Talk:Ogaden

Rauso and OR

The cited work linking the Ogaden to the ancient region of Rauso is WP:OR as the text Dr. Shitomi does not mention the Ogaden at all rather it gives the location of the land of incense as Northern Somalia Somaliaficionado (talk) 04:12, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

It was not in Somalia. It was located in Ogaden.WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT is not a good enough reasons to vandalise pages on Wikipedia 148.252.147.111 (talk) 16:19, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Check the map https://files.fm/u/d2sgumf86f 148.252.147.111 (talk) 16:32, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

This is WP:SNYTH Somaliaficionado (talk) 18:19, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Then don’t use Dr. Shitomi as a source because he definitely doesn’t say Rauso Corresponds to the Ogaden Somaliaficionado (talk) 18:15, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

It’s been changed to William Vincent now. 148.252.147.111 (talk) 19:55, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Vincent also doesn’t mention the Ogaden. Barbaria was a large region stretching from modern day Djibouti to modern day Tanzania. The question isn’t if Rauso corresponds with Somalia but if Rauso corresponds with the Ogaden. What you are doing is WP:Synth and Original Research unless you can find me a source which explicitly says Rauso corresponds to the Ogaden

“Do not combine material from multiple sources to state or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to state or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. If one reliable source says A and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C not mentioned by either of the sources. This would be improper editorial synthesis of published material to imply a new conclusion, which is original research.”

Somaliaficionado (talk) 14:15, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Here is the nail in the coffin.

https://books.google.com/books?id=fRBFAQAAMAAJ&q=Visited+mosyllitick&redir_esc=y#v=snippet&q=Visited%20mosyllitick&f=false 148.252.144.47 (talk) 17:02, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

What nail in the coffin? The source still does not mention Rauso. Quit edit warring or I will have to bring in moderators to deal with this. Replayerr (talk) 10:50, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Cognitive dissonance? It says it was right in the interior of Zeyla inbetween Adal and Abyssinia. Why did you remove it? It’s sourced??? Samirlalas (talk) 11:09, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

The interior of Zeyla inbetween Adal and Abyssinia, it does not mention the Ogaden which makes it WP:OR. Refrain from original research and assuming things that are not written. Replayerr (talk) 11:41, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

The source then again, does not make any mention of the Ogaden and only describes the journey through Ethiopia and Adal as that of Rauso and Solaté. Enough with the IP vandalism. @Samirlalas Replayerr (talk) 11:47, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

But can’t you show me a source that mentions Adal and Ogaden in the same sentence If it says it was located off Bab El Mandeb and in the interior of Zeyla inbetween Adal and Abyssinia? https://books.google.com/books?id=2O3MRjQycg4C&pg=PA51&q=Roughly%20incence%20barbarians%20Djibouti%20Somalia Samirlalas (talk) 14:04, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

You shouldn’t have removed the other stuff. Ogaden actually borders Djibouti and Kenya too and not just Somalia. It is not commonly known as Galbeed either but natively by Somali people. No Ethiopian or European for that matter knows what the word “Galbeed” means Samirlalas (talk) 14:45, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Section on Ogaden independence

@Whoopsawa, are we now going to make statements for every region that werent under a specific occupation? Is that needed? Will we make statements that India wasnt British prior to British occupation too? The statement isnt needed if you would like it included move it to controversary section on claims by Ethiopia in contemporary political arena (if ethiopians are making the claim that Ogaden was part of ethiopia) not in a section about the 1800s. Magherbin (talk) 03:11, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

@Magherbin You opening lines here are disingenuous and I'm honestly incredulous that you are acting like this. The content will remain. Not something I take lightly in the slightest and I recommend you leave it be unless you want to start a pointless dragged out debate. Whoopsawa (talk) 03:16, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

See map of Ethiopian expansions from 1886 . If the statement is to insinuate Ogaden was the sole expansion of the Ethiopian empire in the region during the 1800s its a futile attempt at rewriting history. I'm not going back and forth on this, I dont find this a priority. Magherbin (talk) 03:31, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

Straight up have no idea what you are trying to get at. There's nothing to insinuate, the text you removed says what it says in pretty clear terms. Not sure what that map (sourced from a post card on eBay???) has to do with this either. If you don't find it a priority than just leave the text alone and there's no problem. Whoopsawa (talk) 03:47, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

Requested move 10 August 2025

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Vpab15 (talk) 11:03, 18 September 2025 (UTC)

---

Ogaden → History of OgadenHistory of Ogaden – Currently we have Ogaden and Somali Region, which are two names for approximately the same region, so essentially WP:POVFORKs (regarding whether they are contiguous, the Encyclopedia of Africa says The Ogaden is a contested territory, currently under Ethiopian jurisdiction, but also claimed by Somalia. It seems ill-defined, however this source says I use the geographic names Somali region and Ogaden interchangeably). Given Ogaden is the historical name, to me it makes more sense to turn that article into a history article (which it already essentially is bar the Demography and Geography sections). Potentially it could be History of the Somali Region, but that's anachronistic, incredibly contentious, and RSs overwhelmingly use Ogaden when discussing history. Kowal2701 (talk) 22:02, 10 August 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. TarnishedPath^talk 12:38, 18 August 2025 (UTC)

