Talk:Three wise monkeys

猿 vs. ざる

@Imaginatorium: Sir, I believe that my edit is consistent with what you wrote in your edit summary, and takes into account the pun, the homophony, only making the two homophonic words clear. 猿 has a single meaning, that is 'monkey' in Japanese. Yes, they are homophones. So are sea and see. But sea does not literally mean 'see'. Sea simply does not mean 'see' — {{lit}} and {{nihongo}} templates are used in our case. The literal and primary meaning of 見猿 is a 猿 named 見. Not a single character means 'not'. Only as a pun does it mean/refer to 見ざる, which literally is a different word. Though ざる can literally mean both 'not' and 'monkey', not the other way around (I think?). 猿 simply does not, and much less literally, mean 'not'. Also you reverted more than what is given in your edit summary. XComhghall (talk) 11:43, 8 September 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment. Actually I agree with quite a bit of what you are saying. If you wish to revert my edit back to your latest version, please go ahead. I do not think your latest version is the right way to say it, but I don't think the previous version was very good either. One problem is "lit.", which is often literally (fall about laughing + 6 smilies) meaningless, and you have used the word "literally" four times in your comment; rather than just criticising, I am just pointing out that this is a widespread problem in WP.

Anyway, I think it is not obvious how best to explain this, but it will not rely on spattering the word "literal" anywhere. I will try to think about it... may take some time. Imaginatorium (talk) 08:09, 9 September 2025 (UTC)

@Imaginatorium: Yeah, I agree. It is kind of hard to explain a joke or pun, and concisely, and while being bound by the MOS and the nihongo templates. I was thinking of something like Mizaru (見猿 'seeing monkey', or 見ざる 'do not see'), covering his eyes. I don't know how to translate 見猿, but I think it is used in Japanese to refer to the monkey itself. Maybe readers can read more in the 'Origin' section.

I was using the word literally unironically in its literal sense, referring to the literal senses of the words/characters (i.e., referring to the problem with 見猿, lit. 'not seeing'), not as a speech intensifier.

Judging by the edit history you can tell I really struggled to come up with a barely satisfactory solution/explanation. Please do make the edit if/when you come up with something. Maybe you can correct me, but translating (or as it currently says, lit. translating) 見猿 as 'not seeing' just seemed so wrong … XComhghall (talk) 07:06, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

Iwazaru is sometimes mistakenly interpreted as "taste no evil".

So, I was reading this old american book about Japanese folklore, and the author misinterprets "speak no evil" as "taste no evil." I think it makes sense because the monkey covers his mouth. So some think it represents a warning against gluttony, overeating and overdrinking. What do you think? ~2025-35519-87 (talk) 00:06, 26 January 2026 (UTC)

I do not think this belongs, unless you have clear evidence of a significantly persistent (mis)interpretation like this. The trouble is that old books, real smelly paper genuine properly published totally WP-reliable source material books, are full of people making mistakes. And it is not constructive for WP to keep repeating these mistakes. Imaginatorium (talk) 06:18, 26 January 2026 (UTC)