Talk:Quentin Crisp

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Gender Identity and pronouns

The citation 'Crisp, Quentin and Ward, Phillip (2017). The Last Word: An Autobiography. MB Books LLC. pp. 15-16' appears to state, with some archaic language which should be contextualized within the time it was written ("man trapped in woman's body"), that Crisp identified as a closeted trans woman who could not a afford sex change or had the social awareness to properly put their gender identity into words. The quote even states Crisp was not a gay man, and rather ironically, that many would find their gender identity confusing once people knew the truth of it. This seems to heavily imply that Crisp was a closeted trans woman, and if not that, definitely not a man. It feels quite insensitive to use he/him pronouns with the 2017 biography in consideration, as although Crisp never explicitly came out as a trans woman, there is primary source evidence Crisp wasn't a man. The reality is Crisp is deceased, and trying to definitively confirm their gender is near impossible. To keep the article objective and respectful, I personally think gender neutral pronouns would be appropriate, and the subsection "Gender Identity" be further expanded to explain the historical context of Crisp's gender identity as well as modern understandings of that context. SadSapphic55 (talk) 22:35, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable. Go for it. Snokalok (talk) 01:28, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

Full agree. As far as I'm concerned, go in and change it Pallasproserpina (talk) 01:33, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

I think this proposal is in very good faith, however I disagree with using gender neutral pronouns. We must only refer to people by the pronouns/gender that we have sourcing for. Based on sources, Crisp was either a transgender woman or a cisgender man. We have no sourcing that says Crisp ever used they/them pronouns or identified as nonbinary, so I don't think we should change the pronouns and descriptors to being gender neutral. As difficult as it is based on the information we have, we need to decide between he/him or she/her. GraziePrego (talk) 08:44, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

Crisp only ever referred to themself as an "effeminate homosexual" in print and in person (I met him a few times). They never came out as trans, so she/her pronouns would be unacceptable. This leaves us with the decision to use he/him or gender neutral pronouns. I think we should stick with he/him, anything else borders on original research. Graham Beards (talk) 09:01, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

Within the citation of the biography I provided, Crisp stated they are not a gay man but rather "a woman trapped in a man's body", who lived as a gay man due to an inability to process their gender identity, and expressed remorse over not being able to afford sex reassignment surgery earlier in life. As a note this biography was made when they were 90 years old, so obviously they would've selectively used he/him pronouns up until their death. SadSapphic55 (talk) 09:13, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

That book begins with the sentence "What kind of man gets to write three autobiographies". I don't agree we can posthumously re-gender Crisp and use pronouns they never did. Graham Beards (talk) 11:07, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

hence the use of gender-neutral pronouns. we can't be sure how Crisp would have identified today, but we can do our best to be respectful towards someone who in their own words felt like "a woman", at least to some extent. Pallasproserpina (talk) 11:20, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

I agree with gender neutral pronouns as a good compromise. I see there is some edit waring taking place regarding female pronouns which needs attention. Graham Beards (talk) 11:45, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

Quote from the article: "At the age of 90 Crisp said in [her] book The Last Word that [s]he had come to the conclusion that [s]he was transgender." WP:GENDERID clearly states that the project should use the most recently expressed identity. Combine the quote above with the fact that she "felt like a woman in a man's body" and we have our answer — IмSтevan ^talk 11:56, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

I agree, which is exactly why we cannot use gender neutral pronouns, as Crisp never used those. GraziePrego (talk) 12:22, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

Agreed. Using they/them for a trans woman who hasn't explicitly said she's ok with it is degendering and has no place on Wikipedia. Amberkitten (talk) 17:25, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

I've fully protected the article for two days. Please discuss, not edit war. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:58, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

Its clearly stated in the article that she identified as a transgender woman, she/her would be most appropriate. ThundorLord (talk) 12:05, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

I agree with addressing Crisp as a woman. I do get the concerns of just suddenly updating a historical figure's gender identity may confuse readers, but I think it's important to discuss her gender identity as a part of her history. Perhaps a citation note that reads "Crisp came out as transgender at the age of 90, this article uses she/her for consistency" Or further adding a small section in her summary that describes the situtation, e.g. "Crisp lived publicly as gay man for the majority of her life." Visleave (talk) 21:16, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

+1 for this. Feels like a better compromise than just using gender neutral pronouns. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 21:20, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

This is nutty. He was a man. In extreme old age he may have said something to the contrary, but it is wrong to deny his existence as a gay man in the public eye. Wainuiomartian (talk) 06:48, 25 February 2026 (UTC)

I believe the previous statements on Crisp's autobiography make it clear where we should stand on this. Per WP:GENDERID, we use the name and gendered words (e.g. pronouns, man/woman/person) that reflect the person's most recent expressed self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources. The "most recent expressed self-identification" in this case would be the autobiography, so it should be the source of gender identity, and we should use feminine pronouns. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 13:31, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

Serious question, for those that know more about this than I do: how many historical figures of this period or of this general disposition would have said something like "The only thing in my life I have wanted and didn't get was to be a woman" while not making any active claim to being a woman, even when afforded the opportunity? It seems to me that Crisp's article suggests that Crisp would have liked to have been a woman, not that Crisp saw themself as one necessarily. I would not want for us to make too strong a claim based on the kind of often unclear language that makes this discussion so complex, especially when dealing with something even 25 years ago. In any case, whatever pronouns are decided on can surely be explained in the little footnote thingy - to me though it feels like a stretch to equate a once-expressed and somewhat unclear desire to have been a woman with being one when it doesn't sound like Crisp themselves believes that it makes them one. If it said "I am a woman" it would be a different story Toffeenix (talk) 13:38, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

"Crisp would have liked to have been a woman, not that Crisp saw themself as one necessarily" but in her autobiography she claims to be transgender. Is the argument you're making here that he was a man but trans but still a man? — IмSтevan ^talk 13:56, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

I just want to ensure that we are sure that what the autobiography does is state that Crisp is transgender. I'm only going off the quote on the page, but the way that this is written - "The only thing in my life I have wanted and didn't get was to be a woman" - to me implies that Crisp feels that wanting to be a woman and being a woman are not one and the same. I would have thought had Crisp believed it was possible to be a woman by declaring oneself a woman then the piece would have done that more explicitly! So in short - if we are in agreement that the autobiography does demonstrate that Crisp sees themself as a woman, then I have no problem with the pronouns on the article reflecting that - but it feels to me there is a distinction here that might not exist so much now. Again, if we think it would be really, really unusual for someone to say that without being transgender, then that would be convincing enough. Toffeenix (talk) 14:08, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

Hold the fort. "At the age of ninety, it has finally been explained to me that I am not really homosexual, I’m transgender. I now accept that." seems pretty clear. Proceed Toffeenix (talk) 14:14, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

I reverted the pronoun change because there were no new sources and no discussion here but that doesn't mean I'm completely against changing it. I think this is quite finely balanced. So there are two legitimate ways to look at this. Either Crisp wanted to transition but never did and hence we should use he/him while acknowledging the situation, or Crisp's declaration can be taken as indicating a private transition that was never announced publicly. Off Wikipedia those are both 100% legitimate ways to see it but on Wikipedia I think the sources have to take precedence. On the one hand we have Crisp expressing clear regret for not transitioning but what we don't have is the sort of things we normally look for, like an explicit declaration of a new name and pronouns. We also don't seem to have Reliable Sources using she/her, even after that autobiography.

Currently the article has mostly he/him with a little bit of they/them. I understand why they/them appeals as a compromise or as a way to acknowledge ambiguity but I don't think we can justify using they/them without sources to support that. We also have to be consistent, so I think we have to get rid of the they/them. I suspect that we will end up back at he/him, and I understand why that doesn't feel right to a lot of people, but we can't impose anything retrospectively. If the narrative here really is one of somebody who wanted to to transition but who never did then let's tell that story how it really was. It doesn't help Crisp for us to recon a happy ending to this. DanielRigal (talk) 17:54, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

I disagree with the statement that wanting to transition but never doing so means that masculine pronouns should be used. A desire to transition indicates being transgender, and we should respect that desire and identity regardless of progress towards transition.

I understand that an explicit declaration of a name/pronouns is ideal for use as a basis for decisions like this, but Crisp is dead, and no declaration was made. Using feminine pronouns for the article is most in line with MOS:GENDERID given the information in the biography and its recency. I do not know of any preference by Crisp that contradicts this.

It should also be understood that a formal declaration of identity is no small action/decision. There is a very tangible pressure from society at large to crush and suppress trans-feminine identity. No one in this talk page, unless they have analyzed their own relationship to this discrimination, is immune to similarly exerting this pressure. This bias should be accounted for.

I feel this topic is pretty simply resolved by, again, the implications and instructions by MOS:GENDERID and Template:MOS-TW. Aceynk (talk) 18:14, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

WP:GENDERID tells us to focus on what the person themselves stated over what secondary sources state (contrary to what you stated), and her autobiography is provided as evidence — IмSтevan ^talk 18:18, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

This argument really rubs me the wrong way, because it not only goes against GENDERID as stated by myself and others, but doesn't really make any logical sense either. If someone was born male, and decided that they were transgender later in life, would that not warrant referring to that person as a woman? Otherwise, you're saying that they are transgender, but we shouldn't refer to them as such outside of using the term transgender because they "didn't transition" — so we're back at calling a transgender person by pronouns that would not fit them and essentially denying that they are transgender. It's all very paradoxical and doesn't add up. I also don't really think that the latter part of that is really a good reason if any at all to not call someone what they'd prefer to be called, but that's an argument outside the scope of this discussion and also not really for Wikipedia. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 18:35, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

+1 Amberkitten (talk) 21:55, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

Hi I'd just like to say that trans women don't have to medically transition to use she/her pronouns, especially in cases where they identify as a trans woman, have used she/her pronouns for themselves, and desired to medically transition all their life but couldn't afford it. As for her/him pronouns, Crisp has very publicly stated they aren't a man, there could be an argument made that Crisp was a gender non conforming woman who used he/him pronouns, which many women do, but Crisp used he/him pronouns because it was put on them since birth and by society, something they very heavily condemned in their 2017 biography, "I went through life as though I was a boy in the outer world, but in my head I went on as though I were a woman". Using he/him pronouns seems to have been a defensive persona rather than a sincerely internalized thing, and they acknowledged that had they have been able to transition they would've used she/her pronouns, Crisp even states it is a misrepresentation of both gay men and herself to call her a gay man. Also she explicitly uses she/her pronouns after saying that:

"By accident then, I have become a sort of national hero, or worse (because I now realize it misrepresents me as much as how I managed to misrepresent them) a gay national hero. In reality, I was only ever a hopeless case. If I had tried to disguise myself as a real person, everyone would have said, Who does he think, oh, I beg your pardon, who does she think she is?” I never did it and that gave way to the image that I have, the legend, if you will."

Reading through the biography in full, it paints a very strong picture that Crisp was a transgender woman who didn't have the words to describe her identity, and so she pretended to be an effeminate man while internally viewing herself as a woman up until up late 80s where she was privately a transgender woman with her friends, but possesses a lot of remorse for not being able to transition sooner: "I either lived in the dream world in which I was a woman or else I lived awkwardly in the outside world where I was inadequate. The only difference is that now I live my whole life unified by the fact that I can live in the outer world the way I live in my head. I couldn’t always do that and it’s a freedom I now cherish."

As for using he/him pronouns to express the fact Crisp was closeted for most of her life, this just seems unnecessary, you can quite easily convey the fact that she spent most of her life disguised as a man and regretted not transitioning without misgendering her, as many other Wikipedia articles with similar cases Such as Leelah Alcorn have shown. SadSapphic55 (talk) 18:50, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

The idea that Quentin Crisp was ever closeted is unsupportable. He was the most "out and proud" homosexual in the British Isles from the 1920s onwards. I defy you to find anywhere in his ouevre, both written and in documentaries and tv appearances, Crisp stating he wished he could have afforded to transition. I have read and watched nearly all of them and cannot remember such a statement. ~2025-34772-19 (talk) 06:58, 19 November 2025 (UTC)

This is discussion that was prior to an RfC about this exact topic. You can see it down below if you have any concerns about Crisp's identity. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 07:45, 19 November 2025 (UTC)

Quentin Crisp used he and him I think it is disrespectful to change how he called himself when he was alive to fit with your beliefs! He is not alive to say otherwise and never changed his male name. Changing your gender pronouns is an obsession of mainly the younger American generation and should not be inflicted on others because you ‘think’ you are entitled to know better & they might like it! He was a different generation and happy with his name and how he addressed himself! At the very least it should be changed to they but never she! LadyVG (talk) 15:54, 23 June 2026 (UTC)

Comment: Am I crazy for failing to see the reason for this discussion? Template:MOS-TW is right there on top of the talk page. ScottishFinnishRadish I believe that during the discussion, as per the template and Wikipedia's guidelines, the article must be reverted back to referring to Quentin using female pronouns, and not be kept locked with male pronouns in place — IмSтevan ^talk 14:01, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

What do you mean by "reverted back"? It has used male pronouns for donkey's years. Graham Beards (talk) 14:30, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

My bad, I just assumed it used female pronouns because of said template — IмSтevan ^talk 15:13, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

The earlier consensus version was male pronouns, and it has been discussed extensively. Right now it is protected with gender neutral pronouns to allow for this discussion to hash out the good faith arguments and establish the current consensus without edit warring. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:42, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

It is hardly 'protected with gender neutral pronouns'. The initial three paragraphs use they/them/theirs, sure, but the rest of the article seems to mostly, if not entirely, use he/him/his.

Further, if I were to add to the discussion, I would say it is very clear what the final state of the article should be. "The only thing in my life I have wanted and didn't get was to be a woman. It will be my life's biggest regret" is about as clear as things can be, in my eyes. Also, I agree that this discussion is hardly necessary. Refer back to Template:MOS-TW and MOS:GENDERID. The article should use feminine pronouns. Aceynk (talk) 17:26, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

I agree, the existence of this discussion is very surprising. MOS:GENDERID states pretty clearly:

Refer to any person whose gender might be questioned with the name and gendered words (e.g. pronouns, man/woman/person) that reflect the person's most recent expressed self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources.

Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale, see ArbCom decision. Therefore, it doesn't matter if there was an "earlier consensus" that contravened GENDERID.

