan had the boyar executed", hopefully this removes any ambiguity.
      • It's easy when writing to get so close to the material that these sorts of things seem obvious. But when I was reading it, I had to stop and work it out. You are right that there's really no other logical explanation, but it still interrupted my reading flow, so it helps to be more explicit.
Production
[edit]
  • film about the Russian tsar Ivan IV I already capitalized one instance of "tsar Ivan", but I see you have it again in lower case. Is that intentional?
    • No. Changed to upper case.
  • was made to spend a whole night in a coffin, because Eisenstein refused to let her out of the coffin rephrase to eliminate the repetition of "coffin"
    • Changed to just "let her out".
  • Although most of the footage shot for Part III was destroyed was it intentionally destroyed?
    • Unfortunately the source doesn't elaborate. However, going back to the source, I realized I misinterpreted what the source said. One specific scene was destroyed. I've changed to "some" of the footage was destroyed, not most.

OK, I've finished reading the rest of the sections and found nothing of concern. Overall, I like this and I'll come back and take another look once you've worked through the issues I've noted. RoySmith (talk) 21:08, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate your comments! I think I've addressed all your comments and made the necessary changes; please let me know if everything looks good.Jaguarnik (talk) 03:13, 20 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Mandurah line

[edit]
Nominator(s): Steelkamp (talk) 02:09, 17 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

The second article in my upcoming trilogy of featured article candidates, the Mandurah line is a railway line connecting Perth with the neighbouring city of Mandurah. The Mandurah line went through a major route change during planning as a result of a change in state government, taking the line along a more direct route via the William Street tunnel (which I have already got to FA status). Construction took place between 2004 and 2007, and the line opened on 23 December 2007. The line was surprisingly cheap to construct, costing less than A$1.725 billion for a 71-kilometre (44 mi) line, and patronage has exceeded expectations, making the Mandurah line a very successful line. I've been working on this article since 2021 and I aim to have this be today's featured article on the 20th anniversary of the line opening next year. I await your review. Steelkamp (talk) 02:09, 17 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Metalicat

[edit]

Have conducted a quick sweep of typos. Reviewing prose, plus one citation-placement issue I noticed. The article is very detailed and the structure is easy to follow. A few points:

  • Tunnelling section: the same Australian article, Rail link to cause 'many months' of traffic delays, appears to be cited twice in a row after the same sentence. One of those duplicate refs can be removed.
    • Done, I've replaced it with another reference.
  • Construction section: the sentence ending responsible for rail expansion, appears to need a full stop rather than a comma before the citation, as "The eight packages were:" starts a new sentence.
    • Done.
  • Lead: it says the Mandurah line was divided into seven major contract packages, while the body says construction was divided into eight packages and then lists packages A to H. I can see how this may reconcile, as package H was minor works, but it may be worth making explicit so the reader does not pause over it.
    • I've replaced "seven major contract packages" with "eight contract packages".
  • Cost escalations and opening: The first train south of the Narrows Bridge, a test train ran between Perth and Rockingham, ran on 9 November 2007.. This sentence is awkward because the middle clause has its own verb. Something like "The first train south of the Narrows Bridge, a test train running between Perth and Rockingham, ran on 9 November 2007" would fix it.
    • Fixed.
  • Patronage section: the sentence saying patronage reached a record high of 23,075,517 in 2024–25 cites a 25 August 2024 press release. That source cannot itself support a completed 2024–25 financial-year figure. The PTA patronage source may support the figure, but the 2024 press release should either be removed from that sentence or moved to a claim it can support.
    • I've removed that ref entirely as [16] is an adequate source.

Metalicat (talk) 21:59, 17 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks User:Metalicat. I intended on the structure being easy to follow! Steelkamp (talk) 00:28, 18 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Support on prose and the Manual of Style - criteria 1a and 2. Metalicat (talk) 18:07, 18 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

VWF

[edit]

Taking this spot, review comments incoming. I have an FAC nom and would appreciate if you could take a look too, ty! –VWF

  • I see <!-- Some sources say 24,950 or 25,000, but this seems to be boardings in one direction --> and <!-- Sigl and Yamazaki give a date of 5 June 2006, but that is clearly wrong due to media reports at the time --> in the wikitext… Even though readers do not normally see them, the article should not privately decide that one source is "clearly wrong" or infer why figures differ without a source explaining the discrepancy. For the tunnel date, I believe you should either find a source that reconciles the dates or write neutrally like "Sigl and Yamazaki date the breakthrough to 5 June 2006, while contemporary news reports described it as occurring on 3 June.", and for the patronage forecast, distinguish the metrics only where a source does so. Like "Contemporary reports gave forecasts ranging from approximately 25,000 passengers to 50,000 boarding movements per weekday."
    • As for the number of boardings per weekday, the sources from 2006 and 2007 (especially sources from when the line opened) all say 50,000, and it's only earlier sources that say 25,000, so I think its appropriate to use the later figure.
    • As for the tunnel date, multiple sources from at the time verify that it happened on 3 June, which outweighs the one later source.
  • The article is mostly careful to call the A$1.725 billion figure the cost of New MetroRail, but the surrounding discussion sometimes blurs that project with the Mandurah line. For instance the line was part of a broader programme that also included the Clarkson extension and the Thornlie line. The article should not imply that the full A$1.725 billion was solely the Mandurah line's construction cost.
  • The contract-package table compounds this problem. The column heading is simply "Value", but the values appear to represent different things. Let's say Package F for example, it is shown as A$324.5 million but the later prose says the City Project ultimately cost A$439.3 million excluding legal fees. Also, Package E is listed at A$105 million, while the body says its signed contract was A$99 million, although I see the explanation for the later figure in the footnote.
    • For each package value given in that table, its referring to the original value at the time contracts were awarded. Unfortunately, there isn't a comprehensive source on how much each package went over budget.
  • Instead of "Value", you could use "Original contract value" or "Reported package value at award", then of course explain deviations in the prose or via notes.
    • Changed the column heading to "original value". I've addressed the individual package deviations where possible, although the sources don't allow for all cost overruns to be allocated to each package, so the cost overruns are discussed more generally within the "Cost escalations and opening" section.
  • Package H should not have a blank value cell, maybe use "Not separately reported" or an {{em dash}} and maybe with a note.
    • Done.
  • When I read this "The Mandurah line, also known as the Southern Suburbs Railway or the South West Metropolitan Railway …", they sound like current alternative names, they are not, instead they are primarily planning and construction names. Why not say "The Mandurah line, known during planning and construction as the South West Metropolitan Railway and Southern Suburbs Railway, is …"?
    • Done.
  • Re "Early planning for the Mandurah line began in 1989 during planning for the Yanchep line.", In the body of the article, the line is correctly identified as the Northern Suburbs Railway, later the Joondalup line and then the Yanchep line. The lead should use this historical terms correctly too, like so … "Early planning began in 1989, during planning for the Northern Suburbs Railway, now the Yanchep line."
    • I used the current name of the Yanchep line in the lead because the lead should summarise the rest of the article and not go into too much detail. I don't want the lead to get too long, particularly on minor details like the name of another line.
  • Re the patronage claim, why not be more exact. Instead of "The line's patronage has significantly exceeded expectations … making it the busiest Transperth railway line.", why not "Early patronage exceeded pre-opening forecasts. The line recorded 23,075,517 boardings in the year to June 2025." I believe you should anyhow retain "busiest Transperth railway line" only if a current PTA source compares all the lines somehow directly.
    • Ok, I've reworded along these lines. I think this source should be sufficient to say the Mandurah line is the busiest Transperth railway line.

[more comments to come] --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 08:48, 26 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

  • Re "By 2000, the Labor Party, not wanting to appear too critical, was in favour of the Kenwick route.", I honestly consider this an interpretation of political strategy. It should either be attributed to the newspaper source or rewritten neutrally as "By 2000, the Labor Party had moderated its opposition to the Kenwick route." or something like that.
    • A direct quote of the source is "Rockingham MP Mark McGowan was previously opposed to taking the rail through Kenwick instead of Fremantle. He said yesterday Labor had nevertheless supported the rail plan because the public got sick of an Opposition that was always critical." I've reworded a bit so that the article attributes this to McGowan.
  • The {{commons}} template is usually placed at an "Externa links" section.
    • There's no external links section, so I've moved it to the last section of the page as per MOS:LAYOUTEL, which says "If the article does not already have an "External links" section, then you may choose whether to place larger sister link(s) (such as {{Sister project links}} or {{Commons category}}) in whatever the last section is (usually "References"), or to create an "External links" section and use the less common inline form of these templates."
  • Use currency consistently. I can see that the lead identifies the currency as Australian dollars, but much of the body uses an unqualified $, so use A$ consistently where ambiguity is possible.
    • I'm following MOS:$, which says "In general, the first mention of a particular currency should use its full, unambiguous signifier (e.g. A$52), with subsequent references using just the appropriate symbol (e.g. $88), unless this would be unclear".

This is a well-researched article, I must say. Thanks for a job well done as that would be all from me :) --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 09:06, 26 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review Vanderwaalforces! I've addressed everything. Steelkamp (talk) 17:21, 26 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
This absolutely looks good to me, so I am happy to support promotion based on my evaluation of prose quality, comprehensiveness, length/focus, neutrality and structure. Well done, Steelkamp. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 17:27, 26 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
If you're able to, I would appreciate you looking at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ewuare/archive1 :) Vanderwaalforces (talk) 17:32, 26 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Hurricanehink

[edit]

I knew this line sounded familiar. Well, since I have an FAC of my own, I might as well review this.

Lead
  • I suggest moving "known during planning and construction as the Southern Suburbs Railway or the South West Metropolitan Railway" to a second sentence, unless these terms are still used nowadays. Otherwise, there is too much info in the first sentence.
    • Done.
  • "Originally planned to open between Perth and Warnbro station in 2006 and between Warnbro and Mandurah in 2007, the tunnel opened on 15 October 2007 and the rest of the line opened on 23 December 2007." - this is also a lot for one sentence because of the number of dates involved. But only two of them are relevant (when it actually opened). Are the originally planned dates vital in the lead?
    • I think its important to show that the opening was late. But just saying something like "the tunnel opened on 15 October 2007 and the rest of the line opened on 23 December 2007, one year late" would be incomplete, because the line to Mandurah was planned to open in 2007 but to Warnbro in 2006, so its partially late.
  • "23,075,517 boardings" - make sure all numbers are connected with their items with a nonbreaking space:  
    • I don't think that's needed. MOS:NBSP doesn't give that or something similar as an example, and I don't think this is a case where "breaking across lines might be confusing or awkward".
History
  • "In February 1989, ahead of that year's state election and amidst planning for the Northern Suburbs Railway, now known as the Yanchep line, the government of Western Australia announced it was investigating the building of a railway line from Perth to Rockingham or Mandurah." - clunky and lengthy. I suggest splitting into two sentences
    • Done.
  • South West Area Transit (SWAT) Steering Committee - is this your acronym, or was it in usage in documents? The reason I ask, why not just call it the SWATSC? I notice you subsequently say "the SWAT Steering Committee" two more times. Is that to make sure that you want the readers to know it's a committee and not some nameless bureaucrats?
    • Sources use SWAT as an acronym, and not SWATSC. See [17] (use ctrl f).
  • "$941 million" - somewhere you should have a note that indicates that all monetary figures are in Australian dollars, unadjusted for inflation
    • Done.
  • The map for the proposed routes in Rockingham should indicate the color, because depending what way you look at the map, "left" could refer to two different routes
    • Done.
  • Since the Williams Street tunnel has its own article, the "Tunnelling" could be a bit shorter by skipping the projected opening dates. Also, the text is sandwiched between the left and right side, so you should probably remove one of the pics there.
    • I've moved the image to the right. As for the opening dates, i'm not sure what opening dates you're referring to.
  • "A later source says the cost of Package E was $105 million." - "says" should either be "reported" or something more neutral, also past tense.
    • Done both.
  • "The new bridge opened on 22–23 January 2006, allowing work on the rail corridor to begin on the original bridge. The new bridge is 15 metres (49 ft) wide and 660 metres (2,170 ft) long, and was constructed using the incremental launch method." - can you rewrite the second sentence so you don't have two consecutive sentences starting with "the new bridge"?
    • Done. I've swapped the sentences around and reworded slightly.
  • "Cockburn Central, Kwinana, Wellard and Mandurah stations reached practical completion in January or February 2007, Rockingham and Warnbro stations reached practical completion in March or April, and Canning Bridge, Bull Creek and Murdoch stations reached practical completion in June 2007." - could you avoid saying "practical completion" three times in the same sentence?
    • Done.
  • You should abbreviate "kilometres" after the 2nd usage, all throughout the article. Same with "kilometres per hour"
    • Done.
  • Are there any plans for further extensions?
    • No, there are not. Mandurah station was not designed for any future extension and a new station would have to be built there if so. The master plan did not say anything about future extensions, and the Perth and Peel @ 3.5 million plan (pdf page 37), released in 2018, does not say anything about an extension to the Mandurah line.
Service
  • "From 2031, peak frequencies on the Mandurah line are planned to reach 18 trains per hour, which will be made possible by C-series trains having three doors per car, which reduces dwell times compared to B-series trains, and the communications-based train control signalling upgrade." - too long, please split into two sentences
    • Done.
  • "The busiest stations on the Mandurah line as of 2013–14" - what about something this decade? Or are post-COVID figures skewing the numbers?
    • Unfortunately, there isn't a routine release of what the busiest stations are, so I have to make do with whatever sources I can find, which are [18] and [19].

