Talk:Ramdasia

Source published by Guru Nanak Foundation

Another source showing that Ramdasia are Sikh Chamars Perspectives on Sikh Studies by Jagjit Singh (1985, published by Guru Nanak Foundation, Near J.N.U and Qutab Hotal New Delhi 110 067) http://www.globalsikhstudies.net/pdf/per-sikh-studies.pdf on Page 75 the author writes that "The Ramdasia's or the Sikh Chamars occupt a much higher position than the Hindu Chamars". On page 77 the author writes that "By changing their name to Ramdasias, the Chamar Sikhs could alter positon in the Sikh case hierarchy, becoming Sikhs and refusing to marry or interdine with Chamar Hindus. TimesGerman (talk) 00:47, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

I've just moved TimesGerman's post above into a new section, for convenience. Hope you do not mind.

Who or what is the Guru Nanak Foundation? (I've heard of it but have no idea what its purpose may be etc) Do we know anything about the author? - Sitush (talk) 00:54, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

the author Jagjit Singh biography can be found here: http://www.globalsikhstudies.net/abtauthor/Abt_Authors.htm and the main page http://www.globalsikhstudies.net/index.htm. The Guru Nanak Foundation is a thinktank related to Sikhism. They publish Sikh publications and run Sikh schools. As well I think run the globalsikhstudies website. More information about them here:http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/sikhism-faqs/sikhism-faqs-what-do-you-know-of-guru-nanak-foundation-new-delhi TimesGerman (talk) 02:35, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

These are quotes from Ibbetson -Punjab Castes. Ithought we were dismissing 100 year old texts? Jagjit Singh is an excellent writer and his books the Sikh Revolution" and "The Dynamics of the Sikh Revolution" are excellent reading, but, even he admits in his footnotes that these are texts from 100 year old sources. Thanks SH 16:07, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

The quote on page 75 is not attributed to Ibbetson but to I.P Singh. The quote on page 77 is attibuted to Ibbetson, We are dismissing 100 year old texts as a single source but author performs a critical analysis on Ibbetson's book and finds it valid enough to quote in his own book. Also, I am not able to find where the author discusses the '100 year old' sources in his footnotes. As you mentioned above, Jagjit Singh is an excellent author and writer, and he is intelligent enough to believe what he wrote on page 75 and 77 of his book. TimesGerman (talk) 16:44, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

I will not make further edits to the Ramdasia since I am ok with the edits that Sikh-History has made so far. TimesGerman (talk) 16:50, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank Bhaghat Ravidas and Guru Ram das for that :). Thanks SH 16:52, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

New Source on Ramdasia Chamars

Caste in Punjab: Political Marginalization and Cultural Assertion of Scheduled Castes in Punjab Author: Neeru Sharma Publisher: Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi http://www.global.ucsb.edu/punjab/journal/v19_1/2-NeeruSharma19_1.pdf

Please review this source and discuss if it can be used as a valid source/

TimesGerman (talk) 14:40, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Is this sentence relevent to the article?

"He further notes that Julaha social status is higher than that of Chamars and that Julahas do not marry outside of their endogamous group.[6]"

These days intercaste marriage is common among Sikhs and Punjabi's and this sentence contributes nothing towards the article. It is like saying White people's status is higher than Non-White people and they do not marry outside their group.

TimesGerman (talk)

Since

• almost the entire caste system was predicated on endogamy
• you haven't provided a source for your alternate opinion
• the Julaha do seem to have some relevance here generally, given the reinventions typical of sanskritisation and similar social jostlings

Yes, it contributes something. It may not be something that the Chamar community likes but, hey, we do not exist to please them. - Sitush (talk) 16:46, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

What do you think of about the reliability of this source: http://www.global.ucsb.edu/punjab/journal/v19_1/2-NeeruSharma19_1.pdf

Specifically this source mentions the following (Page 30):

The Ad-Dharmis are predominant among Chamars and are mainly leather workers. Chamars (including the Ramdasias and AdDharmis)

and Mazhabhis (including Chuhras and Balmikis) together constitute nearly three-fourths of the total scheduled caste population in ::Punjab. Consisting of 37 scheduled caste sub-groups, these SCs form a heterogeneous category. The Mazhabhis are numerically the ::largest scheduled caste group, having a population of about 2,220,945, constituting 31.6 percent of the total scheduled caste ::population, followed by Chamars who constitute 26.2 percent of the total scheduled caste population with Ad-Dharmis as the largest ::group among them comprising 14.9 percent of the total Chamar population (2001 census).