Anyone who has an issue with the policy is welcome to use the appropriate channels to discuss and propose any potential changes. But unless and until GENDERID gets overturned, this article should use she/her pronouns, as it prescribes. Amberkitten (talk) 17:22, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

No. Wishing to have been trans is not the same as being trans. Crisp never asked to be referred to by she/her pronouns. Crisp, like many other people would probably have been trans if they had been born 50 years later when it became an option, but sadly they weren't. Crisp is dead and has been for a quarter of a century. We can't base our edits on what Crisp would have wanted, even if we were sure, which we are not. Graham Beards (talk) 19:24, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

Genuine question, then. How do you interpret "At the age of ninety, it has finally been explained to me that I am not really homosexual, I’m transgender. I now accept that." And on what basis do you have to say Wishing to have been trans is not the same as being trans? Being transgender is not pathological, as came to consensus recently here, so what other requirements are there for "being trans"? SmittenGalaxy | talk! 19:30, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

I think wishing to or actually transitioning. Crisp never did. Graham Beards (talk) 19:33, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

Crisp was beyond wishing, directly stating I [am] transgender. I now accept that. Furthermore, transitioning (which I assume here to mean medically) isn't an accepted requirement anywhere I know of to call yourself transgender. Maybe "socially" transitioning would be better, but even then there are people who cannot even do that due to societal circumstances, and I'd say it's fairly accepted that we would still consider them transgender, because they themselves would say so. Crisp has directly stated it, albeit in a posthumous autobiography, but I don't see how that discounts anything written/said. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 19:41, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

Transitioning is not just medical: it is living a life in a chosen gender other than the one assigned at birth. Crisp did not live his life as a woman, he lived it as (wonderful) gay man. Graham Beards (talk) 19:57, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

And the autobiography clearly states Crisp realized towards the end that it was not homosexuality, but being transgender. We'll just have to agree to disagree here. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 20:10, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

Luckily WP:GENDERID does not require us to confirm that somebody (medically nor socially) transitioned — IмSтevan ^talk 04:42, 3 July 2025 (UTC)

That's an essay. Do you mean MOS:GENDERID? Graham Beards (talk) 04:59, 3 July 2025 (UTC)

My bad, haven't slept for 36h — IмSтevan ^talk 05:20, 3 July 2025 (UTC)

Hi, this is simply not true. Within the 2017 biography Crisp says "I am transgender", says she isn't a man, finds comfort that she's finally able to present as the woman she internally views herself as because of social progress, and refers to herself with she/her pronouns when speaking about medically transitioning earlier in life had she been able to afford sex reassignment surgery. MOS:GenderID doesn't make any rulings about how far someone has to be within their transitioning, or hold long they were closeted, just the most recent identity, which in Crisp's case is a transgender woman. SadSapphic55 (talk) 19:36, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

What is the full quotation? Crisp also says in the book, "I know I am not physically a woman" and goes on to say "I never came out as transgender or gay because I was never in". I think it is safe to say that I am the only one in this discussion who knew Quentin. There seems to me too much speculation and not enough reliance on reliable sources. I think even the book in question is not entirely reliable. Quentin was notorious for invention. It speaks volumes to read the Foreword to the book, which Quentin must have approved, where it says, "What kind of man gets to write three autobiographies". Graham Beards (talk) 19:48, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

"I know I am not physically a woman" reads to me as dejected, and is not an uncommon sentiment among new trans women who have internalized the discrimination of the world. It would be good for the discussion to remain in good faith, and I'd like to remind that Transmisogynistic biases are common and should not be acceptable for discussions like this.

Again, Crisp had stated an acceptance of a transgender identity. That is not disputed or rejected by Crisp to my knowledge, and alone should be enough to decide this. Crisp accepted that she was a transgender woman, even as far along as she had come in life. I do not see how an outside opinion on supposed requirements for being 'fully transgender' is at all relevant given the instructions of, again, the Manual of Style and WP policy. Aceynk (talk) 21:00, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

Again, this is speculation ("reads to me"?). We need reliable sources on which to base a decision. And please be careful not to imply that I am acting in bad faith and that I have a transmisogynistic bias - I am not and I do not. Graham Beards (talk) 21:30, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

We have Crisp herself saying so. Under WP:SELFSOURCE I don't see how it could be unreliable; it's not self-serving nor an exceptional claim, it's not about a third party, it's directly about the subject, we have no reason to doubt the authenticity of it, and the article is not primarily based on this source. Additionally, MOS:GENDERID does read even if it does not match what is most common in sources. By my reading, the autobiography should take precedent over what other reliable sources say about Crisp's gender and identity. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 21:48, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

The issue of pronouns is based primarily on this source, and the book was ghost written by Philip Ward. Whenever I see phrases such as "by my reading" I know we are in danger of original research. Graham Beards (talk) 22:04, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

By my reading refers to my interpretation of GENDERID, not Crisp's work. Although I will admit I can't imagine an interpretation or reading that wouldn't come to the conclusion that Crisp was not transgender, for what it's worth. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 22:29, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

The most recent expressed self-identification is transgender. GENDERID doesn't impose any arbitrary requirements on how much does the subject need to transition, as you seem to suggest. Amberkitten (talk) 21:49, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

I didn't suggest that. Graham Beards (talk) 22:05, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

In that case, whether Crisp "wished to have been trans" or "was trans" is irrelevant to the question which pronouns should be used in the article, since we both agree it's not a GENDERID requirement. Amberkitten (talk) 22:11, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

I did not say I agree with you. Graham Beards (talk) 22:14, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

Can you explain how you disagree? Towards the end of consensus for the article's sake it might help to focus on the application of Wikipedia policy here, and to me it seems very clear that policy and style guides would point to using feminine pronouns for Crisp, regardless of the distinction you make here. Aceynk (talk) 23:03, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

Without a reliable source, policy and style guides do not point to using feminine pronouns for Crisp. The source, the only source, is a book ghost written by Philip Ward, which was published eighteen years after Crisp died. This is not a reliable source on which to base the claim that Crisp was trans. Graham Beards (talk) 05:10, 3 July 2025 (UTC)

So you think that GENDERID does have some arbitrary requirements after all? Thought you didn't imply that. Amberkitten (talk) 23:06, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

Let's examine the determination that Crisp's "most recent expressed self-identification is transgender" more closely.

Two sentences in one of three autobiographies are being given a great deal of weight. It should be noted that this autobiography was the one not written directly by him, and it was only published 17 years after he died. In any case, those sentences are, "At the age of ninety, it has finally been explained to me that I am not really homosexual, I’m transgender. I now accept that." A subtlety is that Crisp isn't saying he is a trans woman, he's saying he accepts in some general sense a particular explanation for years of gender issues. The section as a whole is far more ambiguous than these two isolated sentences might suggest. In that section he refers to himself with male pronouns and as "homosexual" repeatedly, only once using a female pronoun in an oblique, hypothetical way: "If I had tried to disguise myself as a real person, everyone would have said, 'Who does he think, oh, I beg your pardon, who does she think she is?' I never did it and that gave way to the image that I have, the legend, if you will." The "image" here is of an effeminate homosexual man.

Crisp repeatedly describes some sort of internal yearning to be a woman while saying he never actually was one. For instance, he says, "The only thing in my life I have wanted and didn’t get was to be a woman" (emphasis added). Clearly Crisp never transitioned and never used female pronouns, which he certainly could have used since his entire life and persona were about being himself and not conforming. For whatever reason, even at the end, he simply did not do so. The foreward to that same autobiography uses male pronouns unambiguously, as does all other text I can find except the single hypothetical quoted above.

Concluding the gender discussion, he says, "If you are reading this and are gay, think of me as one of your own even though you now know the truth. If it’s confusing for you, think how confusing it has been for me these past ninety years." What "the truth" actually means is left unclear, given the conflicted and arguably contradictory text preceeding it. But the real point is that Crisp had ample opportunity to be a trans woman (particularly in terms of pronouns) and did not avail himself of it. It certainly seems likely that in a slightly different world or timeline Crisp would have become a trans woman, but that is not the one we live in. Consequently "she/her" is just not appropriate.

The "compromise" of "they/them" pronouns also does not make sense here. Crisp never expressed any interest whatsoever in being non-binary. In the end, I have used masculine pronouns above because that's what Crisp's most recent expressed preference was, as in the foreward and essentially all other text.

It certainly makes sense to have a brief subsection on gender identity discussing this issue, as the article currently does. It's more or less fine as-is, though I would edit it a bit. I'd add the above two sentences, explicitly note the unusual posthumous nature of the source, include the hypothetical quote, emphasize the bit about wanting to be a woman and not getting it, and note that masculine pronouns are used throughout the source including in the foreward. 2600:1700:2EC0:EF00:747B:4CE0:5415:B174 (talk) 11:49, 3 July 2025 (UTC)

"If I had tried to disguise myself as a real person, everyone would have said, 'Who does he think, oh, I beg your pardon, who does she think she is?' I never did it and that gave way to the image that I have, the legend, if you will." is literally further conversation that she didn't transition because she thought society wouldn't accept her. She literally says that being a woman would be the real her — IмSтevan ^talk 12:54, 3 July 2025 (UTC)

I agree fully with the IP. This issue has already been discussed in depth a few years ago here and pretty much the same conclusion was reached. We have just one not particularly reliable source that itself is inconsistent. This not about what editors think Quentin would have wanted, but what we can back up by reliable sources. Graham Beards (talk) 13:21, 3 July 2025 (UTC)

How exactly is an autobiography dictated directly to the subject's personal assistant and friend by the subject not a reliable source wrt the subject's gender identity? @echo off /t /c 14:17, 3 July 2025 (UTC)

We don't know the full circumstances in which the tape recordings were made and the book is inconsistent in that it uses more he/him pronouns than she/her pronouns throughout. This makes it an unreliable source for the issue discussed. Graham Beards (talk) 16:17, 3 July 2025 (UTC)

It also means that you're dabbing in original research by concluding by yourself that you don't know the circumstances of the recording and writing of the book, which you could apply to any source ever written. — IмSтevan ^talk 16:23, 3 July 2025 (UTC)

No. That's not the point. The book was written after Quentin died and published twenty years after his death. Quentin never read the book, which is inconsistent in its use of pronouns (and nouns come to that). Please stick to the issue at hand and try not get to personal. I am not dabbling in anything. Graham Beards (talk) 16:42, 3 July 2025 (UTC)

It sounds like you're implying there is a concern that Ward misrepresented Crisp's words when transcribing or editing the autobiography, but if that's the case, I imagine it would have come up in the several years that Ward spent transcribing Crisp's dictation for articles. @echo off /t /c 18:31, 3 July 2025 (UTC)

No, I am not. As I have said several times, the book is inconsistent and is not a reliable source on which to base a change to she/her pronouns. We should go with the neutral second person they/their or just use "Crisp". Graham Beards (talk) 20:03, 3 July 2025 (UTC)

Why censor Sting's original comments where he refers to Crisp with male pronouns? They were deleted and replaced with female pronouns in brackets. Seems to be rewriting the past. This is why Wikipedia has no credibility in academia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ~2026-19348-5 (talk) 10:16, 14 March 2026 (UTC)

---

Please, do not open new requests regarding the subject's gender identity. Rather, participate in the discussion above.

Protected edit request on 2 July 2025

Change all instances of "he" pronouns to she. Crisp is transgender. 97.89.118.45 (talk) 12:21, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

There is a discussion in progress above, please do not start new discussions on the exact same topic. GraziePrego (talk) 12:29, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 2 July 2025

Quentin Crisp is a woman. She was a woman trapped in a man’s body, and the least that can be done for her is using she/her pronouns. Every they and he should be replaced with she, every them and him replaced with her, every their and his replaced with hers. 184.19.5.140 (talk) 12:23, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

There is a discussion in progress above, please do not start new discussions on the exact same topic. GraziePrego (talk) 12:29, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

References

RFC - Pronoun use

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

There is consensus to use she/her pronouns in the article. The relevant guideline in this discussion, the Manual of Style guideline regarding gender identity, states: "Refer to any person whose gender might be questioned with the name and gendered words (e.g. pronouns, man/woman/person) that reflect the person's most recent expressed self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources." The "predominant number of responsible [editors]" were persuaded that the "most recent expressed self-identification" of Crisp is a trans woman, as she stated in her posthumous autobiography. Thus, we should use she/her pronouns because they "reflect" the identity of a trans woman. Those editors also rejected the contentions that Crisp's statements in the autobiography with regard to self-identification were equivocal and that Ward continues to refer to Crisp using he/him pronouns, noting that the latter argument contradicts MOS:GENDERID. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:47, 7 August 2025 (UTC)

---

Which pronouns should be used in the article when referring to Crisp?

1. He/Him
2. She/Her
3. They/Them

ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:59, 3 July 2025 (UTC)

Survey - Pronoun use

• ♀ She/her, as per Quentin's autobiography, which aligns with MOS:GENDERID, which is a must-follow — IмSтevan ^talk 14:40, 3 July 2025 (UTC)
• He/Him But as I have said in the discussion, I think they/them is a working compromise given the inadequacies of the source in question. We could also reduce the use of pronouns by simply using Quentin's name more frequently. This would satisfy WP:NPOV in my view. Graham Beards (talk) 16:49, 3 July 2025 (UTC) PS. I note that Philip Ward, the ghost writer of the source and who has maintained Quentin's website since his death, still uses "his" when referring to Crisp. He writes, "...yet many people around the world are still inspired by his life and legend. They want to know more about him and to read and see things related to his life, his writings and philosophy. Many want to know what others are writing and doing in his honor and in celebration of his life and history. (My italics). Graham Beards (talk) 17:23, 6 July 2025 (UTC)
• He/Him See The Last Word by Quentin Crisp — Thom Cuell Crisp "Note regarding gendering: Although Crisp identifies as a trans woman in The Last Word, he also continues to refer to himself as a homosexual man, in line with the way he has lived his life, and does not specify any preference for an alternate pronoun. For that reason, I have continued to use the male pronoun in this review." Lukewarmbeer (talk) 19:02, 3 July 2025 (UTC)

  This is an anonymous(?) book review in a Wordpress blog. Certainly not a reliable source, but is its claim that Crisp self-refers as a man in the book even true? The excerpt provided below is written in first-person and only uses male pronouns where Crisp quotes other people. Dan Leonard (talk • contribs) 21:58, 18 July 2025 (UTC)

