Talk:Table of Ranks

Page needs better name

Table of Ranks is a poor title for this page. First of all each title should stand alone so it should be something like Table of ranks in Imperial Russia. I don't know enough about this subject to know if this is a good title or not and I don't want to do a page move only to have to have it moved again. Second, Wiki capitalization rules on page titles is that only the first word and proper nouns are capitalized.

• Tabel o Rangakh (The Table of Ranks) is the name of the table as given by Peter I, so the capitalization is correct, as per Wiki capitalization rules. I think a more specific title would help, though - something like "Table of Ranks (Imperial Russia)" should work. [06-07-2006]
  • "Table of Ranks (Imperial Russia)" format of title is pointless. There is no other thing called Table of Ranks. Original article title restored. `'mikkanarxi 18:22, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Not true, in 1675, Louis instituted the ordre du tableau (Table of Ranks) making power dependent on rank and seniority (not noble birth).

Recheck a few specific titles

After I did some editing to clean up this table's appearance, I began to think it would be good for an expert to make certain I hadn't changed the proper column positions. I know very little of Peter's system and I specifically wondered about Court Councilors and Privy Councilors, which both sound to me more like court ranks than civil ranks. Thank you.

John Sinclair 09:29, 4 June 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saltlakejohn (talk • contribs)

They were both civil ranks. The names are a bit confusing :) Bazuz (talk) 23:25, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

I've just checked the background for надворный and it actually refers to a system of civil courts of justice (ru:Надворный суд) with jurisdiction over the lower social estates, which originated in 1719 and are similar to the reichshofrat system of the Holy Roman Empire. These courts were led by a Hofrat, a Court Concillor; this was later made into a general beaurocratic rank and survives in Austria to this day. The Privy Councillor similarily originates from Geheimrat, a German successor to the Hofrat rank. So these two titles have originated from German judicial ranks, not English court or civil ranks. I have changed the wikilinks to somehow reflect this.

BTW I made the original translations; I had to cross-translate many specialty titles from German to English, so some errors could remain and a check-up would be appreciated. --Dmitry _{(talk •contibs )} 19:51, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Personal nobility

It seems that the _personal_ nobility was _not_ given from the lowest (14th) rank, as the page currently says. Even Russian Wikipedia says:

"По манифесту 11 (23) июня 1845 года[9] право на потомственное дворянство приобреталось с производством в штаб-офицерский чин (8-й класс) или в чин 5-го класса гражданской службы при условии, что эти чины присвоены не при выходе в отставку. Личное дворянство чиновник получал только с 9-го класса, служащие в более низких чинах имели право на статус личных почетных граждан. В военной службе личное дворянство давали так называемые обер-офицерские чины (не выше 9-го класса)."

Basically, since 1845 you'd need 8th grade at military and 5th grade of civil service (not assigned at retirement) to get heredial nobility; personal nobility was assign from 9th rank, below that gives you a honoured citizen status. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:908:C38:B080:E4CB:2286:4684:D5B8 (talk) 19:31, 2 July 2020 (UTC)