Talk:Shetland dialect

Requested move 18 February 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) —Nnadigoodluck🇳🇬 18:13, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

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Shetland Scots → Shetland dialect – The name of this article was last discussed in 2012, and the consensus reached was Shetland Scots, a name that, while used by some linguists, is totally unfamiliar to the vast majority of native Shetlanders. I'd like to quote from [this paper], by linguist Viveka Velupillai (which, for full disclosure, I was personally involved with) that, from this Shetlander's perspective, gets the terminology and reasoning behind it exactly right:

The traditional variety spoken on the Shetland Islands has been referred to by different names. The term "Insular Scots" is sometimes used by scholars to indicate the affinities between the varieties spoken on Shetland and on Orkney (see e.g. Johnston 1997; Millar 2007, 2018). The speakers themselves, however, refer to their language as either "Shetland dialect", "Shetland" or "Shetlandic". The latter is controversial and seems to be disliked by most speakers, who tend to prefer the term "Shetland". In this article, I will use the neutral, and by the speakers themselves accepted, term "Shetland dialect" to differentiate between the language and the place.

I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment - that the terminology of a handful of linguists should not override the terminology of the thousands speakers of the dialect.

While it appears that more folk to tend to search for terms like "Shetland Scots" and "Shetlandic" here on Wikipedia, I suspect that most of these searches come from those who are generally unaware of the terminology used here, and therefore search statistics should not be taken as gospel for what is most commonly used to refer to it. In person here in Shetland, I have never heard it naturally called Shetland Scots.

A point brought up against a name similar to this previously was that it doesn't address the question, "dialect of what?" In my mind this is not terribly relevant - there is only one Shetland dialect, which is a dialect of Scots, and that will become immediately clear upon reading the first sentence of the article. The only possible point of confusion is the Norn language, which was its own language and has its own name (mostly) sorted out (and there's a "Not to be confused with" link at the top of the article already). There aren't specific dialects of Scottish Gaelic, Norwegian or anything else like that attributed to Shetland. See other articles such as Suzhou dialect - it's not "Suzhou dialect of Chinese", that's not necessary.

The only other criticism I can think of for this name is that very occasionally, some folk in Shetland like to point out that using the term "Shetland dialect" over just "Shetland" implies that it is somehow a lesser variety of speech - while "Shetland" could be considered a language, "dialect" is taken as an insult. While I understand this reasoning, I think it would be needlessly confusing (as said the previous paper quoted) to have both the place and the variety of speech using the same name in this article.

WP:DIALECT advises that "The term dialect should only be used for distinct but mutually intelligible varieties of a language". This is an accurate assessment of Shetland's variety of speech - it is mostly understandable by Orcadians and to a lesser degree Scots speakers on the Mainland.

The proposed title is recognisable, natural, precise enough, concise enough, and most importantly respects the name used by native speakers - which the current name does not. Griceylipper (talk) 00:30, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

• Support, per this ngram. Colin Gerhard (talk) 14:24, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Insular vocabulary from Norn

An IP is inserting information into the lead WP:UNDUE regarding the amount of vocabulary in insular dialect. There may be something to say about that but not in the lead. Also the sources do not back up the statement being made. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 18:52, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

The sources do back up everything I entered. You clearly did not read them. I only expanded upon and clarified what was already in the introductory paragraphs as per what the sources specifically say. 69.156.38.113 (talk) 00:17, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

"The modern Shetland dialect shares much with other branches of Scots, though the legacy of Norwegian is obvious still in place-names, vocabulary, expressions and pronunciation."

"Norn is thought to have become extinct in 1850 (i.e. the 19th century), after the death of Walter Sutherland, the language's last known speaker, though there are claims the language persisted as late as the 20th century."

What I entered: "A significant amount of Norse influence in vocabulary, expressions and pronunciation has also been retained from the Norn language, which is an extinct North Germanic language spoken on the islands until the early 19th century."

Barnes, Michael (1984) Orkney and Shetland Norn. Language in the British Isles. Ed. Peter Trudgill. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. p.29 states that a paper by Gunnel Melchers "lists the following areas of vocabulary as being particularly rich in Norn words: types of wind and weather; flowers and plants; animals; seasons and holidays; food; tools; materials and colours; movement; whims, ludicrous behaviour, unbalanced states of mind, qualities." 69.156.38.113 (talk) 00:18, 11 September 2022 (UTC) 69.156.38.113 (talk) 00:20, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

What I entered: "Consequently Shetland dialect contains many words of Norn origin. Many of them, if they are not place-names, refer to seasons, weather, plants, animals, places, food, materials, movement, behaviour, feelings, tools, colours and parts of boats."

