Talk:Netherlands

Netherlands vs Holland

The first sentence states:

"The Netherlands, informally Holland, is a country ..."

However, referring to the whole country as 'Holland' is discouraged by the Dutch government and often considered a faux pas by inhabitants of the other regions of the country (See also this entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminology_of_the_Low_Countries#Holland). Given that the context of the country page is the country, would it not be more correct to rephrase it to as something along the lines of 'The Netherlands, historically also referred to as Holland, is a country ...'. Or perhaps leave it out entirely here, since there are other pages discussing it? 2A02:A442:777E:2:F984:D5FD:A19F:50C3 (talk) 11:41, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

Many, if not most, English speakers primarily call the country "Holland". It's up to Wikipedia to reflect this in the lead without wagging its finger on behalf of people who don't like this. "Historically" isn't even correct, because that usage is current, it isn't something found only in older publications. In the section on the country's name, it's appropriate to point out (in a neutral tone) that it's a semantic shift from the names of the provinces.

I've struck out some of what I wrote originally because on reflection I realized that in previous discussions along the same lines, I've perhaps conflated what people say with what's found in reliable sources. I'm now thinking a priori that perhaps reliable sources consistently use "Netherlands", in which case it would be reasonable to qualify the use of "Holland" in the lead as "often popularly called" or something like that. I still reject the position of some that we should engage in finger-wagging by writing something like "erroneously". And "historically", as I wrote above, is incorrect. Largoplazo (talk) 12:42, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

The usage is informal in English. Anon uses "however" yet says in many words the same. It's an I don't like it argument without merit. No cumbersome passive language will describe informal better. In most other languages the usage is formal. In Dutch and English, Holland is a synonym for the Netherlands, including in leading dictionaries of the Netherlands. As you correctly point out, the qualification of "historical" is false. gidonb (talk) 02:09, 4 August 2025 (UTC)

I am not convinced that many reliable sources refer to the Netherlands as Holland these days. Very much . Unless a significant number of very reliable and well-known sources can be cited, the phrase "informally Holland" needs to be removed or, at least, significantly reworded. Like "England" vs "UK", this is a mistake that happened a lot twenty years ago, but rarely happens in 2025. Andrew Oakley (talk) 20:09, 1 October 2025 (UTC)

The lead should be changed and the reference to 'Holland' ought to be removed. The article on the United Kingdom doesn't mention that the UK is informally referred to as 'England' either.Vlaemink (talk) 11:28, 30 October 2025 (UTC)

@Vlaemink I disagree. Many English-speaking persons still refer to the country as Holland, and as such I think it should be recognizable in the lead. Thayts ••• 12:10, 19 December 2025 (UTC)

Its wrong and it should be avoided even informally , it needs to be removed from the text ~2026-10460-17 (talk) 20:18, 16 February 2026 (UTC)

We're reporting that it's commonly called that because it is commonly called that. It isn't telling anyone they should call it that, and it isn't proper for the sentence to scold people, so whether it's "right" or "wrong" is irrelevant. Largoplazo (talk) 22:05, 16 February 2026 (UTC)

This is easily resolved. It should read, "often incorrectly referred to as Holland", or something like that. The Scots would be livid if the UK were called England. Americans would be livid if the US were called New York.

The problem with the current sentence is that it puts it on the level of a nickname. It's not a nickname. It's just a product of ignorance and wrong. ~2026-45800-45 (talk) 13:46, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

I really wish my fellow dutchmen wouldn't be so persistent at lecturing foreigners about this. Hup Holland Hup. niet zo betweterig en door. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 22:16, 16 February 2026 (UTC)

There are a couple of ironies associated with this. For one thing, no Dutch people ever come here complaining that the word "Dutch" is wrong and asking us to correct it to "Netherlandish". For another, even people from the Netherlands' own former colony Indonesia call it "Belanda" in their national language. The colonial administration appears not to have been as stressed by this as some Wikipedia users are. Largoplazo (talk) 22:50, 16 February 2026 (UTC)

china once also called nl Hèlan (hollan')

but now they call us Nîdèlan (Nederlan').

as an indonesian descendant myself i can tell you ths argument is also invalid because we do have a word named "tanah rendah" ~2026-40907-15 (talk) 16:30, 21 July 2026 (UTC)

Are you a Hollander by any chance? I as a South-Hollander lived in Limburg for about a decade and have learnt the hard way that the rest of the Netherlands definitely isn't pleased with being called "Holland". Limburgers still see us as occupiers (which, technically, historically we are). Then again, this discussion comes up on this talk page more often than a blue moon and repeatedly, the removal of the mention of "Holland" in this article is blocked by some people who refuse to learn how to pronounce "Netherlands". It's one of the reasons why Wikipedia can't be used as a reliable source. ~2026-23219-39 (talk) 20:13, 14 April 2026 (UTC)

Who are these mysterious people who purportedly "refuse" to learn how to pronounce "Netherlands"? (As though there's anything challenging about pronouncing that word.) And what part of the lead sentence is unreliable? It doesn't say "Dutch people adore it when English-speakers call their country 'Holland'". (Also, why do I never see complaints from Dutch people about being called "Dutch" by English speakers, given that "Duits" means "German"?) Largoplazo (talk) 21:34, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

Probably because "Dutch" doesn't refer to "Duits" but to "Diets", an old Germanic language from which German, Dutch, English, Luxembourgish and other Germanic languages have derived. ~2026-23426-91 (talk) 09:31, 16 April 2026 (UTC)

It's not that people can't pronounce Netherlands. It's that they literally just don't know that Holland is not a legitimate pseudonym.