The article was an easy read, and looks to be in good shape. I doubt you'll have any issues, but lemme know if you have any questions about my review. Cheers! ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:15, 3 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for reviewing @Hurricanehink:! I've responded to everything. Steelkamp (talk) 09:48, 3 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Appreciate the timely replies and fixes. Support. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 16:33, 3 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

[edit]

Sources seem reliable and consistently formatted. It seems like the rather large proportion of dependent sources is used correctly, so pass on that too. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:55, 5 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

The Chattri

[edit]
Nominator(s): Harry Mitchell, Hassocks5489

Another war memorial, but a different flavour to my previous nomination. This one commemorates an aspect of WWI that is largely forgotten in British history. Many thousands of Indians fought in France and Belgium in the early days of the war. Wounded soldiers needed somewhere to recuperate away from the front line, so Brighton's Royal Pavilion (an Indo-Oriental palace built for a bored prince and by then largely disused) was converted into a makeshift hospital. This monument, high in the hills above the town, was built in memory of those who did not survive, though it has had a somewhat uneasy history since it was unveiled in 1921.

Hassocks created the article and developed the skeleton a few years ago, and I've recently expanded it with some more research. I'm sensitive to the monument's position in imperial history and I've tried to describe the controversy as best I can and avoid taking sides. It's only ~2,000 words but I feel it's comprehensive. Thanks for taking the time to read it! HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:02, 13 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

MSincccc

[edit]
Background
Indian soldiers in Brighton
  • Could we trim this sub-section's heading to "Background"?
    • I like the extra detail and I can't think of any MoS-based to lose it.
  • "among those to visit the pavilion during their stay were" → "among those who visited the pavilion during their stay were"
    • Done.
  • "Photographs were taken of the deceased, which were sent to their relatives" → "Photographs of the deceased were taken and sent to their relatives"
    • I'm not sure about this, but done.
  • The 21 Muslim men who died were taken to
    • How about "The 21 Muslim men who died were buried at..."?
      • I think it flows better as it is.
  • "one in the workhouse" → "one in a workhouse"
    • Unless we are referring to a specific workhouse.
      • We are indeed referring to a specific workhouse.
  • "despite the fact that" → "although"
    • I don't think "although" adequately conveys the uniqueness of the situation.
  • instilling Imperial pride
    • Lowercase "imperial"? Also, how about "fostering" in place of "instilling"?
      • I could go either way on this so we'll go yours.
  • "considered it to be of great importance"→ "considered it of great importance"
    • Done.
  • "near Patcham, high on the South Downs" → "near Patcham on the South Downs"
    • No worries with the present version. A suggestion lest "high" could be dropped.
      • I think I prefer it the way it is but I don't feel strongly about this one.
  • "ceased accommodating Indian soldiers" → "ceased to accommodate Indian soldiers"
    • Done.
  • dietary and religious requirements of the Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims
    • Do we need the definite article before "Hindus"?
      • I think it's helpful. We're talking about these Hindus (etc) in particular, not Hindus in general.

MSincccc (talk) 15:59, 14 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@MSincccc Thank you for taking a look. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:50, 14 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I note the hospital in the Brighton Workhouse was renamed as the Kitchener Indian Hospital while serving as a hospital for Indian soldiers. It eventually became the Brighton General Hospital (the article mentions its use as a ww1 hospital). We may want to add those links and properly source. Erp (talk) 05:05, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Inception
  • We could link town centre and reimbursement?
    • Both of those are common English terms and neither is crucial to this article. I know I'm a lot more conservative in my linking than most people but I don't think either of those links would be helpful. Almost any term could be linked in an encyclopaedia with seven million entries but we should focus on the most important ones.
  • Jacob had worked extensively in India and was widely associated with the Indo-Saracenic architectural style and in particular was known for his use of chhatri, elevated domes supported on pillars.
    • How about "and, in particular, was known for his use of chhatri,"?
    • An alternative: How about "was particularly"?
      • Done (the first one).
  • Also, "chhatris" in place of "chhatri"?
    • I'm not sure about this. Our article seems to suggest the plural form is the same as the singular but it's not a term I was familiar with before I started researching this.
  • Funds were raised and Henriques completed his design by 1917.
    • Do we know who the funds were raised by?
      • The sources don't specify, other than the sharing of costs between the borough and the government. I would guess that the borough had to do some fundraising but that's speculation.
  • "soon after the last cremations" → "soon after the final cremations"
    • Done.
  • "were owned by Marquess of Abergavenny" → "were owned by the Marquess of Abergavenny"
    • Done.
  • "Jacob, 75 years old, declined the commission" → "Jacob, aged 75, declined the commission"
    • I think it flows better as it is.
  • "Henriques waived a fee and accepted only reimbursement of expenses" → "Henriques waived his fee and accepted only reimbursement of expenses"
    • Done.

MSincccc (talk) 07:26, 15 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you again for your feedback. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 10:34, 17 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Design and setting
  • "...each has four brackets projecting from them." → "...projecting from it."
  • "from a path off a bridleway off the A27 Brighton Bypass" → "from a path off a bridleway from the A27 Brighton Bypass"
  • "which itself stands over three blocks of granite" → "which itself stands on three blocks of granite"
  • "The plinth is square, and stepped down..." → "The plinth is square and stepped down..."
  • "The Chattri is roughly the shape of an umbrella." → "The Chattri is roughly umbrella-shaped." (a suggestion)
Unveiling
  • We could link to the British royal family.
  • "Edward, Prince of Wales presided." → "Edward, Prince of Wales, presided." (commas needed for the non-restrictive appositive)
  • "...was imperialistic and a 'symbolic performance'" → "...was imperialistic and constituted a 'symbolic performance'"
  • "and the exception to the law to allow the open-air pyre and to the construction of the Chattri." → "and to the exception to the law allowing the open-air pyre, and to the construction of the Chattri."

MSincccc (talk) 13:20, 17 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks again, @MSincccc. I think I'd want a source or a native speaker to weigh in on chattri vs chattris. And I don't think the royal family link is likely to add to the reader's understanding. Other than that, I think I've addressed your latest batch. :) HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:35, 18 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I note the article on Chhatri is not consistent. The intro uses same word for singular and plural but later in the article an 's' is sometimes added for plural. And the spelling variants are considerable. We might want to look for usage in recent scholarly articles. Erp (talk) 04:52, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Later history
  • "fell to the Borough of Brighton but the memorial was neglected" → "fell to the Borough of Brighton, but the memorial was neglected"
  • "no replacement was appointed and the cottage was demolished" → "no replacement was appointed, and the cottage was demolished"
  • "Previously, the names were spread between the Hollybrook Memorial" → "Previously, the names were split between"
Lead
  • "a chattri or chhatri (a word which means ‘umbrella’" → "a chattri or chhatri (a word meaning ‘umbrella’"
  • "Several have suggested that its purpose was to promote Indian unity within the British Empire and show that Indian troops were well treated." → "Several have suggested that its purpose was to promote Indian unity within the British Empire, and to show that Indian troops were well treated."
  • "At least one suggested that its neglect" → "At least one has suggested that its neglect"
Bottom line
Thoughts @HJ Mitchell? MSincccc (talk) 08:26, 22 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
HJ Mitchell It's been ten days since I took the article up for review. It has been a fine read, and everything else feels like stylistic polish. I have nothing more to add here. Support. MSincccc (talk) 16:24, 24 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

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  • Don't use fixed px size

Support from VWF

[edit]

Will be reading this and reviews coming soon. –VWF

  • The claim that the Indian Army had "never previously been deployed outside of South Asia" is too categorical and appears historically unsafe. I checked the source and it does not support this exact wording. Its more limited claim is that the Indian Army was reserved for regional combat in South Asia and that Indian soldiers had never previously fought alongside British troops in a European war. Those are not equivalent to never having deployed outside South Asia under any circumstances. Something like "The Indian Army had generally been reserved for regional operations in South Asia, and Indian soldiers had not previously fought alongside British troops in a European war." anyhow is what is expected at least.
    • Good point. Amended.
  • The lead says the Chattri "was built in 1921", while the body says construction ran from August to the end of 1920; the category is also "Buildings and structures completed in 1920".
    • Indeed. Construction was complete by the end of 1920 but it wasn't unveiled until February 1921. Fixed.
  • The infobox uses File:Chattri front view 2024-07-19.jpg, but its caption reads "The memorial in 2010". Is this not an obvious mismatch that needs fixing?
    • Removed. Good catch; I replaced the image but not the caption when preparing the article.
  • Nairn & Pevsner, p. 458. is cited but I can't find that in the bibliography.
    • Hmm. Not sure what happened here. Must be a gremlin introduced in re-drafting. I've removed it for now; if I remember what I was trying to do, I'll re-add it with a full citation.
  • The Bance 2024 source has a url different from the archive-url entirely.
    • I don't know what that means or whether it's a problem. I'm no good with the fiddly side of references.
  • "Throughout its life, academics have studied the Chattri." This does not tell readers anything specific, I believe it should be dropped.
    • I think this is a reasonable introduction and preferable to an abrupt change of topic but I'm not wedded to it.
  • The lead says "over 4,000" Indian soldiers were treated in Brighton, while the body gives "over 4,300". Use one figure consistently, preferably the more precise one supported in the body.
    • Done.
  • "This extended to the correct funerary rites, the exception to the law to allow the open-air pyre …", The earlier statement says there was "some debate" over legality and that government sanction was required, so "exception to the law" is stronger than the earlier account, and the language should be harmonised.
    • I see what you're getting at but it was unclear whether the cremations were allowed or not but an exception was made anyway.
  • "The event is supported by …", shouldn't this be past-tense?
    • The event still takes place annually so present-tense is correct I believe.
  • Instead of citing "Barringer, section: 'In the Trenches'." this way, why not use page numbers? It was somehow difficult to find the sections without search for them.
    • Because the version I used was an HTML document with no page numbers.
  • The lead says "Throughout its life, academics have studied the Chattri. Several have suggested that its purpose was to promote Indian unity within the British Empire, and show that Indian troops were well treated. At least one suggested that its neglect after the unveiling ceremony was evidence of the British government's insincerity, but that it had been repurposed by the local community."
  • The body says "According to the art historian Tim Barringer, the intended audience was India—although nationalist tensions had been set aside during the war, they were gaining momentum again by 1921. During the war, the British authorities had been keen to show that Indian soldiers were being treated properly."
  • But after checking the cited source, it does not exactly support "During the war, the British authorities had been keen to show that Indian soldiers were being treated properly." That is broader than the passage. Barringer here says that the Raj was anxious to be seen mourning Indian soldiers and that the ceremony communicated loyalty, imperial connection, and care. He does not directly make the broader claim that authorities wanted to demonstrate that Indian soldiers were generally "being treated properly"
  • This also appear in the lead and should be rephrased. I could say "Scholars have interpreted the Chattri as both a war memorial and an imperial political symbol, intended to support ties between India and Britain and to demonstrate public recognition of Indian soldiers' service." or something like that.
  • For the Ashley point, I believe you should name her rather than saying "at least one".

Vanderwaalforces (talk) 07:13, 25 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Vanderwaalforces, I think that all of your comments have now been addressed. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:25, 4 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think I've got the last one yet. It's on my list for tomorrow/Monday. :) HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:46, 4 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Vanderwaalforces apologies for the delay. I believe I've addressed everything now. Your last point took a bit of thinking about. I don't think it's an unreasonable conclusion to draw, but you're right that Barringer focuses specifically on the funerary rites. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:37, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@HJ Mitchell: LGTM, happy to support promotion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 10:06, 24 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Jim

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Just nitpicks Jimfbleak - talk to me? 12:58, 27 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

  • In the lead you say was damaged by target practice, in the body it's rifle practice. Assuming the latter is correct, changing the lead to match makes it more accurate. As it stands, could be heavy artillery.
    • Reasonable point. So done.
  • I linked workhouse
  • where a ghat (open-air funeral pyre) was built and the bodies were cremated.—Looking at our articles on ghat and shmashana, the latter seems more accurate, and you have parenthesised the meaning, so nothing lost.
    • Ghat is the term used almost universally by the sources (some use "pyre"); I haven't come across the other term.
  • Lakhbir Jassal described the rituals as "imperial paternalism". —no indication of who he his, so why does his opinion matter?
    • They're an academic of one flavour or another but I can only find their affiliation, which I've added.
  • local Sikh teacher took on the responsibility—name?
    • Their name is in some of the more derailed sources but I tend to err on the side of leaving out the names of non-notable living people.
  • I agree with @Vanderwaalforces: comment For the Ashley point, I believe you should name her rather than saying "at least one".