Either modify it or keep in place, but stop removing cited material. 69.156.38.113 (talk) 00:45, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

There is little point discussing with you as we both know you will keep reinserting your edits without getting any kind of consensus. What I would ask you to reflect on, however, is that the source does not say "a significant amount..." and does not even imply it. Neither is "significant" defined, neither does it say anything about being North Germanic. And although it is undoubtedly true that Norn is North Germanic, it is WP:UNDUE in the lead and unsourced here. I also reiterate my point that adding 3 more references into the lead, for information that cannot even be found in the main body is WP:OVERCITE, a misunderstanding of th epurpose of the lead (it is a summary, and does not contain informatio not in the main body) and it is very messy. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 10:01, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

References

Requested move 16 October 2025

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. AjaxSmack's counter-argument is supported by independent reliable sources, which gives that argument greater weight than other commentary in favour of a move. (closed by non-admin page mover) Celia Homeford (talk) 14:02, 3 December 2025 (UTC)

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Shetland dialect → ShaetlanShaetlan – As of yesterday, Shaetlan has received an ISO 639:3 code (scz) with the name spelled Shaetlan, which is the autonym of the language. "Shetland Dialect" is now inappropriate for the title of this article when it is considered a language in its own right. The term "Shetland Dialect", while widely used locally, is an exonym, and is now inaccurate.

The reason for the spelling "Shaetlan" over "Shetland" is two three-fold - 1) it accurately portrays a large portion of speakers' tendency to pronounce the word with a voiceless /d/, 2) the <ae> reflects the intuitive community spelling convention of primary stress short intercononantal vowel, cf. maet, paet, etc. which haes the same vowel as the first syllable of Shaetlan, & 3) it keeps the language name and place name easily distinguishable when written. This is the style I Hear Dee has adopted while trying to create a standardised orthography for the language.

As per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (languages), because of the use of Shaetlan being exclusive to the language, it would qualify as "unquestionably the primary topic for the name", so "Shaetlan language" seems unnecessary. As per Wikipedia:Article titles, Shaetlan is more precise and more concise, and it is more natural to native Shaetlan speakers as an autonym vs an exonym. This admittedly at the cost of being slightly less recognisable outside of Shetland, however Shaetlan is slowly becoming the new standard name for this language in linguistics circles. I think this is the best compromise here.

After this name change, I intend to do a bit of an overhaul of this article to set the record straight on languagehood and a number of other inaccuracies.

For full disclosure, I am one of the first few signatories to the ISO code change request application. I am a project co-investigator at I Hear Dee. I am also the person who requested this article be renamed last time! A lot has changed in the last 5 years in the Shetland linguistic scene - at the time I made the last request, the name change was a vast improvement over the previous name, but now is an appropriate time to move on. — 🐗 Griceylipper (✉️) 21:04, 16 October 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. TarnishedPath^talk 11:23, 27 October 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. TarnishedPath^talk 02:06, 8 November 2025 (UTC)

I'm more active on the Swedish speaking side of Wikipedia/Wiktionary, but I fully support the move of this article to Shaetlan, as this is the native standard pronunciation of the formerly considered dialect, now language. I also see a growing number of locals using this spelling and this standardisation in social media – it seems to have the general local support. Now what do I know? No, I'm not from Shetland, but I've got family ties to isles and spent a many summers there as a peerie lad. And it is indeed, heartwarming news to read about the new ISO 639 code and linguistic development that has been made in recent years. Admirable work! Well doon! Frodlekis (talk) 10:40, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose. Arguments like "as of yesterday" and "a growing number...using this spelling" should be weighed against WP:RECENTISM, WP:COMMONNAMES and WP:POLA. I'm fine with the removal of "dialect", but Wikipedia is not a compendium of ISO codes or a crystal ball. —  AjaxSmack  16:41, 21 October 2025 (UTC)

  @AjaxSmack While the change request for the ISO code was adopted on 15th October, the change request was submitted on 1st May 2023. This was by no means a flippant change, it required a very detailed application and took significantly longer than it was supposed to. It has been given thorough consideration by SIL. Prof. Velupillai, who was the driving force behind the application, has been suggesting that Shaetlan ought to be considered a language instead of a dialect for many years now.

  The term Shaetlan has appeared in print since at least 1988 (likely longer) to refer to the variety; this is not a neologism of our creation.

