Talk:Muhammad Ali of Egypt

His origins

According to Albanians even jesus christ is albanian! Muhamed pasha was turkish with arabic origins even his name is arabic not albanian ! You can try and try to brainwash people minds but the turks are who invented the TAPI and they have the documents that shows his origins end his mather and father and grandmother and grandfather! 77.28.136.134 (talk) 09:18, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

the editor tries to make mehmet ali forcibly Albanian though no one ever said that the man used any Albanian single word. Here is a link to his granddaughter telling the story about the man though this makes Albanian sad.

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.110642

wikipedia shouldn't be hijacked to prove what is not proven. M.MehmetSerhan (talk) 16:10, 14 July 2025 (UTC)

name

I think his actual name was "Kavala Ali Pasha" he was from Ottoman Albania.

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Origins theory

I don't see the reason of the removal behind the statement "Some historians argue that his family migrated to Kavala from Konya", and the claim of it being not backed up by academic sources?

• The notable Egyptian scholar Abd al Rahman, who lived and died during Muhammad Ali's reign said in his book which is considered one of the most important books in history of Egypt at that time Book of Wonders of Antiquities 55-57/4 that Muhammad Ali family migrated to Kavala from Konya.
• The notable historian Shafiq Gharbal, who founded Egyptian Society for Historical Studies, said in his book Muhammed Ali Pasha the great (1944), "Muhammad Ali was a Turkish, whose lineage didn't have connections with the Albanians or the Macedonian Greeks"
• The writer Ismail Mursi wrote in his book ''From a Turkish family; that came from Konya and lived in Macedonia. He is an Ottoman Turkish Muslim; He is neither related to the Albanians nor to the Slavic people of Macedonia and Greece by any lineage".

Furthermore, Baron Duois Lecomte asked Ibrahim Pasha Why was he slandering Turks, if he was one of them. This is verified and mentioned by Royal Jewelry Museum and multiple journals & books.

This is not some internet theory that doesn't have any sources. It was mentioned by many historians & books, thus it's backed up by academic sources. I don't see any reason for its removal. There are theories about origins of many historical characters, and it's mentioned in their articles such as Nefertiti and Marco Polo. Again it's only mentioned as an argument and not a stated fact, so there should be no problem in it being there.

Caesarion8 (talk) 20:32, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

It was common for Albanian pashas to claim an old Anatolian origin, e.g. the Pasha of Janina in order to uphold claims on land, for instance. He's literally one of the best documented Albanians in that area.

Also, Albanians quite frequently were referred to as "Turks" pre-19th century due to the fact that they were Muslims. Furthernmore, they even did that themselves in order to denote their religion ([1]). Ibrahim Pasha's statement (or rather vague question addressed to him), therefore, cannot be used as an argument.

There have been countless discussions on this, and there's a reason WP:STABLE remained like this until now. AlexBachmann (talk) 22:55, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

What you are trying to do here is to oppose the theory, which is apparently the excuse of removing the statement. In Nefertiti article, it mentions a theory that she could have been a Syrian princess, although this theory was opposed by the fact that Tey was her wet-nurse which means that Nefertiti was in Egypt as a child, it's still mentioned in the article, because it's stated by verifiable Egyptologists and Historians.

It's not against Wikipedia rules to write down a theory that is mentioned by verifiable and academic sources. Caesarion8 (talk) 03:12, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Extra quote from Khaled Fahmy: Few facts can be established about these early years with any degree of certainty. However, there is no doubt surrounding the identity of his father — a man called Ibrahim Aga, the son of Osman Aga, son of Ibrahim Aga. Family tradition maintained that Ibrahim Aga was not originally from Kavala and that his paternal grandfather had hailed from Konya in central Anatolia. Before then the family traced its origins to areas further east, which gave rise to an idea that they were originally Kurds. Be that as it may, by the time they settled in Kavala in ca. 1700, they had lost whatever Kurdish identity they might have had; their language was Turkish, they professed Sunni Islam and intermingled with Rumelia’s population of Muslims, Jews and Orthodox Christians who were all subjects of the Ottoman sultan. Beshogur (talk) 10:03, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

Prominent Egyptian historians, including Khaled Fahmy, affirm that Muhammad Ali of Egypt was indeed of Turkish origin, It's not an old internet theory.

