Talk:Robert Charles Bates

"The first certified Black architect"

There are a lot of citations that read, Bates was "the first certified Black architect" - but none of them have specified where he was certified, or how he was certified? I am not sure in the 1890s there were state architecture licenses, this needs to be resolved before it is added to the article. PigeonChickenFish (talk) 02:46, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Errors

The back half of this item is likely incorrect. Robert Charles Bates, a relative who taught at the Tome school for 40 years and died in Spencer on May 2, 1950, was white and didn’t attend Claflin University. It seems two Robert Charles Bates, similarly born near Columbia, SC, have been confused. Flab99 (talk) 14:42, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

I removed the 1950 obituary citation because it doesn't fully match, which seems to be the confusion. The information about the Tome school comes from Dreck Spurlock Wilson, 2004, which is a reliable source WP:RS. PigeonChickenFish (talk) 00:47, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

References

I agree about the Wilson source but continue to be perplexed that my great grandfather who Wilson accurately points out worked at the reformatory school in Elmira and the Tome school in Port Deposit for four decades identified as white in the all census years I’ve seen beginning in 1910. Within our family memory (my mom, his granddaughter, is still alive and spent time with him), there is conjecture he was mixed race but there has been no mention of his pioneering time at Claflin University as significant architect. Nor any clarity about his birth parents other than his father was born in SC and his mother Mass. So all a bit confusing Flab99 (talk) 14:41, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

I am not sure what happened, but at this point it would take a lot more reliable supporting sources to debunk the Elmira and the Tome school connection (which was found in Wilson). The 1950 obituary appears to have not fully matching info, so that was easy to remove. The name Robert Charles Bates is somewhat common at that time period too. PigeonChickenFish (talk) 21:25, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

I have done added research with Claflin yearbooks, Tome school, and original materials held by Nancy Balf, Bates’ granddaughter. I have corresponded with the main source of this item, Dreck Wilson, and other researchers cited in his dictionary entry. I had doubts that my great grandfather, Robert Charles Bates, born in Kingville, SC and died in Spencer, NY (1950), was the same Robert Bates cited as a pioneer architect and instructor, but I have since confirmed that they are the same person. Claflin University yearbooks in this period published the names of graduates (and he did graduate, per the yearbook, in 1888) but also alumni notes noted where alums currently worked. In the 1896 Claflin yearbook, graduate Robert Charles Bates was listed as working at the New York State reformatory in Elmira. Later, he left for his job at the Jacob Tome school, which was an affordable private school for area male students. This Wiki post errs in describing Tome as a school for “Black juvenile delinquents and orphans.” That wasn’t its orientation, per numerous newspaper reports on its founding and the book, “Jacob Tome Institute and Its Schools,” (1995)by William M. Hogue.

In my emails with Dreck Wilson, editor of the dictionary entry about Bates, he acknowledged that some of the information provided to him by Claflin University librarians was inaccurate. A key piece of that was a mistaken photograph of Bates, which was of a student of his. Bates was extremely fair skinned which has added to the confusion and perhaps is why no photo was published in Wilson’s dictionary or in any of the social media posts published about Bates by Claflin University. Unfortunately Claflin librarians/archivists have not responded my emails or phone calls to help.

At minimum the Wiki item should provide the confirmed details of Bates’ life to enable future research.

Corrections:

Robert Charles Bates was born in Kingville, SC, on Jan. 27, 1869, died at 81, in Spencer, NY, on May 2, 1950 (per obit in the Ithaca Journal, May 2,1950 — note Kingville is now the preferred spelling though decades ago it was Kingsville; copy of funeral service announcement that includes dates of birth, birthplace, and death (from granddaughter’s collection)

Correction

There is no evidence his father was a farmer. In later census documents the only information Bates provides is that his father was from SC and his mother from Massachusetts. He doesn’t identify their names or professions.

Correction

As previously noted Bates graduated from Claflin in 1888. Sources: multiple Claflin University yearbooks and resume info that Bates provided. In his faculty bio from the Tome School he cites his school and graduation date as: “State Agricultural College of South Carolina, 1888” or in his obit, the “University of South Carolina, 1888.” The former citation is more accurate. The state agricultural college ran under the auspices of Claflin University until the two schools separated after Bates graduation.

Correction

Please delete, “In a turn of events and despite not graduating”

Bates was hired as an instructor in carpentry in 1888 and advanced to professor of architectural and mechanical drawing and superintendent of manual training before leaving Claflin in 1894. The Freedmen’s Aid Society and Southern Education Society was instrumental in funding and supporting the university.

Sources: Claflin University yearbooks, resumes, obit, Freedmen’s Aid Society annual reports

Correction

needs a citation for “despite being poorly written”

Correction

In 1896, Bates moved to upstate New York to start the manual training department at the New York State Reformatory in Elmira.

Sources: resume, obit

Correction

Bates was hired by Port Deposit, Maryland’s Tome School in 1900 as director of manual training and shop work. Bates spent the next four decades at Tome, working there until his retirement in 1940.

