Talk:Meditation

Expectations

@Foristslow: regarding your additions to the lead diff very much at the core of the principles of meditation, find a source for something so intrinsic to the practice, which added:

while not having expectations (Non-striving) or [judging the meditation process itself.]

References

• WP:LEAD summarizes the article; this is not in the body. First update the body, then adjust the lead, especially when the text is about the definition, which has been carefully balanced;
• please add pagenumbers too, not just whole books;
• Kabat-Zinn, Jon (2013). Full Catastrophe Living: Using the Wisdom of Your Body and Mind to Face Stress, Pain, and Illness. New York: Bantam Books. ISBN 978-0-345-53693-7. {{cite book}}: Check |isbn= value: checksum (help)CS1 maint: publisher location (link) - no pagenumber;
• Parsons, Claire E. (2024-06-11). "Playfulness Is the Best Attitude for Meditation - brilliantlegalmind.com". brilliantlegalmind.com. Retrieved 2026-06-20. - says "letting go of expectations", not "not having expectations; but is this website WP:RS?
• Kasimow, Harold; Keenan, Linda Klepinger; Keenan, John P.; Miles, Jack (2003). Beside Still Waters: Jews, Christians, and the Way of the Buddha. Somerville: Wisdom Publications. ISBN 978-0-86171-903-7. - no pagenumber, no specific chapter or author.

If you look at Meditation#Scholarly definitions, you'll see no mention of 'no expectations' or 'letting go of expecttations; if anything, it would fall under "logic relaxation" or "suspension of logical thought processes". So, what's new, and where exactly is it stated in those two books? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 12:33, 20 June 2026 (UTC) Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 12:33, 20 June 2026 (UTC)

NB: Bond et al. (2009) do state "not 'to intend' to create any type of expectation regarding the process". But that's about not creating expectations, and not "not having expectations". And it's a factor of "logic relaxation", not a separate factor. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 12:41, 20 June 2026 (UTC)

As editors it is my feeling is we need to try to be mindful and put it in everyday terms that is useful for the everyday reader. Expectations and judgement are different sides of the coin "Hope", as you can see as a explanation this makes sense but you will not find this in any academic text. Not to be rude but you seem to see fit to do sweeping edits on page's without getting input from other editors on page and were seen fit change the context of a page to suit your intentions without reference of citations.🙏🏼 Foristslow (talk) 22:11, 20 June 2026 (UTC)

And a little down the page under "Adverse effects" that i as a on page editor that had a considerable input to this section this was included.

Meditation may induce "challenging" and "unwanted" experiences, and adverse effects to physical and mental health. Some of these experiences and effects are documented in the contemplative traditions, but can be quite perplexing and burdensome when the outcomes of meditation are "expected" to result in more advantageous and beneficial health outcomes than detrimental ones

On a side not I think that when editors are trying to express medical terminology it is best that someone that has a background in the subject present this on page for clarity for the reader, for example listing symptomology, eatimology and pathogenesis in terms that are legible to a more informed reader. Foristslow (talk) 22:26, 20 June 2026 (UTC)

And now the pagenumbers, please? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 01:16, 21 June 2026 (UTC)

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4383597/

Follow the link please, this is probably a better resource. Hope this helps you here is a exert from the paper “Defined technique” denotes a describable set of instructions; “logic relaxation” refers to a lack of “intent” to analyze, judge, or create expectations regarding the practice. Thanks for all your time 🙏🏼Foristslow (talk) 08:59, 21 June 2026 (UTC)

Jain at al. (2015) refer to Bond et al. (2007, which has the same note on 'logical relaxation' as Bond et al. (2009). Ergo, Jain et al. (2015) adds nothing new or different. Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 17:16, 21 June 2026 (UTC)

Thankyou Joshua, that is great if the reference is already made, and now the explanation, is now more true to the reference or note. Thankyou Foristslow (talk) 23:40, 21 June 2026 (UTC)

Qigong

@Joshua Jonathan: regarding your edit to the top image to the Meditation page. The jpeg is kirti qigong, It is best to make it general in nature so I have directed to the general Qigong page as there are many forms and traditions of Medical Qigong. Thankyou Foristslow (talk) 13:01, 23 June 2026 (UTC)