  Re: WP:COMMONNAMES, I fully admit this is a compromise (I am open about that above), but to use our native Shaetlan term I think this is the ill-best of the options available. If you wish to propose another alternative please do so. Re: WP:POLA, I fail to see how using a term which only refers to exactly what the article is about is astonishing. This article has existed since 2006, long before an ISO code was a consideration. This is a language of global importance in terms of G-L Mixed languages, so it is not an article purely to satisfy the ISO code list. Crystal balls need not be consulted, I have a well-sourced and long-overdue rewrite of the article in my userspace in progress as we speak. — 🐗 Griceylipper (✉️) 22:22, 21 October 2025 (UTC)

  I did not suggest that the propose title is "a neologism of our creation", but from this Google Ngram, it seems "Shaetlan" is far less common than the alternatives (as it doesn't even register in print sources). Your nomination does not include evidence of widespread adoption of this name to make a WP:COMMONNAMES case. If you wish simply to get rid of the "dialect", consider a move to ShetlandicShetlandic, a name with wide provenance already cited in the article. —  AjaxSmack  00:38, 22 October 2025 (UTC)

  The issue with an Ngram is that it can't take into account what native speakers actually say out loud. As someone who lives in Shetland, and as someone in the language activism scene who has conversations in and about Shaetlan daily, I can tell you that orders of magnitude more locals speak about Shaetlan over Shetlandic. If I counted how many times I heard the word Shetlandic said out loud over the course of a year, I would be able to count it on one hand. Shetlandic is again an exonym with adoption from only a tiny fraction of native speakers, the Ngram results are completely skewed by higher adoption from outside sources and ill-informed linguists. Changing the name to Shetlandic would be a step backwards from the current problematic name of the article. I will say it again: this is a compromise, but it is one that puts native speakers first. — 🐗 Griceylipper (✉️) 10:13, 22 October 2025 (UTC)

  "[W]hat native speakers actually say out loud" should not guide article titles at Wikipedia per WP:UE. Chinese speakers no doubt say "我們講的是中國話", but the article for the language should not be titled 中國話. "Outside sources" are exactly what a general reference like Wikipedia should use. —  AjaxSmack  01:33, 23 October 2025 (UTC)

  I agree that article should be called "Chinese" - and so does ISO, a reliable outside source. ISO is the most "official" source on the name our language has as yet. Until the language receives acceptance in local government, the next most official is UHI's Shaetlan Language Plan.

  You will see from WhirlieWheeter's reply below that the term "Shetlandic" is disapproved of, I can second this sentiment. Would you advocate we rename the Uluru article back to the colonial name, Ayer's Rock? — 🐗 Griceylipper (✉️) 08:20, 23 October 2025 (UTC)

  Oh my… Why do we bother?? Jaybainshetland (talk) 00:00, 28 October 2025 (UTC)

Support. As an L1 Shaetlan speaker living in Shetland, I've used the spelling "Shaetlan" to refer to the language for over 10 years. I personally do not know a single L1 Shaetlan speaker who uses the term "Shetlandic" to refer to the language. "Shetlandic" is a term that has been placed upon the language from outside sources, while in reality it's not used among L1 speakers. "Shetlandic" is a term that I have heard L1 speakers openly dismissing and disapproving of.

Renaming the article to "Shaetlan" acknowledges the adoption of ISO 639-3 code "scz" on 15th October 2025, it preserves the difference between the name of the islands and the language itself, and it allows the name used by its native speakers to be celebrated and acknowledged, rather than suppressing it with an outside term. WhirlieWheeter (talk) 11:54, 22 October 2025 (UTC)

The goal of Wikipedia is not to "celebrate and acknowledge", noble though that might be. It is a general reference work for the entire English-speaking world. —  AjaxSmack  01:33, 23 October 2025 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Languages and WikiProject Scottish Islands have been notified of this discussion. TarnishedPath^talk 11:24, 27 October 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose. Evidence of usage in reliable, English-language sources does not support this move. The ISO designation is a significant development but is insufficient. Ethnologue still contains to no entry for 'scz' (nor 'Shetland' or 'Shaetlan') and Glottolog still uses the name 'Shetland Scots'. A quick look for sources shows only 30 Google Scholar hits for 'Shaetlan' and just 3 on JSTOR. Other names for the language have more hits. I'm sympathetic to the cause and I recognize that there are few publications about this topic each year. I would be more inclined to support this move in the future if authoritative catalogues like Ethnolgogue or Glottoblog (ideally, both) reflect this name and with an assessment of usage by other high quality sources. —Myceteae‍🍄‍🟫 (talk) 00:03, 28 October 2025 (UTC)

  Maybe so, but can you find sources using “Shetlandic” or “Shetland language”? I highly doubt you will, as I believe theirs a snowballs chance of finding a reliably sourced English language citation talking about Shaetlan (a young, geographically limited, fairly endangered language) Jaybainshetland (talk) 16:37, 29 October 2025 (UTC)