Prior to his death in 1950, Bates lived with his spouse Maybelle Dean Bates in Spencer, New York. They had five children: Robert, Harold, Ralph,Isabelle, and Dorothy.

An unanswered question about Bates is why he didn’t continue the architectural career he started at Claflin. The architect and part time historian Zach Rice who wrote about Bates’ career was unable to find any architectural work credited to him after his move North. Bate did accelerate his focus on manual training, studying the topic abroad prior to accepting his job in 1896 in New York State. Subsequently he published widely about manual training and lectured regularly.

Sources: family archives, resume, obit

I will follow with photos of source material cited above Flab99 (talk) 17:01, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

Hello Flab99, thanks for the update and all the work. Unfortunately we cannot use "family archives", funeral announcements, or resumes for citations on Wikipedia. Please review WP:RS. Most of what you have stated above falls in to the category of "not reliable sources" for Wikipedia purposes. The obituary and yearbooks however could potentially work for citations, we would need the full citation details and any links to the sources online (if they exist). A photograph of a source is not that helpful in this scenario, unless its something we cannot access another way. PigeonChickenFish (talk) 20:34, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

The term "despite being poorly written" in the article has two inline citations already provided with URL links, it would likely have come from one of those two sources. PigeonChickenFish (talk) 20:37, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

"despite being poorly written" appears to have come from Wilson's book, I removed it from WP since its not that relevant. Also Wilson's book has not been the most helpful for this Bates' bio. PigeonChickenFish (talk) 20:51, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

Flab99 I am going over your notes here and seeing if I can find some of these missing citations and details now, to ease the burden. I do appreciate your work on this. These could still be two different people based on all the sources I am finding and linking here, nothing is naming his undergrad degree for example or his earlier career. I am wondering if maybe the confusion is everything after 1897 that was written by Dreck Spurlock Wilson? The Claflin University yearbooks (circa 1888) would be helpful, esp. if they can connect the career.

To clarify, was your relative (with the same name and career) a white man, or a white-passing black man? I was confused when you started the thread with he was white, and the Wilson book is explicitly about black architects, and Claflin University being a HBCU. – PigeonChickenFish (talk) 20:43, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

• Bates worked at Tome School for Boys, with educational and teaching career details.
• Bates' obituary, 1950, worked at Tome School
• Maybelle Dean Bates related

References

Thanks for your work here. I'm certain they are one in the same person. As I mentioned the proof is in the Claflin University yearbooks. The links are below. Specifically in the 1896-97 Yearbook, in the alum notes, R. Charles Bates, having left Claflin a year earlier, is reported now at his new job, general superintendent of manual training, Elmira, NY.

My research suggests he was a white-passing black man when he went North. Wilson, in his email exchange with me, thought that might be the case also, noting that in the Jim Crow era it would be unusual for a black man to be hired for the prominent job he got in Elmira at the reformatory.

Claflin University Yearbook 1891

https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/2203/images/32761_622204_0461-00013?usePUB=true&_phsrc=nXt1271

Claflin University Yearbook 1889-90, (p.37 cites Robert C Bates as graduate of Claflin (1888) working as superintendent of carpentry)

Claflin University Yearbook 1892-1893 (p. 10 cites R. Charles Bates as professor of architectural and mechanical drawing, p.29 cites Bates as graduate (1888), working as general superintendent of manual training

Claflin University Yearbook 1895-96 (cites R. Charles Bates as professor of architectural and mechanical drawing and director of manual training dept

Claflin University Yearbook 1896-97 (cites R. Charles Bates in alumni listings as working as general superintendent manual training, Elmira, NY)

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiug.30112110177083&seq=9

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiug.30112110177083&seq=91

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiug.30112110177083&seq=175

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiug.30112110177083&seq=208 Flab99 (talk) 14:15, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

Another observation, I was not able to access the Freedmen’s Aid Society annual reports, that is considered a reliable source and would be helpful. We also need to be mindful of any original research (WP:OR, WP:SYNTH) before making changes to WP. PigeonChickenFish (talk) 21:51, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

I will find it. here is another link:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiug.30112103601305&seq=26

(Jacob Tome school yearbook 1904-1905 with faculty bios, including Bates) Flab99 (talk) 14:27, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

Freedmen's Aid Society and Claflin University

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiug.30112070960593&seq=264&q1=robert+charles+bates Flab99 (talk) 14:32, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

Hi Flab99, I was able to read through the new citations and use the Claflin University yearbook source (with the Wilson's book, and Bates' obituary) like you had said to tie together the first half and second half of his career. I updated the Wikipedia article based on this, and added 7 new citations. I also made mention of the conflicted sources and the Wilson's book issue(s) because it seems notable given the scale of the previously missing information. I would hate for another editor to encounter this issue, and Wilson's own book makes mention of sourcing issues. PigeonChickenFish (talk) 20:49, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

Really appreciate the work you did to reflect the new research into Bates' life. I think it is much more accurate and should enable future editors to advance the article. Flab99 (talk) 14:19, 22 May 2025 (UTC)