Talk:Lalla Ruqaya

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Amrani family

Latest comment: 5 months ago4 comments2 people in discussion

According to a number of sources (including ones within the article), Lalla Ruqaya was a concubine of Circassian origin.^[1]^[2]^[3]^[4]^[5]^[6]^[7]

I am struggling to find any that explicitly describes her as member of the Amrani family (not one that potentially implies it) or even one that refer to her as "Lalla Ruqaya Al Amrani". This article being called "Lalla Ruqaya Al Amrani" seems more like original research than fact Mayouhm (talk) 17:10, 18 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

@AvaBrandon2000 See this please. The sources you cite are not good enough as they do not explicitly talk about Lalla Ruqayya. Instead they mention an uncle (not necessarily biological) of Abd al-Aziz with the nisba al-Amrani. This is not definitive especially when compared to numerous cited sources that describe her as a Circassian concubine. The sources you cite do not even seem to call her "Lalla Ruqaya al-Amrani" so this is clearly original research done through synthesis. Mayouhm (talk) 23:13, 26 February 2026 (UTC)Reply

@Mayouhm the fact that this man is his uncle is a clear proof his mom is not a concubine. and there is no such adoptions in islam lol. in sharia the adopted son never state the brother of his adopted mother as his uncle. it's a fact IDs of women under her circumstances (very secluded life, no public ID, no pictures, cultural barrier ect) are all intox. the sources i state are clear and a huge turning point in completing her profil. so stop deciding on her concubine ID it's so common to have intox comming from sources describing mothers of sultans in morocco. the same intox existed by the way on the mother of hassan II, lalla abla, the "sourced infos" said she was a black slave gifted by the glaoui to mohammed v. turns out she is an alaoui princess and his cousin. same for lalla ruqaya she's a moroccan sharifa (lamrani are sharifs). the sources i find are literally gold dust for profils like hers. and this is what you have to understand about biographies of such secluded women; their biographies are always build throught a gradual connection of disparate parts of their identity through scarce sourced materials as those i was able to find, it doesn't function like muslim men biographies.AvaBrandon2000 (talk) AvaBrandon2000 (talk) 17:02, 28 February 2026 (UTC)Reply

The same source states "Moulay Abdel Aziz âge de 14 ans, était bien jeune pour assurer une tâche aussi lourde. Ba H'mmad, le grand Vizir, a joué un rôle déterminant à sa désignation puisqu'il était en relation. avec la mère de ce dernier Lalla Rekia (esclave circassienne)". So even the one "reference" that suggests otherwise, actually affirms what the vast majority of sources say. Do you have a single source that either a) refers to her as "Ruqaya al-Amrani" or b) explicitly says she belonged to the Amrani family?

Your reasoning is textbook original research and while your theories are interesting, it is not appropriate for Wikipedia. Pretty much any source, including the ones you cited when creating this page describe her as a Circassian concubine. I recommend you read Wikipedia's guidelines on verifiability and reliable sources Mayouhm (talk) 17:17, 28 February 2026 (UTC)Reply

References

↑ Dieste, Josep Lluís Mateo (2023-12-18). Remembering the Tatas: Domestic Women and Slavery in Tetouan (19th - 20th centuries). Brill. pp. 84, 99–100. ISBN 978-90-04-68161-3. Hajj Lʿarbi Bricha provided two Circassian slaves to Sultan Muley Hasan I. They were Nur al-Shams, known as Rqya, and Amina, mothers of the future Sultans Muley ʿAbdelaziz and Muley Yusuf respectively... [Of] the Circassian Habasia, whose official name was Lala Rkia
↑ Marfaing, Laurence; Germany), Zentrum Moderner Orient (Berlin (2004). Les relations transsahariennes à l'époque contemporaine: un espace en constante mutation (in French). KARTHALA Editions. ISBN 978-2-84586-475-7. Notamment les esclaves circassiennes (khadem sriksiya), véritable aristocratie des esclaves tout comme les khadem habashiyya (originaires d'Abyssinie). La concubine préférée du sultan Moulay el Hassan 1", lalla Rkia, mère du sultan Moulay Abd el Aziz, morte en 1902, était une esclave circassienne.
↑ Hamel, Chouki El (2013). Black Morocco: A History of Slavery, Race, and Islam. Cambridge University Press. p. 237. ISBN 978-1-107-02577-6. His position as chamberlain and educator of the prince granted him a special connection to the prince's Circassian mother, Lalla Ruqayya, who was queen of the palace.
↑ Mateo Dieste, Josep Lluís (2024-06-27). "Mercy Releases: Manumission Practices in Tetouan, Morocco (1860–1960)". In Andreeva, Elena; McNeer, Kevin (eds.). Slavery in the Modern Middle East and North Africa: Exploitation and Resistance from the 19th Century - Present Day. Bloomsbury Academic. p. 119. ISBN 978-0-7556-4793-4. Some of the most powerful families in the city were those with strong ties to the makhzan and who worked as customs administrators or merchants, as in the case of Erzini in Gibraltar, or La'arbi Bricha, who provided two Circassian slaves to Sultan Mawlay Hasan I, mothers of the future sultans Mawlay 'Abd al-'Aziz and Mawlay Yusuf.
↑ Burke III, Edmund (2009-02-15). Prelude to Protectorate in Morocco: Pre-Colonial Protest and Resistance, 1860-1912. University of Chicago Press. p. 47. ISBN 978-0-226-08084-0. When 'Abd al-'Aziz came into his majority in 1900 upon the death of the regent, he was only nineteen years old and had spent most of his young life within the confines of the royal harem. His mother was Lalla Raqīya, a beautiful and intelligent Circassian slave woman who had been the favorite wife of Mawlay al-Hasan during the last years of his life. She had originally joined forces with Ba Aḥmad to insure the proclamation of her son and continued to have considerable influence over his decisions until her own death in 1902.
↑ Le Tourneau, Roger (1960). "ʿAbd al-Azīz b. al-Ḥasan". In Gibb, H. A. R.; Kramers, J. H.; Lévi-Provençal, E.; Schacht, J.; Lewis, B. & Pellat, Ch. (eds.). The Encyclopaedia of Islam, Second Edition. Volume I: A–B. Leiden: E. J. Brill. doi:10.1163/1573-3912_islam_SIM_0075. OCLC 495469456. "He was born... of the sultan Mawlāy al-Ḥasan and Lālla Ruḳayya, of Circassian origin."
↑ Aubin, Eugène (2004). Le Maroc dans la tourmente: 1902-1903 (in French). Eddif. p. 162. ISBN 978-9981-896-48-2. Le sultan qui revêt, à l'heure actuelle, un pouvoir manifesté d'aussi extraordinaire façon, est un jeune homme d'une vingtaine d'années. Il est un fils cadet du défunt sultan Moulay el-Hassan et d'une esclave circassienne, ame- née de Constantinople, Lalla Reqia.

