Talk:Sun Yat-sen

Incorrect info in "The first Guangzhou uprising" section.

At the end of this section, it states that Sun Yat-sen took refuge in his brother's home in "Kamaole, Kula". As a native of Maui, I can tell you that Kamaole is not in Kula, but in Kihei. The incorrect information looks like it comes from the "Maui No Ka Oi Magazine" link, which also states the incorrect information. The correct location of his brother's ranch is in Keokea, which is in Kula. You can find reference to this fact in this article in The Maui News: Gathering celebrates the Maui ties of a Chinese revolutionary | News, Sports, Jobs - Maui News Thirashima (talk) 21:14, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

孫中山 or 孫逸仙

Sun Yat-sen's common Chinese name is 孫中山. However, "Sun Yat-sen", his English name, is not the romanization of 孫中山, but the romanization of 孫逸仙. Should 孫中山 be changed to 孫逸仙? Fancy Refrigerator ^(talk) 20:39, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

"孫中山" is the current Chinese translation in the lead section and infobox. Fancy Refrigerator ^(talk) 20:42, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

I am the one who last tweaked the lede I think, so I'm biased, but I think it's the best presentation, and consistent with providing common names more than worrying about snowballs or technicalities. Remsense留 20:45, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

孫中山 is not the Chinese equivalent to "Sun Yat-sen" so it wouldn't make sense to put those two together. Fancy Refrigerator ^(talk) 20:48, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

I see what you mean, but I think I would disagree. A purpose of the lead sentence is to provide the common names of the subject (Here is his common name in English, and now here is his common name in Chinese), though I see how there is an implication that one directly derives from the other, since that is usually the case. Would it be acceptable to specifically state the discrepancy in the footnote already attached to the name statement? Remsense留 21:01, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Other Wikipedias, Spanish Wikipedia for instance, make a distinction between Sun Yat-sen (孫逸仙) and Sun Zhongshan (孫中山). I wonder if English Wikipedia could do the same. Fancy Refrigerator ^(talk) 21:09, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

If you haven't, take a look at WP:COMMONNAME? Maybe that would help guide this discussion. It doesn't directly mention the names in other languages, but it's perfectly analogous, imo. Remsense留 21:15, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

I took a look at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese). There doesn’t seem to be anything useful to guide this discussion. Fancy Refrigerator ^(talk) 18:52, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Yes, MOS:ZH is useful but arguably not quite fully-formed yet. On this point, I don't think policy would precisely help us, because it is very much an edge case, though an important one. Would you be alright with my proposal above, with the distinction made clear in the footnote? Remsense留 19:05, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

I’m alright with your proposal. I think it would help clear things up. Fancy Refrigerator ^(talk) 13:25, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Fancy Refrigerator, I've done so. Remsense留 19:47, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Honourific prefixes

The following elements in the infobox are titles, not honourific prefixes: Father of the Republic of China, Forerunner of the Revolution, and Eternal Premier of the Kuomintang. They do nothing but clutter the top of the infobox and are not even in an appropriate space. I will remove them in one week's time unless other editors have arguments to the contrary. Yue🌙 03:31, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

"Sun" is not a native English word but a Cantonese surname transcription

Pronouncing it as /sʌn/ is inappropriate. So I don't think this undoing is appropriate. @Remsense ZeehanLin (talk) 06:02, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

This is an English-language encyclopedia, and /sʌn/ is the most common rendering of that name in the context of English phonology and orthographic expectations. We are not linguistic prescriptivists—we simply provide what is most useful for the audience, which is how most readers will generally hear the name pronounced by those around them. As previously stated, the Cantonese rendering is also provided in {{Infobox Chinese}}. Remsense ‥ 论 06:06, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

/sʌn/ is the most common rendering of that name in the context of English phonology and orthographic expectations. Citation needed. The pronounciation which most readers will generally hear means most useful? What if their pronunciation is not correct? ZeehanLin (talk) 14:55, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

A quick survey of dictionaries suggests /sʊn/ instead, so maybe it should be swapped with that.

What if their pronunciation is not correct?

Once more, we are not linguistic prescriptivists. Remsense ‥ 论 15:01, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, the pronunciation of the transliterated foreign name should follow the pronunciation of the original language, which reflects a kind of cultural respect. ZeehanLin (talk) 14:59, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Respectfully, if we're going to engage in further discussion on this point it would save a lot of time if they're rooted in site policy, so I'll point you to MOS:DUALPRON. The first sentence is incredibly cluttered at the moment and needs to be trimmed down/some clauses footnoted, but it should probably look more like this than what it looks like now. But the conception that we should ignore the needs of English speakers on an English language encyclopedia is inane. Remsense ‥ 论 15:05, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Based on the above, if you can find a reliable source, /sʊn/ is the best choice because it is close to the pronunciation of the origin language and will not be confused with the star. ZeehanLin (talk) 10:03, 26 August 2024 (UTC)