Talk:Service Corps of Retired Executives

Service Corps of Retired Executives

Moved from User talk:Jeraxmoira § Service Corps of Retired Executives

 – Jeraxmoira🐉 (talk) 05:52, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I see that you are a very busy Wikipedia editor but I am extremely disappointed that you have chosen to place this article in draft mode because you feel that it "needs more sources to establish notability". First, with regards to notability, this organization was created by an act of the United States Congress in 1964. It has over 350 offices throughout the U.S. has 10,000 volunteers and has given free business advice to over 10,000,000 business since its creation nearly 60 years ago. Who in the U.S. has not heard of SCORE? Regarding sources, all of this is extensively documented in a dozen reliable sources in the article which include:

• The United States Small Business Administration
• A bill introduced in the United States Senate by Senator Joni Ernst to upgrade the organization
• An article from Inc Magazine
• An article from The Washington Daily News
• An article from The Buffalo News
• An article from The United States Chamber of Commerce
• An article from MarketWatch
• An article from Newsweek magazine
• An article from the New York Post
• An article from Forbes magazine

I have been a Wikipedia editor for over 18 years and I have edited over 3,000 pages and written 31 articles. I have never had this experience with any other reviewer and I am at a complete loss as to how I should proceed. BuffaloBob (talk) 23:40, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Hi BuffaloBob, It doesn't matter who has created the organization, as it needs to pass WP:ORG to be notable. The number of offices, volunteers and the fact that people have heard about SCORE do not make it notable.

Here is my source eval.

• Encyclopedia source
• Primary source
• Primary source By U.S. Chamber of Commerce
• The coverage in this magazine looks good towards GNG Y
• Press release Jeraxmoira🐉 Yes, this is a press release but it is from an independent third party.
• Press release
• Press release
• Reads like an advertisement disguised as an article WP:NEWSWEEK (2013–present)
• No significant coverage
• The forbes article contributed by Next avenue is suspicious as well.

The external links that you have added "How to become a Certified SCORE Mentor", "How to request free business advice" and the other press releases only makes it look like the intention was to promote SCORE.

Feel free to submit the article for a review, another reviewer may evaluate it. Thank you Jeraxmoira🐉 (talk) 05:41, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Seems like the encyclopedia source lists a bibliography that almost certainly meets NCORP. Moreover, while secondary vs tertiary can sometimes matter for questions of WP:DUE and precision, I would still generally count encyclopedia coverage itself as a viable GNG-building source (provided that the encyclopedia itself is reputable). _signed, Rosguill ^talk 22:26, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

User:Jeraxmoira; I believe that I have made the the requisite edits to meet with your approval. If you agree then I would request that you publish the article which would be more efficient than if I resubmitted it through the portal only to have another reviewer take the time that you have already invested. If you are not in agreement please be more specific at to what you feel is inadequate. BuffaloBob (talk) 18:43, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

As Rosguill mentioned, just by using the sources that the Inc. used in their article will make this notable. AfC is not necessary, so feel free to move it back to mainspace when you are sure it's ready. Jeraxmoira🐉 (talk) 19:54, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

User:Jeraxmoira, have you actually marked the page as "reviewed'? BuffaloBob (talk) 18:59, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

No, I have not. Jeraxmoira🐉 (talk) 19:29, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Possible source

@BuffaloBob:, @Jeraxmoira:

Hello. I indirectly came across this talk page via one of Jeraxmoira's edits. I found a research (review) article pertaining to SCORE and I am wondering if this would be useful or acceptable as independent sourcing. Here is link to this article online . At the bottom of the first page of the article (p.525) you will notice the name, volume number, and issue number -- of the publication -- along with the page numbers (525-548). It also has a DOI number. Well, check it out. The Hein Online database is how I accessed this in the first place ---Steve Quinn (talk) 15:30, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

The first part of this Washington Post article may be useful . The first part discusses SCORE and the problems it faces. The second part is an interview with the VP of that organization at that time. Not sure if the any of the interview would be useful. It can also be accessed via Gale. The document number is: GALE|A392105250. The title there is "SCORE has a plan to stay relevant" ----Steve Quinn (talk) 15:47, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Steve, thank you so much. Your suggestions are helpful. BuffaloBob (talk) 21:03, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Rename to SCORE

I propose the article be renamed "SCORE (Service Corp of Retired Executives)". SCORE uses the acronym and not the organization's original name on their website. The change reflects the inclusion of volunteers who are not retired or were not an executive.Sandcherry (talk) 15:08, 4 September 2025 (UTC)

I agree with this recommendation. If I had thought of it when I created the page I would have done that. I don't believe that I have the authority to make this change. BuffaloBob (talk) BuffaloBob (talk) 15:48, 4 September 2025 (UTC)