Moreover, you're not accurately representing Caesarion8's argument. He did not suggest removing the mention of Albanian origin. Instead, he argued that we should retain the mention of Anatolian (Turkish) origin on Muhammad Ali's Wikipedia page, as it is supported by numerous credible historians.

Therefore, it is crucial to clarify why it isn't possible to present a dual-origin theory in this case, especially since other historical figures, such as Hayreddin Barbarossa, have multiple theories regarding their origins listed.HanKim20 (talk) 00:37, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: There is no dual origin theory and no such theory was ever included in the article because it is both WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE. The overwhelming number of sources consider Muhammad Ali's origin as Albanian. Outdated sources can't cited in wikipedia. Marsot (1984):

He was the son of Uthman Agha, the son of Ibrahim Agha, showing a military background for three generations. Beyond that, little is known about the family, or their origins. While historians have described them as being of Albanian origin, a family tradition believed that they might have been of Kuridsh stock, and come from a village, Ilic, eastern Anatolia, where they were horse traders. (..) That was pure myth (..) All the Albanians in the Ottoman forces in Egypt formed a bloc within the army that was distinct and separate from the rest of the men (..) Because of the tribal character of the Albanian troops and the demise of their superior officers, none but an Albanian could lead these troops and this, as well as his qualities and charisma, accounts for Muhammad Ali's swift rise in rank. The fact that Muhammad Ali was an Albanian, a member of a linguistic and ethnic minority group within the Ottoman family is significant. Editors need to engage with the subject from a historical perspective. The history of the Muhammad Ali dynasty is closely linked to its origins and the political strategy which they used in the context of their ancestry:

• History of the Coptic Orthodox People and the Church of Egypt: In 1913, Fuad made unsuccessful attempts to secure for himself the throne of Albania, which had obtained its independence from the Ottoman Empire a year earlier. At the time, Egypt and Sudan were ruled by his nephew, Abbas II, and the likelihood of Fuad becoming the monarch in his own country seemed remote. Given the fact that the Muhammad Ali Dynasty was of Albanian descent, encouraged Fuad to seek the Albanian throne.
• Foundations of Modernity: Human Agency and the Imperial StateDocuments produced by consuls based in Cairo during the period of 1880-1912 offer a rich picture of the way in which factions in the Ottoman Arnavut migrant communities operated in Egypt. (..) These Austrian reports, for instance, reveal that among the prominent Muslim Toskë families in Egypt (..) alliances were generally forged with the Khedive's family. In one of these internal Austro-Hungarian reports: Faik Konitza, based in Brussels, once highlighted the close relationship with select groups of Ottoman Albanian living in Egypt. For instance, the uncle of the Khedive, Ahmed Fuad Pasha, supported the publishing of Albanian-language journals, both in Arabic and Greek script, throught Egypt and the larger Mediterranean world. (Ottoman Refugees, 1878-1939: Migration in a Post-Imperial World) These issues cannot be bypassed by simply searching for sources which mentioned Muhammad Ali + Turk. The main reason why in the 19th century an Albanian community formed in Egypt was the Muhammad Ali dynasty which favored Albanian migration.--Maleschreiber (talk) 13:03, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

His descendant Prince Abbas Hilmi telling the horse trader story, but unclear. is worthy to mention the story if their family tells this way.

TDV İslâm Ansiklopedisi: Bazı tarihçiler onun Arnavut kökenli olduğunu ileri sürerlerse de oğlu İbrâhim Paşa tarafından kaleme alınan bir belgede Mehmed Ali’nin babası İbrâhim Ağa ve dedesi Osman Ağa’nın bir kan davasından dolayı Konya’dan Kavala’ya göç ettikleri açıkça ifade edilmektedir. translated to: Although some historians claim that he was of Albanian origin, a document written by his son Ibrahim Pasha clearly states that Mehmed Ali's father Ibrahim Agha and grandfather Osman Agha migrated from Konya to Kavala due to a blood feud.