  @Jaybainshetland check out the updated proposal below in the subsection Talk:Shetland dialect#Alternative proposal. To answer your question, Google Scholar has 40 hits for "Shetland language", 724 for "Shetland dialect", and 157 for "Shetland Scots". JSTOR has 92 for "Shetland dialect", 6 for "Shetland language", and 20 for "Shetland Scots". This shows most support for "Shetland dialect" but it is reasonable to make an editorial judgement that "Shetland language" is better and more accurate in this case. Overall, the number of publications is low. Three of the common names include "Shetland", which is also known as the name for the location, so including this makes the article title more recognizable. There is not a clear boundary between "languages" and "dialects" but calling this a "language" is reasonable based on the description in the article and in external sources. If you have thoughts on the alternative proposals Shetland language (my preference) or Shetland (language), please consider responding below. —Myceteae‍🍄‍🟫 (talk) 17:08, 29 October 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose per Myceteae and AjaxSmack. Open to amending "dialect", but there's no evidence given that "Shaetlan" is commonly used (as claimed the "new standard name") by sources (not personal use), but instead leaning on advocacy and officialness which are not how titles are decided. Can be discussed again in the future, I do hope it catches on, but Wikipedia follows not leads. DankJae 21:51, 28 October 2025 (UTC)

Alternative proposal

It is now obvious I am not going to muster enough support at this point in time to move to Shaetlan. I am really disappointed by this, knowing that several international language organisations, both our main local news providers and a sizeable portion of the population here have seen the sense to adopt our own native term, and considering the effort that has gone into getting the ISO code under that name. As encouraged by those tactfully opposing, I fully intend to retry for this down the line when these ngrams are more favourable (mark my words!)

So, what do we do? I hope we can all at least agree that having the word "dialect" in the title is still no longer appropriate for a recognised language, so "Shetland dialect" is out. I can't see that "Shetland Scots" is an option either as Shaetlan is now recognised as a language in it's own right, not as a dialect of Scots. As anyone will see from the upcoming rewrite, in many ways Shaetlan shows more influence from Norn than Scots. "Shetlandic" is actively disliked as a colonial exonym by native speakers (as noted above, and myself included) and I would *strongly* recommend against it if it can be at all avoided.

As I see it, our best option is (please vote below if you would agree):

"Shetland (language)" — 🐗 Griceylipper (✉️) 08:30, 29 October 2025 (UTC)

• Support. With the caveat that this could be confusing to readers (and writers!) when one must frequently talk about a language in its setting and constantly disambiguate in the article text (this is exactly why I would much prefer "Shaetlan" = language, "Shetland" = place, and then it's instantly obvious. But that's clearly off the table for now). I don't think native speakers will be opposed except if the article text makes the distinction confusing. I'm guessing that using an ngram here is futile, seeing as it will be difficult to disambiguate the place, the ponies and sheepdogs, etc.— 🐗 Griceylipper (✉️) 08:30, 29 October 2025 (UTC)
• Support Shetland language using natural disambiguation instead of parenthetical disambiguation. There is sufficient support for this in sources. Given that the definition of a language vs. dialect is fuzzy and often loaded and that there are discrepancies in how this language is described, this is a reasonable change. "Shetland language" will be more recognizable to a wider readership. The use of "language" instead of "dialect" is reasonably consistent with description in the current article, more so with the proposed rewrite. @Griceylipper: any objection to Shetland language without the parentheses? —Myceteae‍🍄‍🟫 (talk) 16:15, 29 October 2025 (UTC)

  I am agnostic on parenthesis, whatever is deemed most appropriate.— 🐗 Griceylipper (✉️) 16:20, 29 October 2025 (UTC)

  Support Shetland (language), too, if there is more support for this. —Myceteae‍🍄‍🟫 (talk) 19:47, 29 October 2025 (UTC)

Ping @AjaxSmack @DankJae @Frodlekis @WhirlieWheeter regarding updated proposal. See also: my response to Jaybainshetland in the original thread above. —Myceteae‍🍄‍🟫 (talk) 17:11, 29 October 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose again. "Shetland language" is a) very rare in sources and b) when used is often referring to the Norn language. I'm not trying to be contrarian, but a name that is both uncommon and ambiguous should not be adopted until usage in the real world justifies it; otherwise, this comes close to WP:NOTADVOCACY/WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS or at least WP:CRYSTALBALL. Considering that this major work was published only five years ago, would the current title be that egregious for a few more years until real-world usage matches aspirations? —  AjaxSmack  18:39, 29 October 2025 (UTC)
  • Oops, I misread the new proposal. I don't oppose Shetland (language) if others favour it. I still oppose Shetland language per above. —  AjaxSmack  19:36, 29 October 2025 (UTC)