• Ogaden (historical region) seems like a better alternative. Magherbin (talk) 23:57, 10 August 2025 (UTC)
• Support per nom, although I'd rather this gets moved to History of the Somali Region instead. Most "History of X" articles use the modern names of the region in question. One example is the History of Yemen article, which is named this way, although it is referred to as South Arabia in historic sources 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 05:44, 11 August 2025 (UTC)

  Not a good example at all. Yemen is a soverign country, which even before its establishment has existed in some form for thousands of years. While Ogaden is a contested region whose boundaries and governance has been disputed heavily in recent history.

  The 'Somali Region' is merely the Ethiopian adminstrative name for the region which was made in a few decades ago, and isnt even widely used outside of the Ethiopian government. Most media, historical documents, educational institutions and any other relevant source referencing the region use the more dominant term Ogaden.

  Your claim of using the more 'modern' name to discuss the history of a region as being the wikipedia precedent is questionable. I will assume good faith here, but how can a politcally charged, minimally recognized name be used to label history that predates it by centuries? Dervish10 (talk) 07:54, 12 August 2025 (UTC)

  Listen, I'm already tired of the so-called minimization of history that you and other Somali WP:POVPUSHers are trying to attempt here. The Ogaden was a contested region, back in the 70s. You probably weren't born back then. You can mourn the Somali defeat in the Ogaden War somewhere else. Somalia has relinquished all claims over the Ogaden, or how it should be correctly referred to as, the Somali region. No one provided any proof that that geographic region is actually two different entities. the article literally disagrees with what you're claiming and clearly refers to the Ogaden as a mere historical name of the Somali region. "But the subdivision was created only two decades ago" it does NOT matter. Modern-day Somalia was established in 2012. What are you trying to say? The history of Somalia should only encompass post-2012 events? If not, then why the double standards? Also stop WP:BLUDGEONing this discussion 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 08:15, 12 August 2025 (UTC)

  The Ogaden war did not initially center on Somalia's claims; rather, it was focused on the occupied populations in the region. It was only later that the Somali state appropriated the movement and redirected it to serve their own interests. anyways see WP:AVOIDYOU and WP:STICK Magherbin (talk) 08:50, 12 August 2025 (UTC)

  Incredibly rude response, mourn the defeat of the Ogaden War? Somalia relinquishing claims? me not being born back then?? This is textbook sterotyping from you as I never even talked about any of that.

  What are you even talking about boss, this discussion is about the title being changed from Ogaden > History of Ogaden. Many people have already provided proof that they are two different entities in the previous multiple discussions you have actually started. Some being closed without a decision for some reason?

  For the articles. The Somali region is the Ethiopian administrative name for the political subdivision which happens to encompass a large part of the Ogaden. This does not make it a direct continuation.

  To give you a better understanding as to why time does matter in this case, and why it differs between the Somalia and this Ogaden page is for Somalia you have a complete government and political structure change so it warrants a seperate article. Even here you see how your claim dosent really make since, because instead of labeling previous governments as historical. They (Other wikipedia editors) just use the name for it. This dosent directly apply to the Ogaden though because its the name of the physical region also, but even if we ignore that crucial detail you can definitely see how your claim of them being the same thing is falling apart. The best example I can come up with is Transoxiana, but there are also various others.

  Also you should probably know that the history of the Ogaden term does not start with the Ogaden War in 1977. There is a reason why Ogaden is the much preferred and Dominant name.

  Also about your last remark, you should review the page.

  "To falsely accuse someone of bludgeoning is considered uncivil, and should be avoided. Everyone should have the chance to express their views within reasonable limits. Sometimes, a long comment or replying multiple times is perfectly acceptable or needed for consensus building."

  I would please ask that you dont use potential or alleged WP rule violations as leverage against my claims, especially as a new editor. Just tell me what you disagree with and why you think its wrong without assumptions. The reason I gave multiple replies is to just discuss, I have a right too - just like you have a right to challenge essentially the same thing over and over.

  I also pinged the other users involved in the other discussion, because starting another very similar discussion on another page, which I believe is a continuation by kowal? without notifying them is unethical. Dervish10 (talk) 18:10, 12 August 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose. I'm not seeing the problem that we are trying to solve here. Generally no 'History of X' article without an X article. Srnec (talk) 01:46, 12 August 2025 (UTC)

  Agreed, some examples given like History of Yemen already have a parent page of yemen.

  This proposal, in my view is insinuating that Somali Region is the parent page of the Ogaden page.