• She/her as per both my and others' arguments in the above discussion. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 23:24, 3 July 2025 (UTC)
• He/Him per RS. A single inconsistent and contradictory source that doesn't even use female pronouns is not enough to justify changing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Molikog (talk • contribs) 02:38, 3 July 2025 (UTC) sockpuppet
• She/Her per MOS:GENDERID; but if that cannot be agreed upon, vastly prefer they/them over he/him. Using he/him for someone who self-identified in this way is not acceptable under policy or common decency. LittleLazyLass (Talk | Contributions) 04:02, 4 July 2025 (UTC)
• Tentatively He/HimI think this is an exceptionally difficult edge case, but for me He/Him just clinches it as being more appropriate. We have to go by reliable sources and it's just the case that we do not have any reliable sourcing that uses she/her for Crisp. Crisp refers to himself using he/him, not she/her. As a side note, they/them is a well intentioned- but totally unacceptable solution here. Crisp was either a man or a woman. Crisp unequivocally was not non-binary, nor ever used they/them pronouns. We absolutely cannot falsely compromise and assign an entirely different 3rd gender option to Crisp just because we can't decide between man or woman. Either we go with he/him or she/her. He/Him, for me, is the option that is more backed up by sourcing and sticks closer to policy. GraziePrego (talk) 04:36, 4 July 2025 (UTC) Changing to She/Her. I have just read the extended quote from Crisp's biography: "I don't actually see myself as a man though, of course, I know I'm not physically a woman", as well as saying that she explicitly identified as transgender and was a woman in her head. That's more than enough to be a most recently expressed gender. She/Her is the appropriate solution here. GraziePrego (talk) 04:46, 4 July 2025 (UTC)
• She/Her, as it has been argued above. The excerpts from the autobiography show Crisp accepting a transgender identity. This choice best follows MOS:GENDERID. Aceynk (talk) 06:21, 4 July 2025 (UTC)
• Sher/her; while I do think it's somewhat of an edge case, the quote indicates a self-conception as a transgender woman (definitively not as a man) and therefore she/her is most appropriate. Dysalatornis (talk) 06:50, 4 July 2025 (UTC)
• She/her, per MOS:GENDERID; as others have noted, the first chapter very clearly demonstrates Crisp's self-identification as a trans woman. I do not believe that the concern over the autobiography's reliability as a source on the matter is legitimate. @echo off /t /c 15:59, 4 July 2025 (UTC)

  Clarity, is the concern that an autobiography in general is unreliable, in which case it is not a reasonable concern given the rationale for the MOS:GENDERID's adjustment to using the subject's own words as evidence for gender related information in the article such as their pronouns. However if the claim is that this specific autobiography is not a reliable source for the information which is being taken from it, that is a noteworthy concern as it is the only source being presented for our editorial determination of Crisp's last self-identification. Antisymmetricnoise (talk) 10:31, 14 July 2025 (UTC)

  If I understand correctly, the book in question was published 18 years after Crisp died, was based on the verbal remarks of a 90-year-old, is only one of three autobiographical books from Crisp, apparently does not have much in it that relates to this question, and apparently uses he/him consistently in its last chapter (per Graham Beards below). To me, that doesn't seem like enough to consider definitive. Some people continue to use (or have their friends use) pronouns that don't seem to match their gender (perhaps especially people who are retired performers or otherwise have had an established public persona). Also, Wikipedia is supposed to lag behind independent sources, not lead the way. This principle should apply especially for a long-posthumous "rebranding". —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 10:55, 14 July 2025 (UTC)

• WP:SNOWCLOSE She/Her per MOS:GENDERID: Refer to any person whose gender might be questioned with the name and gendered words (e.g. pronouns, man/woman/person) that reflect the person's most recent expressed self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources. Do not use gendered noun forms (e.g. mailman, waitress) that do not match the most recent self-identification.. Really straightforward. Crisp's last writing was to identify as a trans woman and disidentify as a gay man.
  • Golikoms !vote flatly ignores that bolded bit - the pronouns RS use are not what we go by
  • Lukewarmbeer is arguing the pronouns a book reviewer chose matter - once again see bolded bit. But also, the reviewer is incorrect - in the autobiography Crisp repeatedly restates that calling her a gay man is incorrect:
    • At the age of ninety, it has finally been explained to me that I am not really homosexual, I’m transgender. I now accept that. ... I no longer see myself as homosexual, though it is a word I have used to describe myself and which others have understandably used to describe me. I don’t actually see myself as a man though, of course, I know I’m not physically a woman.
    • worse (because I now realize its misrepresents me as much as how I managed to misrepresent them) a gay national hero.
    • having labeled myself homosexual and having been labeled as such by the wider world, I have effectively lived a ‘gay’ life for most of my years. Consequently, I can relate to gay men because I have more or less been one for so long in spite of my actual fate being that of a woman trapped in a man’s body. I refer to myself as homosexual without thinking because of how I have lived my life. If you are reading this and are gay, think of me as one of your own even though you now know the truth.

  There's no other way this will close and dragging it out serves nobody while making Wikipedia look silly. I have access to the book itself, but if people need the chapter it's here. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 18:08, 5 July 2025 (UTC)

• I'd like to say she/her but I still worry about the sourcing. For Wikipedia to adopt she/her for such a famous person, when other sources haven't done so, might be hard to defend. Definitely not they/them. I know that using they/them would be intended as a gender neutral default but readers are more likely to misconstrue it as meaning non-binary. Also we don't have any sources that use that. (I think this probably counts as a neutral !vote.) --DanielRigal (talk) 10:39, 6 July 2025 (UTC)
• Obvious she/her, per MOS:GENDERID Snokalok (talk) 23:32, 6 July 2025 (UTC)
• Leaning toward they/them. If I understand correctly, Crisp never clearly expressed a non-male pronoun preference, and a lot hinges on a short excerpt in a posthumous publication. I think it would be presumptuous of us to choose "she/her" on their behalf after-the-fact. I recall a similar instance of a guitar playing performer who expressed a female identity late in life but who also continued to be consistently referred to as "he/him" by close friends who were aware and affirming. (I wish I remembered who that was, and also who was the foreign diplomat in Asia who had edited a secret journal publication while remaining firmly closeted throughout their life, and also who was the famous person who died just after [on] a boat cruise and reportedly revealed their gender preference privately to someone who did not know them just before committing suicide.) Information that only becomes available after death is inherently difficult. This is one of those difficult borderline cases, and I would lean toward trying to be neutral on the question by using "they/them". —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:40, 9 July 2025 (UTC)

  FWIW, for the boat cruise famous person, see Talk:Daniel Küblböck. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 12:49, 14 July 2025 (UTC)

• She/Her or Neutral voice This is a deeply borderline case. I feel the need to affirm in the deepest sense while we have a form of source precedence in MOS:GENDERID that gives a well reasoned special dispensation for the articles' subject individual to to take precedence as a source for their own article for the purposes of gender self-identification, this does not mean that sources and their reliability are not at the core of how information is added to and processed on Wikipedia. Any statement to the end of "we don't follow sources for MOS:GENDERID" is a disturbing misinterpretation. If the final biography represents a strongly reliable source for last self-identification She/Her is appropriate. The fact that it is the only source only deepens the need for reliability as per the universal standards of sourcing information. If the source is not reliable, and if the historical account in which changes in the individual's gender identity become more difficult to recount at length, then a gender neutral article voice is safe (not they/them, the removal of all pronouns and the use of Crisp's surname as the main point of reference). This is an editorial undertaking of some strain and given the short length She/Her is appropriate if it's weight is born by the source. Antisymmetricnoise (talk) 10:25, 14 July 2025 (UTC)
• He/Him, Quentin never used female or non-binary pronouns during his entire lifetime. Doing so posthumously would be misatributing. And my interpretation is Quentin would've transitioned if the technology was available, but it wasn't... so he didn't, he lived his entire life as a gay male.--Ortizesp (talk) 16:58, 15 July 2025 (UTC)
• He/Him, He even mentions in direct quotes that he never got to become a woman so I would say keep it as is.^🥑GUACPOCALYPSE^🥑 17:33, 15 July 2025 (UTC)
• She/her: the requirement some editors here have for Crisp to have "used" pronouns doesn't seem to track with the concept of gender identification. English speakers don't use their own gender in first-person speech, so it feels almost unfalsifiable to demand the existence of such an example. Additionally, the promotion of pronoun self-identification is a very recent cultural development, far newer than Crisp's 1999 death or even the 2017 autobiography (our own article on preferred gender pronouns was only started in 2019). What we do have is a clearly-expressed belief that Crisp felt like a woman and used the word "transgender" to describe it. That's all we should need, especially for someone who died long before they could change the pronoun setting in their Instagram profile. Dan Leonard (talk • contribs) 21:52, 18 July 2025 (UTC)
• She/her: per MOS:GENDERID, Crisp's "most recent expressed self-identification" is that of a woman. fifteen thousand two hundred twenty four (talk) 01:26, 19 July 2025 (UTC)
• She/her, based on the excerpts I found in this source. There were times when Crisp's comments confounded me a little, yet I think the intent was fairly clear: "My daydream as a child was of growing up to be a woman...Had I been born a woman, none of my life would have happened & I could have been happy...I am not really homosexual, I’m transgender. I now accept that...I don’t actually see myself as a man...I either lived in the dream world in which I was a woman or else I lived awkwardly in the outside world where I was inadequate...I went through life as though I was a boy in the outer world, but in my head I went on as though I were a woman...The only thing in my life I have wanted & didn’t get was to be a woman. It will be my life’s biggest regret...my actual fate being that of a woman trapped in a man’s body." Hammelsmith (talk) 00:54, 22 July 2025 (UTC)
• He/Him Agree with Ortizesp's arguments, so I won't repeat. Some1 (talk) 02:18, 22 July 2025 (UTC)
• She/her or no pronouns. It seems that Crisp lived life as a man until the very end of her life, when she came out as trans in her autobiography. So she never used she/her pronouns, but she made it clear that was her desire. GENDERID says to use their most recent self-identification. An alternative to this is to use no pronouns, as was done in James Barry's article (at least until the recent consensus to use he/him). I used to think using no pronouns would make an article read awkwardly, but in Barry's article it was extremely well-done, so it's definitely possible. I would still prefer she/her, though, per GENDERID. 🏳️‍🌈JohnLaurens333 (need something?) 21:50, 22 July 2025 (UTC)
• He/Him: As per comments above by Ortizesp and Graham Beards. I can see a case though for "She/her", whereas the case for "They" seems weaker in my view. Kind Tennis Fan (talk) 23:15, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

• She/her per MOS:GENDERID. This is the clearest case for the application of MOS:GENDERID. --FaviFake (talk) 19:44, 31 July 2025 (UTC)

Discussion - Pronoun use

• Please keep threaded discussion in this section rather than the survey section. This has been discussed extensively in the past and in the section above with no firm consensus either way, so I'm opening this RFC. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:59, 3 July 2025 (UTC)
• I've gone ahead and notified both WikiProject LGBTQ+ and WikiProject Biography/Arts and entertainment about this RfC. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 04:41, 4 July 2025 (UTC)
• It is possible to write biographies without using any pronouns. See James Barry (surgeon), we even have a category for these articles, see Category:Articles tagged for avoiding gendered pronoun usage. It might be a viable option to consider this approach. I think even if we reach a consensus, which seems unlikely at this stage, this issue will come up again, and again. Graham Beards (talk) 18:00, 5 July 2025 (UTC)
• @Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist: "The only thing in my life I have wanted and didn’t get was to be a woman." Lukewarmbeer (talk) 10:05, 6 July 2025 (UTC)

  That's an impressively selective quotation: The only thing in my life I have wanted and didn’t get was to be a woman. It will be my life’s biggest regret. If the operation had been available and cheap when I was young, say when I was twenty-five or twenty-six, I would have jumped at the chance. My life would have been much simpler as a result. I would have told nobody. ... Having said that, and ignoring the biological impossibility for a moment, I wouldn’t have wanted to be a woman with children. I would have accepted children if they somehow came into my life, but the truth is I don’t really like children. I am amused when people say to me, “But you were a child once.” I was, but I wasn’t the kind of child that made you like children. Now, for the rest of this book you will have to forgive me. Having labeled myself homosexual and having been labeled as such by the wider world ...

  • It immediately precedes wishing she got bottom surgery
  • Followed by a paragraph about how she would have wanted to be a woman but not birth children even if she could
  • Followed by the paragraph where she says that calling her a gay man is inaccurate.

  In this chapter she identifies as trans and talks about regretting not medically/socially transitioning. "But she didn't medically/socially transition" is not some kind of gotcha because MOS:GID only cares about identity, not how much you've transitioned. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 18:36, 6 July 2025 (UTC)

  Thanks. I thought it was an impressive selection myself.

  It shows, in Crisps own words, that not only wasn't he a woman but also that he didn't consider himself to be a woman.

  We can speculate as to what his view might have been had he had surgery but we don't need to because he didn't.

  I have to compliment him (among many admirable characteristics) on his own neutral point of view. Given the difficult life he led, the obstacles he had to overcome and the dreams he had, he maintained a self awareness and grasp of reality that we could all learn from. Lukewarmbeer (talk) 20:34, 6 July 2025 (UTC)

  in Crisps own words, that not only wasn't he a woman but also that he didn't consider himself to be a woman.

  • She said I don’t actually see myself as a man.
  • I’m transgender. I now accept that. ... I no longer see myself as homosexual
  • my actual fate being that of a woman trapped in a man’s body

  Please note, steal is an impressively selective quotation of one of the ten commandments. The argument that one of the ten commandments is to steal based on that is an impressively selective argument. Just like how you've taken a chapter where she repeatedly says "man" is inaccurate while "transgender" / "woman trapped in a man's body" is accurate to try and argue the opposite.