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • Why do some Bibliography entries include |ref=none and others not?
  • Be consistent in how you format short cites to sections
Hi @Nikki, thanks for taking a look. I've added ref=none to all the books (I don't really understand what it does; apparently it's needed for a script to work, which feels a bit backwards). What was the inconsistency you spotted, was it the introduction, which isn't a section per se (it doesn't have a subheader like the others). Singh looks different because it's a chapter within a book. Best, HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:08, 11 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Differing punctuation (section: " vs section ")
Singh: sure, but is there a reason this couldn't be done with the same template as the other entries? And is there a reason to repeat the date? Nikkimaria (talk) 19:13, 11 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria Fixed both (I didn't know the cite book template supported a chapter name with a different author, thanks to Erp for doing that). HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:59, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Stikkyy

[edit]
  • Throughout its life, academics have studied the Chattri. – The cited scholarship runs from 1999 to 2022.
  • The Commonwealth War Graves Commission unveiled a separate memorial on the same site in 2010, listing the names of the dead. – Specify that it's not all 74 soldiers.
  • Brighton, being a resort town on the south coast and close to major ports, was well-positioned to accommodate the evacuees. – Presumably because of the latter more than the former?
    • Not entirely. Being a resort meant it had plenty of facilities to accommodate an influx of people.
  • Over 4,300 Indian soldiers were treated in hospitals in Brighton, of whom 74 died of their wounds. – Died of their wounds, or died of their wounds/disease?
    • Died of wounds or complications from wounds; I've seen no coverage of widespread disease.
  • Photographs of the deceased were taken, which were sent to their relatives in India along with a portion of their ashes. – Of their corpses?
    • Well, yes, but it goes without saying that a photo of a deceased person taken after their death is a photo of a corpse.
  • After leaving office, Otter chaired Brighton's Indian Memorials Committee – When?
  • It is roughly a mile and a quarter north-northeast (two kilometres) – Why not use numbers?
    • Per MOS:NUMERAL, numbers below ten are written as words.
  • The Chattri is roughly the shape of an umbrella. – The section above already covers this, redundant?
  • It is a domed pavilion rising to 30 feet (9.1 m) to the finial at its apex. – I think 'finial' and 'apex' are describing the same things, is it common practice to measure finials at their base or halfway through?
    • I don't think they're exclusive. "Apex" is the highest point, "finial" is the object that reaches it.
  • The plinth bears an inscription in English, Hindi, Punjabi, and Urdu, the text of which was prepared by Sir John Otter – Did Otter write the text in Hindi, Punjabi, and Urdu?
    • I would imagine it was translated though by whom is not specified in the source material.
  • The monument covers an area of 40 by 60 feet (12 by 18 metres) – I thought it was square?
  • Otter initially approached the Duke of Connaught (a member of the royal family and army officer who had served in India), but the duke was due to be out of the country on the proposed date. – He approached him what for? The unveiling?
  • The mayor and mayoress of Brighton and Otter joined at Brighton railway station and the party proceeded by car to Patcham, greeted by enthusiastic crowds along the route. – The party has not been introduced, so who did they 'join' with?
  • Lakhbir Jassal, of the University of Edinburgh Institute of Geography – Does the 'University of Edinburgh Institute of Geography' grant Jassal any particular credibility? I think we shouldn't use academic titles in the same way we don't use 'Dr.'. Also, a brief Google search of the name doesn't allay my confidence, why is she qualified to speak on the subject?
  • but the memorial was neglected in the years after the unveiling and was allowed to fall into disrepair. – I think the latter implies the former.
  • and the India Office prompted the Borough Corporation into action in 1924, but complaints about the condition of the site continued. – What sort of action?
    • Minimal, hence the continued complaints.
  • This was agreed, though the corporation was reluctant to pay for the restoration works and postponed them to 1942. – This is the first mention of the 'restoration works', what did the plan entail?
  • and a public ceremony has been held annually since 2000 on the third Sunday in June. – I note that all three cited sources predate COVID, did it have an impact? I also note that the centenary seems to have gone unmentioned, was there anything that was held then?
    • The ceremony has certainly continued. The most recent source for its continuation is Dunlop (2025), but it doesn't seem to attract much attention in reliable sources. It's one of those things that just quietly happens. The people in the relevant communities presumably know by word of mouth but don't document it. @Stikkyy: Thank you for your comments. Unfortunately I've only just seen them and I'm away for a week (at Wikimania in Paris) starting tomorrow. I hope you'll forgive me if I can't address the rest of your comments until the week after. To other reviewers: do feel free to leave comments if you were waiting for me, and I'll get to those in week's time as well. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:41, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Stikkyy (talk) 00:45, 18 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

  • "The monument covers an area of 40 by 60 feet (12 by 18 metres) – I thought it was square?" I think the article has to be clear that the full site consists of a grey stone terraced enclosure which is the 40 by 60 feet (by eyeballing some aerial views, unfortunately none seem usable in wikipedia), inside is the Chattri proper (which is square) at one end overlooking the sites of the three ghats at the other end (the wreathes in the first picture are on the ghat sites), surrounding the terrace are landscaped gardens. I think the best picture currently in wikimedia commons for showing this is File:The_Chattri,_Brighton_09.jpg Ideally an aerial view would be useful.
  • "and a public ceremony has been held annually since 2000 on the third Sunday in June – I note that all three cited sources predate COVID, did it have an impact? I also note that the centenary seems to have gone unmentioned, was there anything that was held then?", Services were held in 2020 (though only the organizer and presumably a camera person were present due to covid), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrGZt1ogTu8), 2021 (it is mentioned that the 100th year since unveiling and 71st ceremony though nothing much more, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uy7c-noOZII), and apparently every year since including this year.
Thoughts on two of the comments. Erp (talk) 02:41, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I would also add
  • It sits on a plinth (or terrace) of grey stone which itself stands on three blocks of granite covering the slabs used during the cremations. The plinth is square and stepped down four times on the eastern side. - this seems wrong. Looking at a satellite view, the plinth with the Chattri has three sets of steps down on the SSE side to another terrace with the three granite slabs on it that cover the location of the cremations. A last short set of steps leads to the exit to the wider garden
BTW https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9577815/ has a picture of the dedication ceremony which seems to be CC by-SA licensed and therefore, I think, usable by wikipedia Erp (talk) 03:32, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Hongwu Emperor

[edit]
Nominator(s): Min968 (talk) 07:36, 13 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the Hongwu Emperor, the first emperor of the Ming dynasty. I have tried to improve this article as well as the articles related to the Ming dynasty. (After three times without much attention and reviews, I hope this time it will be okay.) Min968 (talk) 07:36, 13 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@FAC coordinators: I'm not sure whether I can nominate another article at the moment. Min968 (talk) 06:41, 15 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't spot a source review for reliability/formatting and we'd need that completed/passed before a new nomination. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:00, 15 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Jon698

[edit]

I would love to look over this article. I will be making some comments soon. Jon698 (talk) 11:40, 13 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

  • I will be using Yongle Emperor for comparison in some parts
  • 1. The Yongle Emperor's lede mentions him being the the fourth son of the Hongwu Emperor in the first paragraph. Could a mention of Hongwu Emperor's low-birth be mentioned as well? Currently his only family mention in the lede is being orphaned.
    • Done.
  • 2. "a government of generals and Confucian scholars" -> Wikilink Confucianism
    • Done.
  • 3. "In 1344, during a plague epidemic, Zhu Xingzong's parents and one of his brothers died." + "Zhu then entered a local Buddhist monastery." -> These should be part of the same paragraph if you are going to use the word "then"
    • Done.
  • 4. "Zhu then entered a local Buddhist monastery." -> Wikilink Buddhism
    • Done.
  • 5. "The presence of Taoist and Buddhist secret societies" -> Wikilink Taoism
    • Done.
  • 6. "In 1352, when the Yuan army burned down Zhu's monastery after suspecting the monks of links to the White Lotus society, Zhu joined the rebels." -> Could this be reorganized to be easier to read like "Zhu joined the rebels in 1352, as the Yuan army burned down Zhu's monastery after suspecting the monks of links to the White Lotus society."
    • Done.
  • 7. "On 15 April of the same year," -> "of the same year" is unnecessary as the year has already been stated in the previous sentence
    • Done.
  • 8. "Zhu entered into a dispute over Hezhou, a city situated on the banks of the Yangtze," -> Wikilink Hezhou
  • 9. "In July 1355, the Hezhou rebels obtained a fleet from rebels arriving from Chao Lake" -> Wikilink Chao Lake
    • Done.
  • 10. "Zhu defeated the local Yuan commander Chen Yexian (陳野先), who surrendered to him, but Chen betrayed Guo Tianxu during an attack on Jiqing (present-day Nanjing) in September 1355." -> This could be shortened to "The local Yuan commander Chen Yexian (陳野先) surrendered to Zhu, but Chen betrayed Guo Tianxu during an attack on Jiqing (present-day Nanjing) in September 1355."
    • Done.
  • 11. "In January 1369, the main army, led by Xu Da, captured Taiyuan, while Köke Temür retreated to Gansu. In the spring of 1369, Ming troops also began to occupy Shaanxi.[76] They had fully captured the province by September 1369, but border skirmishes with Köke Temür's troops persisted until 1370.[77]" -> Does this need to be its own paragraph? It is continuing the story from the previous paragraph so shouldn't they just be one paragraph?
    • Done.
  • 12. "It remained unchanged until the fall of the empire, although additional provisions were later added." -> Just a technicality, but shouldn't it be dynasty rather than empire? Entirely optional change
    • Done.
  • 13. "The administrative structure of the Ming dynasty was modeled after the Yuan model" -> Could "modeled" be changed to "based" as "modeled after the Yuan model" feels awkward
    • Done.
  • 14. "restrictions on personal names" -> I think a wikilink to Chinese name would be useful since naming conventions in China are dramatically different from the west
    • Done.
  • 15. "the Sumatran Kingdom of Melayu" -> Wikilink Melayu Kingdom
    • Done.
  • 16. "attacking eastern Mongolia and Manchuria with another 50,000 soldiers" -> wikilink Manchuria
  • I have no more comments. BTW if you want, could you leave a comment on my FAC

ZKang123

[edit]

Will do a review.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 03:41, 17 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Lead:

  • The orphaned Zhu then briefly lived as a novice monk, begging for alms and gaining insight into common people's hardships, while developing a dislike for book-dependent scholars - suggest spliting. Also "then" is unnecessary
  • In 1352, he joined the Red Turban rebels, a movement that sought to overthrow Yuan rule, and soon proved his ability, rising to command his own army - "soon proved his ability" is also redundant
  • In early 1368, after successfully dominating southern and central China, Zhu chose to rename the Kingdom of Wu. He decided on the name Da Ming, which translates to "Great Radiance", for his empire, and designated Hongwu, meaning "Vastly Martial", as the name of the era and the motto of his reign. - Slight rewrite to: After successfully dominating southern and central China in early 1368, Zhu decided to rename the Kingdom of Wu to Da Ming, which translates to "Great Radiance". He also declared himself the Hongwu Emperor, meaning "Vastly Martial", which was also the motto of his reign.
  • but his attempt to conquer Mongolia ended in failure - but failed to conquer Mongolia
  • Lead is quite missing on his death and who succeeded him. Might mention the leadership struggle between his grandson and the uncle who overthrew him
    • All done.

Rise to power:

  • widespread opposition to the rule of the Yuan dynasty - also mention the Yuan was Mongol-led
  • and took control in order to establish order in the surrounding area - wont taking control already mean establishing order? Might just say "and established order in the surrounding area"
  • While Zhu was considered physically unattractive[24] and he began as a rank-and-file fighter, his exceptional leadership, decisiveness, martial skill, and intelligence quickly earned him significant authority. Might rewrite to: "Zhu began as a rank-and-file fighter. While he was considered physically unattractive, Zhu's exceptional leadership, decisiveness, martial skill, and intelligence quickly earned him significant authority.
  • Unlike other leaders of his time, Zhu had a small number of relatives who were appointed to important positions, at a time when family ties were crucial for ensuring loyalty and reliability need clarification: do the other leaders have more relatives appointed, or none at all? Because the way it's written seems ambiguous
  • The rivalry between Peng and Zhao escalated into a full-blown conflict. Guo was initially captured Guo was captured by who? And in this conflict, did he side with anyone, or remained neutral?
  • The local Yuan commander Chen Yexian (陳野先) surrendered to Zhu, but betrayed Guo Tianxu during an attack on Jiqing (present-day Nanjing) in September 1355. How did the local commander betray Guo? Like, just leave Guo to the Yuan forces and pulled out?
  • For the subsection "Southern campaigns and northern expeditions (1367–1382)" please be aware of WP:PROSELIST
    • All done.

More comments to come.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 12:19, 23 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Just a note that I'm right now on holiday and unable to continue a proper review until I return home on 7 July.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 23:40, 28 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

1370s: reforms, consolidation, and stability:

  • I felt "1370s" is a bit misnamed since this section still mention events in the 1380s and 90s. I understand though it's to focus on the early years of his reign and any changes after.
    • Although the section includes some events from the 1380s and 1390s, its primary focus is on the reforms initiated in the 1370s and their subsequent development, so I think the current title remains appropriate.
  • was meticulous in his efforts to establish a new society after the fall of the Yuan dynasty. What exactly does this "new society" mean
  • but these frequent changes... he aimed to prevent the decay of society and the dynasty in the future, as well as any changes to his laws Might clarify the last point is change of laws by other people, if I must presume.
  • The Emperor believed that providing every man with a field and every woman with a loom would alleviate the people's hardships. This ideal was not reflected in reality, as the wealthy held a disproportionate amount of land and often found ways to avoid paying taxes.... By the end of his reign, very few large landowners remained. A bit confused, particularly with the part: "This ideal was not reflected in reality". Like did he try to purge as many large landowners, but there's still a wealthy class?
  • The Hongwu Emperor resettled 14,300 wealthy families from Zhejiang and the Yingtian area from their estates to Nanjing. Written a bit oddly here, especially the "from Zhejiang and the Yingtian area from their estates"
  • There were no arable lands available I presume in the entirety of China?
  • the Hongwu Emperor made it a priority to stabilize the government in China. – the Hongwu Emperor prioritized stabilizing the government in China.
  • This was likely due to the memory of the failed Mongol invasion of Japan If I recall there were multiple invasions. Also, whose memory?
  • Personally I felt this section is still a bit too much in detail, especially explaining how these policies were executed and why. And some sentences seem to broadly attribute the actions to the Ming government than the Emperor himself (e.g. "Viewing trade as corrupting, the government banned private foreign trade... The Ming forbade its citizens to leave the empire... Foreign relations played a crucial role in establishing the legitimacy of Ming rule.") I would focus more on the parts that are more attributable to the Emperor's actions and philosophies.
    • I understand your point, but I believe the current level of detail is necessary to explain the implementation of the Hongwu Emperor's policies and the ideas behind them. I also think the references to the Ming government are appropriate in context, as they describe policies enacted under the Emperor's direction.

