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Talk:Pablo Casals

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Latest comment: 5 months ago by Amakuru in topic Requested move 5 February 2026

Adding "Catalan" to the lede

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Not to open up a can of worms (which has been opened many times before on many articles), but perhaps the fact that Casals is a Catalan should be added to the lede? I think this is a particularly relevant case given Casals' personal beliefs, specifically the speech he gave in front of the literal U.N. General Assembly in which he mentions "my country, Catalonia" and says "I am a Catalan." How about something like:

Pau Casals i Defilló (Catalan: [ˈpaw kəˈzalz i ðəfiˈʎo]; 29 December 1876 – 22 October 1973), also known in English as Pablo Casals, was a Catalan and Puerto Rican cellist, composer, and conductor, born in Spain.

Any thoughts? acomas (talk) 23:27, 22 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

In short, your suggestions appear to align with present consensus. There have been multiple RfC's on this question: in 2018 on the Manual of Style/Biography talk page: Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Biography/2018_archive#RfC_on_use_of_Spanish_regional_identity_in_biography_leads; on the question of Carles Puigdemont being labeled a Catalan politician Talk:Carles_Puigdemont/Archive_5#RFC_on_nationality, and on Ramon Casas Talk:Ramon Casas#Request for Comment: Subject lead label Catalan or Spanish?, and in all cases the consensus was for the "Catalan" label. In addition, the Talk pages for Antoni Gaudí ( Talk:Antoni_Gaudí#Gaudí's Nationality ) and Artur Mas ( Talk:Artur Mas#His nationality ) have extensive discussions on the question, with the consensus to use the "Catalan" label. All of these RfCs and Discussions have had a similar, clear resolution. There is also reasonable consensus for "a Catalan (person) from Spain", which your suggestions follows. Bdushaw (talk) 21:27, 9 July 2025 (UTC)Reply
What is more, there is an active "Incident Report" on the general problem of Catalan/Spanish reversion: Information icon There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved.Bdushaw (talk) 21:27, 9 July 2025 (UTC)Reply
The Administrator's "Incident Report" has been archived without further discussion: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1194#h-Catalan/Spanish_labels_in_the_lead_sentence_of_biographies_of_Catalan_subjects-20250708173400 There were no substantive objections to the gist of the report. Bdushaw (talk) 23:41, 16 July 2025 (UTC)Reply


Requested move 5 February 2026

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved   Amakuru (talk) 16:35, 16 February 2026 (UTC)Reply


Pablo CasalsPau Casals – The subject of the article was Catalan and stated on several occasions that he preferred the name Pau over Pablo, even in Spanish contexts [1]. Note that while his name was legally registered as "Pablo," this was inevitable because it was illegal to register a name in Catalan in the registro civil during his lifetime. acomas (talk) 03:03, 5 February 2026 (UTC)Reply

  • Oppose. This has been discussed multiple times over the years. "Pablo Casals" was his chosen professional name in the United States, where he could have chosen any name, how his recordings and advertisements in English were billed while alive, how he signed autographs, and still the most common name for him in English. -- Infrogmation (talk) 03:57, 5 February 2026 (UTC)Reply
  • Support/Oppose. I am of two minds on this question. First, there have been extensive, exhaustive discussions of this question on this Talk page over many years - they are all archived. We need to post a pinned resolution of the question. It seems evident that "Pablo" is most commonly used in the English world, but, that being said, while "inertia", or "that's the way it has always been" has value as an argument, it is not compelling. To me, the name "Pablo" seems startlingly wrong - it is telling that, as noted above, both the Spanish and Catalan Wikipedia pages use "Pau". "Pau" is the correct Catalan name, but as has been noted, the subject would have been forced to use "Pablo" in official Spanish documents (e.g., passport) during the Franco era. The nature of that era may well be why many citations use "Pablo", and, in the case of the American press, perhaps an element of ignorance regarding the Catalan question. The subject notably lived outside Spain for many years in protest of the Franco regime. The issue has similarities to the "Catalan/Spanish" label question (c.f., pinned consensus above), as well as the naming of articles such as "Empuries/Ampuries" (see Talk page). I try to resolve such questions from the perspective of good writing and what is the best approach for English speakers, e.g., an American tourist arriving in Catalonia asking about "Pablo Casals" would be looked at strangely. Given the subject's strong association with Puerto Rico, the case for "Pau" is not as strong as for other Catalan subjects, though the subject was intensely Catalan. To me the naming usage on the Fundacio Pau Casals web page has great value - "Pau" for the Catalan version, "Pablo" for other languages, and offering the "Pablo Casals International Award", which supports young cellists. But it is the "Pau Casals Museum". I lean toward making the change in the article name, letting Pau have the name used in the country he obviously loved, but emphasizing the use of "Pablo" by English speakers in the article. The question has arisen in the article for the song made famous by Casals El cant dels ocells. Bdushaw (talk) 12:40, 5 February 2026 (UTC)Reply
"Pablo Casals", 1915 - more than 20 years before the Spanish Civil War
Comment: To head off any resurgence of the demonstrably completely false allegation that Casal's use of "Pablo" was somehow a product of the repression of Catalans under the Franco dictatorship, do note that he was internationally famous and celebrated under the name "Pablo Casals" decades before Franco's rise to power. -- Infrogmation (talk) 21:39, 5 February 2026 (UTC)Reply
That is a strong argument. Here is his tombstone
012 Cementiri del Vendrell, tomba de Pau Casals
. Bdushaw (talk) 00:21, 6 February 2026 (UTC)Reply
  • Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. Very well-known worldwide as Pablo Casals. Easily his commonest name in English-language sources. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:38, 6 February 2026 (UTC)Reply
  • Comments Contemplating the edit history for the redirect page Pau Casals, I see that the naming of this page has changed back and forth numerous times over the past 20 years! (Initially by Editor Infrogmation!). Seems to me the argument is over two scenarios:
*Scenario 1: The status quo. The name of the article stays the same, while the page Pau Casals stays as a redirect. Under this scenario, it seems to me the article ought to begin with "Pablo Casals", whereas it now begins with the Catalan name. The name to start the article should be an aspect of the resolution of this Move question.
*Scenario 2: The name of the article changes to Pau Casals, with Pablo Casals as a redirect. In this case, the start of this article Pau Casals stays the same. The article should then explain how/why Pablo Casals is the most common usage in English.
* Indeed, in both scenarios, the article should carefully explain the Pablo/Pau name issue; I recommend a section devoted to it. Would that we had a solid reference explaining Pablo/Pau's choice to use Pablo for recordings and in the English world.
* I reiterate my comment above that the results of this discussion should be pinned to this talk page. I seriously object to the numerous ongoing, endless, festering, repeated, lengthy, etc. discussions, coupled with edit warring, that seem to regularly occur on Wikipedia. It is not constructive and a huge waste of time. (And I apologize for not checking the Archives of this Talk page before this began.) Bdushaw (talk) 18:27, 7 February 2026 (UTC)Reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.