    This is understandable. I would support either. —Myceteae‍🍄‍🟫 (talk) 19:49, 29 October 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose. The article's sources treat the language variety in question as a dialect (this goes even for the sources in the rewritten article). The title should reflect this. As has been noted already, the proposer appears to be motivated by a desire to right great wrongs. Zacwill (talk) 03:54, 30 October 2025 (UTC)

  It is contradictory to deny the title "language" on this Wikipedia article when Wikimedia's own criteria for new languages is an ISO 639 code, which Shaetlan / Shetland (language) has. The content of many of the sources in the rewrite is older than the ISO code approval, so their classification of languagehood may be out of date. That does not necessarily make these sources unreliable for the rest of their descriptions of the specifics of this variety though.— 🐗 Griceylipper (✉️) 08:22, 30 October 2025 (UTC)

WP:CRYSTAL. It remains to be seen whether sources will write about Shetlandic differently now that it has been assigned an ISO code. Zacwill (talk) 15:01, 30 October 2025 (UTC)

You mean the old sources that were cited when Shaetlan was still considered a dialect? Those sources?

Many more updated sources have cited it as a language, and it has an ISO 639-3, to categorise Shaetlan as anything other than a language is entirely false, and borderline offensive. Jaybainshetland (talk) 22:24, 2 November 2025 (UTC)

• Support. I appreciate this is a compromise but it is a step in the right direction from the current title, which no longer reflects the fact that an ISO code has been allocated to the language. I would favour Shetland (language) over Shetland language, as the latter could refer to either Norn or Shaetlan which would be confusing. WhirlieWheeter (talk) 12:49, 30 October 2025 (UTC)

• Support (Reluctantly)

Although Shaetlan (in my opinion) is a better, more accurate title, theirs clearly not enough support to move the page, therefore i believe this alternative is a good compromise for the time being.

Although I support this title for now, i’d be keen to see this discussed again in the semi-near future. Jaybainshetland (talk) 22:20, 2 November 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose Shetland (language). It hasn't been shown that just "Shetland" refers to the language. I haven't seen any source provided in the article or in this discussion. Almost any other alternative would be better. Vpab15 (talk) 23:18, 4 November 2025 (UTC)

  Shetland absolutely can refer to the language. Shetland (or variant spellings) can refer to the islands, the language or our demonym (e.g. I im Shetland). I don't know enough about ngrams to be able to display the figures, but this is acceptable.

  Given the full discussion above, what is your preferred name? Shaetlan? There is not much option left apart from what I have proposed given every option has its shortfalls. — 🐗 Griceylipper (✉️) 21:57, 5 November 2025 (UTC)

  Any English reliable source that uses "Shetland" to refer to the language? I would prefer other alternative, including "Shetland language". Vpab15 (talk) 23:16, 5 November 2025 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Relisting to hopefully get more discussion on the alternative proposal. TarnishedPath^talk 02:06, 8 November 2025 (UTC)

• Support Shetland language as a temporary alternative, as a descriptive name to replace the current descriptive name, and WP:NATURALDAB. As Norn has long been extinct, not specific to Shetland, and known as Norn, believe there would not be too much confusion compared to this contemporary one, that a hatnote can't do. Open to "Shetland (language)" too. Although do hope we can revisit this in the future to see whether Shaetlan takes off in English. DankJae 10:17, 8 November 2025 (UTC)
• Weak Oppose to original proposal, Weak Accept for Shetland (language) As things stand right now, there is no established consensus amongst linguists that I can see that Shetlandic is indeed a language and not a dialect. I think this is premature. I am only weakly supporting the (language) version because of the ISO code, but even then what is the rush? Allow enough time to pass to see if this really does change the way the world speaks about Shetlandic/Shaetlan. I, too have some concerns about COI and WP:RGW hence why I'd prefer to see more usage and broader support first. MrAureliusR_{Yell at me!} 00:20, 20 November 2025 (UTC)

• Support This seems like a reasonable compromise that balances the autonym with existing literature on the topic. --Snjorulfr (talk) 13:06, 24 November 2025 (UTC)

As demonstrated by Myceteae above, the vast majority of existing sources do not use "Shetland language" when discussing Shetlandic. Zacwill (talk) 14:42, 24 November 2025 (UTC)

The proposal is for "Shetland (language)", not "Shetland language". Mycetae seems to support this proposal, see under AjaxSmack's Opposition comment; though I'm not sure what someone else's support or opposition has to do with my own if I'm quite frank. Snjorulfr (talk) 23:18, 24 November 2025 (UTC)