  In Crisp's own words, she wasn't a man. I'm unsure if you didn't read the chapter or are just ignoring the parts that disagree. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 01:11, 7 July 2025 (UTC)

  I will say it's strange to admit you've intentionally selected a sentence out of context from a wider passage that directly refutes the argument you're trying to make. If you want to say that Crisp was not transgender you'll have to do a little better than cherry-picking individual phrases from entire paragraphs when the rest of the autobiography disagrees with you. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 04:39, 7 July 2025 (UTC)

  Can we find any example of Crisp using She / Her? If we can then that would settle it. If not I'd say we leave as biologically defined. BUT as the question has been raised, we will have to try and discern the thinking of the subject. That's what I am trying to do. For me that sentence sums up his thinking. Lukewarmbeer (talk) 08:49, 7 July 2025 (UTC)

  No we can't find examples of Crisp using she/her because Crisp never did. With regard to the "rest of the autobiography disagreeing" it doesn't. Apart from the passage in question, there is nothing else in the book on Crisp's gender identity. Also, see my note above about the use of his/him still being used on Crisp's website, which is maintained by Ward and on which the source under discussion is advertised. Graham Beards (talk) 09:37, 7 July 2025 (UTC)

• @DanielRigal::Just want to note there is precedent - See Gloria Hemingway / the RM request to Gloria. It ruled that MOS:GID overruled COMMONNAME for trans people and supported posthumous renames despite most sources published after her death misgendering/deadnaming her, with Hemingway dying 2 years after Crisp. The Atlantic wrote about it at the time. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 18:41, 6 July 2025 (UTC)
• Preceding 2 bullets moved from vote section per request Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 01:55, 7 July 2025 (UTC)
• Setting personal feelings aside, when editing WP, the only thing that can (and should) be allowed is sourcing: reliable sources - to back the claim; and when a claim is made that defines a subject's entire person by way of pronouns, there must be multiple sources. Both sides could argue their interpretation of the very few quotes by Crisp; but what it comes down to are the sources - which there are not many, and in some cases: none at all. Breaking down any quote that was written more than a quarter of a century ago by a subject that did not themselves use transgender pronouns is welcome only to interpretation; and those who are for or against can only cherry pick and interpret those words to defend their argument. What we have now, regarding pronoun use, (article content) is this: "At the age of 90 Crisp said in his book The Last Word that he had come to the conclusion that he was transgender" - a quote that does not mention the term "transgender" but alludes to it with the following: "in spite of my actual fate being that of a woman trapped in a man's body" and "The only thing in my life I have wanted and didn't get was to be a woman ... I would have jumped at the chance (operation)." This shows a desire to become a woman. However, nowhere in any quote does Crisp refer to himself via pronouns. We cannot assume from quotes unless the subject specifically says that they go by the pronouns "she/her" or "they/them". Here you have a subject that wrote: "I refer to myself as homosexual without thinking because of how I have lived my life." In 2025, at WP, without further reliable sources to back the claim, no editor can say that Crisp specifically wanted to be called by a certain pronoun. Crisp was just learning about "transgender" when he died, having been explained to at age 90: "At the age of ninety, it has finally been explained to me that I am not really homosexual, I’m transgender. I now accept that. ... I no longer see myself as homosexual, though it is a word I have used to describe myself and which others have understandably used to describe me. I don’t actually see myself as a man though, of course, I know I’m not physically a woman." This - without a doubt - supports that Crisp defined himself as transgender at age 90; but not Crisp's pronouns. For someone who: "having labeled myself homosexual and having been labeled as such by the wider world, I have effectively lived a ‘gay’ life for most of my years" and "I refer to myself as homosexual without thinking because of how I have lived my life" and "I refer to myself as homosexual without thinking because of how I have lived my life"; no one knows without an RS by the subject themselves, what they would have called themselves had they lived during the time of pronoun change and acceptance. I cannot vote either way because there is just not enough evidence by way of RS that supports the claim that Crisp wanted to be referred to by she/her or they/them. It would simply be a guess about another person's life by way of a few quotes that are interpreted personally. Crisp lived a life as a homosexual gay man, and was remembered at the time of his death as such (obituaries state: "he", "him", "his", "Gentleman", etc. Even when this article was created in 2002, Crisp was he/him. The words he wrote were all still there. What is happening now, after the fact, is being decided for Crisp; not by Crisp from his own words, when it comes to gender pronouns. Who knows, had Crisp lived longer - may have changed not only his pronouns but his identity (name) as well; but there is no way of knowing. That's my 2 cents. Maineartists (talk) 20:27, 9 July 2025 (UTC)

  We cannot assume from quotes unless the subject specifically says that they go by the pronouns "she/her" or "they/them".

  • That's not true. MOS:GID says to use the name and gendered words (e.g. pronouns, man/woman/person) that reflect the person's most recent expressed self-identification. People don't identify as a pronoun.
  • By this standard, if somebody came out as a trans woman/man, we could change the article name but not the pronouns because they didn't specifically announce their pronouns. It would mean almost every famous trans person who died pre-2000 would be misgendered by default because they didn't specifically announce their pronouns.

  Of the pronouns we have:

  • "She/Her" - Reflects her latest self-identification (transgender, a woman trapped in a man’s body) and follows MOS:GID
  • "They/Them" - Ambiguous, reflects uncertainty, kinda complies with MOS:GID
  • "He/Him" - Actively ignores her latest self-identification (above) AND self-disidentification (*:I don’t actually see myself as a man. I no longer see myself as homosexual) Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 20:46, 9 July 2025 (UTC)

Clarification, it is impossible for any editor in 2025 to know for a fact that Crisp (who died in 1999) would have used "she/her" or "they/them" or any other pronoun that may arise in the upcoming years simply by referring to quotes that reveals acceptance of becoming transgender. No one is arguing the transgender issue; but what pronouns Crisp would have used. Being "trapped in a man's body" does not immediately section one into "she/her". From what you have written, it is clear how you interpret Crisp's writing. I simply cannot cast a vote based on personal interpretation on what someone might have wanted others to call them. That's all. To address MOS:GID, these guidelines are for BLPs; not deceased subjects. If Crisp had lived today, who knows what new knowledge would have factored into pronoun choice or even self-identification. Then again, think of all the deceased subjects in history that did not have the freedom or knowledge of pronoun use or self-identification. I can think of many that might wish their articles to reflect as such; but that is a very slippery slope. Maineartists (talk) 21:33, 9 July 2025 (UTC)

There's nothing in MOS:GENDERID or MOS:BIO for that matter that specifies it's for living people only. It does say it's for BLPs, but they also cover deceased people as well. Reading GENDERID also says reflect the person's most recent expressed self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources. An autobiography would be self-expression. It seems contradictory to identify someone as transgender but to not use descriptors of such that would match this self-identification/expression. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 21:59, 9 July 2025 (UTC)

No one is arguing that point: "It seems contradictory to identify someone as transgender but to not use descriptors of such that would match this self-identification/expression." What I am trying to say here is: who is to say how a transgendered person - deceased 26 years ago - would have "pronoun"ed themselves. That is a completely personal choice and right. Your statement is entirely personal to you: "to identify someone" - "use descriptors"; the second part "self-identification/expression" is the contradiction. One cannot acknowledge another's self-identification yet choose descriptors for them. Only a person can self-identify and self-express. So who are we to say what Crisp would have used for pronouns? Maineartists (talk) 23:12, 9 July 2025 (UTC)

who is to say how a transgendered person - deceased 26 years ago - would have "pronoun"ed themselves

Per MOS:GID - if we do use gendered pronouns and there's ambiguity, we should use what matches their gender identity even if that's not what RS use.

Who is to say Crisp would prefer "he/him"? Statistically speaking, if you couldn't ask and had to gamble - if you hear about a trans woman, would you assume she's "pronoun"ed herself "she/her" or "he/him"? Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 23:20, 9 July 2025 (UTC)

who is to say how a transgendered person - deceased 26 years ago - would have "pronoun"ed themselves - GENDERID does in fact say any person whose gender might be questioned with the name and gendered words (e.g. pronouns, man/woman/person) directly before the that reflect the person's most recent expressed self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources portion. I don't see a way of interpreting this other than "someone identifies as a transgender woman, therefore we should use feminine pronouns for them". Crisp's gender identification is very much in question here, so we use the most recent expressed self-identification. Which, in this case, would be that Crisp said "I am transgender", so we would refer to Crisp as a woman. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 00:01, 10 July 2025 (UTC)

To clarify, to me your argument that we just can't/don't know which pronouns Crisp would use seems like it should translate into a vote to use "they/them" (grammatically correct for any gender) or make the article genderless (which I think makes articles unwieldy but we do it sometimes). Either of which I could see a good case for under policy. But the article currently uses "he/him", which is just as much as assumption as "she/her", if not more so.

But nowhere is it part of MOS:GID that a person has to specifically announce their pronouns. No one is arguing the transgender issue; but what pronouns Crisp would have used. - What MOS:GID tells us is to use pronouns matching the persons gender identification. If we are unsure which specific pronouns to use, to go by their gender.

Gloria Hemingway was a similar case, dying in 2001 (2 years after Crisp) and having the WP article and most RS deadname/misgender her for years. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 23:13, 9 July 2025 (UTC)

No. That is not the correct translation of what I said. But I understand how easy it is to misconstrue someone else's writing.

"MOS:GID tells us is to use pronouns matching the persons gender identification". I have a friend who transgendered from a woman to a man but still uses "he/him". Does Crisp not reserve that same right? Could Crisp have used "ze/zir" or "xe/xem"? The point is: we don't know. We can only guess or assume.

One article does not dictate how another article should be written at WP.Maineartists (talk) 23:51, 9 July 2025 (UTC)

For the sake of clarity, please do not insert your replies into another person's comment. Make it separate and use the talkquote template if you want to respond in that fashion. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 23:56, 9 July 2025 (UTC)

Just manually fixed it myself. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 14:54, 14 July 2025 (UTC)

We cannot ignore the fact that Crisp's official website, which is administered by the author of the source uses he/him. Nobody knows what Crisp would have preferred had they not died over a quarter of a century ago. Graham Beards (talk) 07:23, 10 July 2025 (UTC)

By my count, the website was registered one week after Crisp died, in November 1999. The Last Word, on the other hand, was published in 2017. The website is created and managed by someone who is not Crisp, and the autobiography was dictated directly by Crisp. I wouldn't call the website the most recent expressed self-identification for the purposes of the article. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 14:58, 10 July 2025 (UTC)

That's not the point at all. The website was created, registered and is run by Philip Ward the author of The Last Word (or rather the ghost writer). If the author of the source, indeed the only source, does not use she/her pronouns I cannot see how Wikipedia can without violating WP:NPOV. Furthermore, MOS:GID is a guideline; it is not policy. And in my view, it fails to be helpful with regard to persons long dead. Graham Beards (talk) 15:19, 10 July 2025 (UTC)

MOS:GID is a guideline; it is not a policy and neither is the entire Manual of Style. We have a few hundred guidelines, and they're all supported by some kind of community consensus. I don't see what that has to do with anything. It's also already been stated that there's precedent for GENDERID to override policy (not guidelines) such as at Gloria Hemmingway, but I would be willing to search and find other examples that someone saying they are transgender warrants referring to them as a woman if that's not enough. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 15:57, 10 July 2025 (UTC)

My point about Ward's not using she/her pronouns remain unanswered. Graham Beards (talk) 16:03, 10 July 2025 (UTC)

I don't feel like retreading ground we've already been on, so I didn't think it necessary to repeat myself or re-explain what MOS:GENDERID says. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 16:05, 10 July 2025 (UTC)

I understand the guideline and I don't need it to be explained or reexplained. My argument is I think the guideline is not helpful in this case owing to the contradictory source. On the other hand WP:NPOV is policy. Graham Beards (talk) 19:39, 10 July 2025 (UTC)

We are discussing Crisp's use of pronouns, not his gender identity. To move to different pronouns we need something authoritative that says he used them. Lukewarmbeer (talk) 08:25, 11 July 2025 (UTC)

BTW the last chapter of the source under discussion uses he/him throughout. Graham Beards (talk) 08:41, 11 July 2025 (UTC)

Wikipedia was founded by Jimmy Wales on 15 January 2001. That does not make it an out of date website; it is maintained. The Last Word was published in 2017, eighteen years after Quentin's death. The Crisp website is of now and not of 1999 and is kept up-to-date by Ward. The book was written by Philip Ward, not Crisp. Graham Beards (talk) 19:48, 10 July 2025 (UTC)

In terms of the official website, could that apply to WP:CONSENSUSCANCHANGE? I also thought that MOS:GENDERID favoured referring to Crisp as she/her because Crisp self-designated as a kind of woman who does not wear woman's clothes or raises children, yet a woman nonetheless. Hammelsmith (talk) 01:09, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

With regard to consensus change, as yet there is no consensus. As to the other point, Wikipedia cannot be the only place in the world that uses female pronouns for Crisp. We follow sources and the only source on which this discussion is based does not use them. Graham Beards (talk) 06:56, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

Well said. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 19:54, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

I keep coming back to this comment in my mind. Wikipedia should not be the only place in the world that refers to Crisp with female pronouns. Wikipedia is supposed to lag behind in recognizing how a subject is discussed in the broad community of independent reliable (non-op-ed, non-advocacy) sources, not blaze an innovative new trail with its own "original research" that draws new conclusions that haven't been reached in other respected publications. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 23:06, 29 July 2025 (UTC)

That isn’t how MOS:GENDERID works though. If someone declares a new gender identification, all previous reliable sourcing will still refer to them with their old gender. Wikipedia explicitly can make the change ahead of reliable sources catching up in that narrow scenario, as long as we do have at least one source to confirm the new gender. In this situation, we have such a source in the autobiography, where Crisp explicitly says she’s transgender. GraziePrego (talk) 23:28, 29 July 2025 (UTC)

There is no agreement on Wikipedia that MOS:GENDERID is the one supreme law of the land that overrides all other considerations in all cases. For that matter, Crisp apparently never clearly expressed a preference for female pronouns, and here we're talking about whether to base the use of female pronouns on the content of a decades-posthumous book that consistently refers to Crisp using male pronouns. I think that's over the edge. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 23:50, 29 July 2025 (UTC)

MOS:GENDERID overrules other rules such asMOS:COMMONNAME, the same applies here when we have someone who has explicitly said in their own words “I am transgender”. That’s a clear black and white indication they’re a different gender. That may have not been respected by posthumous writers from decades ago, but that’s hardly surprising. Crisp said she was transgender and that’s all we need to set the MOS:GENDERID wheels in motion. GraziePrego (talk) 00:28, 30 July 2025 (UTC)

I disagree with the idea that MOS:GENDERID overrules everything, and particularly with the idea that we should let it put us into the position of being the the only place in the world that applies a gendered pronoun to someone – especially someone who never explicitly said they preferred that pronoun. As I mentioned elsewhere, using "they" rather than "he" may be reasonable, since "they" is generic and non-committal, but I don't think we should use "she" for someone who never said they wanted that and was never referred to that way in any reliable sources. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 03:16, 30 July 2025 (UTC)

How is it original research to refer to someone, who is transgender, as that gender? Regardless of what pronouns they would have expressed interest in, Crisp clearly identified as transgender. That should be enough for us, I would think, as is plainly stated by our manual of style. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 03:03, 30 July 2025 (UTC)

Using "they" rather than "he" may be reasonable, but I don't think we should use "she" for someone who never said they wanted that and was never referred to that way in any reliable sources. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 03:16, 30 July 2025 (UTC)

That's still not original research by MOS:GENDERID, nor does it matter that other sources still refer to Crisp as male. Although, I concede I would much rather use gender neutral or no pronouns rather than blatantly misgendering someone after they died because other people still refer to them as male, or worse that there's some belief that they were not transgender for whatever reason. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 10:47, 30 July 2025 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the only source on which this discussion is based an autobiography? Why would an autobiography use third-person pronouns for its subject at all? Dan Leonard (talk • contribs) 19:58, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

In addition, why would the website — which was not created nor maintained by Crisp — take precedence over an autobiography anyway? If we go by GENDERID, which I see no reason to not do so, then the website isn't Crisp's "self-identification". It's what other people use to describe Crisp. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 23:07, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

Good question. It is because the book was ghost written by Philip Ward and published eighteen years after Quentin's death. Both the Foreword and the Afterword use he/him/his pronouns exclusively. Graham Beards (talk) 15:16, 27 July 2025 (UTC)

Good point Lukewarmbeer (talk) 16:15, 27 July 2025 (UTC)