[1] Dieste, Josep Lluís Mateo (2023-12-18). Remembering the Tatas: Domestic Women and Slavery in Tetouan (19th - 20th centuries). Brill. pp. 84, 99–100. ISBN 978-90-04-68161-3. Hajj Lʿarbi Bricha provided two Circassian slaves to Sultan Muley Hasan I. They were Nur al-Shams, known as Rqya, and Amina, mothers of the future Sultans Muley ʿAbdelaziz and Muley Yusuf respectively... [Of] the Circassian Habasia, whose official name was Lala Rkia

[2] Marfaing, Laurence; Germany), Zentrum Moderner Orient (Berlin (2004). Les relations transsahariennes à l'époque contemporaine: un espace en constante mutation (in French). KARTHALA Editions. ISBN 978-2-84586-475-7. Notamment les esclaves circassiennes (khadem sriksiya), véritable aristocratie des esclaves tout comme les khadem habashiyya (originaires d'Abyssinie). La concubine préférée du sultan Moulay el Hassan 1", lalla Rkia, mère du sultan Moulay Abd el Aziz, morte en 1902, était une esclave circassienne.

[3] Hamel, Chouki El (2013). Black Morocco: A History of Slavery, Race, and Islam. Cambridge University Press. p. 237. ISBN 978-1-107-02577-6. His position as chamberlain and educator of the prince granted him a special connection to the prince's Circassian mother, Lalla Ruqayya, who was queen of the palace.

[4] Mateo Dieste, Josep Lluís (2024-06-27). "Mercy Releases: Manumission Practices in Tetouan, Morocco (1860–1960)". In Andreeva, Elena; McNeer, Kevin (eds.). Slavery in the Modern Middle East and North Africa: Exploitation and Resistance from the 19th Century - Present Day. Bloomsbury Academic. p. 119. ISBN 978-0-7556-4793-4. Some of the most powerful families in the city were those with strong ties to the makhzan and who worked as customs administrators or merchants, as in the case of Erzini in Gibraltar, or La'arbi Bricha, who provided two Circassian slaves to Sultan Mawlay Hasan I, mothers of the future sultans Mawlay 'Abd al-'Aziz and Mawlay Yusuf.

[5] Burke III, Edmund (2009-02-15). Prelude to Protectorate in Morocco: Pre-Colonial Protest and Resistance, 1860-1912. University of Chicago Press. p. 47. ISBN 978-0-226-08084-0. When 'Abd al-'Aziz came into his majority in 1900 upon the death of the regent, he was only nineteen years old and had spent most of his young life within the confines of the royal harem. His mother was Lalla Raqīya, a beautiful and intelligent Circassian slave woman who had been the favorite wife of Mawlay al-Hasan during the last years of his life. She had originally joined forces with Ba Aḥmad to insure the proclamation of her son and continued to have considerable influence over his decisions until her own death in 1902.

[6] Le Tourneau, Roger (1960). "ʿAbd al-Azīz b. al-Ḥasan". In Gibb, H. A. R.; Kramers, J. H.; Lévi-Provençal, E.; Schacht, J.; Lewis, B. & Pellat, Ch. (eds.). The Encyclopaedia of Islam, Second Edition. Volume I: A–B. Leiden: E. J. Brill. doi:10.1163/1573-3912_islam_SIM_0075. OCLC 495469456. "He was born... of the sultan Mawlāy al-Ḥasan and Lālla Ruḳayya, of Circassian origin."

[7] Aubin, Eugène (2004). Le Maroc dans la tourmente: 1902-1903 (in French). Eddif. p. 162. ISBN 978-9981-896-48-2. Le sultan qui revêt, à l'heure actuelle, un pouvoir manifesté d'aussi extraordinaire façon, est un jeune homme d'une vingtaine d'années. Il est un fils cadet du défunt sultan Moulay el-Hassan et d'une esclave circassienne, ame- née de Constantinople, Lalla Reqia.

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Amrani family