Talk:Yarsanism/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Merger proposal

Perhaps Ali-Illahism should be merged with Yarsanism; the only specific reference to Ali-Illahism seems to be book of Austen Henry Layard, from 1853. Besides that, all or almost all that it was written about Ali-Illahism (like this or this) seems to assume that it is simply a different name for Ahl i-Haqq.--MiguelMadeira (talk) 22:48, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
... This is not an unreasonable proposal given the obvious overlap. If you are confident that you're right that its just an archaic name for this belief system (rather than a local sect/subset among Kurds) then I would not oppose the merger. jackbrown (talk) 23:19, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
@MiguelMadeira: Yarsanism is an ancient Iranian religion but Ali-Illahism is an exaggeration view of Shia Islam. --– Hossein Iran « talk » 23:44, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

I'd be up to work on the Illahism page when I have access to a computer, but I'd have to read more to know if this is a good merger.FourLights (talk) 01:06, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

@Jackbrown: I am not confident - I am not an expert on the issue; @Hosseiniran: By the article, Yarsanism does not seem particularly ancient (founded in 14th century); with this or with other article, I think that Ali-Illahism should be merged with something; the only reference of the article Ali-Illahism is a footnote saying "A creed professed by several tribes in Kurdistan and Louristan, and by some of the inhabitants of the northern part of the Lebanon range in Syria. It consist mainly in the belief, that there have been sucessive encarnations of the Deity, the principal having been in the person of Ali, the celebrated son-in-law of the prophet Mohammed. The name usually given them, Ali-Illahi, means «believers that Ali is God.» Various abominable rites have been attributed to them, as to the Yezidis, Ansysris, and all sects whose doctrines are not known to the surrounding Mussulman or Christian population"; by this description by A. H. Layard, I think that he is talking, or about Yarsanism, or about Ghulat, or perhaps mixing Yarsanism and Druzes ("northern part of the Lebanon range in Syria..."). If we consider that Ali-Illahism is an exaggeration view of Shia Islam, it is the same thing as Ghulat, no? Or, if it is a specifi subset of "exaggerated Shia", who are (or were) them? Does not seems to be any more references to a sect of "exaggerated Shia" in Kurdistan called Ali-Illahism (besides those who treate Ali-Illahism as a different name for Yarsanism); but perhaps I am very close to enter in original research?--MiguelMadeira (talk) 14:30, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

@MiguelMadeira:The Ali-Illahism page should not be merged into the Yarsanism page. Your cited French source equivocates them with followers of Nusayr, and al-Huruf. We do not have the appropriate information from public sources to claim that Ali-Illahism includes theological teachings of Sultan Sahak. Their theology is closer to Alawites than Alevis. The assertion that Ali was an incarnation of god is an exaggerated view of Shiism, and it is technically ghulat. The most related sect to Ali-Illahism appears to be the Ali Ilahian, and that one is appropriate to merge into the Ali-Illahism article, because it has a singular source which is a dead link. The best action would be to translate the french source in the Ali-Illahism article, and to augment the Yarsanism article by including a few sentences on the divinity of Ali in the section about 'Relationship with other groups'; because Alevism is already mentioned there. I will contribute more to this branch, in the near future either way.WilliamJennings1989 (talk) 16:17, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Meanwhile, I recovered the link of the source for Ali Ilahian.--MiguelMadeira (talk) 17:57, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

@MiguelMadeira: Ali Ilahism is an Islamic branch but Yarsan people are not Muslim. they don't practice Islamic essential things. Yarsanism is like Yazidism. a mystic Kurdish religion. – Hossein Iran « talk » 20:52, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

@Hosseiniran: I understand what you mean, but in most interpretations of the English language, Sufis are considered as Muslims. I want this article to be less divisive, and more inclusive. It is in the common goal of Wikipedia to further cooperation, so we should discourage any related animosity, such as: the Sunni-Shia strife; or any persecution of minorities in the Middle East. If we try to appeal to the most numerous audience, then we can collectively protect Shi'ites, Sunnis, and Sufis.–WilliamJennings1989 (talk) 08:12, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

