Talk:Lak (tribe)

Shadegan

Is a troll with a lot of time on his hands. His anti-Kurdish propaganda is clear as day-light. He clearly has a hate towards Kurds and the separatist Kurdish movement. What he doesn't realize is that all Kurds in Iran are not separatists. Laks are Kurd! Go on youtube and listen to any Laki song. They're Kurd. You won't find any of the Lak artists who identify as Lurs, none. The Laki language is Kurdi! I bet you don't even speak Laki to know. Google Lak Amir, he's a Lak poet. Look at the poems he's written about his Kurdish roots.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble Shadegan, Laks are not Lur, they're Kurd. Lurs and Laks and Kurds made clear distinctions about a 1,000 years ago. This is documented. It's documented that Zand people the first original Lak tribes identified as Kurds in their writings and culture. There is a museum in Iran just south of Harsin about Laki people. If you go there maybe you can educate yourself.

Laks are not Lur

I'm Lak from Nurabad Lorestan. I've never met a Lak who has identified himself has Lur. Most Laks that live in the region of Lakestan which is prominently (99.9%) Lak, from Chemchamal to Bistun to Harsin to Nurabad and West towards Jalalavand and Kuhdesht identify themselves as Kurd. Our language, if you know Laki language, is almost 100% Kurdi. The only difference is, is that we put "m" in front of some verbs, not even all verbs just some of them. And that's honestly the only difference between any of the other Kurdish dialects around Kermanshah and Ilam and Laki. For example, most of the other Kurdish tribes say "Atwam, Achem, Akhem, Ari, etc." Laks say "Matwam, Machem, Mahkhem, Mari" Everything else is 100% Kurdi. I've grown up in Nurabad we had a small Lur population because Nurabad is a mostly Lak city. The Laks and Lur families definitely spoke different. I don't understand Luri very much. Si chi means because or why, and most of their language is a slight dialect of farsi. But Laks for example say "arrah" for because, and all the other Kurdish tribes also say "arrah" So exactly how are Laks Lur? My mother is a Lak from Kermanshah city in the province of Kermanshah and they are also similar in language and culture. We don't wear Luri clothes, our dances are not Luri, our weddings are not like the Lurs, our traditional clothing is not like the Lurs. But our traditional clothing, weddings, and dances are like all the other Kurd tribes. I have pictures of my great, grand father and they are wearing traditional Kurdish clothes even back then. I also have a copy of an old book where they've written down my families lineage from several generations back and we've come from Kurdish roots not any part of our ancestry has a Lur family name.

Izadpanah

Izadpanah in the new version of his book says that "Laki is more related to Kurdish than Luri"--70.120.172.189 (talk) 18:37, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

the student's thesis

Co'mon people please do not put info without a citation as somebody did here in this article. I think all info without a citation should be deleted. And Please do not give a student's tehesis as a reference as somebody did it here with Mr. Anonby, Erik John's student thesis. It is not fair. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.182.8.187 (talk) 22:41, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

You are right. Who is Erik John Anonby?--Gomada (talk) 20:03, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Here is Encyclopedia

Dear users and editors Due to their voracious appetite to make propaganda about the so-called Great Kurdistan and unfortunately impalpable and pale presence of Lurish users, some Kurdish users recently have began significant sabotages and distorting realities to expand their territory even by fake comments and edits. I hope you being able to study or read the Persian editions of these pages (Laki dialect and Lak people of Iran). My edits only is an effort to prevent their counterfeit actions. During my edits I have pointed out to valid and authentic references.--Shadegan (talk) 13:09, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Look at this anti-Kurdish crap. This is obvious propoganda ^^^ How does Wikipedia allow for this.

POV-push and reliability of sources

Hello, please look at this and this edits of user:Shadegan. It's important to look at sources. For example, the user:Shadegan added , Erik John Anonby as a so-called source which supports Laki belongs to Luri language. But if you read pages 19 and 20, you can see a comparison of Pish-e Kuh Laki with Kurdish and Luri. After that the author says: Pish-e Kuh Laki is aligned with Kurdish rather than Luri. This is distortion of information. User:Shadegan is also adding some persian sources which can not be checked/proved. Thanks.--Gomada (talk) 14:07, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Another falsifying from User:Shadegan. The source says:Fayli (Faylee, Faili, or Feli) Kurds are, as their name tells, an inseparable segment of the Kurdish population in Iraq and an integral part of the Kurdish nation, which is divided among many countries in the Middle East, mainly Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey. Fayli Kurds have themselves shown, over the years, and still show this fact and reality by words and deeds. They speak a dialect that belongs to the southern Kurdish dialect called Luri which is spoken in the southern areas of Kurdistan proper, particularly on both sides of the border areas between Iraq and Iran. And the user:Shadegan is using this source as a proof of so called Lur identity. Who will stop this vandalism?--Gomada (talk) 11:41, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

POV-push and Large-scale vandalism effort by user: Gomada

As it was asked by English Wikipedia administrators, I provided some authentic and valid references for Lurish Identity of Feyli Lurs in two edited pages. As you can see in the history of these pages the user User:Gomada has changed and removed these logical and authentic edits. As an old user of Wikipedia I think some users have imagined and counted this invaluable and useful encyclopedia as a farce and mischief area to distort the realities and promote their ethnocentric and ambitious aims. I hope Wikipedia adminstrators and other realistic users help to stop and prevent such inappropriate vandalism efforts.--Shadegan (talk) 13:50, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