Just be glad they aren't calling it the Nether Regions. ~2026-45800-45 (talk) 13:49, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

All that said, yeah, this misunderstanding needs to be made clear in the opening line. If wikipedia isn't correcting stuff like this, then what's it here for? ~2026-45800-45 (talk) 13:50, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

You've got an article providing huge amounts of information on the country, but nothing in it is of value unless Wikipedia wags its finger at English speakers in the first sentence of the article over what they call things? Is that what you're saying? Largoplazo (talk) 16:54, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

...You really have not ever left the Holland provinces, have you? Or learnt about the history of NL? Holland is really a dark name, I'm surprised you are defending and justifying it. The vast majority of Dutch speakers who still say Holland as a synonym are Hollandish themselves. Oh, the irony.

And yeah, the comments are English on this page, so there's no reason to be rude to Dutch people in Dutch. BluBeare (talk) 22:08, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

Agreed. Holland refers to the historic province Holland in the Netherlands (now split into two- South and North). This is however, a very controversial name for people in the Netherlands, as the sea-bordering Holland people were the only ones able to travel the sea and meeting new people. They were very egocentric. They found that the rest of NL did not belong enough to be mentioned and cleverly called our nation "Holland" to satisfy their ego, because due to colonisation, slavery and other destruction, they had gained the majority of capital goods, influence over politics, by geographical location, access to the water with extensive shipbuilding techniques and decided over language in the entire Dutch nation, and therefore considered the rest of the nation as inferior or even unnoteworthy. These days, the name Holland refers not just to the dark history of the Dutch brute force on millions of foreigners; it also refers to the unjust forcing of Holland culture and language upon the rest of the nation.

Most non-Holland people today find the name very outdated and prefer for it to be called Netherlands. Other languages like Italian, French, Spanish, German, English and Portuguese have already made this shift *Paesi Bassi|it "Low/Nether Lands"* in the last ten years.

Any "Dutch" person arguing that Holland is not an issue: they are most likely Holland people who don´t understand how much of an issue this is to actual people from anywhere else but Holland.

About the word Dutch: yeah, I think we can agree that "Dutch" is derived from the Diets language and is factually incorrect and outdated. It can be changed too if we want to be really rational- but I don´t see many people anywhere in NL who feel bothered by that word, really. Holland is a different case and should be seriously reconsidered. I'm honestly surprised it is still considered a valid synonym: that's very dark.

And btw if we want to be completely rational: Holland means woodland, which is factually inaccurate, because the Holland provinces are the most industrialised and urbanised of all provinces in the Netherlands and lack forests at large-scale.

But that's not the point. Let's not call a country by its oppressive name. Let's reconsider this seriously now. BluBeare (talk) 22:04, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

Literature flourished during the Dutch Golden Age

Did it? Outside of maybe two writers, there's not much Dutch literature during that time. The Netherlands excelled in visual arts (painting) than literacy - they never had a rich literature or poetry tradition.

I also find some statements on this page a bit ego-centric and hugely Dutch exceptionalism. I am Dutch myself, and 'Dutch value system' paragraph should be removed. It's insulting that this is a thing in the 21st century. Many Dutch people are not proud of their history, and understand their role in the slave trade.

This is also a nation that has seen a rapid growth in far-right politics over the past 20 years and a nation with high-levels of racism.

The Netherlands has many minorities that cannot be proud of the Dutch Empire or its culture because of slavery.

Tolerant is something I wouldn't call a country on Wikipedia. ~2026-31247-95 (talk) 16:07, 24 May 2026 (UTC)

haha and the only reason for being "tolerant" is because denying jews, gays, women, etc. wouldnt benefit the economy. whenever the economy went bad, they became right at the scapegoat again. not as tolerant as the Dutch pride. BluBeare (talk) 08:00, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

Food Waste

The source referred to does NOT support at all that the Dutch are the largest wasters of food. As the page is locked I cannot correct this. ~2026-35683-19 (talk) 13:21, 18 June 2026 (UTC)

 Done, as the cited source puts them exactly at the average for the EU. Belbury (talk) 13:29, 18 June 2026 (UTC)

Dutch

The name "Dutch" is not accurate. Dutch refers to an old language "Diets". This is an archaic language however. Modern people from the Netherlands speak Nederlands, which is Netherlandish in English. This term is not very widespread, I am aware, but should also not be popularised as this is culturally false. It should at least be noted somewhere that Dutch means something else than Netherlandish.

We are Netherlandish-speaking people from the Netherlands. We are Netherlanders. Not Dutch(ies), not Dutch-speaking, and definitely not Holland or Hollandish or Hollanders.

Our southern neighbours in North Belgium speak Flemish. Not Dutch. It is an accent tone of Netherlandish. ~2026-40907-15 (talk) 16:39, 21 July 2026 (UTC)

"This term is not very widespread", therefore, we use the WP:COMMONAME "Dutch". Tbhotch^™ (CC BY-SA 4.0) 18:50, 21 July 2026 (UTC)

Also, there are some factual misunderstandings. "Diets" is simply an old spelling variant of "Duits", the name presently used for German but earlier used for the whole of continental West Germanic dialects. People in the north of Belgium typically speak Dutch. Their dialects are often called Flemish but that's very misleading. Only a minority, in West and East Flanders, use true Flemish dialects. The others speak Brabantian or Limburgish. And the dialect speakers in the Dutch province of Zealand (to use the historic exonym) and the island of Goeree-Overflakkee speak Flemish.--MWAK (talk) 13:58, 26 September 2026 (UTC)

National Day

No mention of the country's national day 27. april? ~2026-45803-09 (talk) 12:52, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

Perhaps all the holidays (not just that one) could be mentioned somewhere. At the moment the Christian holidays on the national calendar are mentioned in the Religion section. Largoplazo (talk) 16:59, 21 August 2026 (UTC)