@MiguelMadeira: Sufi is mystical branch of Islam. but Ali Ilahism is not Sufism. they are Shia Muslims who believe that Ali is corporeal apparition of Allah. also Yarsanism is not Sufism. they are a mystic religion who are not (sufi) Muslim, Zoroastrian and... Sufism and Ali-Ilahism have similarity because they both believe in Allah but Yarsanism is a very distinct thing. Yarsanism has many followers in Iranian Kurdish region even they are majority in some cities and a minority in Kurdistan autonomous region and no one of them does not consider itself as Muslim even they have been labeled by Muslims to Satanist and some of Muslim Marja sentenced them as Najis and Infidels. you can try Alevism which has more similarities to Islam even some of them consider them self as Muslim. – Hossein Iran « talk » 08:43, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Well, it seems the merge that I suggested probably it is not indeed appropriate; however, I still think that perhaps should be done something with the article Ali-Illahism. Specially, attending that all reference to that article are very old books (1856, 1853, 1914; and the only reference for the other article that was merged was also a old Persian book, translated to English in 1843), my doubt is that if there is (or was) indeed an identified religous community called "Ali-Illahism" (distinct from Yarsanism, Alevism, etc.), or if it was a generic name attributed (specially by outsiders), without much rigor, to some heterodox communities in the regions (probably covering Yarsanism, Alevism, Alawis, etc. - I find a source apparently arguing that), or if nobody really knows exactly. And if there is any way to approach the issue in the article, with references (to not fall in OR) - perhaps these my last comment was more appropriate at the talk page of Ali-Illahism, but because it is here that the discussion is running...--MiguelMadeira (talk) 04:55, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Attending that there is, apparently, a consensus against merging, I should remove the tags, or there is a more formal processo to do that?MiguelMadeira (talk) 11:42, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

They are not same. I doubt if there is anything by the name of Ali-Illahism; I know that Muslim mullas accuse Yarsan people to be Ali-Illahism and therefore their religion is profinity and they must be doomed. Ali-Illahism sounds to me more as a excuse to suppress these people (And other unmuslim people). Ashkan P. (talk) 14:19, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

User feels article aims at conversion

Hello .

When i read this page it seems like if whoever wrote it is trying to convert me, don't you think so ? Technical Peace (talk) 06:02, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

I don't think so. Is there any wording in particular that you feel is promotional, or any sections that you think are inappropriate?

Certainly when people come to my door to try to convert me to their religion -- which does not happen very often admittedly -- they do not start by saying "I have a syncretic religion I would like to tell you about".

Any article about a religion needs to describe what the belief system of the religion is, although it needs to do so neutrally. I think this article currently achieves that. MPS1992 (talk) 13:31, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Vandalizm

The site consists only of Kurdish nationalism. Where is the neutrality here? The Yaresanis are not only made up of Kurds, but here they were all referred to as Kurds, although they have Turkish and Arab origins. In my opinion, the page should be reworked and neutrally. The users "Semsuri" and "KurdiEzidi" ... have committed vandalism, as on many other English-language sites:

It is mentioned that Turkic Yarsans exist. If you have a reliable reference for Arab Yarsanis, you are more than welcome to add it. --Semsûrî (talk) 21:47, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

The female angelic being in the First Epoch

According The Yaresan: a sociological, historical, and religio-historical study of a Kurdish community by M. Reza Hamzeh'ee (Berlin: K. Schwarz. ISBN 3-922968-83-X. OCLC 23438701) which is already used many times as a source in the article, the female angelic being is according Yarsani myth of creation angel named Marmuz:

...The seventh angel, Marmuz, who is of feminine gender, was created out of His sweat...

Page: 71 Chapter: 3. Stories of the creation -> 3.1.1. From pre-etermity to the creation of the "Haftan" (Beginning of the chapter on page 70) Dr. Ivan Kučera (talk) 21:48, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 March 2023

The following sentence taken from the "beliefs" section is at best confusing, if not altogether misleading:

The Yarsani follow the mystical teachings of Sultan Sahak (fl. 14th-15th century). [...] Yarsani faith can be identified as Kurdish esoterism which emerged under the intense influence of Bātinī-Sufism during the last two centuries.

From the reader's perspective, the last two centuries are to the 19th and 20th at the moment. I believe the article intends to mean the two centuries preceeding the inception of the faith, from Sultan Sahak's teachings.

I propose to change it to something along the lines of the preceeding two centuries. OkMtRja40A (talk) 09:31, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Partly done: I removed the part that is not clear and tagged the sentence. M.Bitton (talk) 14:58, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Some mistakes i found in this Wikipedia about yarsanism