I made the change. Thanks for creating the article.Sandcherry (talk) 17:26, 4 September 2025 (UTC)

Title change was reverted by Pppery. Formal request was added below.Sandcherry (talk) 12:00, 5 September 2025 (UTC)

Requested move 5 September 2025

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus is against a move; there were some votes for moves to a different title but no consensus for these. CoconutOctopus talk 20:06, 2 October 2025 (UTC)

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Service Corps of Retired Executives → SCORE (Service Corp of Retired Executives) – SCORE transitioned from the original name to SCORE to reflect the inclusion of individuals who are not retired executives. Using an acronym is a common practice such as IBM, KFC, and 3M. Sandcherry (talk) 11:56, 5 September 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. Tenshi! (Talk page) 23:32, 16 September 2025 (UTC) — Relisting.  veko. (user | talk | contribs) he/him 18:17, 25 September 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:Acronym (name)/WP:Article titles#Avoid ambiguous abbreviations. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 14:30, 5 September 2025 (UTC)
• Support SCORE changed the organization's name to SCORE similar to Kentucky Fried Chicken changing their company name to KFC. Both are consistent with Wiki's article naming policy. SCORE uses the SCORE name on government filings including their tax returns. The Small Business Administration, SCORE's partner, refers to SCORE as SCORE and not Service Corp of Retired Executives. Since SCORE is "known primarily by its abbreviation and that abbreviation is primarily associated with the subject (e.g. PBS, NATO, Laser)", I support the change with the former name in parentheses.Sandcherry (talk) 12:14, 14 September 2025 (UTC)

  As the nominator it's implied you support your own nomination, and hence "Support" in bold is unneeded and causes confusion. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 16:10, 5 September 2025 (UTC)

  I provided additional information supporting the move including refuting your implication that the name change violates Wiki article naming policy. Do you have any other reasons for opposing the move?Sandcherry (talk) 16:59, 5 September 2025 (UTC)

  The problem is that the abbreviation is not primarily associated with the subject, which is proved by SCORE being a disambiguation page. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 17:20, 5 September 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose per Pppery. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 04:06, 6 September 2025 (UTC)
• Support but recommend the name change to "SCORE Association" as this is currently the legal name of the organization which was change to SCORE Association in 2004. In the article it should me noted that the original name was Service Corp of Retired Executives and that it was changed to SCORE Association on March 5, 2004. A redirect page of Service Corp of Retired Executives to SCORE Association should be established.

BuffaloBob (talk)

I support your recommendation. Using an organization's current legal name instead of its former name is consistent with WP:Common sense. Since SCORE Assocation is primarily associated with the subject and not an acronym, your suggestion should satisfy * Pppery *'s concerns.Sandcherry (talk) 17:33, 7 September 2025 (UTC)

Re "SCORE Association", I've thought about it for a long time and been unable to form an opinion on it, other than that I agree it is better than "SCORE (Service Corp of Retired Executives)". * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 05:01, 2 October 2025 (UTC)

Proposal If there are no objections to BuffaloBob's recommendation, I will rename the article "SCORE Association" and close out this discussion next week.Sandcherry (talk) 12:14, 14 September 2025 (UTC)

Please leave the act of closing this discussion to someone who is not WP:INVOLVED. * Pppery * _{it has begun...}. 17:28, 14 September 2025 (UTC)

Do you have any reasons to oppose the recommendation? Sandcherry (talk) 19:58, 14 September 2025 (UTC)

Nothing to do with Pppery opposing anything but the policies and norms we follow. Read WP:RM anf related pages. Other than a few exceptions that don't apply here, the person who opened a requested move cannot close and move the page. Skynxnex (talk) 00:50, 17 September 2025 (UTC)

Since there are no objections to the name change proposed by BuffaloBob and you are not an involved editor, please consider moving the page to "SCORE Association" and closing out the move request.Sandcherry (talk) 02:05, 17 September 2025 (UTC)

Why are you in such a hurry? Largoplazo (talk) 11:07, 18 September 2025 (UTC)

I moved the page as per a request on my talk page. WhisperToMe (talk) 04:40, 18 September 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose The original proposal is improper, I believe, in having both the name and the acronym. I also disagree with the SCORE Association proposal as I don't have the impression it's ordinarily called that. The organization is ordinarily known as SCORE, so it would be nice to use that as the title, but that's a disambiguation term and will stay that way unless a consensus arises that this organization is the primary topic. So the best natural disambiguation is to leave the title as it is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Largoplazo (talk • contribs) 11:19, 18 September 2025 (UTC)

  Having just noticed that I'd missed the key point, which was that the original full name of the organization has been discarded, I just struck out my last sentence. That being the case, I'd suggest SCORE (organization), but, despite my earlier objection from when I felt that infrequency of use made it an inferior choice, I could now also support SCORE Association. Largoplazo (talk) 23:27, 29 September 2025 (UTC)