TimesGerman (talk) 18:34, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

It seems ok to me. A peer-reviewed journal. I'm gradually homing in on a real mess connected to some of the names that are mentioned there: the relationship between Chamar/Mazhabi/Chuhra/Balmiki etc is not dealt with particularly well in our articles but doubtless we will get there in the end!

By the way, I'd much prefer a bit of prose like that from the journal to a table of populations. I think it makes the same point in a more useful way. - Sitush (talk) 10:23, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I will see what I can take from this research paper and post it here for review before posting on the main page. I will see about removing the table from the Chamar, I am still waiting from the official results from the Census of India for 2011. The Indian goverment has for the first time included caste in the census and this should provide exact figures for each caste and also how they are classifying the different subcastes of each caste. TimesGerman (talk) 13:20, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

I will be adding the followng text to the article. Please let me know if you have any feedback regarding the changes:

The author Neeru Sharma in her book Caste in Punjab: Political Marginalization and Cultural Assertion of Scheduled Castes in Punjab , states that ″The other segment of the dalit Sikhs consisted primarily of the Chamars. The Ad-Dharmis are predominant among Chamars and are mainly leather workers. Chamars (including the Ramdasias and AdDharmis) and Mazhabhis (including Chuhras and Balmikis) together constitute nearly three-fourths of the total scheduled caste population in Punjab". She also states that "The Congress state government under the leadership of Giani Zail Singh introduced a classification among the scheduled castes for jobs reserved under the quota system. The concessions were granted to the four major Sikh scheduled castes - Ramdassias, Kabirpanthis, Mazhabhis and Sikligars." TimesGerman (talk) 14:07, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

References

OBC etc lists as sources

It isn't usually a good idea to use government lists of SC/STs, OBCs etc as sources. They are primary documents and are known to be ambiguous. It is also known that completely unrelated communities exist in India which nonetheless share the same name. - Sitush (talk) 11:54, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Ramdasia caste is sub caste of chamar community . On government websites its claerly mentioned ghat julahas and ramdasia are diffrrent caste.

http://welfarepunjab.gov.in/Static/Sccastes.html

http://haryanascbc.gov.in/list-of-scheduled-castes Dev Mahey (talk) 09:05, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

But I've already explained that such sites are not usually ok to use. - Sitush (talk) 09:20, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=-waANxsEciMC&pg=PA63&dq=ramdasia&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjbx__7m_3aAhVFmZQKHf6PC9M4FBDoAQguMAI#v=onepage&q=ramdasia&f=false Dev Mahey (talk) 09:06, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

That is a useless link here. Who wrote the book? When? What do you think we should be using it for? - Sitush (talk) 09:18, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

I notice that you had previously tried to add a POV fork - see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ravidassia/Ramdassia Sikh (Chamar). You need to familiarise yourself with WP:NPOV because at present you are not only using poor sources but are removing statements with valid sources. In the event that you find decent sources for your opinion (and you really should not be searching for things to support your own opinion), that doesn't mean we remove existing content. Instead, we would show both opinions. - Sitush (talk) 09:24, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Ramdasia Sikh

Ramdasia sikh are weavers by occupation and different from ravidasia in term of occupation when we search ramdasia sikh wikipedia shows ramdasia is a term used general for sikhs who are chamars which is totally wrong i hardly request to the user who can edit the protected page kindly change ramdasia sikh term is used for sikhs who are julahas (weavers) 2404:7C80:64:F7C7:F416:6706:F296:3DA0 (talk) 16:53, 7 December 2024 (UTC)