@ZKang123: All done. Min968 (talk) 15:51, 8 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

More to come.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 13:09, 8 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

1380s and 1390s:

  • The Emperor was highly concerned about potential conspiracies among the generals, a number of whom he executed, as seen in the cases of Hu Weiyong and Lan Yu Rewrite: The emperor was deeply concerned about conspiracies among his generals and had several executed, most notably/including Hu Weiyong and Lan Yu.
  • were excluded from the administration of the country. Do you mean were excluded from administrating the country.?
  • In 1381, the Ming army, led by Fu Youde, quickly conquered Yunnan, but suppressing local uprisings kept Fu's soldiers occupied for several more years. – ..., but spent several more years suppressing local uprisings.
  • In the autumn of 1391, the Emperor's heir, Zhu Biao, went on an inspection trip to Shaanxi, where he was supposed to assess the possibility of moving the capital to Xi'an,[177] but upon his return he fell ill and died in 1392. The sudden death of the heir caused instability in the power system. – In the autumn of 1391, the emperor's heir, Zhu Biao, inspected Shaanxi to assess the possibility of relocating the capital to Xi'an.[177] However, he fell ill on his return and died in 1392, creating uncertainty over the imperial succession.

Assessment:

  • Alternatively, some argue that the unification of the country under a centralized state with an all-powerful emperor during the Ming dynasty was the culmination of a long process that began with the Qin and Han dynasties. Sentence is a bit complex. Also "some argued" is a bit of WP:WEASEL
  • Similar for this: Although the peak of his political system crumbled in a civil war shortly after his death, other results of the Hongwu Emperor's reforms, such as local and regional institutions for Ming state administration and self-government, as well as the financial and examination systems, proved to be resilient

That's all the comments I have.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 06:55, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@ZKang123 All done. Min968 (talk) 10:11, 9 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Placing Support.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 10:43, 11 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

RoySmith

[edit]

I've already reviewed a couple of these (Jianwen and Yongle), I might as well do this one as well. As is my wont with long articles, I'll attack this in sections over a few days. RoySmith (talk) 01:13, 19 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

One general comment is that at 8700 words, this is getting into the area where reviewers are going to start complaining about the length. It's possible this is what dissuaded people from reviewing it the first couple of times it was here. Articles usually get longer during reviews; you'll need to be vigilant to keep that from happening. Look at every word and sentence and ask yourself if it's really pulling its weight or if it could be cut without loss to the overall article.

  • The article has been reduced to about 8202 words, approximately the same length as the Yongle Emperor article that was recently successfully nominated for FA. Min968 (talk) 09:17, 20 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Lead
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  • The first sentence should state this this is in China.
  • Born in 1328 into a poor peasant family doesn't peasant imply poor?
  • in 1367 he formally recognized Han Lin'er recognized him as what?
  • At this point, I'm just one paragraph into the lead and I'm already struggling to keep up. We've got the Ming dynasty, the Yuan dynasty, the Red Turban rebels, the Mongols, the Kingdom of Wu, and the Song (dynasty, I guess). How are all these entities related to each other?
  • Zhu chose to rename his state What state is that? I'm guessing the Kingdom of Wu?
    • All done.
Early life
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  • had served in the Song army resisting the Mongol invasion explain to the reader what Song was. And who the Mongols were. These things may seem obvious to you, but many readers will know nothing about Chinese history and will quickly get lost.
  • wandered as a mendicant monk many readers will be unfamiliar with "mendicant" so that needs explaining.
  • people of eastern Henan and western Anhui Explain what Henan and Auhui are.
  • during which he learned to read, write, and study the basics of Buddhism this makes it sound like he learned to study the basics of Buddhism, which is not, I suspect, what you meant. He studied, he didn't learn to study.
    • All done.
Rise to power
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  • The harsh taxation policies, famine, and catastrophic flooding in the Yellow River basin, caused by inadequate flood control measures the harsh taxation was not caused by inadequate flood control.
  • counteroffensive and advance along the Grand Canal what is this grand canal and where is it?
  • There's lots of action here and lots of unfamiliar place names. A map really is essential. Enquire at WP:LAB/MAP to see if somebody can create one for you.
    • File:Red Turban.png, is it okay?
  • Guo submitted to Peng, while his four colleagues submitted to Zhao.[22] What does it mean to "submit" in this context?
  • Chen Zhaoxian (陳兆先), the nephew and successor of Chen Yexian, surrendered to Zhu with 36,000 troops. Who had 36,000 troops? Chen or Zhu? The wording is ambigious.
  • one division per prefecture. what is a prefecture?
    • All done.
  • Zhu controlled the southwestern part of Jiangsu, all of Anhui south of the Yangtze River, and the inland of Zhejiang. Again, confusion over where these places are. The only of these I've ever heard of is the Yangtze River, but I don't actually know where it is. This really needs maps to show this graphically.
  • By 1393, these territories had a population of 7.8 million. I don't have a feel for whether this is a lot. Is it 1% of the total population of China? 10%? 90%?
    • Done.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to stop here. I started this yesterday and got as far as I could before getting confused. So now I'm picking this up the next morning and not making any more progress. There's just too many people and too many events to keep straight and a jumbled narrative. As I said earlier, maps are essential. I would also suggest some sort of graphical timeline which could show the overlapping time spans of the various events. RoySmith (talk) 12:07, 19 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@RoySmith Thank you for taking the time. Min968 (talk) 13:09, 19 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy to have been able to be of some assistance. I do encourage you to keep working on this. It's an important subject, but a hard one to cover due to the vastness of the topic. I see you mentioned File:Red Turban.png above. I don't think it's a great map from a graphical point of view, but more importantly, it's not really tied to the text. The right process is to write about the events you want to present to the reader, then generate a map which illustrates exactly those events, allowing the reader to use the textual and graphical presentations to support each other. As I mentioned, the folks at WP:LAB/MAP are good at this sort of thing and I highly recommend that you take advantage of their services. Producing the maps needed to properly illustrate all of these events is a lot of work, but for a topic of this importance at the FA level, it's an investment that's worth making. RoySmith (talk) 13:19, 19 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@RoySmith I just added a map, not sure if it's okay. Min968 (talk) 13:41, 19 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with that map is it shows so much stuff, it's impossible to find the specific places that are referenced in the text. I know I'm being repetitive here, but I strongly encourage you to work with the folks at WP:LAB/MAP to develop maps which are customized to show the events you talk about in the text. RoySmith (talk) 13:46, 19 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@RoySmith I have submitted a request at Wikipedia:Graphics Lab/Map workshop. Min968 (talk) 14:02, 19 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Min968 Any progress…? I agree that the type of map @RoySmith talks about would help greatly. Something like File:Three Kingdoms timelapse.gif for example. BorgQueen (talk) 14:43, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@BorgQueen I submitted the request, but I haven't heard back yet. I guess it will take a while. Min968 (talk) 14:45, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Min968 I'm not terribly experienced at this but I can have a go at making these maps if you're interested. I think something from the ground up like File:Ukr 1941-1942 annotations colours dnieper borders(var.2a).png would be ideal for this article (I've also done simple POIs like File:India map thuggee.png or more stylised like File:Battle of france positional complete.png). Let me know if you'd like to proceed or if you'd rather wait for someone at WP:LAB/MAP who will have more expertise. I wouldn't be able to do a timelapse. Joko2468 (talk) 20:20, 13 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Joko2468 Thanks for the offer! I'd be happy to proceed with your maps. I really appreciate your help! Min968 (talk) 05:29, 14 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Great @Min968; F.Y.I., making these maps generally involves tracing over and synthesising together various maps in Inkscape-- I think I'm going to need your help to find sources. What are the maps like in your books? Is there anything useful? I have this to pinpoint locations. I'll also try to look around for political maps of the warlords. Joko2468 (talk) 08:35, 14 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Joko2468 I'm not very familiar with maps, to be honest. The books I usually use as references tend to have maps like these: [20] [21] [22] Min968 (talk) 09:56, 14 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent thank you, and no worries, I'll do some research and see what there is to work with. If you know of anymore maps that display political borders or the paths of armies please share them. Joko2468 (talk) 13:58, 14 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I think I've got enough to do a map of the warlords 1350-1360 (with Zhu's territory as of 1360) and of the route of the northern expedition. I haven't found anything on Zhu's expansion in the 1360s-- am I right in thinking File:Říše Ming 1368-1387.svg is unreliable? It's sourced to only prose. Joko2468 (talk) 16:31, 14 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Min968, here's the political map:
Everything's easily changeable so feel free to request any and all amendments you might want. Off the back of this, the article switches between Jiqing and Nanjing, using both in prose but only Nanjing in the lede and section title. FWIW, the maps use Nanjing-- happy to change this to whatever you decide. I think it should also be linked at the first appearance in the main body.
I have enough to do a map of the northern expeditions as described in the article but I'm unable to read Chinese, nor to judge which of the captured cities are most appropriate for inclusion. If you're interested in this, I think I'd need to email you the original Chinese map of the campaign so that you might be able to work this out. Thanks. Joko2468 (talk) 10:46, 16 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
May I suggest reducing the scale to give a greater geographic context? Or perhaps making it an inset view against the base File:China blank map grey.svg for orientation? It took me a while to figure out that this is the northern end of the Yellow Sea, and the little bit of land at the very NE corner of the map is a piece of what's now North Korea, right? RoySmith (talk) 17:44, 16 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@RoySmith The latest version is here. I'd appreciate your feedback. Min968 (talk) 17:30, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Missed this, apologies. Joko2468 (talk) 17:35, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
It's better, but it's still hard to see where this is in a geographic context, which is why I suggested doing an inset against File:China blank map grey.svg RoySmith (talk) 17:35, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies @RoySmith but I'm unfamiliar with this. Is this what you had in mind? If not, would you be able to clarify for me? Joko2468 (talk) 07:51, 20 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@RoySmith, correct-- I've hopefully addressed this, let me know if there's anything else you would like amended. Joko2468 (talk) 17:35, 19 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Here's the second map @RoySmith and @Min968, please let me know of any amendments I should make.
Joko2468 (talk) 18:54, 26 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Векочел

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I will review this. Векочел (talk) 08:43, 25 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

BorgQueen

[edit]
  • His maternal grandfather was a fortune-teller and seer who, in his youth, had served in the army of the Song dynasty during its final struggle against the Mongols before the dynasty fell in 1279.: "seer" is somewhat vague and may mean several different things, such as a person with prophetic abilities (who literally "sees" the future), or, more generally, someone who foretells the future through divination. As the sentence already says he was a fortune-teller, "seer" doesn't add much. I don't know what the original Chinese word for that, but maybe calling him a fortune-teller would be enough? Does the source specifically call him a seer? BorgQueen (talk) 12:00, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    @BorgQueen Zhu Yuanzhang recollected the vivid impressions gained when he was very young of his maternal grandfather, then a very old man, apparently somewhat literate, who had been a professional fortune-teller and seer, and who had told him stories about his experiences with the Song armies fleeing the Mongols in 1279. Mote 2003. p. 544 Min968 (talk) 12:46, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    Very well, I’m happy with that. BorgQueen (talk) 13:08, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • To address the issue of landlessness, the government gave peasants free land, with peasants in the north receiving 15 mu per field and 2 per garden, and southern peasants receiving 16 mu. Hereditary soldiers were given 50 mu.[131] I’m guessing "mu" is a unit. If this unit isn’t explained elsewhere in the article, it could use a parenthetical gloss or a footnote, along with an appropriate link (if there’s a Wikipedia article on it). BorgQueen (talk) 13:54, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    @BorgQueen I've added a link to mu so readers can easily see that it's a Chinese unit of area. Min968 (talk) 14:02, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    @Min968 The link certainly helps; however MOS:NOFORCELINK says: Use a link when appropriate, but as far as possible do not force a reader to use that link to understand the sentence. The text needs to make sense to readers who cannot follow links. Users may print articles or read offline, and Wikipedia content may be encountered in republished form, often without links. BorgQueen (talk) 14:14, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    @BorgQueen Done. Min968 (talk) 14:18, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • In 1368, the Emperor resided in Kaifeng during the months of June–August and October–November, leading to the city being known as Beijing ('Northern Capital') Apparently, this Beijing isn’t Beijing, is it? This might confuse the reader, which is why I linked Kaifeng, which you then delinked. I’m aware Kaifeng is already linked earlier in the article, but I thought it was contextually important enough to justify linking it again in this section. Alternatively, perhaps a footnote making it clear that "Beijing" here is an honorific title temporarily applied to Kaifeng, not the modern capital. What do you think? BorgQueen (talk) 16:09, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    @BorgQueen Done. Min968 (talk) 16:23, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • The government abolished 3,000 Buddhist and Taoist monasteries, and limited each county to one monastery with a maximum of two monks. 214,000 Buddhist and 300,000 Taoist monks and nuns returned to secular life.[131] The figures of 214,000 Buddhist and 300,000 Taoist monks and nuns seem implausibly precise for the period. Does the source present these as official government records, or are they modern estimates? If there is uncertainty, the wording should reflect that (e.g. "about" or "according to official records"). BorgQueen (talk) 16:59, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    @BorgQueen Some 3000 Buddhist and Daoist monasteries were dismantled. In conjunction with this, 214,000 Buddhist and 300,000 Daoist monks and nuns were defrocked and their property confiscated. Li 2010 p. 30 Min968 (talk) 17:13, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    @Min968 The use of "Some 3000" indicates approximation for the number of monasteries, which needs the same qualifier ("some", etc) in our article too, reflecting the source. BorgQueen (talk) 17:31, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    @BorgQueen Done. Min968 (talk) 17:36, 10 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • The "Assessment" section could use a bit of rephrasing. For example:
    • … laid the groundwork for a prosperous and thriving era is redundant. "Prosperous era" is enough.
    • In recognition of his achievements sounds slightly celebratory. "Accordingly" or "In keeping with this assessment" is more neutral.
    • Modern historians, influenced by… is too generalizing. Not all modern historians share these assumptions, and "anti-monarchist mindset" is especially problematic unless the source explicitly says that.
      • On the other hand, modern historians, both Chinese and non-Chinese, who have written in the shadow of twentieth-century dictators and under the influence of current antimonarchical ideology and psychohistorical theory have tended to view Hung-wu as a tyrant and dwell on the capricious executions and recurrent terror of his reign—and the mental imbalance that these apparently reflect. Dreyer 1982. p. 152