  I don't think "SCORE (organization)" is disambiguated sufficiently from SCORE International or SCORE! Educational Centers. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 05:00, 2 October 2025 (UTC)

  How about "SCORE (volunteering organization)"? —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:09, 2 October 2025 (UTC)

• Support a move, not the proposed one. I think SCORE Association is preferable to the current title and seems to be both the official name and natural disambiguation. (And is not a made up name, since they do use it occasionally (see the copyright notice on their homepage).) MOS:ACROTITLE seems to discourage disambiguating actual acronyms, although this is just a former acronym, so SCORE (association) is also a possibility. Skynxnex (talk) 17:14, 18 September 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose. Nothing wrong with the current name. Solution in search of a problem. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:56, 22 September 2025 (UTC)

  Other than it is not the name of the organization?Sandcherry (talk) 19:59, 29 September 2025 (UTC)

  What I now see was key point in the proposal escaped my notice: that that was the name of the organization! I'm leaving my OPPOSE above because a title shouldn't have both a full name and its abbreviation in it, but I'll strike out the part where I'd missed the point. Largoplazo (talk) 23:25, 29 September 2025 (UTC)

  Thank you for your explaining your rationale and your support of the revised proposal (SCORE Association) which does not include the organization’s full name and abbreviation.Sandcherry (talk) 01:35, 30 September 2025 (UTC)

  It's just followed the modern (and, in my opinion, exceptionally irritating) trend of adopting its abbreviation as a trading name. Thereby abandoning any actual meaning in its name (and making it hard for Wikipedia!). In the past, when an organisation has adopted such an acronym as its name and we can't move it to that acronym then we've kept the original name. Is it actually known as the SCORE Association? If not, I'd oppose that. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:17, 30 September 2025 (UTC)

  Yes, see the copyright statement at the bottom of their home page.

  Do you have examples of cases where an abandoned full name was kept as a title here? Largoplazo (talk) 16:52, 30 September 2025 (UTC)

  When did they begin to disavow the spelled-out name? Is that in the article? —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:25, 30 September 2025 (UTC)

  The Service Corp of Retired Executives organization transitioned to SCORE Association and copyrighted SCORE in 1975. The organization has been known as the SCORE Association since then with SCORE being a shorthand reference for the association. This is similar to IBM Corporation being referred to as IBM. Sandcherry (talk) 19:33, 30 September 2025 (UTC)

  That 1975 date for dropping the original name isn't in the article. Having some source for that and adding it to the article would be nice. In fact, it looks like most independent sources cited in the article still say SCORE stands for "Service Corps of Retired Executives" and don't call it a "former" name: , , , . The Forbes article says it's a former name but looks unreliable per WP:FORBESCON and it also doesn't provide a date. I'd be very surprised if Inc. would write a profile of an organization using a long-obsolete name. I suspect the long-form name was just de-emphasized, but never completely dropped. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:49, 2 October 2025 (UTC)

  I did not find any examples of articles with an abandoned full name. There are many company and organization articles with acronyms as the title instead of their original name such as KFC, IBM, 3M, BMW, AT&T, NBC, and TCBY. Some of these name changes predate Wikipedia. Other examples including an acronym are CSX Transportation and CVS Health. They are generally referred to as CSX and CVS. Sandcherry (talk) 00:37, 1 October 2025 (UTC)

  Do you have examples of cases where an abandoned full name was kept as a title here? -> Talk:Kaiser Family Foundation#Requested move 16 February 2024 is the one I remembered off-hand. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 04:57, 2 October 2025 (UTC)

  The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People article was renamed NAACP in 2006. The stated rationale was "The NAACP no longer refers to itself as the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, but simply as the NAACP. National Association for the Advancement of Colored People should redirect to NAACP, not vice-versa, as is now the case. The NAACP is almost exclusively known only by its acronym and is widely known and used in that form." Since SCORE is also almost exclusively known only by its acronym and has been for 50 years, SCORE or SCORE Association are logical article titles for the organization. Sandcherry (talk) 14:36, 2 October 2025 (UTC)

  You are repeatedly missing the point. If this were the primary topic for SCORE then I wouldn't object to moving it to that title. But it's not, so all of the dozens of examples of other pages titled with pure acronyms you've brought up are irrelevant. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 15:33, 2 October 2025 (UTC)

  The Wikipedia article about NAACP doesn't say the long-form name has been abandoned. It may be de-emphasized, but not completely dropped. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 19:09, 2 October 2025 (UTC)

References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Post-closure comments:

