Talk:Three Percenters

"Hate group" designation

Thread retitled from Claim not supported by the sources.

"Both the ADL and the Southern Poverty Law Center have designated Three Percenters as a hate group."

There is no designation from either the ADL or the SPLC identifying them as a hate group. Moreover, the SPLC itself states that the Three Percenters “are not a group.” (https://www.splcenter.org/resources/extremist-files/three-percenters/) 5.91.60.173 (talk) 12:16, 28 August 2025 (UTC)

P.S. also note that there is a false balance in the ideological categorization: Nuance lists over a dozen groups as right-libertarian — among them the Three Percenters Original (200,000 members) — whereas only one group is categorized as Christian fundamentalist [The Intercept source] (the White Rabbit Militia), consisting of about six people. 5.91.60.173 (talk) 12:20, 28 August 2025 (UTC)

Three Percenters Original: 200,000 members

https://web.archive.org/web/20200603153823/https://www.dailydot.com/debug/three-percenters-facebook-group-shoot-protesters/

White Rabbits: c. 5 members (Michael B. Hari, Michael McWhorter, Joe Morris, Ellis J. Mack e Wesley Johnson)

https://www.justice.gov/usao-cdil/pr/former-ford-county-resident-sentenced-14-years-prison-charges-related-domestic 5.91.60.173 (talk) 12:28, 28 August 2025 (UTC)

The cited source for the first item noted (hate group designation) does not support the claim. There's no mention of ADL or SPLC pertaining to Three Percenters at the cited pages (nor anywhere in the book that I could locate). For now, I have tagged the claim as failing verification with the cited source. ButlerBlog (talk) 12:39, 28 August 2025 (UTC)

The statement is supported in the introduction to the chapter on "Domestic Extremism" by Mockaitis (2019), preceding the description of Three Percenters along with other extremist groups: Each of the groups selected has been designated a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center and the Antidefamation League and stands at the far right of the political spectrum (p. 67). Email me if you would like a PDF copy of the chapter for reference. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 13:14, 28 August 2025 (UTC) edited 13:23, 28 August 2025 (UTC)

Thanks - I was looking at Mockaitis, but didn't notice that right at the top of the page, I think because it was phrased as "Each

of the groups selected" and I was visually scanning for something else. Regardless, I didn't see that - so to the IP editor: There you go. If you disagree with the cited source as non-nuanced enough, you'd need to establish a consensus that recognizes that (and I don't see that as a likely outcome). ButlerBlog (talk) 13:16, 28 August 2025 (UTC)

@Butlerblog @Sangdeboeuf Hello to both of you. The network is not designated as a hate group in fact. It does not appear on the official hate group lists of the ADL (because it doesn't exists) or the SPLC. I'm not sure whether this is an oversight by the author or something else (outdated data, unreliable sources, bias, etc.). I'm not going to quote step by step Wikipedia's guidelines on up-to-date sources, etc.

https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map/

There's no ADL "hate group" designation 5.91.60.173 (talk) 13:40, 28 August 2025 (UTC)

The article (and the source) say Three Percenters has been designated a hate group, not that it is designated a hate group. Furthermore, both the ADL and SPLC are primary sources for their respective designations of hate groups etc. Wikipedia articles summarize reliable, secondary sources such as the Mockaitis book. The need for reliability and due weight trumps the need to be constantly up to date. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 13:47, 28 August 2025 (UTC) edited 19:03, 28 August 2025 (UTC)

Let me clarify. The ADL does not designate groups, but rather symbols (and in any case, the Three Percenters flag is not on the list). Meanwhile, the SPLC list does not include the Three Percenters. *Perhaps* in past lists you can find individual Three Percenter groups, but never a designation covering all of them. 5.91.60.173 (talk) 13:47, 28 August 2025 (UTC)

@Sangdeboeuf To be even clearer: the ADL does not designate hate groups. It's not that it didn't designate the Three Percenters in particular, but rather that it does not make such designations at all, unlike the SPLC. The source used is simply not reliable. 5.91.60.173 (talk) 13:54, 28 August 2025 (UTC)

The source in question is published by ABC-CLIO, a mainstream academic publisher. The author, Thomas Mockaitis, is a professor at DePaul University with a Ph.D. in history. I'm going to need more evidence than the word of an anonymous commenter before I consider the source to be unreliable. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 14:00, 28 August 2025 (UTC)

The ADL's web page on combating extremism says its database of hate symbols is for "symbols frequently used by white supremacists, anti-government extremists and other hate groups". So they do use the "hate group" label, even if they don't have a formal category for hate groups. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 14:09, 28 August 2025 (UTC)

I don't really understand what we're discussing. That designation simply doesn't exist. The ADL has a public database of hate symbols, not of groups. And the Three Percenters' symbols are not in that database.

While for the SPLC we might pretend that such a designation existed in the past, for the ADL it is a complete falsehood. 5.91.60.173 (talk) 16:04, 28 August 2025 (UTC)

https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbols/search 5.91.60.173 (talk) 16:07, 28 August 2025 (UTC)

You have a response. Restating your same point multiple times isn't going to change the fact that we prioritize secondary sources over primary. Continuing to do so is considered WP:BLUDGEONING. You've stated your case - if other editors agree that that is enough to invalidate the reliability of the current source, they will say so. Otherwise, please put down the stick. ButlerBlog (talk) 16:22, 28 August 2025 (UTC)

I'm not interested in anything that isn't an official guideline. The source conflicts with the official SPLC hate group lists (from 2000 to 2024) publicly available on the official website. The ADL, on the other hand, doesn't even designate hate groups. So far, username has engaged in red herrings ("anonymous user", "IP") without addressing the real issue. 5.91.60.173 (talk) 16:39, 28 August 2025 (UTC)

The real issue is that we prioritize published, secondary sources. I'm not interested in original research as to whether something is an official guideline. If you want to argue that the source by Mockaitis is unreliable, you can open a discussion at WP:RS/N. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 16:54, 28 August 2025 (UTC)

This is not original research. Editors can verify accuracy by consulting multiple sources. It's obvious that the SPLC states the Three Percenters are not a hate group, while another source claims the SPLC says the opposite, that other source is of dubious validity/quality. Then, since it's well known that the ADL does NOT designate groups (which is why we don't even have a Wikipedia category for that), and the author is just speculating, the reliability is highly questionable. There's no need to discuss reliability there, because I'm addressing a specific subject (the Three Percenters), not claiming that it's unreliable (need to be deprecated) in general. 5.91.60.173 (talk) 19:07, 28 August 2025 (UTC)

Reliability always depends on context. If you think the source's reliability here is highly questionable, take it to WP:RS/N. Your other complaints have been answered already. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 19:21, 28 August 2025 (UTC)

If the word "designated" is what's causing consternation, then we could use an alternative like "described" or "labeled". Either way, the term "hate group" is right there on the ADL website for anyone to see. Saying it doesn't exist is just silly. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 23:02, 8 September 2025 (UTC)

There's no ADL list of designated hate groups. Yes, they may use the term "hate group" in general. However, the Three Percenters are neither described as a hate group by the ADL nor listed in their hate symbols db. 5.91.52.210 (talk) 13:46, 15 September 2025 (UTC)

No one is saying there was such a list, or that there needs to be such a list for a group to be designated a hate group. And once again, the source doesn't say is. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 14:48, 15 September 2025 (UTC)