As an yarsani (yari) follower I found some mistakes in this Wikipedia that i can’t change first: yarsanism in not a abrahamic religion and we are not Abraham follower second: yarsanism is not a ethnic religion or private religion it’s just a religion followed mostly by gorani (hawrami) kurds, in 14th century Thousands of people converted to yarsanism there is no evidence in the Yari religious scriptures that conversion to Yari faith is prohibitedor that Yarsani are only born into the faith according to our religion and our spiritual leaders and famous yarsani follower (Ali Akbar Moradi) the yari community do not propagate or encourage others to convert to Yari religion, according to Dr. Moradi, some people might misunderstood that yarsanism is a private religion, we can’t claim what yarsanism is without proof or evidence, so please someone change it Slavyari (talk) 14:31, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Well, you´re right, but I want to point out, that the article also makes classification as Iranian religion and Abrahamic is not mantioned because Yarsanism follows Abraham, but because of parallels with Abrahamic religions like names of angels etc. and according Hamzee, M. Rezaa (1990), The Yaresan: a sociological, historical, and religio-hisotrical study of a Kurdish community, Islamkundliche Untersuchungen, during ritual for blood sacrifices Sayyed says word "Allah" and Allah isn´t word which is in Yarsanism unusual. (It´s on the page 168, I´ve read also in some cases is during some performance said takbir (Allahu Akbar) and word Allah in Arabic is the same as word Allah in Aramaic (the language Jesus spoke) and comes etymologically from Hebrew word Ellohim (royal plural for Elloh) which comes from cannanite "El" what means "deity" and that´s the reason why yarsani angels have names which end whith "-el" (Gabri-EL, Azra-EL, Micha-EL). So if Yaris call their deity "Allah" it´s clear conection to abrahamic God ´cause it comes from Cannan which is home of Abrahamic religions and it´s origin-place of names like Gabriel, Rafael and El himself. From cannanite El comes Ellohim in Judaism, Allah in early Christianity (Aramaic is not used as liturgical language anymore, with exceptions) and Allah in Islam (All 3 Abrahamic religions) and Yarsanism. This article is not based on faith, it´s not theological article, your personal beliefs do not play a role here and no one is forcing you to believe that Yarsanism has anything to do with Abrahamic religions or that the words Allah and Gabriel etc. have etymological origins in Canaanite words, but this is a scientific article and I'm not saying that the scientific method is the right one, you can be right and I'm wrong, but wikipedia makes it the scientific method and not the method of personal beliefs (although science can be wrong and your personal beliefs may be right), therefore the classification Abrahamic religion has its role here. Dr. Ivan Kučera (talk) 13:02, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

As yarsani myself i never been told that our religion is Abrahamic (obviously cause it’s not) after all it depends on yarsani individual but putting (Abrahamic may also cause confusion) in Abrahamic religion they believe in hell and heaven, which we yarsani don’t and we believe in Reincarnation instead, our religion is spiritual religion, but anyway let’s push that apart but what is up with yarsani and type of ethnic??? 185.187.78.45 (talk) 01:11, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Well, no one ever had to teach you that Yarsanism is an Abrahamic religion, it is a scientific category. For example I went to Roman Catholic religion classes at school for 7 years and I was never taught that Christianity is an Abrahamic religion, but if I had attended religious studies instead, they would have told me that for sure. To hell and heaven, according to The Yaresan : a sociological, historical and religio-historical study of a Kurdish community / M. Reza Hamzeh'ee. Berlin : Schwarz, 1990 (page 129) Yarsanists believe in 2 types of heaven/paradise and a day of judgment, but souls incarnate until the day of judgment (which happens at the end of the world) and only after passing through at least 1001 reincarnations will they find themselves on the day of judgment , where their sins can be forgiven. (Most of that study is based on what was written by Nur Ali Elahi and his father Hajj Nematollah who were members of one particular Khandan, so it is possible that other Khandans believe in different theologies, may I ask which Khandan you belong to?) And in other sources (not very reliable) I read that Yarsanists also believe in hell.

And besides, you completely missed my point, I said that Abrahamic religion is because God is called Allah, which comes from Abrahamic religions, etc. And to the ethnic part, it does not mean that all Yarsanists are Kurds, it refers to ethnoreligious group what is people who are unified by a common religious and ethnic background with common social character, historical experience, and theological beliefs. It is divided into 3 parts: Ethnic fusion (Yazidis) Ethnic religon (Greeks and Greek orthodoxy) Yaris go into this category amd Religious ethnicity (Muslims as an ethnic group in Balkans) For example not all people who profess Greek Orthodoxy are Greeks, and the fact that not all Greeks are Orthodox (and that anybody can convert to Greek Orthodoxy) does not mean that it is not an ethnoreligious group, it is enough that Greeks profess Greek Orthodoxy and this part of Greeks have common history and social structure . The same Yarsanists, in order to qualify as an ethnoreligious group, it is enough to have a substantial connection with some ethnic group (Kurds), which affects their social structure, and they have a common faith and historical experience that distinguishes them from others. Dr. Ivan Kučera (talk) 21:41, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Yarsanism is not Abrahamic

It’s not. SAYITWITHYOURCHEST (talk) 06:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC)