Talk:Prazon

Disputed inclusion and weight of pre-1948 geography

I disagree with this edit because the inclusion of the Khalidi source in this specific article violated both WP:COATRACK and WP:RELEVANCE

On page 337 of the source in question Khalidi devotes exactly one sentence fragment to Prazon: "There are three Israeli settlements on village lands: Perazon... founded in 1953." A passing mention to the geographical overlap. However this article is about moshav Prazon - a specific agricultural cooperative community founded in 1953 by Jewish immigrants from Kurdistan. It's not an article about the geographical coords it happens to sit on.

WP:COATRACk - The inclusion of this source acts to use this page about a specific Kurdish-Jewish community as a vehicle to host information about a completely different preceding community that the founders of Prazon had absolutely no interaction with. The depopulation of a preceding village is highly relevant to Al-Mazar but has zero causal or historical link to the founding of Prazon itself.

WP:RELEVANCE - Wikipedia articles are about their subjects; They don't serve as an exhaustive geographical history of the dirt. Unless you have a source showing the Kurdish immigrants who founded Prazon interacted with, were influenced by or were connected in any way or had any historical continuity with Al-Maar, this is irrelevant trivia being used to push an unrelated narrative onto this page.

I urge to remove the source from this page to keep the article focused on its actual subject. If inclusion is insisted upon, it should be moved from the lead sentence of the history section. Shoehorning the depopulation of Al-Mazar into the exact same sentence as the Kurdish Jewish immigration violates WP:UNDUE. Khalidi's book simply notes the geoographical overlap, its not a defining primary attribute of the founding of the moshav. By injecting this fragment "on the land of the depopulated Palestinian village" into the founding sentence it appears to use Wikipedia's voice to inappropriately frame the identity of the moshav's founders around a conflict they were not present for nor involved with. Dazzling4 (talk) 23:26, 14 July 2026 (UTC)

The people of Prazon might think it is irrelevant who were there before them, but I doubt the people of Al-Mazar (and their descendants), think the same. And we are writing an encyclopedia as much for them, as for the people of Prazon, cheers, Huldra (talk) 23:33, 14 July 2026 (UTC)

Wikpiedia is not written "for" any specific group of people (nor for any particular group's descendants) nor is it a memorial. Changing an article to serve an emotional appeal or historical grievance of a specific demographic violated WP:SOAPBOX and WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS

The article should be based on neutral policy and article scope. You didn't address the violations I raised and acknowledging the perspective of Al-Mazars descendants does not explain or justify how a geographical footnote from khalidi gets to hijack the lead sentence detailing the founding of this moshav.

Instead of citing personal advocacy, please offer a policy-based rationale for this inclusion. Dazzling4 (talk) 23:53, 14 July 2026 (UTC)

It is simply not true that Al-Mazars history has nothing to do with with Prazon. Al-Mazar had thousand of dunams under cultivation, areas that were taken over by Prazon, Meitav, and Gan Ner. I understand that this is an inconvenient "detail", that doesn't fit in the narrative of "an empty land", but it is supported by WP:RS, and it is clearly WP:DUE, cheers, Huldra (talk) 21:10, 16 July 2026 (UTC)

First of all, please adhere to WP:AGF (Assume Good Faith) and WP:NPA instead of projecting political motives onto me. We are discussing Wikipedia policy and article structure.

Second, the source you are using here does not state that the 1953 Kurdish immigrants "took over" cultivated land, it also doesn't actually claim/establish any causal link between the 1948 depopulation and 1953 arrival of these refugees from Megiddo. Attempting to fuse these two seperate events into one sentence implies a direct historical confrontation/succession/event that your source does not even support.

Since your source only supports a geographical overlap, forcing the 1948 depopulation into the lead sentence about the 1953 founding of the moshav is clearly WP:UNDUE

At a minimum, the geographical history of the land must be separated from the lead detailing the institutional founding of Prazon. Dazzling4 (talk) 00:04, 20 July 2026 (UTC)

So are you telling me that the people of Prazon tilled all the land from "scratch"? Huldra (talk) 23:57, 22 July 2026 (UTC)

What I personally believe/deduce about the agricultural history of this region is entirely irrelevant... and so are your personal assumptions. Wikipedia relies on what reliables sources explicitley state, not what editors like yourself assume happened WP:OR WP:NOTFORUM I'm not here to debate whether or not the founders "tilled the land from scratch" to turn this talk page into a discussion form.

as I've stated the source you presented literally just described a geographic overlap. It says absolutely nothing the 1953 Kurdish immigrants taking over cultivated plots, infrastructure, irrigation, etc. Its clear now that you are fusing two events into a single lead sentence based on your own assumptions that the land must have been "pre-tilled" which is blatant WP:SYNTH.

However, since you brought it up, I've researched for and found some reliable source that describes the state of the land prior to 1953. I will expand the history section to include these sources that provide context about the founders actual experiences without synth of unrelated historical events.

Kenan, Ofra (1993). "הקמת חבל תענך בשנות ה־50" [The Establishment of the Ta'anakh Region in the 1950s]. In Naor, Mordechai (ed.). עמק יזרעאל, 1967-1900 : מקורות, סיכומים, פרשיות נבחרות וחומר עזר [The Jezreel Valley 1900-1967: Sources, Summaries, Selected Episodes and Auxiliary Material] (in Hebrew). Yad Yitzhak Ben-Zvi. p. 178.

כפריים ועירוניים בחבל אחד [Villagers and City Dwellers in One Region] (in Hebrew). p. 27. Retrieved 24 July 2026. Dazzling4 (talk) 19:02, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

Please feel free to add any info sourced in WP:RS and which mentions this place. But of you remove the Khalidi-ref: expect protests, Huldra (talk) 23:24, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

It is completely normal and reasonable for an article on a settlement to mention what was there before. Zero^talk 23:28, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

Incidentally, Perazon has also spread into the former lands of Zir'in, which was closer than El Mazar. The depopulation of those two villages is obviously relevant to the foundation of Prazon. It would be nice to have a fuller story about this, but just the geographic facts is better than nothing. Zero^talk 03:27, 25 July 2026 (UTC)

This week if I have time I'm going to research for more sources describing the extent of the village of Al-Mazar since from what I can find, for example from SWP the village itself is described as being on the summit of Mount Gilboa, at least 5km away from Prazon, Meitav and Avital. Dazzling4 (talk) 01:33, 27 July 2026 (UTC)

You are confusing the location of the village houses with the extent of the village's lands. The boundaries of the village lands were determined during the mandate period based on Ottoman documents and cadastral investigation. You can't determine them from the PEF map, you need the topocasastral maps prepared by the Survey of Palestine. That's where I looked to confirm Khalidi's claim, which is not surprising since they were also Khalidi's main source. One of the first projects of the Survey of Israel was to republish the maps with the village boundaries removed; I'll let you guess why. Zero^talk 12:04, 27 July 2026 (UTC)

Etymology

The whole "Etymology"-section seems like WP:OR to me. Comments? Huldra (talk) 23:26, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

I've added a source for the etymology section. Dazzling4 (talk) 01:19, 27 July 2026 (UTC)