BorgQueen (talk) 10:49, 11 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@BorgQueen Pinging Min968 (talk) 11:07, 11 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@BorgQueen So, at the moment, I'm not sure where this review stands. Min968 (talk) 16:47, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Min968 oh, I think I'll wait for the map RoySmith suggested. I'm sure it'll be worth the wait. BorgQueen (talk) 16:58, 12 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Source and image review

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What's "Science and Civilisation in China " in File:Ming Dynasty eruptor proto-cannon.jpg? ALT text, image placement etc seem fine otherwise. For a Chinese emperor, that's surely a very western source list. Everything else seems fine and consistent. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 13:02, 15 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus Fixed. Joseph Needham (1986). Science and Civilization in China: Volume 5, Part 7, Military Technology; the Gunpowder Epic. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0521303583. p.266 Min968 (talk) 13:50, 15 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

George F. Durand

[edit]
Nominator(s):  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 20:34, 12 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about one of the most prominent Victorian architects in southern Ontario. Durand came from a family of builders in London, Ontario, and his short life he was celebrated for his work. Although little about Durand the person has been written since his death, his works have been extensively discussed and been recognized under the Ontario Heritage Act and as National Historic Sites of Canada. This article represents a comprehensive overview, introducing Durand and giving a basic introduction to his works (and hey, pretty pictures!). I'd like to thank Whonting for the detailed GA review, which I think helped tremendously.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 20:34, 12 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

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Image review passed ―Howard • 🌽33 12:13, 13 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by A.Cython

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An interesting biography about a Canadian architect. Overall, the article is well-written and sourced. I only have some minor comments.

Hi A.Cython, and thank you for the review. I have responded above. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 10:29, 15 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

RoySmith

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I don't know if I'll do a full review or not, but for now I just want to note that the image gallery in the Selected works section should not be using hover for the captions per MOS:NOHOVER. RoySmith (talk) 13:23, 17 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Digging in a bit more...

  • I'm finding Early life and career a little confusing. When you say Durand was sent to study, it's not clear if you're talking about James or George. What I usually do in these sorts of sections is switch to using first names to refer to the family members. Also, is it important to note William Robinson relationship to Thomas Young? I don't think it adds anything to our understanding of George, so I'd leave that out.
    • Added "George". As for Young, at the time Canadian architects did not generally receive formal training in schools, academies, etc., but instead apprenticed formally or informally and learned the trade. Mentioning Robinson's link to Young, an established architect (despite the abysmal quality of his article), both establishes Robinson's credentials and positions Durand within the broader constellation of Canadian architecture. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 13:38, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • During the construction of the Parliament Buildings in Ottawa what year was this?
    • Parliament was built between 1859 and 1876. Durand was certainly not there the entire time - he would have been nine at the time of groundbreaking - and the source doesn't give a date span. I haven't been able to confirm his involvement in Parliament's construction in other sources. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 13:38, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • lauded by Commissioner W.A. Rice what was he commissioner of?
    • Not in the source, and I've not been able to confirm his position anywhere else. The source cites a letter addressed to Durand that was held by his great-granddaughter, and that is the type of material that would not have more information. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 13:38, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • After some time in Maine at a granite works, as above, what span of years was he there? And what was he doing? I wouldn't think a granite works would need an architect.
    • Source says one year, so 1857–1858. As for the specific position, unclear; Tausky & Distefano cite an obituary, which would not have gone into detail about something before his rise to prominence.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 13:38, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • and the Charles Murray House where was this?
  • preparing a new separate school model where was this?
  • In London, the men completed the Talbot Street Baptist Church, a 920-capacity building with prominent pinnacles and a bell-cote, as well as the Masonic Temple and Grand Opera House (1880–1881), a four-storey multifunctional building that occupied 43 by 34 metres (142 ft × 110 ft) on one of the city's main intersections.[b][17] I'd break that up into two sentences.
  • reported aggregate tenders of CA$250,000 in 1882 Use {{inflation}}, and likewise in other places you cite monetary values.
    • The inflation template is used in footnotes. I normally use it in running text, but given how many numbers I felt that the footnote approach worked better here (articles by Schrocat normally use that format). — Chris Woodrich (talk) 13:38, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Later life and death section seems a bit odd. I would expect it to be discussing what he did after he ended his professional carrer. I'd break out about the first half of it into a Late career (or something like that) section, then pick up with "In 1889, he chaired a meeting ..."
    Um, to be honest, I'm not too excited about that section heading. RoySmith (talk) 14:32, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    Alright, tried something else. I'm not keen on one-paragraph sections (I think it's a potential MOS:OVERSECTION issue) but the paragraph is well developed and stands alright on its own. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 16:29, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Durand was contracted by Minister of Education George William Ross to design a new building for Upper Canada College in Toronto,[30] after touring several schools in the Eastern United States.[31] this is a bit confusing. Was it Ross who did the touring or Durand? Or did Ross want Durand to tour these other schools and then come back and design a new building?
  • focus on his health, with Fred Henry in charge of everyday business this is the first we've heard of Henry. Who is he?
    • An apprentice
  • have in attendance over two hundred Freemasons I'm guessing Durand was a Freemason; this should be mentioned somewhere earlier.
  • His estate was liquidated and distributed to his widow I think you want "and the proceeds distrubuted ..."
  • Nancy Z. Tausky and Lynne D. Distefano write in their survey Perhaps "wrote" (past tense)?
  • Under Style, it's really weird what you did with the Perth County Courthouse images. It took me a while to figure out that it's two distinct images placed adjacent to each other to look like one. I strongly advise you don't do that. If you really want to take two images and make them into a composite, do that off-line and upload the composite as one image and clearly label it as a composite. Or, lay these out as two images showing different details. Also, don't specify absolute width in pixels.
    • Is there any specific guideline that precludes {{Multiple image}} from being used in FAs? Unfortunately, the template also doesn't allow a floating width. I can replace with a composite, but given that we already have a template that can handle two images I don't see a reason to
      • Thinking it over, I've decided to swap in a composite. I still think multiple image is more elegant, but unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a way to use it and avoid having a specified absolute width. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 13:47, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
A close-up view of four arched windows surrounded by polychromatic masonry
High arched windows
A close-up view of a terra cotta nameplate surrounded by polychromatic masonry
Terra cotta relief
Details of the Perth County Courthouse. Polychromatic masonry can be seen in both examples.

I'm still having issues here. The real problem is not the use of {{Multiple image}} but the way the two images were juxtaposed made it look like an actual photo of the building, i.e. those windows really are immediately adjacent to the terra cotta relief. What I was hoping for (and my apologies for not elucidating this well) was a layout which makes it clear that this is two distinct details from different parts of the building. Maybe this works better?

  • I had included a solid black line in the composite to make the distinction, but I've decided to refactor (though I went with a header to better contextualize the images). — Chris Woodrich (talk) 16:29, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yeah, modulo hard-coding the width (which I've boldly fixed), I like that version. RoySmith (talk) 18:55, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
      • 200px is quite small on a 4k monitor... I do wish the template allowed autoscaling. I've moved to 300px, but if push comes to shove its not something I feel too strongly about either way. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 20:12, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
        Well, let's see what other people say. If nobody else objects, I'll (grudgingly) go along with that, but I'm not seeing what's so special about this image that the defaults aren't good enough.
        I do feel obligation to note that MOS:IMGSIZE says "Except with very good reason, a fixed width in pixels (e.g. 17px) should not be specified, because it ignores the user's base width setting." That being said, I will confess that I used frame-width = 250 on the map in Big Duck, claiming that "to match the default image thumbnails" is a very good reason :-) In general, I think it's best to just go with defaults because whatever you pick that looks good for you, may not make sense for somebody else who has a different size screen, or is viewing wikipedia on their X-Box, or using some kind of assistive technology, etc. The more you let things go with the defaults, the more likely it is those environments will be able to do something sane with the image. RoySmith (talk) 20:36, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
        Agree. I tend to have my images larger (though the new default large is larger than the previous 300px default), in part to break up the text a bit. I've shrunk to 250 - not as bad as the default 200, and as you mentioned, standard for most users. I do wish I understood code well enough to try and get the template to use upright scaling factor, but that Wikicode may as well be Greek to me. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 21:06, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • After Durand's death, initial reports suggested that George Lloyd of Detroit, Michigan, would acquire it.[53] what is "it"?
  • able to follow developments in American and French architecture through his subscriptions to ... Is it really noteworthy that an architect would subscribe to professional journals in his field?
    • Not on its own, but this contextualizes his evolving eclectic style discussed above. He was relatively on top of Richardsonian Romanesque and other newly emerging styles through his access to international publications.

That's it for me. Overall, I like it. I'll probably come back another day and give it another read-through. Most likely after other reviewers have had a chance to look at it. RoySmith (talk) 12:29, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not really up on how {{sfn}} is supposed to work, but you've got: 

cite book
|title=Victorian Architecture in London and Southwestern Ontario: Symbols of Aspiration
|jstor=10.3138/j.ctvfrxbbj

I don't think the jstor field is right. You've got a DOI stuffed in there. It's supposed to have a JSTOR id.

I just gave this another quick read. I'm happy with what I see, so support based mostly on WP:FACR 1a ("prose is engaging and of a professional standard") RoySmith (talk) 17:00, 23 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Z1720

[edit]

The inline citations rely upon "Tausky & Distefano 2018" for most of the sourcing, so I did a search for additional sources that could potentially be used as inline citations. I only found three sources that could be added to the article:

  • "Early Stages: Theatre in Ontario 1800 - 1914" by Saddlemyer, Anne, [23]: Project Muse access can be requested at WP:LIBRARY. The information concerns his involvement in the Grand Opera House in London and Petrolia town hall.
  • "Toronto, No Mean City: Third Edition, Revised" by Eric Arthur and Stephen Otto [24]: has a short bio on Durand, mostly related to Upper Canada College
  • "100 Fascinating Londoners" [25] The entry is written by Tausky, but its not much information.