It is still making him Albanian because of his mother side. Beshogur (talk) 09:54, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

• Comment: some editors seem to ignore the historical fact that Albanian soldiers in the Ottoman army strictly observed a kinship-based organization and network system. Albanians were widely known in the Ottoman Empire as an ethnic group, Arnaut, among the few peoples of the Empire that were identified in terms of ethnicity and not religion. They were the most renowned people in terms of military prowess. They didn't care about the Ottoman central authorities. Read Anscombe 2006. In the second half of the 18th century and the first half of the 19th century, mainly when the major Albanian pashas – Ali of Tepelena, Muhammad Ali, Kara Mahmud – rose to power, Albanians formed organized irregular bands that alteranated their activity between brigandage against the Ottoman authorities and service to the Porte when it suited them. And the Porte couldn't do anything but allow this, because the Ottoman government didn't have the power to contrast it, and it was widely exploited by Ottoman Albanian rulers. In that period Albanians were the major problem in the Ottoman Empire, which led to the creation of semi-autonomous entities like Ali Pasha's Albania/Janina, Kara Mahmud Pasha's Albania/Shkodra, and Muhammad Ali Pasha's Egypt, and later to revolutionary activities throughout the Balkans. The power system of those Albanian Pashas was strictly based on the reliance on Albanian troops, and on sending Albanian soldiers to the Porte when Ottoman authorities needed them.

Concerning Muhammad Ali Pasha, in particular, besides the sources mentioned above by other editors, here is what Anscombe poins out (Anscombe, Frederick (2006). "Albanians and "mountain bandits"". In Anscombe, Frederick (ed.). The Ottoman Balkans, 1750–1830. Princeton: Markus Wiener Publishers. pp. 87–113. ISBN 9781558763838. Archived from the original on 2016-01-25.):

• Albanians fighting for ambitious ayan was certainly not a phenomenon reserved solely for the Balkans. The retinue of the Bosnian Ahrned Cezzar Pasha ("The Butcher"), ayan of Acre on the Syrian coast (1775-1804), had a large Albanian component–as of course did that of the Albanian Mehmed Ali Pasha of Egypt (1805-49).
• Istanbul never could manage to crush that other famous Albanian provincial notable, Mehmed Ali Pasha, a sekban leader who left Kavala (Greece) to establish his dominance in Egypt. Mehmed Ali's actions and mindset bear a number of important similarities to those of Tepedelenli Ali.

The establishment of Muhammad Ali dynasty resulted from the establishment of the Albanian community in Egypt, beginning from the Albanian force sent by the Porte to drive Napoleon's troops out of Egypt. – Βατο (talk) 14:29, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

His mother was Albanian. His father's origins is obscure. Your whole paragraph doesn't tell any smallest thing about his origin. Beshogur (talk) 10:00, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

And yet there are multiple sources which quite clearly claim an Albanian origin on his father’s side too. The claim that their predecessors were from Kavala could very well be another case of Ottoman Era Albanian nobles inventing false ancestries to gain legitimacy, as was the case with Ali Pasha of Yanina (who, interestingly enough, also claimed to originate from Konya). However, these claims were false in the vast majority of cases.

Most sources discuss Ali and his rise to power in the context of him being an Albanian mercenary, and from what I’ve seen, the scholarly consensus seems to be that he was Albanian in origin. In fact, aside from what’s included in the article, I have a hard copy of a book which claims that his family descended from the Albanian village of Poum. As part of the claim, the authors used letters and archival works from Ali’s own family to come to such a conclusion. Perhaps that would be worth looking at too once this dispute is resolved. Botushali (talk) 14:28, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

So his son Ibrahim Pasha of Egypt says they're from Konya, but wikipedians and some historians decide that they aren't. Whether true or not, we can't know, it should be mentioned. Not mentioning is just censorship at this point. Ibrahim Pasha clearly states that Mehmed Ali's father Ibrahim Agha and grandfather Osman Agha migrated from Konya to Kavala due to a blood feud. Beshogur (talk) 17:20, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