Someone else's foreword to an autobiography isn't autobiographical, by definition. We should be discussing the actual self-identification from within the meat of the book, not the fluff at the beginning or end. Crisp's own words are I'm transgender. That's self-identification, even if the publishers didn't pick up on that in 2017. The publisher can have their own style guide, but we have ours. Dan Leonard (talk • contribs) 22:19, 29 July 2025 (UTC)

We can't ignore the fact that Quentin didn't write the book. Ward ghost wrote it donkey's years after Quentin's death. As the book is said to be based on unpublished tape recordings, this makes the book a secondary source of questionable reliability. As I have said before, Wikipedia cannot be the only place in the world that uses female pronouns for Crisp. Graham Beards (talk) 06:19, 30 July 2025 (UTC)

I feel that's being excessively sceptical about the tape recordings being genuine. What makes you think they're not real, we have no reason to think that? GraziePrego (talk) 06:23, 30 July 2025 (UTC)

I questioned their reliability, I didn't suggest they didn't exist. (Although it would be good to hear them). Graham Beards (talk) 06:31, 30 July 2025 (UTC)

Yes, that’s what I mean by real- why should we doubt their reliability? GraziePrego (talk) 13:40, 30 July 2025 (UTC)

I appreciate what you are saying. Is it possible, then, to quote Crisp's fair self-designation as a woman: "in my head I went on as though I were a woman...The only thing in my life I have wanted & didn’t get was to be a woman. It will be my life’s biggest regret...my actual fate being that of a woman trapped in a man’s body"? Is there some way to honour Crisp's wishes in an encyclopedia? It may be better to not use pronouns at all. Hammelsmith (talk) 17:00, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

That's certainly an option, but I don't think it is Wikipedia's job to honour Quentin's unfulfilled wishes, especially when Quentin's own website doesn't. Graham Beards (talk) 17:18, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

Has anyone given evidence-based reasons for why the introductory section should make use of 'they' pronouns? At what point did Quentin Crisp claim to be gender-neutral? Regardless of on which side of the debate people fall, it seems inappropriate to assign pronouns to someone with which they never claimed or seemingly desired affinity. StrangeBanana (talk) 15:24, 29 July 2025 (UTC)

Yes. It seems simple enough. He didn’t use pronouns like that. Must be a clue there somewhere. Lukewarmbeer (talk) 16:12, 29 July 2025 (UTC)

Where exactly did Crisp use he/him for herself?

He didn’t use pronouns like that - I am excited to learn more about how Crisp singularly redefined how pronouns are used across the English language. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 17:07, 29 July 2025 (UTC)

Personally, I don't think that referring to someone as "they" is saying that the person being referred to is gender-neutral. I think of it as merely a way to refer to someone without assigning a gender. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 16:18, 29 July 2025 (UTC)

Not just you personally, that's standard English. It's a little depressing that some think the gender neutral third person singular automatically means "this person is nonbinary" and not "this person's gender is unknown or irrelevant to the sentence".

@StrangeBanana, Has anyone given evidence-based reasons for why the introductory section should make use of 'they' pronouns?

• As you said Regardless of on which side of the debate people fall, it seems inappropriate to assign pronouns to someone with which they never claimed or seemingly desired affinity

It is a little funny that you would refer to Crisp with they/them to say you're unaware of their identity and therefore shouldn't use they/them. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 17:03, 29 July 2025 (UTC)

I did not, in fact, refer to Crisp as 'they.' I used 'they' as a non-specific, to refer to "someone" - i.e. someone unknown. The fact that we both know who Quentin Crisp is should obviate the need for me to explain how this works, but there it is.

I don't buy your argument that the use of 'they' in the introductory section was merely "standard English." For example, take this sentence from the introduction: "They afterwards became a gay icon due to their flamboyant personality, fashion sense, and wit."

What about that sentence is standard, exactly? No one reading this could honestly believe that the sentence as written is even grammatical, were it not for the obvious fact that it refers to a specific person (Crisp) with a gender-neutral pronoun. Otherwise, it is a sentence that doesn't make any sense in standard English as we know it.

As I'm sure you're aware, it is quite rare for anyone to refer to themselves in the third person with he/she/they pronouns. The fact that we do not find a sentence like "Then Phillip gave him (instead of me) a cup of tea" does not therefore mean that Crisp did not think of himself as a 'him.' Incidentally, it does not mean that he didn't see himself as a 'her,' either. What is so far actually unsubstantiated, in any case, is the gender-neutral 'they' for Quentin Crisp. And, seeing as there appears to be nothing obvious to support the assertion that gender neutrality was Crisp's conception of himself, the burden of proof lies upon the ones assigning such a pronoun to Crisp. StrangeBanana (talk) 20:51, 29 July 2025 (UTC)

Singular they § Use for specific, known people, including non-binary people absolutely is standard English for people of unknown gender. Dan Leonard (talk • contribs) 21:08, 29 July 2025 (UTC)

In this case, we are talking about a person whose gender is in dispute, not whose gender is unknown.

On the one hand, Crisp referred to himself as a gay man and plenty of interviewers, acquaintances, etc., of his used "he/him" in reference to Crisp. On the other hand, a book published by his friend Phillip Ward (on the basis of tape dictations) contains information that suggests Crisp might have felt like "a woman trapped in a man's body." This must be weighed against his reflections on this same topic in earlier interviews, wherein he expressed a desire to live in a feminine manner but accepted that he was a man. How far any of these points should be considered definitive is a matter of debate. What is not a matter for debate is that Quentin Crisp never claimed to be gender-neutral or non-binary.

If we are going to use 'they' in reference to Crisp in the meantime in its strictly grammatical sense, as I perceive you to be arguing, then uses of 'their' following 'they' should be considered spurious, if not altogether facetious. I again provide the sentence above: "They afterwards became a gay icon due to their flamboyant personality, fashion sense, and wit." Nothing about this sentence is standard English with regard to a singular person. It strongly implies a measure of gender neutrality/non-binarism that has not been established. Furthermore, it isn't in line with the pronouns throughout the rest of the article.

Again, it's quite obvious that since the pronouns in dispute with regard to Crisp are either 'he' or 'she,' and since this is an accepted fact, the haphazard use of 'they' actually results in an obfuscation and erasure of identity, rather than a neutral tone. StrangeBanana (talk) 21:44, 29 July 2025 (UTC)

Nothing about this sentence is standard English with regard to a singular person. It strongly implies a measure of gender neutrality/non-binarism that has not been established is an archaic opinion that is not in line with modern style guides (including the MOS, at § Third-person pronouns: Singular they/them/their are appropriate in reference to anyone who uses those, as replacements for neopronouns, and in generic reference to persons of unknown gender). I still support she/her per my comment above, but those promoting use of they argue that Crisp's gender is unknown to us (as a deceased person with a fairly ambiguous statement of gender identification) and so should be referred to accordingly, as if their gender is unknown. Singular they does not imply non-binary gender identification. Dan Leonard (talk • contribs) 22:05, 29 July 2025 (UTC)

You may disagree, but calling my opinion "archaic" is not only a mistaken use of the adjective but also incorrect per your quoted guideline. There is no evidence whatsoever that Crisp was ever referred to as a 'they,' or that Crisp thought of himself as non-binary. Furthermore, you are again missing the distinction between unknown and disputed. Crisp's gender is not unknown, it is simply debated. That style guide is not applicable to this situation.

The singular their in the sentence quoted does, in fact, imply a gender-ambiguous definition. I make no claims as to its implications elsewhere - just in the introductory section.

It is quite obvious that Crisp either personally identified with he/him or she/her pronouns, and not with they/them. The usage, therefore, of they/them for a person whose gender identity we know to have been one or the other constitutes nothing less than an erasure of personal identity.

This is analogous to designating someone dead as 'queer' who was known to have both male and female sexual partners. Using 'queer' rather than 'bisexual' in this instance, simply because we don't know whether that person could have felt pansexual or the like at some point, contributes to bi-erasure and is not true to what we do know of that person's sexual life.

It is not logical to construct an argument on the basis of a lack of knowledge. That is not an opinion, but a fundamental rule of critical reasoning. The fact that we are unsure of Crisp's preference between he/him and she/her does not, in itself, constitute a good argument for the deliberate usage of they/them. It should be dropped from any future article edits. StrangeBanana (talk) 15:16, 30 July 2025 (UTC)

Wikipedia cannot be the only place in the world that uses female pronouns for Crisp. We follow sources and the only source on which this discussion is based does not use them. - Apart from the fact this has absolutely no basis in P&G (MOS:GENDERID:even if it does not match what is most common in sources), it's a plainly false statement. Here are multiple that gender her correctly:

• The Routledge Handbook of Trans Literature
• The Journal of Shakespeare and Appropriation
• The BBC
• Into Magazine (A partner of LGBTQ Nation)

This was a non-exhaustive 5 minute search before work. If you're going to make the extraordinary claim that nobody else has ever properly gendered her, do basic research first to make sure that's true.Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 13:25, 30 July 2025 (UTC)

There are several problems with these as sources in that they are all based on the single posthumous book. "Her posthumous words, (Alexa Alice Joubin)", "a revelation made public in her posthumous memoir The Last Word (2017).(Daniel G. Lauby)". Crisp would go on to identify as transgender and use she/her pronouns in the final years of her life. (Pronger)" The second point is simply not true, Quentin never used she/her pronouns. Lastly Into is a Grindr publication. which is hardly reliable. Graham Beards (talk) 14:35, 30 July 2025 (UTC)

I had a feeling the goalposts would shift from "no sources use she/her" to "so what if they did". Though, once again, what pronouns others use for her has absolutely no bearing on our own policies, which explicitly say to disregard such arguments.

The second point is simply not true, Quentin never used she/her pronouns. - so a RS (the BBC nonetheless) explicitly said which pronouns she used, we have no RS that disagree, and you're saying it's not true based on your unsourced claim to the contrary?

And Into has not been a Grindr publication since 2020, when it was purchased by Q Digital, who also handle LGBTQ Nation. This piece was published 2021, so that criticism is moot. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 15:37, 30 July 2025 (UTC)

In the sequel to The Last Word, And One More Thing (30 December 2018). Crisp is referred to by male pronouns throughout. My argument in a nutshell is there is no reliable source that Quentin said he wanted to be referred to by female pronouns in his life time. It's all posthumous speculation. If a reliable source published before Quentin died can be found that confirms Quentin's pronoun preferences, I will concede, but not until. Graham Beards (talk) 15:58, 30 July 2025 (UTC)

1) What pronouns other people used for Crisp has no bearing on the discussion

2) Your repeated claims a pronoun preference must have been explicitly expressed is simply not a policy and if anything, goes against them. MOS:GENDERID is clear, if we are unsure which pronouns to use, use the one's that match their self-id/gender. Importantly Do not use gendered noun forms (e.g. mailman, waitress) that do not match the most recent self-identification

If you concede that Crisp identified as trans, and, as stated I don’t actually see myself as a man though, then using "he/him" violates 1) the directive to use pronouns matching their identity and 2) the directive not to use pronouns which don't match identity.

Short of an explicit statement from Crisp that she'd prefer he/him pronouns, there's only one way this can close policy wise. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 16:43, 30 July 2025 (UTC)

Let's review what Crisp actually says in the first chapter of The Last Word, shall we?

In the first place, he never claims that he isn't a man. He also never claims to be a woman in reality, only in "my daydream":

"My daydream as a child was of growing up to be a very worldly, very beautiful woman." (p. 13)

"At the age of ninety, it has finally been explained to me that I am not really homosexual, I’m transgender. I now accept that. All my life, I have wanted to be part of society without having to alter my daydream, my own reality."

"I never came ‘out’ as transgender or gay because I was never ‘in’ and I’ve never known anything except the life I have. I either lived in the dream world in which I was a woman or else I lived awkwardly in the outside world where I was inadequate. The only difference is that now I live my whole life unified by the fact that I can live in the outer world the way I live in my head. I couldn’t always do that and it’s a freedom I now cherish. I don’t think I ever consciously questioned my sexuality, my identity, my gender, or my daydream. It folded around me rather like the dream of Norma Desmond in Sunset Boulevard, the last line of which is, “Life that can be cruel, can also be kind.” The dream that meant so much to her finally closed about her. The dream that I am really a woman closed about me entirely. I went through life as though I was a boy in the outer world, but in my head I went on as though I were a woman. This explains why my life has been so strange." (p.14)

It's quite clear from the greater context of that chapter that Crisp drew a distinction between being a man in the real world and a woman in his daydream, analogous to Norma Desmond's illusions of being a star. He explicitly does not and did not question his own gender identity. Indeed, he had to have it "explained to [him]" that he was transgender, even though he personally knew transgender people prior to this, and so was aware of the phenomenon while he identified as a man. His own perception was that he felt like a woman but was actually a man:

"As I have said before, the life I’ve lead[sic] has not been one lived in the real world. It has been one long daydream. I wish I had been born a woman and one attracted to men, as I myself once was. That is my definition of real. It’s the reality I wished for myself." (p. 17)

During the time that he "went on as though [he] were a woman," he gave an interview (CBC 1977) in which he stated:

"Well, I suppose when I was a child, when I lived almost entirely in a dreamworld, I suppose I thought of myself as a woman. But, later on, you realize that you have to live in the real world, and that you are not a woman. You are only in some senses 'effeminate', or 'feminine', and you must learn to make this compromise – to live in a world where, statistically, you are a man, whatever you may think about yourself."

Crisp often repeated himself, in tandem with his principle that stylists must practice consistency. His 1977 interview answer is very much like his thoughts in this chapter, so whence the ambiguity? I think we can safely put some of this down to Phillip's interpretation of the tape transcriptions, and also the fact that Crisp was near death and probably not expressing himself clearly.

What seems obvious is that Crisp's sentiments The Last Word are not so definitive as the selective quotation in the main article might suggest. StrangeBanana (talk) 17:30, 30 July 2025 (UTC)

I should add, too, a quotation from Crisp in another interview given in 1997 (https://crisperanto.org/interviews/kettelhack02.html):

"I believe what my nature inclines me to believe. I believe I was born unfit for the world not because of anything to do with sex, but because of gender. I have always felt like a woman born into a man’s body. Had I the money or the opportunity early in life, I would certainly have had a sex change. Although because that would have made me a sex-change freak instead of the freak I already was, it probably wouldn’t have solved anything really."