Once these are assessed (and incorporated as deemed necessary) I'll take a closer look at the article. Z1720 (talk) 02:14, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you for the look. I appreciate that Tausky and Distefano are heavily cited here, but that's indeed the lay of the literature - theirs is the only book-length source dealing with the firm, and thus cited more heavily. I have incorporated Fascinating Londoners and will look at for the other two after work. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 10:49, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    • Alright, apparently I had Early Stages sitting around from when I wrote Victoria Hall. Z1720, I've reviewed the other two sources and incorporated one piece of information from No Mean City. Early Stages does not have much biographic information, though between its coverage of the Masonic Temple and Tausky & Distefano, there seems to be enough to write an article on the short-lived hall. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 11:09, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • I see that RoySmith started a review today. Please ping me after it is concluded, and I'll take a further look. As for Tausky and Distefano source: having only one book on a topic is typical of Canadian history, so I am not surprised on the reliance in this article (I had the same problem with John Rolph and Types Riot). I was not able to find additional sources for Durand in databases I have access to, so I think this article fulfils 1c of WP:WIAFA. Z1720 (talk) 18:27, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    Other than continuing to nag Chris about the image and the section heading, I've done all I'm going to do for now, so don't let me hold you up. RoySmith (talk) 18:30, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, actually, I was curious so I asked Claude if there was anything else @Crisco 1492 I'll leave it up to you to look at the suggestions there and figure out if any of them are useful. RoySmith (talk) 18:35, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    That's interesting. It does reflect my understanding of the literature. The letter of recommendation from Fuller is quoted at length in the source, and reads "Mr G.F. Durand was for upwards of six years my principal and confidential assistant and during that period had chief control of all the works at the new Capitol of this State which was then being erected under my Superintendence; his duties required extraordinary skill and accuracy and although all matters in relation to these works were subject annually to the most severe Legislative investigations requiring some very complicated calculations and detailed estimates, in no case were the services or the evidence or the integrity of Mr Durand called into question". "Upward of six years" suggests to me that Durand was with him as early as 1869, which would have been just before the Albany contract (and put him at nineteen, a feasible age for an apprenticeship), but that's veering a bit close to OR territory. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 18:43, 6 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Prose review
[edit]
  • I made edits to the article. Feel free to revert if unhelpful.
  • "In London, the men completed the Talbot Street Baptist Church, a 920-capacity building with prominent pinnacles and a bell-cote. The men, both Freemasons, collaborated on the Masonic Temple and Grand Opera House" A little repetitive with "the men". I would have edited myself, but I am not sure how best to phrase it, so I will leave it to others to suggest.
  • "The commission for the latter two, however, was likely held by Durand's employee John Mackenzie Moore." As a non-architecture person, I do not know what this sentence is trying to tell me. Is it saying that Moore probably designed these buildings and not Durand?
    • No, rather that Moore was likely the one who did the business end of things. As the source puts it "The commission for the hall was probably obtained by Moore: it was he rather than Durand who signed the tender call. As with the Stratford pump house, however, certain aspects of the design suggest that Durand participated to some extent in its creation, if only in an advisory capacity." I've tried to refactor. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 04:00, 7 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 1887, he designed an expansion, including a chancel and pulpit, for St. Andrew's Presbyterian Church" There are lots of St. Andrew's Presbyterian Churches, so it might be helpful to state which city this was in (I assume London, although a St. Andrew church is also mentioned in Petrolia at the end of the paragraph).
    One possibility is something like "Most of Durand's work was in London: building1, building2, building3, etc. In addition he designed building4 in some city, and building5 in some other city", if you can make that work with the rest of the flow of the article. RoySmith (talk) 09:43, 7 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    I've refactored a bit to minimize repetition of London while still maintaining flow. It should still clearly indicate where the commissions were. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 12:24, 7 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The firm remained under Moore through the 1920s, though at times he worked with Fred Henry and J. Vicar Munro,[58] and continued to operate into the 1990s." The phrasing gives the impression that Moore ran the firm into the 1990s, which is of course not the case. Maybe, "The firm remained under Moore through the 1920s, though at times he worked with Fred Henry and J. Vicar Munro; the firm continued to operate after Moore's death into the 1990s." or something similar (I know there is a note that gives more detail but a short clarification in the prose might be helpful as well.)
  • I'm not a big fan of the "Selected works" section: I think it's better to incorporate the images where they are talked about in the article, so that readers can see the features that the prose talks about, instead of discovering at the end of the article that there are pictures of these buildings. The "multiple images" template can be used to avoid MOS:SANDWICH and a huge list of images. It might make the images smaller, but I think readers are knowledgeable enough to know that clicking on the image makes it bigger on desktop, and most readers are looking at images on mobile devices anyway. This is not something that would cause me to oppose, but I hope it is considered.
    • While I agree that that would make sense for one or two items, the sheer number of works that are notable—often designated—makes that less than attractive to me. Just counting the designated sites alone, there are six images (the only image of the "A" Block we have seems to be low quality). Each work is linked on first mention, as well as in the infobox; the only two items that are not linked are houses. Going through existing architect FAs, I'm seeing a tendency for larger images (Matthew Brettingham uses upright 1.4x for several items; William Bruce (architect) similarly uses 1.3x on some items). I feel that a well curated gallery, as here, is a better option, as it allows larger images while simultaneously enabling the curious to spot certain trends. (From an aesthetic perspective, I preferred the hover format, but as Roy pointed out our guidelines tend to view that as suboptimally accessible). — Chris Woodrich (talk) 04:00, 7 July 2026 (UTC) edited 04:01, 7 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Optional: Consider putting the Works cited into two columns to reduce white space.
    • Works cited is coded at 40em, which renders in two columns on desktop (well, above certain resolutions... on my resolution, it gives three columns for sfns and two for bibliographic information). — Chris Woodrich (talk) 04:00, 7 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Those are my prose thoughts. Please ping upon response. Z1720 (talk) 02:11, 7 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support. Concerns addressed and resolved. If my suggestion was not implemented above, its fine for now and I can be pinged if someone else has a similar concern. Z1720 (talk) 14:53, 7 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • Refs to The Independent sometimes include page number and sometimes not - it does appear in the Works cited section so isn't necessary, but if you want to include it should be consistent
  • FN32: rather than nesting {{sfn}} within ref tags, suggest {{sfnm}} without ref tags or {{harv}} with
  • Why do some short cites use n.d. and others just leave out date?
  • Arthur: edition statement shouldn't be part of title

Die with a Smile

[edit]
Nominator(s): MarioSoulTruthFan (talk), CHr0m4tiko0 (talk) and Sricsi (talk) 20:29, 7 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about one of the most popular songs of 2024 by Lady Gaga and Bruno Mars. It was highly praised by critics received several awards, inducing two nominations at the Grammy Awards and one award at the same certainty. Furthermore, the music video was also praised by critics and received various awards nominations. This article received various comments during the first FAC nomination which were included. It was also submitted for a peer review in order to receive more comments and other issues to be addressed. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 20:29, 7 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Nineteen Ninety-Four guy

[edit]
  • "American record producer and songwriter D'Mile recalled that Mars "had the hook, at least the lyrics or theme to the hook, about being next to someone if the world was ending". He was unsure, however, how to develop it further and held the idea for a year before its release." You could merge these statements with a semicolon, and consider revising into "He was, however, unsure"
  • "American record producer Andrew Watt was invited, alongside Gaga and Michael Polansky, American entrepreneur and venture capitalist, to hear the song at Mars's studio." For a parallel structure, consider revising into "American entrepreneur and venture capitalist Michael Polansky"
  • "Regarding their collaboration, Gaga highlighted Mars's skill, musicianship and forward-thinking. Mars described the collaboration as a privilege and said her contribution added a distinctive element to the song." These could be merged with the Oxford comma preceding and
  • Writing and recording section reads dull due to repeated use of stative verbs for attribution, e.g., said and noted. Please vary sentence structure and length to improve flow and provide rhythm. Also, you may have to paraphrase that opening sentence to minimize direct quotations
  • "In June 2024, Mars told the Las Vegas Review-Journal that he hoped to collaborate with Gaga on a song or join her onstage during her Jazz & Piano residency in Las Vegas. On August 8, Hits Daily Double's "Rumor Mill" reported speculation about a possible collaboration between the two artists, allegedly titled "Die with a Smile" and expected to be released later that month." These seem beyond the scope of the Release section
  • "Die with a Smile" is a pop, pop-soul, and soft rock song, that evokes the emotional style of a sentimental ballad. with influences from country music." Please fix erroneous punctuation marks
  • "According to the sheet music published by BMG Rights Management on Musicnotes, "Die with a Smile" was composed in the key of A major with a slow tempo of 52 beats per minute in 6/8 time signature." Since this is a technical fact about the song, in-text attribution is unnecessary.
  • "Lyrically, it is an intense love declaration in which the narrators' feelings for each other against a hypothetical end-of-the-world scenario, Gaga has described as an "apocalyptic love song". Kinda confusing. Please revise so you can also fix a punctuation error.
  • "The chorus emphasizes the desire to be "next to you" if "the world was ending" or "our time on Earth was through", framing the relationship within a sense of urgency." How about, "The chorus conveys a sense of urgency in the relationship with its emphasis on the desire to be "next to you" if "the world was ending" or "our time on Earth was through"?
  • "Capital's Abbie Reynolds described the song as a reminder not to take love for granted, noting lines such as "Nobody's promised tomorrow" and "I'ma love you every night like it's the last night." How about, "Capital's Abbie Reynolds described lines such as "Nobody's promised tomorrow" and "I'ma love you every night like it's the last night" as reminders not to take love for granted"? The verb "noted" should only be used to describe facts, not opinions.
  • "while Billboard Argentina noted its focus on "finding happiness and peace amid adversity" Ditto
  • "Talking about the lyrics, Gaga further added "What has been added before" to begin with?
  • Critical reception needs some work to minimize problems highlighted on WP:RECEPTION regarding the "A said B" structure. Also, "Many reviewers praised the vocal interplay" is MOS:WEASEL, unless ofc you can provide reliable, high-quality sources for this.
  • "In her interview with the Los Angeles Times, Gaga disclosed that..." disclosed is a word-to-watch, and LA Times is neither italicized nor wikilinked
  • ""Die With a Smile" reached the number one spot on the Billboard Hot 100 for the chart dated January 11, 2025, after selling 6,000 copies, reaching a 59.7 million radio audience, and getting 27.1 million streams." How about, "After selling 6,000 copies, "Die With a Smile" reached the number one spot on the Billboard Hot 100 for the chart dated January 11, 2025, garnering 59.7 million radio listeners as well as 27.1 million streams"?
  • "Die With a Smile" not only was the longest-charting song with a female lead but also the longest-charting duet ever in the top 10 of the Billboard Hot 100" is borderline POV. Please revise the statement in a detached tone.
  • "Following the release of Mayhem, various journalists discussed how "Die with a Smile" functions within the album. Gaga has described Mayhem as an intentionally eclectic project that moves between contrasting sounds and moods before ultimately resolving in love, framing the album as a complete experience rather than a strictly cohesive genre piece." Second sentence feels misplaced, as it doesn't support the argument the opening sentence is making. While we're at it, the section where these are placed also suffers from the A said B structure affecting the Critical response section. Please revise to improve flow and readability. Nineteen Ninety-Four guy (talk) 13:58, 8 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@Nineteen Ninety-Four guy: I have addressed comments to the best of my ability. Please take a second look and thank you so much! MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 23:02, 8 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

"It was characterized as a romantic, lightly apocalyptic slow dance and positioned within both vintage and modern pop sensibilities, and characterized by polished production and accessibility." The verb characterized is used twice. Please vary. Nineteen Ninety-Four guy (talk) 05:37, 9 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Done! Thank you for the quick fixes on the article as well. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 17:57, 9 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Happy with the changes. I give my support. Nineteen Ninety-Four guy (talk) 18:24, 9 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

[edit]

Here'll be a source review from me! RedShellMomentum 22:13, 22 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This table lists 9 random passages from throughout the article (4.8% of 187 total passages). These passages contain 15 inline citations (4.3% of 350 in the article). Generated with the Veracity user script. RedShellMomentum 22:13, 22 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for taking on the source review. Since this review concerns source quality, I would appreciate your view on an unresolved sourcing disagreement between me and the co-nominator. The article currently includes a New York Post year-end list entry. My concern is not that the source is formally prohibited: I am aware that WP:RSP says the New York Post is marginally reliable for entertainment coverage. Rather, my concern is that "marginally reliable" is a weak basis for evaluative critical material in a Featured Article candidate.
In this case, the source is being used only for a year-end list entry in a table, not for a substantive point discussed in the prose. I therefore do not think its encyclopedic value outweighs the source-quality concern. The New York Post is also a conservative tabloid with a weaker reputation than the music and entertainment publications normally expected in high-quality music articles. Given that FAC should reflect the best available sources rather than the minimum allowed by RSP, I think it should be removed, especially when stronger and more established music journalism sources are readily available.
The co-nominator's view is that RSP permits the source for entertainment coverage, so it can be used here. Could you please weigh in on whether the New York Post is appropriate for this use in an FA candidate, particularly for evaluative year-end-list material? Thanks! Sricsi (talk) 22:28, 25 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@MarioSoulTruthFan, CHr0m4tiko0, and Sricsi: Source review is all good, support. I also have a peer review for "Dick in a Box" up, any of you may leave comments there if you wish. As for the NYP source, if RSP permits the source for entertainment coverage, then it should be somewhat fine. RedShellMomentum 08:28, 27 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the source review, left some comments on yours. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 22:49, 27 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Reference # Letter Source Archive Status Notes
Gaga and Mars interacted on social media before confirming the collaboration and announcing that the song and its accompanying music video would be released on August 16, 2024.
6 b variety.com web.archive.org ✅
15 billboard.com ✅
16 uproxx.com web.archive.org ✅
"Die with a Smile" opens with Mars taking the first verse and Gaga the second, after which both vocalists play off each other for the remainder of the track.
45 usatoday.com web.archive.org ✅
Jake Viswanath of Bustle compared the song's lyrical perspective to Gaga's 2011 single "The Edge of Glory",
19 c bustle.com web.archive.org ✅
Following the release of Mayhem, critics examined the role of "Die with a Smile" within its structure. The song was frequently regarded as an effective closer, with its cinematic and reflective tone seen as providing a coherent conclusion to the record.
78 readdork.com web.archive.org ✅
79 elle.com web.archive.org ✅
It spent five non-consecutive weeks at the top of the Hot 100, becoming Gaga's first song to spend more than one week at number one since "Born This Way" in 2011, and Mars's third song to top the chart for five weeks or more.
95 billboard.com web.archive.org ✅
Other countries in Europe where it reached number one were Croatia, Greece, and Portugal.
128 a tophit.com ✅
129 a ifpi.gr web.archive.org ✅
130 a portuguesecharts.com ✅
In its first week, it garnered 75.1 million streams across various platforms and sold 31,000 copies, debuting at number two on the Global 200 chart. It was Gaga's first top ten hit and Mars's third since the chart's inception in September 2020.
148 billboard.com ✅
In 2024, Mars performed a solo piano version of "Die with a Smile" as part of a medley. He first sang it during the Brazil leg of his Bruno Mars Live tour (2022–2024).
183 cnnbrasil.com.br ✅
184 billboard.com.br web.archive.org ✅
In December 2025, Norwegian musician Sondre Lerche released a version of the song as part of his annual tradition to cover a pop song during the holiday season, in partnership with producer Matias Tellez and the website Stereogum.
208 stereogum.com ✅