Muhammad Ali's Albanian origin cannot be questioned, because he himself documented that he was a native of the mountains of Albania. Also other sources contemporary to Muhammad Ali documented that he was an Albanian. Mythical ancestries created by his descendants in later periods are irrelevant. – Βατο (talk) 17:30, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

"by his descendants" I correct it, literally by his son. You talk like it's a some sorth of mythology. Even semi-myths are included by origins section like the Aq Qoyunlu and Ottoman, Turkic dynasties. Ertugrul's ancestry is full of legend and speculation. This is not considered fringe whatsoever. Just a weak excuse. What I say is, it should be mentioned that Ibrahim Pasha stated that Mehmed Ali's father Ibrahim Agha and grandfather Osman Agha migrated from Konya to Kavala due to a blood feud. that's it. These are well sourced. Beshogur (talk) 19:51, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

Mythical narratives or speculations created in subsequent generations could be justified for figures with unknown background, but as demonstrated, it is not this case. – Βατο (talk) 20:20, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

What you say makes no sense. His son saying that his grandfather moved from Konya is not even close to a myth. Beshogur (talk) 21:01, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

Marsot (1984) describes this theory as "pure myth": He was the son of Uthman Agha, the son of Ibrahim Agha, showing a military background for three generations. Beyond that, little is known about the family, or their origins. While historians have described them as being of Albanian origin, a family tradition believed that they might have been of Kuridsh stock, and come from a village, Ilic, eastern Anatolia, where they were horse traders. (..) That was pure myth (..) All the Albanians in the Ottoman forces in Egypt formed a bloc within the army that was distinct and separate from the rest of the men (..) Because of the tribal character of the Albanian troops and the demise of their superior officers, none but an Albanian could lead these troops and this, as well as his qualities and charisma, accounts for Muhammad Ali's swift rise in rank. The fact that Muhammad Ali was an Albanian, a member of a linguistic and ethnic minority group within the Ottoman family is significant. --Maleschreiber (talk) 23:06, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

If his mother is Albanian, that'll make his mother tongue Albanian most likely. You don't get the point here. His son says that his grandfather (father of Mehmed Ali Pasha) migrated from Konya due to a blood feud. The speculation of his origins being from the east should be mentioned, and it should also be mentioned that historians see this not very probable. That's how wikipedia works, not neglecting an origin claim because people here think it's not true. Beshogur (talk) 11:12, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

I’m not sure why you keep insisting that only Ali’s mother was Albanian. Multiple scholarly sources clearly state that he had an Albanian origin. That’s the scholarly consensus, it’s probably best not to ignore that and interpret it as “his mother was Albanian”. Botushali (talk) 09:17, 3 July 2025 (UTC)

Just tell me why we should ignore what his offspring tells about his grandfather's origin? Beshogur (talk) 17:12, 3 July 2025 (UTC)

We use scholarly consensus on Wikipedia. We also have claims from his descendants about them having an Albanian origin - so what predicament does that put us in? Botushali (talk) 22:38, 3 July 2025 (UTC)

Can you read my comment again: The speculation of his origins being from the east should be mentioned, and it should also be mentioned that historians see this not very probable. That's how wikipedia works. This is not the first time such thing being on wikipedia. Beshogur (talk) 23:01, 3 July 2025 (UTC)

As said above by many editors, the mythical narrative or speculation that you want to add is irrelevant for the article because it emerged in later times than Muhammad Ali's, and it is incompatible with the historical facts about him and with his own documented statements about his Albanian background. – Βατο (talk) 07:41, 4 July 2025 (UTC)

Okay let's totally ignore what his sons says. This is basically censorship at this point. If properly sourced, this narrative, and saying that most historians don't see this probable is the correct way of editing, not censoring it. Beshogur (talk) 10:42, 4 July 2025 (UTC)

in his time the word Albania wasn't there you are saying that the french translator is Mehmet Ali?