You specifically referred to "existing literature" as a reason for supporting the move. Mycetae posted a brief survey of the literature above, and it seems to strongly favour the present title. Zacwill (talk) 23:28, 24 November 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Infobox language-family format

@Griceylipper Yes so I truly do agree that we need to keep the updated info that you have published, but honestly, I still truly do not agree with the format of the language-family tree within the infobox. It takes quite a bit of space, and does not match the dedicated format that is used across literally all of the other language pages. We should still at least keep the consistent format, that is displayed as a list-format, instead of a confusing box-like format that takes too much room, and also does not necessarily need to display that much detail either. If it's a mixed language, the language-family tree that should be displayed, should be the one that the current language is mostly based on (in this case, Scots). Fdom5997 (talk) 02:40, 20 November 2025 (UTC)

@Fdom5997 Have a look now and see what you think, this is much more in keeping with what is seen on other language infoboxes while still preserving the mixed ancestry accurately. It would place undue weight to pick only one ancestry or the other, both is a must. — 🐗 Griceylipper (✉️) 21:57, 20 November 2025 (UTC)

It looks great! Definitely approve! And yes both languages in this case should be a must! Fdom5997 (talk) 20:01, 21 November 2025 (UTC)

Cleanup templates

It seems rather unfair to bombard this page with cleanup tags without the courtesy of identifying what the specific problems are here on the talk page.

@Kepler-1229b The Norn language is a crucial part of understanding the formation of this language as it is one of its ancestors. What is the issue?

@Passengerpigeon, "fringe theories" seems wholly excessive. What is the issue? And what is the original research? — 🐗 Griceylipper (✉️) 00:12, 23 November 2025 (UTC)

@Griceylipper After reviewing the article a second time, I think the current state is fine. I will be removing the tag now. 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 01:18, 23 November 2025 (UTC)

@Kepler-1229b: I added the synthesis and fringe tags because the article has drastically changed since the last time I read it; not long ago it said Shetland was a dialect of English with a slight Norse substrate but now it's claiming it's a full-fledged pidgin. According to whom, and has this been known for long enough and with broad enough scientific consensus for us to say so? This all seems a bit drastic, and said information should be in the article; the Shetlands may be isolated but they're still in Scotland, not New Guinea. Passengerpigeon (talk) 19:20, 23 November 2025 (UTC)

The previous iteration of the article did not say it was a dialect of English, it said it was a dialect of Scots. English and Scots are separate languages. The current article does not (and never will) claim it is a pidgin. It is a Mixed Language, which is a distinct classification.

It is a drastic rewrite, as the last iteration of the article was a hodge-podge of poor data thrown together over the course of 19 years and was severely lacking. The current article is much more comprehensive, cohesive and accurate.

The primary research has been conducted by Prof. Viveka Velupillai, one of the world's leading contact linguists, who has spent the last decade living in Shetland and researching the language. No single person since Jakob Jakobsen over 100 years ago has dedicated as much academic attention to the language in Shetland as Prof. Velupillai. But the building blocks of the conclusions drawn by Prof. Velupillai have been visible for well over a century, which is also mentioned in the article with sources.

There is no shortage of sources for you to read about this topic, all are cited throughout the article.

Why can a certain type of language only exist in New Guinea and not Shetland? That's utter nonsense.

You have demonstrated you have not read this article. And if you are going to call Shetland "the Shetlands", a colonial, universally hated term (1 2 3 4 5 6 7), it demonstrates you also have some learning to do about the islands and this topic.

Given your lack of understanding of the topic, I am removing the cleanup templates. — 🐗 Griceylipper (✉️) 09:53, 24 November 2025 (UTC)

@Griceylipper: OK, I'll take a second look. I know it originally said "Scots" but I don't personally believe that Scots is distinct enough to be a full language instead of a dialect; also, my comment about New Guinea didn't mean to imply that a linguistic feature was impossible in Scotland, but rather that since the Shetlands aren't an extreme backwater, one would think that if something of this magnitude existed it would have been discovered earlier. Passengerpigeon (talk) 04:02, 25 November 2025 (UTC)

If you don't believe in Scots, you probably shouldn't be editing this article - just as you probably shouldn't be editing the article on COVID if you don't believe in vaccines.

And anyway, if you don't think Scots is distinct enough to be classed as a separate language, you ought to be far more concerned about Norwegian, Danish and Swedish, which are much more alike each other than Scots and English are to each other.