It's quite clear that as Crisp's death became more imminent, his attitude towards his inner feelings turned towards a conviction of being "a man in a woman's body," but only to a point. A person who refers to transgender individuals as "sex-change freak[s]" can hardly be considered someone who identifies closely with that designation. Taken in concert with his above quotations, it seems to me that Crisp might have felt himself to be a particularly feminine man, but not exactly a woman - except in so far as he was encouraged to identify as such by external actors ("I now accept that" - i.e. he did not before). StrangeBanana (talk) 20:42, 30 July 2025 (UTC)

MOS:GENDERID requires us only to consider the most recent expression of gender, so I don’t think you can use interviews and writing from years before she died to say that Crisp wasn’t transgender. People change their minds, and the last most recent statement was “I am transgender”. GraziePrego (talk) 23:10, 30 July 2025 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) First, it's not policy, it's a guide, and not a useful one for long dead people. Second, a choice of female pronouns was not really an option in Quentin's lifetime and an explicit statement either way does not exist. I'm coming to the conclusion that it might be best not to use any pronouns at all. I think there are precedents for this. Graham Beards (talk) 17:36, 30 July 2025 (UTC)

I feel like it's a bit dismissive to say (still) that it's not policy, it's a guide about the Wikipedia MOS for biographies. It also doesn't matter if the person is dead or alive, because it doesn't say anything about that. It just says "any person". And I will concede I prefer no pronouns over misgendering someone. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 21:01, 30 July 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

FWIW, for the person I mentioned above who I remembered as "the foreign diplomat in Asia who had edited a secret journal publication while remaining firmly closeted throughout their life", see Talk:Thomas Baty#Requested move 28 September 2021. I still haven't figured out who was "a guitar playing performer who expressed a female identity late in life ...". —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 20:56, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

Pronouns again

Section originally titled: I've just watched the Naked Civil Servant which was based on the life of Quentin Crisp with the full cooperation of Quentin Crisp. In the biography HE clearly states that HE doesn't want to be a woman. That HE is a fully formed man so why the female pronouns?

I've just watched the Naked Civil Servant which was based on the life of Quentin Crisp with the full cooperation of Quentin Crisp. In the biography HE clearly states that HE does NOT want to be a woman. That HE is a fully formed man who just happens to be attracted to other men. HE describes himself as an effeminate homosexual. Not a woman. So why the feminine pronouns? Who has decided this for him? ~2026-4259 (talk) 04:57, 1 January 2026 (UTC)

Read the above discussions on this page for why that change was made. GraziePrego (talk) 05:26, 1 January 2026 (UTC)

The simple answer to this question is that Crisp, in a book published after Crisp died, expressed that a sex change, had it been available, would have been taken. Wikipedia uses the latest known wish/expression of subject of BLPs in this matter, hence Crisp is given female pronouns etc throughout the article, even if as in this case this wish was not made publicly during Crisps lifetime. Walter Ego 11:34, 1 January 2026 (UTC)

WP:NOR - we must follow the sources, not engage in original research and synthesis

"Do not synthesize meaning from multiple sources to state or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources." WP:SYNTH (policy)

"Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources." WP:GENDERID (essay, but we should follow it unless we have some really good reason)

I started looking through the sources and I invite others to join me in the project. But I am not finding merely that the preponderance of reliable sources use he/him pronouns, but so far - all of then do. I wrote a script to help me, and I've checked the work of the script, but it failed for various technical reasons on a number of the sources, so a more complete check is warranted. But there's perhaps a faster approach - can anyone produce even one source in which she/her pronouns are used?

What we seem to have here is an effort to extrapolate from one paragraph in a posthumous book that near the end of his life, he thought that he might have taken advantage of gender change surgery had it been available. That's an interesting and certainly encyclopedic thing to mention. But unless he changed his pronouns late in life (he didn't) and unless reliable sources changed his pronouns (they don't) then policy is clear.

Findings

Pronouns used for Quentin Crisp in cited sources

Source title	Publication / site	Pronouns used for the subject in that source
Peter Tatchell: Quentin Crisp was no gay hero	The Independent (archived via Wayback Machine)	he / him / his
Quentin Crisp interview: Old Spice	The Independent	he / him / his
Crisp: The naked civil servant	BBC News	he / him / his
Quentin Crisp, 90, dies on eve of sell-out British tour	The Guardian	he / him / his
Reviews/Film; Everybody Believed He Had to Be Somebody	The New York Times	he / him / his
Quentin Crisp	Salon	he / him / his
Phillip Ward Talks 'The Last Word' by Quentin Crisp and More (AUDIO)	HuffPost	he / him / his
The Quentin Crisp Gallery: John W. Mills	Crisperanto.org (The Quentin Crisp Archives)	he / him / his
MR. STING ON ENGLISHMAN IN NEW YORK	Crisperanto.org (The Quentin Crisp Archives)	he / him / his
Beaux Arts Ball Royalty list (includes “King Quentin Crisp”)	Beaux Arts Society (archived via Wayback Machine)	(No narrative pronouns; lists title “King”)
Ladies and Gentlemen, Mr. Quentin Crisp	Museum of Arts and Design (MAD)	(No pronouns in the provided page text; uses “Mr. Quentin Crisp”)
Quentin Crisp: Naked Hope	Mark Farrelly (official site)	he / him / his

Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:18, 24 February 2026 (UTC)

Hi Jimmy, interesting to see you here.

The current text of MOS:GENDERID (emphasis mine):

Refer to people whose gender might be questioned using the name and gendered words (man, woman, person) that reflect the person's most recent expressed self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources.

The question of what pronouns the majority of sources uses for a transgender person is simply not relevant. This might seem radical, but it is necessary given the number of cases (less ambiguous than this one) where the majority gets it wrong, and it's a very battle-tested piece of consensus that this is the least ambiguous, most equitable, most correct way Wikipedia can write about gender.

The question is simply whether Crisps's autobiography where she seemingly said she wished she could have lived as a trans woman reliably verifies that she was transgender. The above consensus is that it does. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (talk • stalk) 21:42, 24 February 2026 (UTC)

That's one question, to be sure, but the autobiography does not say that - firstly we misquote the autobiography and the quote is also highly selective. See below for my further comment. It is worth noting as well that the above "consensus" is very weak - and many of the voters appear not to know what the biography (and the foreward) say.

It is worth noting that due respect for the dignity of the subject does not involve changing their pronouns against their wishes. A person could (and in this case did) conclude that they are trangender and choose to keep their pronouns the same. In any event, it is not up to us to decide this, but up to sources. We have taken an extreme outlier position here which is clearly out of step with reliable sources, out of step with closest friends of the subject, and out of step with what the subject actually chose for themselves. I think that's deeply disrepectful and problematic. Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:50, 24 February 2026 (UTC)

It is the question, pending a community revision to the MOS. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (talk • stalk) 22:20, 24 February 2026 (UTC)

To articulate it clearly, did Quentin self-identify as a trans woman? Phrases like

• I don't actually see myself as a man though, of course, I know I'm not physically a woman
• "At the age of ninety, it has finally been explained to me that I am not really homosexual, I’m transgender. I now accept that. All my life, I have wanted to be part of society without having to alter my daydream, my own reality."
• "I never came ‘out’ as transgender or gay because I was never ‘in’ and I’ve never known anything except the life I have. I either lived in the dream world in which I was a woman or else I lived awkwardly in the outside world where I was inadequate.

are much more compelling evidence than idle speculation about what her immortal soul would find embarrassing or problematic.

It is "deeply disrespectful" that the trans woman you find easiest to mentally conjure is one who inexplicably prefers being deadnamed and misgendered, solely for the sake of devil's advocate. I don't know any (non-closeted) trans people like this, do you? Can you imagine that transition (in 20th century Britain, no less) is such a terrifying prospect that you'd carry the daydream to your deathbed? Can you imagine shielding that most shameful part of yourself from even your closest loved ones? If not, you should not claim to speak for the dead. –Roxanne "If they write a Wikipedia article about me after my death, make it sure it says I am a transgender woman" Saunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (talk • stalk) 22:35, 24 February 2026 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I'm not "inexplicably conjuring" anything. I'm saying that what you need to refrain from doing is speculating on his mental state at all. "I think this person must have wanted to be called by she/her pronouns because I can't imagine anything else" is not a valid argument. There are no sources at all to suggest that Quentin Crisp wanted that, and significant sources (literally all of them, including his final posthumous book) in which he was called the pronouns that he was called for his entire life.

I have no objection - none - to writing objectively and neutrally about the facts in evidence, which absolutely do include his very late in life realisations and statements that he was transgender. That is absolutely not the issue.

If anyone is trying to speak for the dead - loudly, and over his own words, it's you. Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:50, 25 February 2026 (UTC)

I don't see how any of your quotations prove what you're asserting? How do you know that Crisp was a trans *woman* specifically? Why couldn't he have been something else under the trans umbrella. Indeed there is literally zero evidence to suggest that he identified as a woman. Zero. W3985abp (talk) 13:55, 25 February 2026 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, no where in their life did Crisp suggest a preference for she/her pronouns.

I think the best options are to use they/them or no pronouns at all. ~2026-10020-95 (talk) 22:17, 24 February 2026 (UTC)

I don't agree that 'they/them' are helpful here. He did not use those pronouns, no sources use those pronouns, and they are to a significant degree indicative of something else entirely. Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:51, 25 February 2026 (UTC)

In an effort to be more helpful here as to why I don't think this is a viable solution, I looked into the Manual of Style and found this: "Singular they/them/their pronouns are appropriate to use in reference to any person who goes by them." Quentin Crisp, and those close to him, and all reliable sources including his own autobiography, obituaries and reviews, all use "he/him". Nothing suggests that Quentin would be "any person who goes by them" - Quentin went by "he/him" to the very end of his life. Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:13, 25 February 2026 (UTC)

To go a bit further, some seem to be persuaded by the quote from the autobiography but there are a few things to note about the quote, as presented in the article at the present time. (I can only presume most of the people who commented hadn't read it all, which is fine, but it is worth clarifying.)

First, we smash together two different quotes from the book as if it is a continuous whole. "Having labeled myself... past ninety years" appears on page 8 while the next section "The only thing... wonderful" appears a couple of pages before, page 6. I don't know who included this quote here, nor when (haven't had time yet to dig through the history, but if someone is interested they probably should) but this kind of hatchet job on a quote isn't good.

Second, what is omitted is actually quite compelling in terms of arguing against the strange thing we have done contrary to sources: "The trouble is, of course, that if you have the operation and you tell everyone, you are in as bad a position as you were before you had it done. Because before you come into the room, people say, “She was really once a man.” Then when you arrive, no one can look anywhere except at your face because they can’t be seen examining your body to see how different it is." One might conclude from this (though it would be synthesis to do so and so we should not - my only point is that it negates the false synthesis that has taken place here) that Crisp could very well find it quite upsetting to suddenly have his pronouns changed after his death, on the basis of no use of those pronouns himself, and (as far as I see) no use in reliable sources.

We have the additional compelling evidence of the foreward to the book, written by Laurence Watts, who worked with Crisp's best friend, Phillip Ward who had recorded interviews with and and helped write the book with Crisp. Ward was Crisp's literary executor and would have selected and approved of the forward. And the foreward definitely uses he/his/him pronouns. Barring compelling evidence otherwise, we need to have a good deal of respect for the choices made by people who were in a position to know.Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:40, 24 February 2026 (UTC)

Your perspective that Wikipedia should use the potentially wrong (and of course, cis) gender for this individual because everybody else does is a reasonable and defensible notion, even if MOS:GENDERID contradicts it. But the reasoning you're using to support your original analysis of Crisp's manhood (which she routinely disavows) is motivated and atrocious. What is the point of complaining about WP:SYNTH if your counterargument is just your own alternative synthesis?

The only admissible evidence in the past RfC (and the second one which we will hurtle toward when you don't get your way) is the most recent sourced statement Crisp has made about what her gender was. Not what other people thought it was, not what we think she might have felt about the prospect of transitioning publicly. Certainly not what we might infer from unrelated anecdotes. Opening the floor to more of that, even from Wikipedia Founder Jimmy Wales, is best-case a waste of contributor's time, worst case garbage-fire of transphobic rhetoric that most RfCs in the WP:GENSEX WP:CTOP tend to become. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (talk • stalk) 23:43, 24 February 2026 (UTC)

MOS:GENDERID supports me very strongly and cautions against what you are trying to do. "Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources." - That is what we need to do. The most up-to-date reliable sources would include both his obituaries and his posthumously published auto-biography "The Last Word: An Autobiography" and reviews of that book. And all of them, 100% of them, including the book itself, use the pronouns "he/him". That you wouldn't do the same or, as you have said, can't imagine that anyone would, is your personal opinion and not a reliable source.

Follow MOS:GENDERID and do not misgender. Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:55, 25 February 2026 (UTC)

I mean as you quote directly from MOS:GENDERID, look at the operative terms here. "most-recent" "self-designation", "reliable", "...even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources." But then you invoke a spray of texts, many of which have contradictory relationships to the operative elements of the guideline that give it it's spirit. This is incoherent and obscuring a lot of the substance of what you are saying again. Reviews, obituaries, etc, are only relevant in so far as they contain accurate evidence of SELF-designation, recency is relevant insofar as it refers to SELF-designation.

So if it comes to the "The Last Word" which is the most recent accounts that can give evidence for a self-designation and also deals with the subject directly, the actual content with regards to gender identity is complex enough that retaining the use of "he/him" pronouns as a proper signifier of identity without a level of analysis of the text that is just not present yet seems like a risk of a seriously ugly simplification. @StrangeBanana above lays out the actual textual positions well but becomes too speculative in applying individual quotes to interpret Quentin's thoughts. At this point though I actually think the level of complexity in how Quentin discusses a relationship with gender identity that is high enough that we may well be getting into original research territory.

I agree fully though that the application of "she/her" pronouns as applied is running into the same issue but worse, there needs to be affirmative evidence that Quentin used "she/her" which is disturbingly missing in the RFC arguments in favour. To the degree that this merits correction. Meanwhile too many arguments in favour of "he/him" ascribe certainty without rigour based on "commonsense" interpretations of fragmentary quotes. The strongest and most individually complete piece evidence is indeed that afterword by Phillip Ward you presented and it is on that basis that She/Her is not appropriate as it has been litigated in the RFC. But I also agree with @Flipandflopped that this is not "clearly wrong" the way you presented it. There is simply too much going on here in terms of very messy gender identification. Autobiographies that seem straightforward can require scholarship in context unfortunately, and this feels more and more like a case of arguments that are being overextended from source. Antisymmetricnoise (talk) 22:35, 20 March 2026 (UTC)

In point of fact, I argued not that Crisp ought to be referred to as either he/him or she/her, but rather that they/them or speculative inferences of gender fluidity, rather than transgender identity, were not sufficiently established - neither in quotations, biographical texts, nor in anecdotal evidence with reference to Crisp. That implication, that Crisp ought be referred to as they/them, is, as far as I can tell, without positive merit. Or, at least, it has yet to be affirmatively established in a rigorous manner. StrangeBanana (talk) 01:09, 21 March 2026 (UTC)

The gold standard for writing an article in which the individual's gender can not be affirmatively determined or their pronouns is to remove all pronouns in favour of the name alone. This can be done elegantly but it IS a substantial writing endeavour when an article was initially written with pronouns. Secondly, they/them is the English language gender neutral singular pronoun and can be used for indeterminate cases. It does not by default imply "non-binarism" as you term it above. It is an entirely standard English language construction. True gender neutral use is the generic for they/them as a singular pronoun, reference to non-binary gender is specific, and a natural modernisation of the language given that it's deeply semantically similar and both meanings are simultaneously compatible. That said, it can cause strain in cases where there is uncertainty and the two could be conflated.