  Which I find weird considering the overwhelming consensus of the previous discussion was these two articles are different. Dervish10 (talk) 08:02, 12 August 2025 (UTC)

  Srnec The short description is Historic name of Somali Region in Ethiopia and it’s first sentence says the same, it’s an alternative name for the Somali Region. A merge proposal at Talk:Somali Region failed, so in order to not have two articles on the same thing I think we need to change the scope slightly. I like the notion of Magherbin's proposal above but it’s unnecessary disambiguation. The scope for Somali Region could be the administrative entity, whereas the scope for this could be the historical region pre-Menelik's conquests in the late 19th century (and not have to change the title)? But we’d have to get rid of info on present day demographics etc. Kowal2701 (talk) 19:46, 12 August 2025 (UTC)

Oppose This change is not beneficial. Ogaden is not a historical name, in fact in your statement, the two sources you provide actually use Ogaden in the present tense. - Ogaden and Somali Region supposedly being 'interchangeable' is a whole different discussion which is going on in a seperate page, the overwhelming consensus is oppose for that.

But anyways, regarding this overall proposal of yours, Ogaden is a region. Switching to that tile will greatly reduce its significance as a toponym. Ogaden Clan, Ogaden Basin, Ogaden National Liberation Front, Ogaden... and many many other pages all rely on this keystone page.

Also this would inevitably set up the false arguement that the Somali Region page should be used as a redirect instead of the page 'History of Ogaden' because why would a history page be a redirect, especially if someone less familiar with somali history comes along. Basically, it will cause confusion and will damage any page connected to Ogaden which is a lot of them. Dervish10 (talk) 07:36, 12 August 2025 (UTC)

@Limegreencoral@QalasQalas@GoldenDragonHorn Pinging these users here as they were also well involved in the previous discussion, and should be notified about this recent development.

@Kowal2701 I noticed that you closed the last discussion and subsequently created this one, and I also dont see an admins note on what the final decision was, is this a normal course of action? Im a new editor. Dervish10 (talk) 08:11, 12 August 2025 (UTC)

Technically, per the "official" instructions (noted as more of a guideline) closers are asked to write a clear, concise closing statement, which "moved" or "not moved" just barely satisfies. In practice, that's more common than a lengthier statement, which is usually reserved for when there is more to say. You are also always free to message or ping the closer if you have any questions. ASUKITE 16:07, 27 August 2025 (UTC)

Ogaden.

Somali Region

Oppose - The Ogaden is not just the ‘historical’ name of the Somali Region, its still the common local name of a highly contested Somali inhabited area in the Horn of Africa that exceeds the delineations set by the Ethiopian state with regards to the new administrative entity they call the Somali Region. The two maps I have added on the right clearly show large parts of the Somali inhabited areas known collectively as the Ogaden were left out of the new administrative regional borders. They are therefore not the same or contiguous, nor should any similarities or overlapping elements in their articles be used as a justification to erase the agency of the locals.

If Israel were to delineate Gaza as the ‘Palestinian Region’ or Russia referred to Crimea as the ‘Ukrainian Region', we don’t suddenly nominate the current Gaza and Crimea articles to be merged into these new political administrations, or rename them as ‘historical regions’, when the topics and geographic areas in question are still in common use and highly contested, but that’s exactly what is being suggested here, and though Kowal2701's intentions are in good faith, a merge would fall short of WP:SNPOV when it comes to controversial topics. Recent publications, be it books, journals, newspapers or broadcasting specials on the region also refer to it as the Ogaden, not from a historical perspective, but in reference to modern events and political dynamics in the region. It’s not a discontinued name like Persia or Abyssinia, but one that is fully alive and kicking among locals, in reputable news outlets and in academic sources with a modern context, see here:

What this request does demonstrate is that the Ogaden article needs to make it clear that its still the common modern name to refer to the area, not just historical, using multiple reliable sources. That the Ogaden is a distinct ethnocultural region like Tibet, despite the latter’s overlapping content with the Tibet Autonomous Region. That it includes other areas not administered by the current Somali Region. That its self-determination struggle predated Somali governmental support, and continued without it. That its still very much a contested area with a local national liberation front and a active insurgency, and therefore needs extra care when proposing major changes. --GoldenDragonHorn (talk) 20:26, 12 August 2025 (UTC)

The definition certainly needs to be changed to define it as a geographical region. This source defines it as The Ogaden region is located on the Somali Plateau, in southeast Ethiopia. Originally a clan-based term, the Ogaden is now commonly used for the entire region below about 1,500 m a.s.l., an area of some 300,000 km2 that encompasses most of the Somali Regional State and includes the southwest portion of Oromia. This is the only decent definition I could find, I'm sure there are more but Ogaden Basin complicates things. Some sources just say 'the areas inhabited by Somalis in eastern Ethiopia' Kowal2701 (talk) 20:44, 12 August 2025 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Geography, WikiProject Somalia, and WikiProject Ethiopia have been notified of this discussion. TarnishedPath^talk 12:40, 18 August 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Haud northern part of Ogaden

Haud northern part of Ogaden 185.69.145.84 (talk) 00:48, 25 August 2025 (UTC)

References