Then shouldn't we remove "Taoist"? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 18:03, 23 June 2026 (UTC)

Thank you Jonathan i understand your frustration, There are many styles of Qigong created through many historical events in China including familial or state organised line's, all having contemplative, mindfulness, meditation based cultivation. Best to honour the intersectionality of them all under one general term, that being Qigong in a lead image. Hope you find this informative. Foristslow (talk) 21:49, 23 June 2026 (UTC)

Removal of sources from the “Effects” section

@Zefr: Hi Zefr, I noticed that you removed the sentences concerning recent methodological developments in meditation research, along with several supporting review articles. I understand your concern regarding the Biomedicines source, but I was wondering about the reason for removing the other sources and the statements themselves.

The statements were supported by several review articles, including Goldberg et al. (2022), a systematic review of 44 meta-analyses of randomized controlled trials published in Perspectives on Psychological Science, and Kraemer et al. (2022), a review published in Seminars in Neurology by Thieme. Pascoe et al. (2017), a systematic review and meta-analysis published in the Journal of Psychiatric Research, was also cited.

Could you clarify which part of the statements you consider to be opinion rather than a summary of the cited research? I would be happy to adjust the wording if necessary.

Nandinik (talk) 20:45, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

Hello Nandinik - both removed sentences impressed as opinions which the sources state require higher quality studies and further evidence. Overall, there was an issue of WP:OVERCITE for weak statements.

The Goldberg source is used in the lede, the Kraemer source is in a low impact journal, and the Pascoe source is 9 years out of date, WP:MEDDATE. Zefr (talk) 22:16, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying. Regarding Goldberg et al. (2022), my intention was not to suggest that the methodological limitations of meditation research have been resolved, but simply to note the increased use of methodological safeguards such as randomized controlled trials and active control groups. Anyway, since this information is already covered in the lead, I am happy to leave it there.

Best wishes,

Nandinik (talk) 01:23, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

Adverse effects

Olga Khazan, The Dark Side of Mindfulness, The Atlantic, mentions extensive research by Willoughby Britton. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:09, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

Hello Joshua Jonathan: This Atlantic article relies heavily on anecdotal evidence and tends to sensationalize some of the issues it discusses. It also cites only a handful of primary studies, several of which have significant methodological limitations, such as biased samples, the absence of control groups, non-randomized designs, and low study-completion rates. It is also important to note that there are well-conducted studies that have found no evidence of harm from meditation. Some researchers have even found that mindfulness meditation can be protective against multiple indices of harm. See for example, the articles below. I think this evidence should also be incorporated into this Meditation article:

Hirshberg, Matthew J.; Goldberg, Simon B.; Rosenkranz, Melissa; Davidson, Richard J. (April 2022). "Prevalence of harm in mindfulness-based stress reduction". Psychological Medicine. 52 (6): 1080–1088.

Burgess, Diana J; et al., (2024). "Do mindfulness interventions cause harm? Findings from the Learning to Apply Mindfulness to Pain (LAMP) Pragmatic Clinical Trial". Pain Medicine. 25 (Supplement_1): S68–S76.

Goldberg, S. B., Simonsson, O., Warren, F. C., Pustejovsky, J. E., Hirshberg, M. J., Sun, S., ... & Kuyken, W. (2026). Symptom Worsening in Mindfulness-Based Cognitive Therapy. JAMA Network Open, 9(8), e2629946.

Hadash, Yuval; Veksler, Tatyana; Dar, Omer; Oren-Schwartz, Romi; Bernstein, Amit (April 2024). "Peak experiences during insight mindfulness meditation retreats and their salutary and adverse impact: A prospective matched-controlled intervention study". Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology. 92 (4): 213–225.

Nandinik (talk) 15:15, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Intro to Psychology

This article is currently the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation–supported course assignment, between 3 September 2026 and 22 December 2026. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Kk5496 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Kk5496 (talk) 18:13, 23 September 2026 (UTC)