MOS:GENDERID only refers to it's universal use for anyone who self identifies with those pronouns because it's a guideline in dealing in self identification. It does not need to litigate the generic case for any given pronoun.

Your statements "I think we can safely put some of this down to Phillip's interpretation of the tape transcriptions, and also the fact that Crisp was near death and probably not expressing himself clearly.", and "It's quite clear that as Crisp's death became more imminent, his attitude towards his inner feelings turned towards a conviction of being "a man in a woman's body," but only to a point. A person who refers to transgender individuals as "sex-change freak[s]" can hardly be considered someone who identifies closely with that designation. Taken in concert with his above quotations, it seems to me that Crisp might have felt himself to be a particularly feminine man, but not exactly a woman - except in so far as he was encouraged to identify as such by external actors ("I now accept that" - i.e. he did not before)." Are both deeply into speculative territory. Neither of these things are reasonable inferences, assuming that the individuals own words were "lack of clarity" rather than complex feelings. You argue here that Crisp would likely be unlikely to identify closely as transgender, and ironically almost argue something close to non-binary ("...not quite a woman" is not usually a clarifier you add to a feminine man whose gender identity is known to be firmly male). This is why I agree with the relevance and evidence value of quotes you have presented but not with your extension to conclusions. Antisymmetricnoise (talk) 13:53, 21 March 2026 (UTC)

You are missing the point. Whether or not Crisp was a man or a woman is not, as you imply, an indeterminate state. It is a *contested* state. There is a distinct difference between what is undetermined and what is contested. Crisp's gender identity was not undetermined simply because there is speculation as to what it was. The fact that we do not know it doesn't mean that it wasn't determined by that individual, and it doesn't give us good reason to refer to a generic "they" with regard to Crisp.

As for your analysis, I'm not sure that you're applying the word "speculative" in quite the manner you mean. It is reasonable to infer logical conclusions from someone's own quotations. Dismissing them as "complex feelings" is a removal of agency from someone else in favour of your own view. It is a reasonable inference that a person who calls transgender individuals "sex change freaks" is not intending to identify himself with them.

But all that is beside the point. My original reason for contributing to the discussion was because the article in question had used they/them pronouns to refer to Crisp just because it was a matter for debate as to which pronouns Crisp would have preferred to employ. That is clearly not an "indeterminate" case, but one of *third-party* interpretation of another's identity. The fact that you or I disagree about that interpretation does not make that individual's gender undetermined, and it does not give carte blanche to call someone who was clearly either a he or a her a they. StrangeBanana (talk) 22:47, 19 May 2026 (UTC)

In a nutshell, Crisp was clearly and obviously either a he/him or a she/her, not a they/them. Therefore, employing they/them pronouns, in the singular sense, to refer to someone who never went by them is both logically wrong and non-standard. StrangeBanana (talk) 22:54, 19 May 2026 (UTC)

Here's the history of the jumbled quote:

• In March 2024, Opened heart added the "The only thing in my life I have wanted" quote under § Posthumously published works. They reused the reference from the "Having labeled myself" quote, which cited pages 15–16. (Diff.) This was their first edit to the project.
• In April 2024, Opened heart moved "The only thing" quote from § Posthumously published works to § Gender identity, following the "Having" quote, and they removed the identical citation for the "Having" quote. (Diff.)
• In October 2024, Tuckerlieberman made each quote into a block quote and omitted the closing quotation mark of the first paragraph and the opening quotation mark of the second, making them appear to be a single two-paragraph block quote. (Diff.) Given the single citation, I'd guess they didn't realize the two quotes were reversed in order and from different places.

Rebbing 11:34, 25 February 2026 (UTC)

Thanks! That sounds like a very accurate analysis. Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:55, 25 February 2026 (UTC)

I would like as well to introduce more evidence from the autobiography.

Page 15: "Having given up sex at thirty, imagine my surprise when an African-American man tried to pick me up the other day. I’m now ninety. He was a taxi driver who had just brought me back from the airport. When we arrived outside my house he asked me, “Are you a man or a woman?” When I told him, “I’m sorry to disappoint you, but I’m not a woman,” he asked if I would give him a blowjob. I politely informed him, “I’m afraid I’m too old for any of that sort of thing.”"

Here, in an anecdote told by the subject himself, about a recent event (at the time of writing) in which he clearly and publicly says that he is not a woman.

I will keep reading (the book is quite entertaining) and post more evidence if I find any. But so far the autobiography makes it quite clear that whatever his musings as a 90 year old about what choices he might have made when he was younger if surgery had been available, Quentin did not change pronouns from he/him during his lifetime.Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:57, 24 February 2026 (UTC)

I haven't read much more yet but in scanning through the book and searching, I found as well that the book has an afterward by Phillip Ward - Quentin Crisp's best friend and literary executor. "In his case, because we finished the content for this third installment of his autobiography four months before he passed away in July 1999, there is not much missing. Even so, this afterword will fill in what little of Quentin’s story remains untold by him. This is his missing last chapter." This afterward is a gentle and caring story of his last few days and, relevant to our present inquiry, there is no suggestion whatsoever of she/her pronouns. This from a close friend who collaborated closely on this book, and on getting it published. "As per his wishes, Quentin was cremated and his ashes delivered to me by Chip when he returned from England."

I think this makes the case overwhelmingly clear. Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:06, 24 February 2026 (UTC)

Your position isn't unreasonable - it's a complicated and unique case - but this has been thoroughly litigated and the RFC on pronoun use was hardly six months ago. Much has been said about the case for years and I do not think opening up so soon after the people have spoken on it is ideal. LittleLazyLass (Talk | Contributions) 23:08, 24 February 2026 (UTC)

I think it is ideal, actually, to fix Wikipedia when it is clearly wrong. We are currently not following policy here and engaging in a synthesis that's inappropriate. Speaking more broadly, the practice that has been increasing in recent years of doing RfCs and then thinking that we can't change things that are wrong is unfortunate. But WP:BOLD is still extremely important. The real question is what policy says and what the right thing to do is. My case is pretty clear and I've not yet heard any policy-based counterarguments.

@RoxySaunders argues that it's not possible to imagine that Quentin Crisp didn't change pronouns, but an inability of a Wikipedian to imagine something is absolutely not a policy-based argument. The important policy here is that we must follow the sources, we must not engage in synthesis or speculation.

Rather than allow this to continue, we most likely to get more eyes on the issue and question the decision that has been made to date. Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:00, 25 February 2026 (UTC)

I think that "clearly wrong" is a stretch, Jimbo Wales. The policy says using the name and gendered words (man, woman, person) that reflect the person's most recent expressed self-identification. Crisp said "I am not really homosexual, I’m transgender" and "I went through life as though I was a boy in the outer world, but in my head I went on as though I were a woman. This explains why my life has been so strange."

If I self-identify for the first time as a trans woman very shortly before I die, and the world never found out what gendered pronouns, if any, I would continue to use had I lived longer, what pronouns best reflect my expressed self-identification? It is a genuinely unusual situation which has no true answer, because the policy itself is not written in a way which contemplates it. That is far from the article being "clearly wrong". Flip^andFlopped ㋡ 00:33, 10 March 2026 (UTC)

I agree that Jimbo Wale's position does not fully capture some of the nuances but the core of the message here is clear. By all meaningful sources "she/her" is clearly wrong on account of there being NO meaningful evidence anywhere including Crisp's own words that those pronouns were ever self-designated even in the context of an in depth exploration of personal gender identity. Straightforwardly this RFC has chose not change the pronouns for an Quentin Crisp with an argument based entirely on quotes taken out of their broader context in source. The fact that there has been some counterargument that also is hinging on quotes that are too removed from context to be useful does not change how deeply the RFC change relies on original synthesis from the source, and total disregard for the actual words of Quentin and Ward in their collaborative publication of the Last Word, in which all reference is done with "He/him" pronouns.

And the framing you present, where Crisp may "never found out" what pronouns they would have used in a life they never lived, could not be contemplated by policy because it is exactly the kind of purely speculative exercise that is unacceptable for the purposes of assessing self-identification. I also do not think it is reasonable to say that this was the case for Crisp affirmatively. As even this idea is speculative. We have such rich writing from Crisp about their relationship with gender. There should be no need for speculation, the uncertainty here is inherent to the individual and to the primary source. There is plenty to discuss in the article and plenty for suitable scholarship to analyse. Antisymmetricnoise (talk) 16:17, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

Purely in terms of policy I think that the misuse of the opening part of MOS:GENDERID which has seemingly been reworded from "Refer to people whose gender might be questioned using the name and gendered words (man, woman, person) that reflect the person's most recent expressed self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources" to invent a mandate that a person be referred to with the "the pronouns corresponding to their self-identified gender" is particularly galling. As often seems to be the case, the elegance and power of MOS:GENDERID where self-identification is left free to capture all of the wide range of ways that a person can identify across both gender and the language they elect to use, is lost in this interpretation. And that's before the idea is introduced in arguments above that a singular decontextualised gender identity label can provide total guidance and that there is no more need for evidence. This seems to have become a common misreading of this policy. That balance, quality, and analysis of evidence is devalued due to the need for recency and the allowance for the subjects own word to dominate this one area, as well as a loose interpretation of the "despite what is most common in sources" clause. But if anything it is the opposite. Closer scrutiny is required to know the source accurately conveys their sentiments in full. That the concept of recency is being used properly to keep identification up-to-date, not being used to truncate evidence by arbitrary time limits.

We can set aside sources that identify the subject without regard to self-identification in the sourcing for assigning a GENDER:ID in the article, and that is it. But Ward's afterword absolutely has implicit regard for self-identification, it's not complete evidence but it is powerful. Antisymmetricnoise (talk) 16:58, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

This feels like yet another case of just adding one block out of context to counter another. I will nervously add a few more quotes to the discussion and delude myself into believing that maybe they won't be used to synthesise conclusions that are beyond their scope.

Part of what is in question here is what the idea of being a transgender woman even meant to Crisp in terms of which pronouns Crisp would use if self-referring in the third person in the Last Word. A big part of the lack of evidence for the use of she/her pronouns comes from the fact that Crisp's conception of being and living as a woman is discussed in sections which are relatively clear about how Crisp identifies as a trans-woman in retrospective, and has always identified in part as a woman internally, but that the crossover between what Crisp refers to as the "dream" and Crisps living reality is not fully made clear as it may not have been to Crisp.

The full quote previously presented in fragment that I think has the strongest indicators about Crisp's sense of identifying as a woman:

• "I never came ‘out’ as transgender or gay because I was never ‘in’ and I’ve never known anything except the life I have. I either lived in the dream world in which I was a woman or else I lived awkwardly in the outside world where I was inadequate. The only difference is that now I live my whole life unified by the fact that I can live in the outer world the way I live in my head. I couldn’t always do that and it’s a freedom I now cherish."

The second half of this one is the only one that deals in Crisp living as a woman in the present, and it's the part that gives me pause because it's slightly contradictory to a lot of the ways to which Crisp is referred to have lived even late in life. It is resolving in a way that later paragraphs roll back on. As previously quoted:

• "The only thing in my life I have wanted and didn’t get was to be a woman. It will be my life’s biggest regret. If the operation had been available and cheap when I was young, say when I was twenty-five or twenty-six, I would have jumped at the chance. My life would have been much simpler as a result. I would have told nobody. Instead, I would have gone to live in a distant town and run a knitting wool shop and no one would ever have known my secret. I would have joined the real world and it would have been wonderful."

There is ONE quote in Crisps own words in which Crisp self-refers with both He and She pronouns:

• "If I had tried to disguise myself as a real person, everyone would have said, “Who does he think, oh, I beg your pardon, who does she think she is?” I never did it and that gave way to the image that I have, the legend, if you will."

The prior discussion of this quote is perplexing to me, as it seems to ignore the actual use of pronouns in favour of attempting to "resolve" Crisp's gender identity. Here Crisp self-refers with the "She" pronoun entirely in the context about a hypothetical of another life, so much so that Crisp instinctively self-refers with the "He" pronoun first and has to correct for the purposes of making the hypothetical consistent.

In this sense, the only place in which Crisp uses the third person pronoun to self-refer is muddled but this constitutes some degree of evidence that the present tense pronoun here used by Crisp is "He" not "She".

If we are going to continue to engage in all this speculation as to how Crisp "would have wanted to be referred" in retrospect, let's perhaps see how Crisp referred to another transgender woman in a later paragraph. Going on to use "he/him" pronouns for transgender journalist Jan Morris when talking about her surgery:

• Ms. Morris [7], the man who had the operation, [8] once made a wonderful remark. “It was never a question of sex. It was a question of gender.” That’s a wonderful thing to have said. He wanted to be a woman. He didn’t want to have men so much as to no longer be one, and he succeeded.

By language alone the quote fragment retroactively misgenders her rather aggressively in reference to her as "the man who had the operation" and then acknowledges her as a woman as "success of no longer being a man". This is not exactly a set of thoughts about the process of transition that lead me to think that we can derive any evidence that Crisp has a particular interest in retroactive use of "She/her" pronouns from this chapter. The fact that it is hard to even infer this fully from the text is matched by the total lack of direct evidence.

Crisp being a trans woman who continued to identified with "he/him" pronouns should not be dismissed out of hand as a possible and clearly plausible explanation and if this were the case the pronouns in the article must be returned to "he/him". That this is not a common form of reference (self or otherwise) for trans-women only makes it more important that this only be implemented in certainty. I will not promote it directly as the solution for this article on account of the ambiguity.

I hope this illustrates what I have been referring to as "the complexity of the text" at hand in previous comments.

The reason this is difficult as I see it is that all interpretations assigning a pronoun here require a degree of original thinking to fully comply with the strictest interpretation of "self-identification" in MOS:GENDERID which to me is by far the most important part. What happens if there is a potential conflict between the individual's own words in their autobiography and the forewords and afterwords, by the publishing author? To what degree are these elements in conflict? I lean towards understanding this by way of the afterword for reasons laid out by Jimbo Wales above but it's not exactly perfect comfort in lieue of some of the expanded quotes. It's the reason I consistently promote pronoun removal for such cases, and the use of the surname as primary reference. It's not easy. But it is certain. Antisymmetricnoise (talk) 22:26, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

Whelp I am pretty sure I managed to very badly misread that "Who does he/she think..." quote quite badly. It was just a reference to what others would have said? Nothing to see there. Antisymmetricnoise (talk) 01:32, 26 March 2026 (UTC)

I'm a bit late here, but I don't feel any of these articles listed would qualify as "new information" nor should it be changed back. News outlets and articles referring to Crisp with masculine pronouns and terms was gone over extensively, especially with respect to the autobiography where Crisp self-identifies as a woman.