How is this accepted this is not history.

Here is a page of the Ottoman book that was written by Mehmet Ali aid Mehmet Arif pasha were he says Ibrahim told him they are from konya it is the most primary source that was printed in the authors life 1873 so now you are claiming that primary sources that neither Fahmi or Marcaue read is not accepted you must be joking.

M.MehmetSerhan (talk) 16:17, 14 July 2025 (UTC)

No one has ever supported the Albanian myth in the reign of his Family.

He is actually my grandfather and what you claim about the family origin is not scholarly proven as there is Ibrahim Pasha statement printed in 1875 in his aide memoirs and no one ever got against it.

Even khaled Fahmy didn't know it because he can't read Ottoman turkish so what are you saying here is some Albanian myth.

When the man grew older he visited Kavala never visited Albania.

what is your justification. M.MehmetSerhan (talk) 16:29, 14 July 2025 (UTC)

We rely on relevant and reliable bibliography and there is a widespread consensus about Muhammad Ali's Albanian origins and the consensus does correspond to the actions of his descendants in the creation of the Albanian community of Egypt. Fuad I of Egypt (great-grandson of Muhammad Ali) even tried to become King of Albania.--Maleschreiber (talk) 21:03, 14 July 2025 (UTC)

Because they have Albanian ancestry? That's for sure. It's about paternal origins. Beshogur (talk) 15:20, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

He had Albanian paternal origin as well. He was an ethnic Albanian born in Albania, documented by himself. Other stories are myths that were created in subsequent generations, which, completely in contradiction with what he stated himself, have nothing to do with Muhammad Ali. – Βατο (talk) 18:36, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

Muhamad ali pasha’s early life

Proposing to add a note about muhamad ali’s kurdish origins In the late 18th century, in the rugged, mountainous region of Diyarbakır, a boy named Muhammad Ali was born into a family of Kurdish extraction. His family was part of the Ottoman military and administrative elite, a class of people whose lives were often defined by the needs of the sprawling empire. This was a time when identity was less about a single nation and more about loyalty to the Sultan and one's place within the Ottoman system. For reasons lost to time—perhaps a change in military assignment, a political shift, or an administrative transfer—his family was compelled to leave their home in Kurdistan. They journeyed west, settling in the port city of Kavala, located in modern-day Greece. Though they were Kurds by ancestry, they were now living and thriving in a region with a significant Albanian population. Muhammad Ali grew up in this new environment, learning to speak the language and immersing himself in the local culture. He became known not for his distant Kurdish heritage but for his present Albanian connections. He was a man of Kavala, a man among Albanians. As a young man, he was chosen to lead an Albanian contingent of the Ottoman army to Egypt. This was his great opportunity, and the men he commanded were from the community he had grown up with. It was in Egypt that Muhammad Ali's destiny unfolded, and his cunning and ambition led him to become the de facto ruler of the country. He never forgot his roots, but his identity was now complex, a mix of his distant Kurdish origins and his immediate Albanian upbringing. The dynasty he founded in Egypt would forever be associated with his name and his rise from a boy in a small port town to one of the most powerful figures of the 19th century.

Source: An interview with Prince Muhammad Ali Pasha, published in the Egyptian newspaper Al-Musawwar, on November 25, 1949. While the mainstream view is that Muhammad Ali was of Albanian descent, some sources and family accounts, such as an interview with his descendant Prince Muhammad Ali, suggest a Kurdish origin from Diyarbakir

This is not a reliable source by Wikipedia standards. Also, it is not written in an encyclopedic style. Zero^talk 08:34, 27 September 2025 (UTC)

He wasn’t Albanian, his origins are disputed.

"There is no definitive information about the origin of his family. Although some historians claim that he was of Albanian descent, a document written by his son İbrâhim Pasha clearly states that Mehmed Ali’s father, İbrâhim Ağa, and his grandfather, Osman Ağa, migrated from Konya to Kavala due to a blood feud." Sryccl (talk) 10:40, 7 December 2025 (UTC)