You would think that linguists who come to Shetland to study a variety that has been marginalised for hundreds of years would realise they can't speak English or Scots to native speakers and expect to hear broad Shaetlan back. But no, many seem to be totally unaware of the practice of knappin, which can render their data useless. They hear Shetland English, and assume it is Shaetlan, and publish rubbish. — 🐗 Griceylipper (✉️) 07:39, 25 November 2025 (UTC)

Justification for recent reverts

I have reverted a number of edits by @~2026-23043-82, the reasoning was far too long to make in the edit summary so here is my justification.

"but in both NRS Census reports since 2011, around 50% of Shetland residents answered saying Yes to being able to speak Scots. The Scottish Government promoted the introduction of the Scots language question in the Census with an ‘Aye Can’ campaign, intending for the Scots question to gather information on any dialect of Scots."

I do not think it is appropriate to place so much emphasis on percentages in the Scottish Census data considering its veracity is extremely tenuous. It would be exactly equivalent of e.g. an Australian census including a question asking "How many bears live near your house?", and expecting answers back to include information on "koala bears", which are not bears. I do think the existence of the Aye Can website is worth a mention, but I am moving that to the note about the problematic census question. Speakers of Shaetlan don't recognise the term "Scots" in referring to their variety and are much more likely to identify as an English speaker, rather than following one website's instructions which are not included with the census.

Due to the failure of the requested move I started, and despite my desire for this article to refer en masse to Shaetlan, until such time it is best that this article is written in a name-agnostic way, which I have tried to maintain. Hence my removal of a couple of mentions of Shaetlan to refer to the language in the article body.

"The language has traditionally been classified as, variously, a dialect of Scots or a dialect of English because of so much Shaetlan vocabulary being shared words with the English or Scots languages."

I do not doubt there is overlap between the vocabulary of Shaetlan, Scots and English. However the assertion that this is the reason that Shaetlan has traditionally been considered a dialect of the latter two languages is unsourced.

"the medium of instruction in all UK schools has always been English."

This is not true, this denies the existence of Gaelic schools. This gets no mention in this article as there is no tradition of Gaelic in Shetland.

"Shaetlan has held a position in education similar to wider society and Shetland workplaces, where it is used regularly in informal conversation."

The medium of instruction in Shetland is invariably English. I do not think there is a fair comparison to be made between a teacher in a position of authority teaching English to Shaetlan children; compared with co-workers informally speaking Shaetlan in the workplace.

"In formal teaching practice it [Shaetlan] is never discouraged"

The idea that Shaetlan is never discouraged in teaching is utterly false. There are countless testimonies of pupils having been punished for speaking Shaetlan (including corporal punishment in the past). I myself (for reference I am 31 years old) have had during my time at school perfectly correct written Shaetlan in my jotters marked as "incorrect" with the equivalent English made as a correction, with no explanation that each are equally valid, equivalent languages. This is active discouragement of Shaetlan, and I have no doubt this practice happens all the time in Shetland classrooms today, and will continue to happen until there is training provided for teachers on this language.

"will feature mostly within lessons exploring local culture, literacy, creativity and the Arts."

This ignores the point that these lessons are extremely infrequent to the point of characterising Shaetlan as a novelty, and often have the opposite intended effect.

"Art created using the language of Shetland has been celebrated within the isles for generations and has been acclaimed internationally, particularly the vast quantity of literature which Shetlanders have written in their mother tongue."

I don't disagree, but such assertions (especially of international acclaim) need citation.

I don't like making such drastic reverts on those with good intentions (which this editor clearly has), however we must make sure statements such as those here are accurate and have reliable citations.— 🐗 Griceylipper (✉️) 17:39, 17 April 2026 (UTC)

Requested move 9 May 2026

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Nom and supporting editors have shown strong evidence that the term "Shaetlan" is gaining traction. Opposers grounded their arguments in policies like WP:COMMONNAME and WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Reminder to participants to assume good faith and not questioning the motives or personal backgrounds of others. (non-admin closure) Feeglgeef (talk) 04:10, 3 June 2026 (UTC)

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Shetland dialect → ShaetlanShaetlan – I am reopening this discussion as the title "Shetland Dialect" is archaic, inaccurate, and may even be seen as offensive, I can provide a multitude of sources using Shaetlan ad the name of the language. Jaybainshetland (talk) 16:00, 9 May 2026 (UTC) — Relisting. Jeffrey34555 (talk) 16:14, 16 May 2026 (UTC) — Relisting. Jeffrey34555 (talk) 18:13, 23 May 2026 (UTC)

https://www.shetland.uhi.ac.uk/about-us/shaetlan-language-plan/

https://www.shetnews.co.uk/2025/10/15/shaetlan-receives-full-recognition-as-a-language/