Camilasdandelions

[edit]
  • Archive all sources
  • Do not use double quotations in citations |title=
  • Ref 1 is alive btw
  • Ref 19 {{cite magazine}}
  • [[Interscope Records|Interscope]] ➡️ [[Interscope]] (MOS:NOPIPE; also in Release history section)
  • Musically, "Die with a Smile" is a sentimental ballad
  • France by SNEP ➡️ France by National Syndicate of Phonographic Publishing (SNEP)
  • demo can be wikilinked
  • He was, however, unsure: Is he D'Mile? or Mars?
  • pitching an early version of the song for Lady Gaga's Harlequin (2024) or for the film Joker: Folie à Deux (2024), in which Gaga stars. The former project is a companion album to the film. ➡️ pitching an early version of the song for the 2024 film Joker: Folie à Deux in which Lady Gaga stars, or her companion album to the film, Harlequin (2024).
  • chord can be wikilinked
  • American entrepreneur and venture capitalist Michael Polansky: MOS:SOB
  • Should left and right be italicized? I've seen some people are against to this in their reviews
  • Remove blockquote and just use double quotations, or trim it to wikivoice a bit.
  • Gaga and Mars interacted on social media before confirming the collaboration and announcing that the song and its accompanying music video would be released on August 16, 2024.: Too long, split this
  • cover art can be wikilinked
  • platforms by Interscope: Why not Interscope Records
  • streaming: Target music streaming service (also in Release history section)
  • inclusion on Mayhem. ➡️ inclusion on Gaga's seventh solo studio album, Mayhem (2025).
  • song,[35][36][37] that evokes ➡️ song[35][36][37] that evokes
  • Reviewers at Entertainment Weekly and Vulture noticed similarities to 1960s and 1970s pop ballads as well as Gaga's earlier work on Joanne (2016) and her single "Shallow" (2018) from the A Star Is Born soundtrack.[38][52] The Irish Times likened the track to James Bond theme songs and to Gaga's collaborations with Tony Bennett,[a][54] while NME compared its "soaring" chorus to Bruno Mars's Silk Sonic project.[39] The New York Times further connected it to Mars's early material, influenced by wedding songs and reminiscent of Jason Mraz.[37] Clash remarked on the song's slow, echoing guitar chords similar to shoegaze music. It blends Lee Hazlewood's traditional songwriting with dreamy sounds similar to Slowdive.[55]: Why suddenly the authors' names disappeared?
  • It was dubbed as a romantic, lightly apocalyptic slow dance and positioned within both vintage and modern pop sensibilities, and characterized by polished production and accessibility. ➡️ Dubbed as a romantic, lightly apocalyptic slow dance and positioned within both vintage and modern pop sensibilities, the song was characterized by polished production and accessibility.
  • Reviewers highlighted the song's style ➡️ Reviewers highlighted the style of "Die with a Smile"
  • The Critical reception (including Comments on the song's placement within Mayhem) section never mentions the authors nor their publications. Thus there's a lot of same structures like "It was [...]ed ~~", which would make readers little bit bored.
  • The track was included in several ➡️ "Die with a Smile" was included in several
  • Critics' year-end rankings of "Die with a Smile" ➡️ Critics' year-end rankings
  • A lot of use of "it" in Commercial performance, which should be addressed
  • {{Multiple image}} is really needed here?
  • on the Billboard Hot 100 ➡️ on the US Billboard Hot 100
  • after Michael Jackson and Janet Jackson
  • It debuted at number nine on the Canadian Hot 100 ➡️ "Die with a Smile" debuted at number nine on the Canadian Hot 100
  • In the United Kingdom, it entered the UK Singles Chart at number seven ➡️ In the United Kingdom, "Die with a Smile" entered the UK Singles Chart at number seven
  • IFPI Switzerland ➡️ IFPI Switzerland
  • Nordic countries, it reached number ➡️ Nordic countries, "Die with a Smile" reached number
  • performing "California Dreamin'": Use {{-"}}
  • setlist of The Romantic Tour (2026) ➡️ setlist of the Romantic Tour (2026)
  • Cover versions and Accolades are relatively short, so intergrate them.
  • shared a cover of the song ➡️ shared a cover of "Die with a Smile" Camilasdandelions (✉️) 13:11, 28 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    @Camilasdandelions I'm still addressing the issues, just to let you know that {{multiple image}} makes the article more engaging and not so dense when reading it. Other comments such as "Remove blockquote and just use double quotations, or trim it to wikivoice a bit" were not fully addressed since it makes the article more interesting and keeps the reader engage when reading it, monotone can become too much at a certain point.
    I will not merge "Cover versions and Accolades" since the latter section is quite "large" on the table and the text is just a summary of its highlights. They are a fresh "break" on the massive text on the entire article. The "critical reception" has been addressed using different stylistic preferences, let me know your opinion after reading it. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 15:17, 30 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    I still don't feel the multiple image template is really necessary, especially putting the artists' images. Why don't you put Michael and Janet Jackson's photo instead? Also the Accolades part you explained is fair, but I don't agree "Cover versions" to be independent section since it is composed of only one paragraph. I suggest you to expand or merge it to the appropriate section. I'll also leave additional comments soon. Camilasdandelions (✉️) 16:03, 30 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    I should be done with the issues, unless stated other wise, let me know if I missed something. Makes no sense putting Michael and Janet Jackson's photo, since they are only mention because of Gaga's achievement. Nevertheless, I'm willing to remove it keeping the information, if you think that makes the article better.
    We agree on that, so we will keep it the way it is. Merge it to the appropriate section? Which is? I can't expand when there is no info about it. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 17:20, 30 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    As I multiply stated, I don't think the multiple image template is necessary. And for the Cover versions, just merge to any section then name it "XXX and cover versions" like that. Camilasdandelions (✉️) 23:18, 30 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    I do not think the Cover versions section should be merged solely because it is one paragraph. It is a discrete topic, separate from live performances, reception, chart performance, or accolades, and merging it into another section would create an artificial hybrid section. The paragraph also covers several notable professional covers across 2024–2025, so it is not an empty or trivial section. Unless there is a specific issue with undue weight, sourcing, or organization, keeping it as a standalone subsection is clearer for readers. (And for comparison: "Dance in the Dark", a featured article, has a separate Cover section even though it discusses only one cover, by Rina Sawayama.)
    Regarding the template: what is the specific concern? The images illustrate Gaga's stated inspiration for the song—the Carole King and James Taylor collaborations—so they are connected to the writing and recording discussion, not random decoration. I do not see a policy-based reason why the template itself is inappropriate. Sricsi (talk) 23:47, 30 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    I think the user meant Gaga and Mars' picture on the commercial performance? There isn't an appropriate section to do so with it, its not just merge because its smaller than the other sections, that's not appropriate reasoning. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 00:05, 31 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    I see. Well, for those specific images, I am not strongly attached to keeping them. The caption connects them to the Hot 100 achievement, but the images themselves only show the artists generally, so they may come across as decorative rather than especially informative. I can see arguments for both keeping and removing them, so I would not make the decision here. Sricsi (talk) 00:12, 31 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    @Camilasdandelions are you talking about the images in the commercial performance? MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 20:15, 14 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah Camilasdandelions (✉️) 01:52, 15 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@Camilasdandelions That has now been fixed, please let me know what other changes you would like to see implemented in order to get your support. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 17:42, 15 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Here're the additional comment:
  • "the single was released via digital download and streaming platforms by Interscope Records." I've seen some reviewers encourage nominators to turn passive into active, so it would go like this: "Interscope Records released the single via digital download and streaming platforms".
  • "the track was sent for adult contemporary radio": I've seen multiple people pointing out this that they couldn't understand the meaning of "sent". I recommened you to change this to "serviced" etc
  • Ref 83 (MusicOMH) link died
  • "The single became Gaga's sixth chart-topper and Mars's ninth. The single spent five": Dup "the single"
  • I'm not big fan of "Commercial performance" section. The section feels somewhat list-like, repetitive, and too specific. What you've written in this section is reliable, so no issues with this; but much of it consists of chart positions1, chart positions2 and thrn certifications 1, certifications2.... ((e.g.) It also reached number two in Sweden, number four in Denmark, and number thirteen in Finland. In the Baltic countries, the single reached number one in Estonia, number three in Lithuania, and number two on Latvia's streaming chart. In Germany, the track reached number five, while in France, it reached number eight. Other countries in Europe where it reached number one were Croatia, Greece, and Portugal. The song received several certifications on the continent, including a diamond record in France by the National Syndicate of Phonographic Publishing(SNEP), six times platinum in Portugal by the Associação Fonográfica Portuguesa (AFP), and four times platinum in Greece by IFPI Greece. which makes me highly bored. Try summarazing these.
Camilasdandelions (✉️) 00:57, 16 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Camilasdandelions: I tried my best on the last one, please let me know how it feels now. Thank you so much! MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 21:39, 16 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! I still see some issues in this section:
  • "After selling 6,000 copies, "Die with a Smile" reached the number one spot on the Billboard Hot 100" -- You already called this chart "the Hot 100" before, since you already mentioned its full name in the first sentence. I don't see any reason to write its full name again..
  • This also applies to the second paragraph ("duet ever in the top 10 of the Billboard Hot 100", "dropped off the Billboard Hot 100", "the 2025 Billboard Hot 100").
  • "hit in Hot 100" -> "hit in the Hot 100"
  • "Mars's ninth. It spent" -- I would use semi colon for this part, since the sentence feels like it's cutting off too much, and it's naturally read.
  • "In Ireland, the track also" -> "In Ireland, "Die with a Smile" also"
  • "In the Netherlands, the single debuted at number 19 and then climbed to the top in its fifth week" -- I would add "on Single Top 100", since I was confused between this chart and Dutch Top 40 chart.
  • Remove "Moreover," since you already used "also"
  • "Belgium, the song reached number one" -> "Belgium, "Die with a Smile" peaked atop"
  • "Among the Nordic countries, "Die with a Smile" reached number one in Norway in its third week, making it Gaga's fifth number one hit in the country and Mars's second. It also reached number two in Sweden, number four in Denmark. In the Baltic countries, the single reached number one in Estonia and number three in Lithuania. In Germany, the track reached number five, while in France, it reached number eight." -- I would use different wording for this
  • "In Germany, the track ..." -> "In Germany, "Die with a Smile" ..."
  • "Die with a Smile" enjoyed widespread commercial success -- Question, is "enjoy" suitable in here? I would just use "met" because the single itself cannot "enjoy" something...
  • I just found one issue in "Music video" section. "Billboard and Variety described the video as having a retro Nashville-theme." -- Why not mentioning their authors?
  • I'll stop here. Commercial performance section needs significant work because it is still somewhat repetitive and in list-like format. I would recommend some copyedits for this, but after those are addressed I may believe it is not that big problem to be FA status.
Camilasdandelions (✉️) 07:08, 20 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
All address. I believe you will have more. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 17:08, 20 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Great! You forgot:
  • "Die with a Smile" dropped off the Billboard Hot 100 in its 60th week, ... The single topped the 2025 Billboard Hot 100 Year-End chart"
  • Replace archive.today with Wayback archive URLs
  • The only section I'm unsatisfied is only Europe subsection, but I'll just do copyedit for you. Please share your thoughts if you disagree with something..
Camilasdandelions (✉️) 00:03, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I only replaced the word "hit", thank you for the c/e. Let me know what else to do and address. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 00:24, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I think you need to replace all 95 archive.today archive URLs to wayback URLs. I'll be glad to support the article after you addressing it :) Sorry for taking a long review. Camilasdandelions (✉️) 00:47, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Take as long as you need, I already let another user that has been doing that known to do so also because of a different review. I might need to change some stuff on the last two paragraphs of the Europe section. The C/E is fine, its just the sources I would rather have them on the end of the sentences and not splinting countries. Let me know your thoughts, I have done that on the third paragraph. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 00:51, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Could you please support the article now? All those sources have been replaced. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 14:21, 28 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, I'm sorry I just saw this now bruh. Support Camilasdandelions (✉️) 05:26, 13 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Non-coordinator comment

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This has been open for more than three weeks and has by my count picked up only one support. Unless it shows significant signs of moving towards a consensus to promote over the next three or four days, I am afraid that it may be archived. Bgsu98 (Talk) 14:25, 10 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Two supports so far. Furthermore, we are waiting for someone to explain to us some of their comments so we can addressed them the best way possible. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 19:20, 10 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I've added it to FAC's urgent list. Hopefully, someone reviews it within the next few days. Otherwise it would have to be archived. FrB.TG (talk) 14:22, 15 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 17:57, 20 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

RandomEdits

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Placeholder - Saw this in the urgent column, should be able to start reviewing this this evening!

(As one initial thought, I think unfortunately it's required to update all the archive.today links to other archiving services...) RandomEditsForWhenIRemember (talk) 10:54, 16 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Hi guys, done my initial readthrough. Certainly an interesting song to read about - I liked the song but hadn't really appreciated it had become that popular.
The article is in a good position overall. To focus on improvements; my initial thought when reading is that this is, I think, one of the longest song FACs, though I'm admittedly new to music FAs. I picked five songs at random from the Music FA pile, all fairly modern songs, and they were all 1500-3500 words, while this tops 5000. This by itself isn't a problem as it's well under the recommended max length of a page, but it does make me wonder if some of details could be trimmed for a tighter reading. Might be worth a more experienced music reviewer weighing in on this, but there were times in this that I felt the prose veered into overly-detailed.

"Live performances" is definitely the section I felt this the most, as it's mostly just a list of every performance ever done of this song, and since several of these appeared to be routine performances I found a bit dull to read thought. There's also just a lot of extra detail that I didn't feel was necessary to my understanding of the song - the clothes Gaga wore at the Superbowl rendition and Wiltern Theatre for example, could be excised entirely (I'd keep the wedding sentence though).