Additionally, WP:GENDERID is an essay, but was not what was extensively referred to in the RfC. I believe that is supposed to be MOS:GENDERID, which is a guideline. WP:NOR has no bearing here; there is no and was no original research done. People can decide to transition or that they had been repressing thoughts and actions of that throughout their life, and the autobiography clearly shows this. Even still, if you disregard that, the wording in it is very clear. Crisp self-identifies as a woman, therefore she is a woman. The RfC discussion last year I felt was very conclusive and thorough, and there's no need to retread ground already gone over because of a personal disagreement and misinterpretation of Wikipedia guidelines. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 00:09, 3 April 2026 (UTC)

This is a very aggressively binary model of gender. Even by the standards of binary trans people the statement "Crisp self-identifies as a woman, therefore she/her." in the full context of all that Crisp wrote above and below the lines is a simplification. I have no dispute with the fact that Crisp identified as transgender. But the questions of why the person closest to Crisp late in life, who actually transcribed the very lines evidencing the statement you are making, and is the only source for any idea that Crisp was trans at all exclusively referred to Crisp with "He/Him" pronouns in the afterword as well as in all posthumous discussion of Crisp. I don't understand how people are side stepping relatively clear evidence that Crisp may have preferred to go by he/him pronouns even after coming out in the autobiography as trans. I don't understand how people are ignoring that after coming out as trans Crisp exclusively self-refers to their past self in the rest of the autobiography in masculine terms.

If you are going to assert that "a trans-women who preferred in life to be referred to by he/him pronouns should be referred to with she/her pronouns because they are a woman" then I think that's a pretty serious issue in your definition of Self-Identification as per MOS:GENDERID. Now whether or not this is actually the case for Crisp is something there could be reasonable argument about, but it must be based on evidence.

Any assertion that Crisp ever self-referred using she/her pronouns must come with evidence or it is original research. The statements to the effect of "Crisp would have wanted to be referred to this way" heavily argued in the RFC are original research.

Proof needs to be provided in this case that Crisp identified using she/her pronouns in a way that would not ordinarily be true for a trans-woman. The failure of the RFC to engage with this and the repeated assertion that Crisp must be identified with pronouns matching a narrow identification made from quotes taken without context is disturbing. Above I discuss how Crisp approaches retroactive gender identification in own voice in the Autobiographies. Nobody is engaging, just repeating arguments that imply that MOS:GENDERID states that women must be she/her. Which is just not true. Antisymmetricnoise (talk) 08:25, 27 April 2026 (UTC)

If you have an issue with the way the RfC went and/or the current state of the article, you're more than welcome to open a discussion about it. Just try not to re-tread what has already been litigated to death above. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 18:44, 27 April 2026 (UTC)

Very clear bias within the article.

Quentin was born a man, was generally outwardly masculine, viewed himself as a man, etc. Simply because he expressed the view privately that he was trans in a single instance does not mean that his pronouns should be changed based on an assumption of what he would've used. The fact that most of the people attempting to push this are also MtF transgender shows a very clearly bias for why they would suggest such a decision and fight so much to keep it. There is not a single logical reason to refer to him as a female in the article outside of the mention of the fact he may have been transgender. There is no indication that he would've used anything but his birth pronouns. Vamlov (talk) 22:49, 24 February 2026 (UTC)

Careful with WP:ASPERSIONS. You're right that just because Quentin "I don't actually see myself as a man" Crisp wrote the words "I'm transgender, I accept that now" one measly time does not mean there is reason to say she ever identified as transgender or viewed herself as anything other than a man. The Earth also looks pretty flat when I walk around outside... –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (talk • stalk) 23:02, 24 February 2026 (UTC)

"I don't actually see myself as a man" There are a number of ways this could read.

Even ignoring how much you're overselling that single quote that still doesn't mean he would've used she at any point in time nor would use it now. Vamlov (talk) 04:23, 25 February 2026 (UTC)

It's also selectively quoting from the autobiography, which is a delightful book worth reading. There is a very clear passage in which Quentin says "I am not a woman" in relaying an anecdote about a cab driver asking and propositioning him.

What is clear: in the book Quentin Crisp does come out as transgender, and keeps using the pronouns he/him. That might be upsetting to @RoxySaunders but Roxy thinking Quentin made the wrong choice is not a valid reason to misgender him now. Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:16, 25 February 2026 (UTC)

absolutely agree. I've been trans for 20 years now, likely much longer than the Roxys of this thread. So I completely understand how Quentin could express the idea that he might be trans, while still retaining masculine pronouns. Young people tend to be unburdened by nuance. The article going so far as to retroactively rewrite a quote from Sting—someone who actually *knew* Quentin!—to hamfist female pronouns in is honestly really distasteful. (Walker Snarling) (talk) 15:11, 24 May 2026 (UTC)

"Bias" towards what, might I ask? Iostn (talk) 00:08, 25 February 2026 (UTC)

I can't answer for @Vamlov but the fact that Wikipedia currently uses she/her pronouns contrary to all sources and the testimony of his posthumously published autobiography which uses "he/him" would definitely count at bias towards changing pronouns in a particular way despite no sources nor the subject of the article doing it. We do have very solid policy in this area, and we now have the new evidence that was not discussed before (in particular, that the quote from the book is garbled, that the picture in the book is substantially more nuanced including a quote from Quentin saying late in life "I am not a woman" in his own words, and that the book itself uses only he/him pronouns and no others. To go against the wishes of the subject of the article, and all reliable sources, including the most recent ones, does not strike me as NPOV, but rather strikes me as... biased. Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:01, 25 February 2026 (UTC)

The consensus to use she/her pronouns has nothing to do with the NPOV policy, unless you are into pushing conspiracy theories/moral panics about ill-defined "gender ideology". Iostn (talk) 00:51, 11 March 2026 (UTC)

In fact, out of curiosity, would using he/him pronouns also constitute "bias"? @Jimbo Wales Iostn (talk) 00:58, 11 March 2026 (UTC)

agreed Wainuiomartian (talk) 04:17, 25 February 2026 (UTC)

All of these arguments were addressed in the RfC, you can read it in one of the thread above. Is there some new information that changes what was discussed in earlier discussions? GraziePrego (talk) 09:55, 25 February 2026 (UTC)

Hi @GraziePregoGrazie, there is significant new information that I have put forward up above. In particular, what was not noted in the previous RfC is that when we look at MOS:GENDERID and see the strong recommendation that "Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources" and then we look for those, we find no evidence of self-designation as "she/her". None. All of the sources, including his posthumously published autobiography, refer to Quentin exclusively as "he/him" - including the afterward essay written by his best friend detailing the last days of his life. Additionally the quote in the article was garbled and also highly selective - the book contains the statement in his own words: "...I am not a woman."

These arguments were not addressed in the RfC, because I believe that many of the participants may not have had access to the source work, and quite rightly accepted in good faith that the words quoted were an accurate presentation of the content of the work. Now that we know differently, I think the result is obviously going to be different, per policy and due respect for the personal choice that Quentin Crisp made in his own life. Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:10, 25 February 2026 (UTC)

To be pedantic, the quote “I am not a woman”’is stated as part of Crisp retelling a story where she said that to someone else. Crisp saying that she accepts she is transgender is however in direct voice from the author, not in quotes within the text of the book. GraziePrego (talk) 20:36, 25 February 2026 (UTC)

I don't understand the distinction that you're making here. Or, to be more precise, I don't see why that distinction is meaningful. Quentin quotes himself in a book he wrote. To me, that's highly compelling evidence of what sorts of things Quentin said.

It's worth noting that the debate here isn't about whether Quentin viewed himself as transgender - he says that explicitly, and we should absolutely quote that. This is about what pronouns he used - which is a different question and one on which, for very good reason, policy here is that we should respect the choice of the individual. For us to say "we don't care which pronouns you used, your closest friend used, we are going to use the pronouns we prefer for you" is exactly what misgendering someone means. Let's not do that. Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:10, 28 February 2026 (UTC)

If I used "he" referring to Crisp, I'd be up before the beak, for misgendering them, so fast my crocs wouldn't touch the floor. - Walter not in the Epstein files Ego 15:15, 28 February 2026 (UTC)

I am struggling to understand what you mean by this. Antisymmetricnoise (talk) 16:18, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

It is a long sad story of misunderstandings and really poor behaviour on my part. You haven't got enough wixperience to be able to understand. Bear in mind that this area of the project (WP:GENSEX) is highly contentious. My own behavioural record means that I am reluctant to edit in this area at all any more, because my views do not accord with consensus. - Walter Who mentioned Pearl Harbour? Ego 18:34, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

@Roxy the dog: Recusing yourself from a topic area, if that is your intention, requires actually doing so. Handwringing that you're walking on eggshells and withholding your controversial opinion for fear of retribution/censorship/accusations of transphobia is not actually better than just saying whatever it is that you think will cause crows to descend and peck out your eyes. I don't think anyone is at risk of getting dragged to AE for what pronouns they use on this talk page. You were sanctioned for your conduct, not for wrongthink.

If your intention is to resume editing sensitively in GENSEX, I'd encourage you to reflect on the differences between statements like I don't personally think Crisp was really a woman and The Wikipedia article about Quentin Crisp should still use he/him pronouns because other sources do and The fact that most of the people attempting to push this are also MtF transgender shows a very clear bias. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (talk • stalk) 20:17, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

Recusing yourself from a topic area, if that is your intention, requires actually doing so. I agree with this but, "The Wikipedia article about Quentin Crisp should still use he/him pronouns because other sources do". This is not the only argument that people are presenting here and it certainly isn't one I see the person you are responding to has put forwards.

The primary argument is that while the vast majority of trans-women retroactively apply their pronouns, there is some serious evidence that Crisp may not have done so or preferred not to do so in the Last Word autobiography. Trans-woman and transgender are not monolithic labels, and the fact that Crisp identified as "transgender" when taken in context of the ideas in the Last Word does not give clear guidance as to pronouns. While this makes Crisp a potential exception to the usual alignment of gendered words (including pronouns) to strict label this is not that unusual in and of itself. This is the reason why trying to close the case of pronouns on the basis that Crisp was a trans-woman is missing the forest for the trees.

Dismissing the afterword to The Last Word as "someone else referring to Crisp" would be an unusual understanding of the closest friend and co-author of the transgender person in question's autobiography. The places where Crisp refer to other trans-women show little care to retroactive application of pronouns even in the immediate context of discussing Crisps own transfemininity. Antisymmetricnoise (talk) 18:55, 26 March 2026 (UTC)

The distinction definitely is meaningful; a transgender woman recounting a story in text from her past may well say that she said to someone at the time "I am not a woman", but that is very distinct to, in text speaking directly to the reader to say that she is transgender. GraziePrego (talk) 02:46, 1 March 2026 (UTC)

I mean you are struggling to differentiate the between the direct authorial voice in a text and them accounting a single past anecdote while also calling on a wider set of texts. This tension makes your argument makes your argument less clear. You are correct that the actual identification both of identity and pronouns in the source is the lynchpin to this argument. But if you are trying to make a claim like "Quentin came out as transgender but continued to use he/him pronouns" you need to make this case unambiguously from the text rather continuing to red herring with the "...I am not a woman" quote out of context. The negative that you are trying to explain, the total lack of self-ID with she/her pronouns is not unambiguous as you have presented it. This is natural to attempting to demonstrate a potentially true absence of proof in a larger volume of writing but it has to actually be resolved. Antisymmetricnoise (talk) 21:54, 20 March 2026 (UTC)

Can we change the section title here? This isn't about "very clear bias". This is about interpretation and use of sources to decide the correct language for the article. Despite the unnecessarily aggressive start, there are good faith arguments on both sides here, which is nice. --DanielRigal (talk) 20:28, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

Perhaps the Wikipedia community can find a way where no pronouns are used? I foresee a dispute that will last for many years. Personally I tend to "he" as Crisp lived as a men, without wanting to spark another debate. What I would add—and which was hardly mentioned, if at all, perhaps because so many people who aren’t familiar with Crisp have since joined the discussion—is that almost everything Crisp said publicly was sometimes serious, but even more often laced with irony, wit for wit's sake and exaggeration. That doesn't mean the statements were a joke or that Crisp didn't feel like a woman, but in Crisp's interviews there is always some sort of stylization and exaggeration involved. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ~2026-47600-24 (talk) 21:34, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

This is a typical solution to this issue that could easily be applied, but the article appears to be deadlocked. While there was consensus on the last RfC since then a lot of new material from the sources has been raised for consideration. A new RfC would be needed at this point. Antisymmetricnoise (talk) 12:44, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

Reference to purchase of henna

"When war was declared I went out and bought two pounds of henna" Q. Crisp. The Naked Civil Servant. 1968. ISBN 978-0-00-654044-1, p. 107 (last sentence of Chapter 14).

So is the statement of five pounds in the article false? or does it refer to a separate instance? or to a sum of separate purchases? MJK749 (talk) 15:13, 21 June 2026 (UTC)

I checked the source as well and five appears to be an error, I've changed it to two in Special:Diff/1360509626. Thank you for pointing it out. fifteen thousand two hundred twenty four (talk) 22:29, 21 June 2026 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 June 2026

“Change she to he or they” “Change her to him or they” LadyVG (talk) 15:59, 23 June 2026 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before posting an edit request. See above sections for reference on previous discussions. LizardJr8 (talk) 18:19, 23 June 2026 (UTC)

@LizardJr8 Never in his life did he refer to himself as a woman so we shouldn't do it posthumously. ~2026-43323-72 (talk) 18:36, 5 August 2026 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 August 2026

Change "Crisp wanted to call her book I Reign in Hell" to "Crisp wanted to call her book My Reign in Hell." Then cite this 1996 interview with Quentin Crisp from "The Independent," since there is currently no citation for the existing claim about the desired title of her book: https://www.the-independent.com/arts-entertainment/how-we-met-5607544.html.

I have not found reliable evidence that Crisp intended "My Reign in Hell" to be a reference to Milton's Paradise Lost. That claim should perhaps be deleted, since it lacks supporting evidence.

I Reign in Hell is in fact the title of a 2024 book by the living author Quentin S. Crisp. Creynold2 (talk) 01:01, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

 Done in Special:Diff/1369615419. fifteen thousand two hundred twenty four (talk) 02:05, 16 August 2026 (UTC)