• Do you object to moving the article to SCORE Association? Does this satisfy your objection to using only the acronym? The move would be consistent with the naming of other articles with SCORE or Score in their names including SCORE (software), Score Media and Score Entertainment. Sandcherry (talk) 20:54, 2 October 2025 (UTC)

True. By contrast, SCORE dropped Service Corp of Retired Executives years ago when volunteers were no longer limited to retired executives. Sandcherry (talk) 20:58, 2 October 2025 (UTC)

Requested move 2 October 2025

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Tenshi! (Talk page) 12:42, 10 October 2025 (UTC)

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Service Corps of Retired Executives → SCORE AssociationSCORE Association – rename per Association's name - see closed discussion for additional inforamation Sandcherry (talk) 21:15, 2 October 2025 (UTC)

• Comment I've reverted Sandcherry's bold move of this page to SCORE Association performed immediately before they opened this RM. Please don't do that. (I've also corrected the RM request to the correct current title.) Skynxnex (talk) 21:35, 2 October 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose PLEASE WP:DROPTHESTICK. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 22:22, 2 October 2025 (UTC)
• Leaning against: I have further confirmed that the long-form name has not been replaced. The name of the organization is enshrined in federal law. As mentioned in the Wikipedia article, the organization was chartered by an act of congress. Congress has never replaced the name. Current federal law still includes the spelled-out name (see 15 U.S.C. § 637 and this and this). They may not like the long-form name very much and may not use it very often, but it still exists (and congress may not be so enthusiastic to replace the name with a meaningless string of characters). See also this. I think this explains why we still find the long-form name in most independent sources. In addition to Inc. and others mention above, ProPublica also uses it as its headline name for the organization. Here is one place on SCORE's own website that uses it. Most people are not familiar with the organization and will find the long-form name more understandable to get a rough idea of what it is. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 07:22, 3 October 2025 (UTC)

  Here is additional information about SCORE for your consideration. SCORE Association and the associated SCORE Foundation are non-profit organizations and not government agencies. The federal government has partially funded SCORE since its creation via annual grants administered by the SBA. SCORE is not included in the FY26 budget starting in 4Q25 so is now wholly independent of the federal government. SCORE uses SCORE Association in communications to the government including tax returns, OIG audit in 2019, etc. The SBA refers to the SCORE Association as SCORE or SCORE Association on their website and reports to congress. The SCORE website does not mention Service Corps of Retired Executives except for the one article in their library from a local chapter that you found. SCORE dropped the name years ago when volunteers were no longer limited to retired executives. Sandcherry (talk) 17:49, 5 October 2025 (UTC)

  Wikipedia prefers to look to independent sources rather than taking guidance from self-published material from those who are "in charge" of its subjects. Wikipedia generally prefers to lag behind such sources rather than lead the way toward what it considers a desired outcome. Most independent sources seem to include the spelled-out name, perhaps to help their readers understand the subject. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 07:50, 6 October 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose. I suggest that this article isn't about a particular corporation, but rather about a set of programs and organizations understood as a single social entity. A crucial piece of this puzzle, the national association, has rebranded itself and legally renamed itself. However, one could interpret "Service Corps of Retired Executives" as a federal program that currently happens to be administered by the SCORE Association. The Small Business Reauthorization Act of 1997 describes SCORE as one of several "programs established under the Small Business Act". The Domestic Volunteer Service Act of 1973 says:

  The Director [of the Small Business Administration] is authorized to establish and conduct, and to recruit, select, and train volunteers for (and to make grants or enter into contracts therefor), volunteer programs, including a Service Corps of Retired Executives (SCORE) and an Active Corps of Executives (ACE)

  The name "Service Corps of Retired Executives" is still in use in countless places in federal law, and has unique tax effects eg. 38 CFR 3.262(q)(2). It is also found in various state laws, eg. CA, SD.
  I believe, but am not sure, that "SCORE Association" refers to the national organization as opposed to the chapters, akin to "JCC Association of North America" or "United Way Worldwide", where Jewish Community Center or United Way is the common name for the organization or movement that consists of both a national organization and local chapters. In other words, the former name of the national organization was "Service Corps of Retired Executives Association". Contrary to this interpretation, some chapters seem to use the name SCORE Association as well. Daask (talk) 05:01, 6 October 2025 (UTC)

  Congress considered, but did not pass, a bill that would have renamed the Service Corps of Retired Executives understood as a federal program to the SCORE program. That bill notably contained this definition:

  The term ‘SCORE Association’ means the Service Corps of Retired Executives Association or any successor or other organization that receives a grant from the Administrator to operate the SCORE program.

  I think that's where I got the "happens to be administered" idea above. Daask (talk) 06:01, 6 October 2025 (UTC) Daask (talk) 06:01, 6 October 2025 (UTC)

References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.