I also wondered if we could shorten "Commercial Performance" by a good amount since we have the chart tables later on conveying much of the info already. Currently it's fairly repetitive, a long list of repeating variants of "The song debuted at position X in this chart. It then reached position X, and stayed there for 3 weeks. It went platinum and was Gaga/Mars' first act to Z." The song is a smash hit globally, but I think I could be convinced of that with half the examples here! "Cover versions" has a similar problem in that's a long list of "X covered this" but admittedly this is less of a concern to me as it's one paragraph and other FA music pages have this issue.

To give an example of what I was thinking, here's a quick rewrite of "Music Video" which I believe conveys the same info as what is currently there, in about half the words (491 vs 269) This was done fairly quickly so there may be some bits you feel need adding, but hopefully it conveys what I'm trying to get at.
-----------
Die in Smile's music video premiered on Gaga's YouTube channel alongside the song's premiere. Directed by Mars and Daniel Ramos, the video depicts Mars and Gaga performing on a retro television stage, dressed in the outfits from the single's cover art; Gaga in red tights and a Dolly Parton-inspired hairstyle, Mars in a blue suit and white cowboy hat. Accompanied by a live band and surrounded by faceless mannequins, they perform for a black-and-white camera before the video ends with a heart-shaped frame around them.
Gaga stated the video portrays her and Mars as a veteran television variety-show couple, and was inspired by similar acts and programs. In the video, Gaga's character smokes a cigarette just before her first verse, which Gaga said was because she "wanted to create the semblance of a character who had something to say. And it's slightly subversive — like, you're talking about the world ending and I'm having a cigarette. There's something kind of dark about it."
Critics described the video as retro and with a Nashville-theme, drawing comparisons to duos such as Elton John and Kiki Dee, or Sonny Bono and Cher. Fashion writers highlighted its 1970s Western styling, particularly Gaga's blue minidress designed by Ashley Eva Brock and Mars's blue suit, reminiscent of Dolly Parton and Porter Wagoner's duets. Reviews for the video were mixed, with Exclaim! dubbing it as "unapologetically schmaltzy" while The A.V. Club found it visually unremarkable. The video surpassed one billion YouTube views in April 2025, and was nominated for Best Music Video and Video of the Year at the 2025 iHeartRadio Music Awards and MTV Video Music Awards respectively.
-----------
I will start doing a more detailed deep-dive ala 1994 guy above (and also see if I can help out with the archive issues - I think most of the archive.today's original links are still up so it should be a fixable issue!) tomorrow. If you have time for a FA review yourself when you're not working on this, I have a FA about a horse up at the moment that could do with another prose reviewer, but this isn't required as part of this review by any means!
RandomEditsForWhenIRemember (talk) 22:45, 16 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I will take care of most of this during the weekend. Thank you in advance! MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 19:21, 18 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
CHr0m4tiko0 Can you address this? You have been replacing them all. Thanks. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 19:37, 20 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I am currently replacing the archive.today links. There are 74 remaining, and I expect to finish them within about a week due to Wayback Machine's rate limits. CHr0m4tiko0 (talk) 15:09, 22 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@CHr0m4tiko0 considering the amount, it might be worth seeing if you can automate the process a bit with https://fixarchive.toolforge.org/ . At a quick glance it appears most of the remaining ones already have web.archive links ready to go if you're happy to mass merge them in through the website. RandomEditsForWhenIRemember (talk) 21:29, 23 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you so much for the information and the link! I was able to replace several of them very easily, although some of the archived links did not work. There are now only 28 left, and I should have them all replaced by today or tomorrow. CHr0m4tiko0 (talk) 15:03, 24 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
All the archive.today links have now been replaced. Apologies for the delay, but there were more than 200 of them in total. CHr0m4tiko0 (talk) 19:21, 27 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@RandomEditsForWhenIRemember: I have tried to fix every issue to the best of my ability and took your suggestion in the MV section, with minor changes. One of the other nomiantors will change the rest of the archive.today links. Please let me know of any other significant modifications in order to get your support. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 22:40, 20 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Mario great to hear, I should be able to get back to you tomorrow on this! RandomEditsForWhenIRemember (talk) 21:51, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for the delay. It's mostly looking good. While I raised concerns about the length previously, which this is still unusually long for a FA song piece, I couldn't really spot anything that looked like it should be outright removed. So with that in mind...
Lede
  • I think this is one of the rare times in these review were a lede undersells a point; " "Die with a Smile" achieved great commercial success" feels appropriate considering the amount of records it broke.
  • You use three billion here but 3 billion in "International" down below.
Fixed. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 22:34, 22 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Background and development
  • According to American singer-songwriter James Fauntleroy, Mars initially considered pitching an early version of the song for the 2024 film Joker: Folie à Deux in which Lady Gaga stars, or her companion album to the film, Harlequin (2024).[3] The former project is a companion album to the film.[4] Same face repeated twice here?
  • Do we know why Mars didn't end up pitching the early version?
No, Mars never really spoke about the track like the rest of the composers. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 22:34, 22 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • As someone unfamiliar with music development, what is a normal number of versions (for "few than usual")
It varies. I know that for Mars is usually ten according to an interview given by D'mile. However, Mars himself did 18 different versions for "Versace on the Floor", this depends on lot on producers, engineers, etc...
  • It'd be worth mentioned what Gaga's upcoming album was called.
  • was "blown away" by the track that later became "Die with a Smile" I'd cut everything after track - we already know it's DwaS, and you've used "later become" earlier.
Fixed. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 22:34, 22 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am a little sceptical of including the last sentence; Mars and Gaga are hardly going to start criticizing one another just before dropping a new song together, so this reads as including promotional material. This also applies somewhat to the previous sentence.
Do you want me to remove the last sentence? The one before that could have been her genuine reaction to it. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 22:34, 22 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I think how it reads now is fine to be honest! RandomEditsForWhenIRemember (talk) 20:11, 25 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Writing and recording
  • Gaga said that what first drew her in was the concept of a song about what we would do if the world were ending. This could benefit from a slight rephrasing - it's very similar to Mars' quote "about being next to someone if the world was ending" a few paragraphs above.
  • Gaga later affirmed that, although the title evoked associations with Joker: Folie à Deux I might be missing something due to Google Translate, but I didn't spot in either ref 12 or 13 where Gaga said this - the articles writers definitely think there's a connection, but not Gaga.
Fixed. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 22:34, 22 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Release
  • Gaga and Mars interacted on social media before confirming the collaboration. I would remove this sentence, it doesn't add anything.
  • A rough date for when the duo announced the song would be worth including to give a sense of time.
  • On August 19, the track was serviced for adult contemporary radio and hot adult contemporary radio by Interscope. The label also sent the song to contemporary hit radio on the following day. Three "Contemporary radio"s on one line! Do any of these have alternative names?
No, they are all contemporary, however I twinked with the word radio. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 22:34, 22 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Gaga's performance at the Superbowl is dropped in without any context here; this is the first time it's mentioned in the article's body and we're already moving on to its version's release. While this is covered in greater detail much later, a sentence here to lead into this more seamlessly would help.
  • Andrew Watt stated that, once completed, the song was intended for inclusion on Gaga's seventh solo studio album, Mayhem (2025).[31] Now we have the released album and know the song is on it, this feels unnecessary to include at this point. I'd remove this sentence and lead the paragraph with "Although Die with a Smile was initially promoted as..."
Fixed. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 22:34, 22 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Composition and production
  • Nothing to note here. This looks good to me.
Critical Reception
  • I would say that, while nothing here is oppose-worthy, this is my main area of concern. There's a good amount of repetition across the three paragraphs ("Reviewers highlighted", describing the song as "lightly apocalyptic", starting a sentence with "Industry commentary" etc). The first two paragraphs appear to roughly covering the same ideas; both the first two paragraphs overlap in covering style, with the second paragraph additionally covering other areas. The third paragraph is fine. I will leave ref checks on this to others as I'm not familiar with the ref requirements for Critical reception sections to fairly comment.
[I've skipped Commercial performance as it looks like you're discussing this with Camilasdandelions]
[Music video / live performances already covered]
Cover version
  • On September 24, 2024, Filipino singer Julie Anne San Jose shared a cover of "Die with a Smile" on her social media accounts, performing vocals, guitar, piano, and drums. Is this a notable interpretation of the song, or just one of many social media covers that happened to be by someone famous?
Seems quite relevant to me since the performer as she not only singed, but also played instruments. On top of that, she is also actress, has spent a decade in the industry and very famous mainly in the Philippines. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 21:06, 23 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • What was the reasoning for which covers you included critical reviews for and which you didn't?
It was what was available at the time. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 21:06, 23 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Accolades
  • Looks good
RandomEditsForWhenIRemember (talk) 20:29, 22 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I fixed what you pointed out in every section, let me know your thoughts. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 22:40, 24 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Mario, I've had another readthrough and I think I'm happy to support now. Best of luck with your other reviewers. RandomEditsForWhenIRemember (talk) 20:11, 25 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you so much! MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 20:02, 27 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Hurricanehink

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I support just like I did the first time around, and felt that it rose to the standards of a featured-quality song article. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 16:51, 20 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 17:08, 20 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comment

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Cites 1, 173 and 174 are in title case; cites 191, 409 and 412 are in sentence case. There are many other cases of both.
On a similar note, there are instances of both Die With a Smile and Die With A Smile: I even found some Die with a Smile. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:09, 27 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! All has been fixed. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 22:05, 27 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

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How much does File:Lady Gaga, Bruno Mars - Die With a Smile (music video screenshot).png add to the understanding to the article's topic? Image placement and ALT is fine. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 13:59, 1 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

I think the screenshot adds contextual understanding beyond simple decoration. The section discusses the video's retro television-stage setting, the duo's matching blue Western-inspired styling, and Gaga's characterization as part of a veteran variety-show couple rather than a conventional "wife" figure. The selected frame illustrates those elements together in a way prose alone does less efficiently.
And then it also directly supports the sourced discussion of Gaga's cigarette in the video, which she described as a deliberate, slightly subversive character choice connected to the song's apocalyptic theme. Since the image captures both performers, the set/costuming, and the smoking moment discussed in the text, I believe it has sufficient contextual significance to aid readers' understanding of the music video section.
I'd maybe slightly tweak the caption to make the NFCC#8 purpose clearer:
Gaga smoking in a scene with Mars on the video's retro television-stage set; she later described the cigarette as part of a subversive character choice. Sricsi (talk) 17:56, 1 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Pinging the reviewer - Jo-Jo. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:29, 1 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Seems somewhat marginal regarding the "understanding of the article topic" criterium. Anyone else? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:34, 2 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
The image on the MV section is significant and relevant to its topic's. This particular image has a clear and unique illustrative purpose like Sricsi pointed above and it is used as an illustrative aid to the subject, in this case the MV. Perhaps improve the caption would work better on this case, since the whole article features few visuals taking into consideration its size. I do know that not every article needs images and too much can make an article heavy, but not too long ago we removed two images from the commercial performance for various reasons. In this particular case, "A picture is worth a thousand words." MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 22:13, 2 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the image adds useful context and should be retained. If needed, we can refine the caption, but the screenshot clearly illustrates the setting and character choice discussed in the section. CHr0m4tiko0 (talk) 04:01, 3 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose from Ian

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I went over this with a view to promoting but have decided to recuse coord duties and review as I'm finding the prose clunky, for example:

  • Jake Viswanath of Bustle compared the song's lyrical perspective to Gaga's 2011 single "The Edge of Glory", while Billboard Argentina drew its focus on "finding happiness and peace amid adversity". -- What does "drew its focus" mean? Whose focus and who is "drawing" it? Do we mean the reviewer highlighted the song's focus on "finding happiness and peace amid adversity"? If so, say it like that. If not, please enlighten me as to the statement's true meaning.
  • Clash's Robin Murray remarked on the song's slow, echoing guitar chords similar to shoegaze music. It blends Lee Hazlewood's traditional songwriting with dreamy sounds similar to Slowdive. -- Re. the first sentence, I think you mean Murray "considered" the song's slow, echoing guitar chords similar to shoegaze music, not "remarked on". Re. the second sentence, why is it in Wikipedia's voice? I assume the Murray also considers that the track blends Lee Hazlewood's traditional songwriting with dreamy sounds similar to Slowdive -- am I right?
  • The Los Angeles Times placed it at number 17, while Billboard ranked it 21st, highlighting its timeless production, vocal performances, and replay value. -- "timeless" is editorialising, I'd remove it unless the paper used that exact term, in which case it should be in quotes.
  • The song also peaked atop on the charts in the Netherlands, including both Dutch Top 40 and Single Top 100. -- "peaked atop"? Do you mean it reached number one? If so just say it like that, simply.
  • The track also became Gaga's fourth number one track and Mars's second in Switzerland, remaining in that position for four consecutive weeks, while Gaga's fifth number one single and Mars's second in Norway. -- The last clause is ungrammatical -- do we mean "It was Gaga's fifth number one single, and Mar's second, in Norway"? If so say it like that.
  • Reviews for the video were mixed, with Calum Slingerland from Exclaim! dubbing it as "unapologetically schmaltzy" -- You don't need to dub it "as" something, you just dub it something.

Note that this is just from a cursory review, I haven't read every word by any means but these examples don't fill me with confidence about the remainder of the prose. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:53, 20 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, thanks for taking the time to review the article and for pointing these issues out. I agree that the examples you highlighted needed clearer wording and better attribution. I've revised those passages accordingly, addressing the issues with ambiguous phrasing, Wikipedia's voice, and unsupported editorial wording.
Thanks again for the helpful comments. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 19:22, 20 July 2026 (UTC)[reply]
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