Talk:Leifsbudir

Equating Leifsbudir with L'Anse aux Meadows

The article states, "Leifsbudir is now believed to have been located at L'Anse aux Meadows in Newfoundland." Can anyone give a reference for this? From what I've read, most scholars believe Liefsbudir was south of the L'Anse aux Meadows site. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aardvark92 (talk • contribs) 14:55, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

You are correct... most researchers believe Leifsbudir was farther south. The article needs a rewrite. Rockawaypoint (talk) 19:26, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Regardless of what "most scholars believe", it is all just speculation without any verifiable data to support it, one way or the other. Mediatech492 (talk) 07:51, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Do you take a position about the location of "Leifsbudir" on a modern map, or the location of Vinland in general? Rockawaypoint (talk) 14:02, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

There is no position that can be taken on the subject, since there is no extant evidence on which to make a definitive statement. Mediatech492 (talk) 16:45, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

I have to take a position that sits on the side with many credible researchers who believe there IS quite a bit of evidence that firmly supports southern New England as the only region that matches the picture of Vinland in the two sagas... after acknowledging there is NO concrete 'proof'. Evidence comes from saga reports of Vinland's climate; sun position in the dead of winter: reports of wild grapes, geographic details, & navigation details. Evidence and proof are not the same. Would you recognize that there is a consensus among researchers who have published 'Vinland studies' that the 'evidence' points to southern New England as Vinland,... rather than Newfoundland or New Brunswick or Nova Scotia? Rockawaypoint (talk) 17:27, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with having an opinion on the subject, but opinions are not facts. We cannot make a definitive statement based on POV, no matter how many "qualifications" the opinion holders may have. Mediatech492 (talk) 18:35, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

There is a consensus in the Vinland debate. Scientific consensus - Wikipedia

and it does not support L'anse aux Meadows as Leifsbudir. The article should report that. For example Dr Stuart Brown wrote about L'Anse aux Meadows;

"...However, the much more specific description in the Greenland saga of the location of the Vinland settlement of Leifsbudir is plainly inconsistent with the setting of L'Anse aux Meadows. I leave aside the much-discussed and presently irresoluble issue of the grapes and vines which gave the land its name and note the reference that the shallows in which the longboat ran aground were so extensive that at low tide it was dif�ficult to see the sea from the boat. At high tide, Leif's men were able to refloat their vessel, bring it up a river and anchor in a lake. Scientific investigations suggest that the sea level in Epaves Bay at the time of the settlement was perhaps half to one metre higher than today which would make the shallows less extensive than they are at present and there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Black Duck Brook could ever accommodate any craft, no matter how shallow its draft, bigger than a dinghy, if even that!.."

...Dr. lngstad's Procrustean attempt to demonstrate that L'Anse aux Meadows is Leifsbudir is wholly unconvincing..."

Newfoundland Quarterly, Fall, 1988

Pages 40-41

Review by Stuart C. Brown, Memorial University, St Johns, Newfoundland

"The Norse Discovery of America, Vol. 2: The Historical Background

and the Evidence of the Norse Settlement Discovered in Newfoundland." Helge lngstad, Oslo: Norwegian University Press

1985; $103.25, cloth

https://dai.mun.ca/.../TheNewfoundlandQuarterlyvolume84no...

".. Rockawaypoint (talk) 18:55, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Scientific consensus is the generally held judgment, position, and opinion of the majority or the supermajority of scientists in a particular field of study at any particular time."

"Consensus is achieved through scholarly communication at conferences, the publication process, replication of reproducible results by others, scholarly debate, and peer review."

Magnusson and Palsson in 1965 reported, - "...Every one pf the theories put forward has had to disregard one or more inconsistencies between the two sagas or even within the sagas themselves; but, generally speaking, the most acceptable interpretation of the elusive information in the sagas suggests that Vinland was somewhere in the New England region, and the majority of scholars have inclined to this view."

This statement by Magnusson and Palsson is still the case today. Key point is that a "...majority of scholars..." do favor New England over other locations. The existence of a consensus is very clear.

Hermann Pálsson - Wikipedia

Magnus Magnusson - Wikipedia

"The Vinland sagas : the Norse discovery of America" : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive Rockawaypoint (talk) 04:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

But we can't refer to "long standing resistance among academics'" - that is both original research and only one academic is quoted. Doug Weller talk 14:47, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

So what do you recommend would be the proper way to post on Wikipedia Birgitta Wallace's statement from 1986 saying it was "...impossible to equate northern Newfoundland with Vinland," and not having it deleted? It is an important and interesting statement wouldn't you agree? Many other researchers do not accept L'Anse aux Meadows as a site in Vinland. Graeme Davis has said, ["Vikings in America", 2009, page 77,] - "The northern tip of Newfoundland does not resemble the saga description of a fertile Vinland, ...Nothing about L'Anse aux Meadows fits the description of Leifsbudir." Rockawaypoint (talk) 16:02, 30 December 2024 (UTC)