Shaetlan. A new language wi aald røts. Kalafine-Skrits. 2025. ISBN 1068457317. (I'm not referencing a particular page/chapter, as Shaetlan is used extensively in the entire book as the name for the language)

https://www.scottishbeacon.com/news/community-voices/giving-shaetlan-shetlands-native-tongue-the-respect-it-deserves/

https://www.omniglot.com/bloggle/?p=617

https://www.historicenvironment.scot/about-us/news/jarlshof-story-translated-into-shaetlan-for-the-first-time/

Jaybainshetland (talk) 16:15, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

• Oppose For several reasons. It is not good practice to re-open something like this after only a few months. The term "Shetland dialect" is reasonably comprehensible to most English speakers, "Shaetlan" is rather obscure. This is the English-language Wikipedia, not the Shaetlan or Shetland dialect Wikipedia. The question of where we draw the line between a language and a dialect is a complex one, some organisational decision somewhere doesn't clinch it. PatGallacher (talk) 19:06, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

  English speakers shouldn't be presented an outdated, inaccurate term, a term that as i have said before, is not only archaic, but is increasingly being seen as offensive.

  
  

  English Language wikipedia editors seem to be very keen to shut down any kind of discourse about the Shaetlan language, i'll assume you're acting in WP:GOODFAITH but it's definitely not appropriate to shut down discussions around moving the article, especially when i assume other people discussing the matter in detail have a lot more knowledge on the subject and have done a lot more research? If you can't take Shaetlan seriously as a language, then maybe its best you stay out of the conversation. Jaybainshetland (talk) 20:06, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

  I know how opening a fresh RM too soon can be wracking; however, just as a note of procedure, editor PatGallacher, the previous RM went to move review. At MRV the "not moved" decision was overturned to "no consensus". While that did not change the outcome of that RM, it did have an effect on how long to wait to begin a new RM. Since the recommendation for a no-consensus outcome is to wait at least three months before starting again (where a "not moved" wants you to wait at least one year), this RM, which opened about three months after the MRV decision, appears to be within the bounds of due process. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. – welcome! – 03:00, 24 May 2026 (UTC)

• Weak support. It seems "Shaetlan" is increasing in usage in English-language sources, though had this move request been done a few years later it would remove possible WP:RECENTISM in the name of the language. However, because this is the name the ISO 639 code uses, it is more likely to be used. 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 06:47, 21 May 2026 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Languages has been notified of this discussion. Jeffrey34555 (talk) 18:13, 23 May 2026 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. While sources are using the new term, cherry picking the ones that are is not particularly helpful when you don't bring up the bulk of sources that use the old name. Wikipedia is not for setting the record straight, it's a lagging indicator and usually that means it takes several years to see a shift in usage, this was too fast after the previous RM. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 15:06, 24 May 2026 (UTC)
• Oppose. A handful of webpages are not sufficient evidence that the term "Shaetlan" has achieved widespread acceptance. The claim that the current title is "offensive" is laughable. Zacwill (talk) 07:53, 25 May 2026 (UTC)

  Laughable to you maybe, but not to the people affected. I'm glad the lives, culture and language of real people brings you such amusement Zac. Also considering you are an open and proud unionist/monarchist, maybe you should sit down when it comes to issues like this.

  Your profile gives me a very clear indication that you are not acting in good faith, and your "laughable" comment only cemented this. Jaybainshetland (talk) 17:18, 26 May 2026 (UTC)

  I understand that it means a lot to you to have your language named correctly and given the status it deserves, but this is the English Wikipedia, not Scots or Shetlandic or any other language edition. I am concerned that this battle on Wikipedia, however well intentioned, is a diversion of energy that would be better spent building concrete institutions. Why is there not as much debate about how to implement Shetland Medium Education, instead of arguing about a name online? Until the language is present in classrooms, government offices, and the media as a tool for work, not just as an object of 'cultural heritage,' any renaming on Wikipedia will remain merely symbolic—or, or as I call it, 'folklore.

  My advice is this: stop fighting for labels and start fighting for infrastructure. If the language doesn’t become useful and necessary for the education of future generations, it won’t matter one bit what is written on Wikipedia, because in 30 years, it might not even be in active use anymore. Vidnik2 (talk) 14:06, 2 June 2026 (UTC)

Support. I don't really buy "your evidence doesn't count" as a valid counter-argument against someone presenting sources in support of their stance, but I decided to humor it and go look for sources published after the change myself, searching both using "Shaetlan" and "Shetland dialect", and to me it seems Shaetlan has reached the point of being the WP:COMMONNAME.

I could not find any using "Shetland dialect" published after the ISO update. ⹃Maltazarian ^{ᚾparley$\lor$investigateᛅ} 19:22, 30 May 2026 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.