Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 April 23

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April 23

Plural of "mail"

According to Wiktionary (and at least one WP article), the plural of mail (noun) is mails. As a native US English speaker, this seems absurd. I would never say "today's mails consisted of two letters and a parcel". Am I missing something? 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:984A:CA94:A2BD:E53B (talk) 03:14, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Mail in the sense you're thinking of is an uncountable mass noun. This seems to be meanings 3 and 6 in the Wiktionary entry. Meaning 6 is marked as uncountable and "chiefly US", but no clear distinction is made from meaning 3, and I agree with you that it would be very strange to use that as a count noun.

There are definitely count senses, though, especially in the context of e-mail. --Trovatore (talk) 03:19, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

What I was missing was familiarity with the term 'uncountable mass noun'. I'll read that article. In the meantime: is it just me, or does "Experimental airmails", "Scheduled Air Mails", etc., in the Airmails of the United States sound odd? --Thanks for the link, 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:984A:CA94:A2BD:E53B (talk) 03:30, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

It does sound odd, I agree. I'm speculating, but I think this might be an attempt to extend the idiom "the mails", meaning the postal system, as in offenses like "sending dangerous materials through the mails". I don't recall ever hearing the extension to "the airmails". --Trovatore (talk) 03:34, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Oddly enough, "emails" is considered normal usage. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:47, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

I mentioned that in my first response, though I insist on the hyphen. --Trovatore (talk) 03:48, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Oops, sorry. The hyphen seems to be used less and less. Hard to tell why. As regards the plural, I suspect the difference is that you mail a letter, whereas you send an e(-)mail. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:13, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Off topic, but since you ask: the progression from separate words to hyphenated to hyphenless forms is standard in English. See, to take a random example, seaweed. Henry^Flower 13:00, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Or even closer to home (n'yuk, n'yuk) "base ball" to "base-ball" to "baseball". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:08, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

I don't recall coming across the mails meaning the postal system and wouldn't say "sending dangerous materials through the mails". 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:984A:CA94:A2BD:E53B (talk) 05:39, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Google has one hit for that particular phrase, and it's this page. :) But the general point is correct. Henry^Flower 13:02, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

There is a now slightly archaic use of "the mails" as a term for the whole postal system |(in Merriam-Webster). A "mail" was also a train, ship, or coach used to deliver the post - so the Bristol Mail went daily from London to Bristol. In that sense the plural is possible - the mails went daily from London to various destinations round the country. Wymspen (talk) 14:42, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Try using Google's Advanced Book Search. In The Unconstitutionality of the Laws of Congress, Prohibiting Private Mails (Lysander Spooner, 1844), you will find "mails" mentioned numerous times. Also, Overland Mails to India, China, Etc: The Acceleration of Mails (Once a Fortnight) Between England and the East Indies and Vice Versa (Thomas Waghorn, 1843).

Also see ngram for the prevalence of the word mails over the past 200 years. —Stephen (talk) 17:22, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

The problem with that is it doesn't differentiate between the noun and the verb. 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:984A:CA94:A2BD:E53B (talk) 17:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Same with "post". "Different countries' posts" sounds more natural. 79.73.128.211 (talk) 18:31, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

French "roselys"

I was looking at a recent article about a warship, French corvette Roselys, and was curious about the name. It was a originally a British Flower-class corvette; they were all named after flowers and this one began life as HMS Sundew before being lent to the Free French Navy. Other French Flower-class ships were renamed with the French translation of the same flower, hence HMS Aconite became the French corvette Aconit. Google wasn't very helpful with the translation of "sundew" into French, not a word used in everyday speech I suspect, but the French Wikipedia article Fr:Droséra (Drosera, the sundew family) gives "rossolis (du latin ros solis, la rosée du soleil)". Is "roselys" then a variant or archaic form of "rossolis"? Seems likely but a source might allow me to put it in the article. Alansplodge (talk) 18:42, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

No idea how relevant this is, but "rose" is rose and "lys" is lily. So there's a floral association in any event. ---Sluzzelin talk 18:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

But if the etymology quoted on the French Wikipedia is correct, the "lys" element is a false cognate. Alansplodge (talk) 09:09, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

It does indeed mean Rose-Lily - but as the given name of a girl, rather than as the name of a type of plant. http://www.prenoms.com/prenom/ROSELYS.html Wymspen (talk) 10:03, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

I did also find this (facebook site), but don't find it very conclusive: 'En français, la traduction littérale du Sundew (Drosera), la "Rosée du matin" était très poétique. Probablement pour ne pas être en reste de talent et d'humour avec ses collègues de l'Amirauté britannique, l'Amirauté française libre avait rebaptisé notre bâtiment du nom de Roselys, associant ainsi, poétiquement, la rose britannique et le lis français qui s'étaient opposés durant l'histoire.' Apparently quoted from Ni chagrin ni pitié : souvenirs d'un marin de la France libre by François Flohic (1985). (Admiral Flohic is not a linguist, but who knows?). The snippet can be read in context at Gallica's digital library here, page 26f (luckily it's included in the book's first 15% percent, as that's all Gallica displays). ---Sluzzelin talk 11:41, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks very much Sluzzelin, that'll do nicely. Alansplodge (talk) 17:23, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Resolved

@Alansplodge: It's also possible that the more "meaningful" in modern terms roselys is a folk etymology from rossolis, given solis is not meaningful in modern French. μηδείς (talk) 18:06, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

That was my thought too, but a supporting citation is conspicuous by its absence. Alansplodge (talk) 18:14, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

I don't have a French etymological dictionary, but I assumed it was clear enough that nounnoun is not the usual way of forming compounds in French. In any case, my point was to bring up folk etymology, which had not been mentioned, not to claim I had solved a mystery. μηδείς (talk) 22:13, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks; I'm sure you have a valid point, but I needed something that I can put in the article. Alansplodge (talk) 11:52, 26 April 2017 (UTC)