There is no such valid evidence for dreaming up the term Feyli Lurs. I've never in my life hear such nonsense. This is just the same anti-Kurdish propaganda from these users who hate the Kurds because of their separatist sentiments. Politics aside. Feyli's and Laks are not Lur. Nor by culture nor by tradition, nor by language. This is absolute rubbish.

ok

Requested move 17 August 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved per consensus and argument by nominator (non-admin closure) Megan Barris (Lets talk📧) 12:49, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

---

Laks (Iran) → Lak (tribe) – Most Kurdish tribes titles on Wikipedia are in singular and its a bit misleading to have country mentioned when there are also Lak tribal members in both Turkey and Iraq, as mentioned in the article. Laki could also have been a possibility but I went with the name Iranica uses. Semsûrî (talk) 07:59, 17 August 2020 (UTC)—Relisting. Megan Barris (Lets talk📧) 11:42, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 03:39, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Iranica refrains from calling them a Kurdish tribe

For the record. The Iranica entry cites a plethora of sources and arguments that have mentioned the Laks in one way or another. The entry itself, interestingly, clearly refrains from calling them a Kurdish tribe.

LAK (or Lakk), an ethnic term used for a large number of people residing in a vast part of present-day Iran. The original meaning of the word in Persian, “hundred thousands,” apparently refers to the original number of families that constituted a nomadic tribal confederation (...) The first reference to the Lak is found in the Šaraf-nāma, the first history of Kurdistan, by Amir Šaraf-al-Din Khan Bedlisi (d. 1012/1603-04), in which the name Lak is the first one wherever are mentioned the names of the Kurds of Iran (e.g., Bedlisi, pp. 418, 424). It is cited together with the Zand, which is regarded as one of the most important Lak tribes. (...) From a cultural point of view, the Lak are very close to their neighbors and have sometimes been confused with them, especially with the Lors in their southern and eastern environs. (...)

The main ethnic marker of the Lak is their language called “Laki.” On the basis of the linguistic fieldwork made by the German linguist Oskar Mann, Vladimir Minorsky mentioned the Lak as “the most southern group of Kurd tribes of Persia” (Minorky, “Lak,” p. 616). After field research made by Oskar Mann, there remained until recently no doubt about the nature of the Laki language. After the death of Oskar Mann, Karl Hadank continued to work on the material collected by him. Both of these linguists declared that Laki was related to Kurdish and different from Lori. Since then, all linguists and other scholars consider Laki to be included in the Northwest group of Iranian language and include Lori among the Southwest group of Iranian languages. It has been only recently that some linguists, on the basis of a new scientific approach, have begun to have doubt about this kind of classifications in general. Moreover, Oskar Mann had rightly found that the difference between Laki and other southern Kurdish dialects to be only minor (“nur unwesentlich”; Mann, p. xxiii). Therefore, he puts Laki along with other south Kurdish dialects under the general rubric “Laki” (Mann, p. xxvii). What is more, in a list compiled by J. L. Rousseau at Kermanshah in 1807, several south Kurdish tribes like the Kalhor, Māfi, Ṣufiwand, Karkuʾi, Jalilvand, and Kolyāʾi have been classified among the Laki tribes (Rousseau, pp. 85-98).

Yet, in spite of all this, the entry has been used as a reference to support the statement that they are full-blown Kurds. - LouisAragon (talk) 13:17, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

The author of the piece M. Reza Hamzehʼee does use the term Laki Kurds in another work of his so I guess he refrains from doing so in the Iranica piece for whatever reason. But I agree that the reference is perhaps not the best in this context. --Semsûrî (talk) 14:16, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for your response. I have removed it from the lede per failed WP:VER. - LouisAragon (talk) 20:04, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 April 2021

Please add back the Jalalvand Tribe. They are a very large tribe with 92 villages in Jalalvand region of Kermanshah. There is an entire region called Jalalvand in Kermanshah district. Also, the Jalilvand tribe and Jalalvand tribe are distinct tribes. So when adding Jalalvand back to the list (as it used to be on the list), please do not remove Jalilvand from the list. DinavarKermanshah (talk) 05:53, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Jalalvand is already on the list as Jalilvand, I've changed the name. --Semsûrî (talk) 11:27, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Semsûrî. Jalalvand and Jalilvand are two different families or subtribes of the Lak tribe. That is what we are telling you. I appreciate your contribution to this page thus far, but you must realize that these are two different tribes. Jalalvandis are from the Jalalvand region near Eslamabad city in Western Kermanshah and are an older subtribe. On the other-hand, the Jalilvand clan was formed in Shiraz more recently by the Laks who travelled there with Karim Khan Zand. Some of them stayed in Shiraz, and so now Jalilvand is a prominent surname in Shiraz. They were dispersed during their return back to their homelands in Lorestan and Kermanshah. They have villages all over Lorestan, Kermanshah, Hamedan, Karaj, Khorasan, Qazvin, Gilan, and Azerbaijan, due to re-location campaigns lead by various rulers after Karim Khan Zand's demise.

For the last 100 plus years, they have been particularly associated with the connected Dinaavar-Chemchamal-Bistun regions of Kermanshah in Sahne and Harsin counties in eastern Kermanshah. They are the most prominent Lak tribe in Dinavaar county in Sahne. They are also relevant in western Kermanshah near Eslamabad and Kerend-e Gharb, north of the Jalalvand region. And they are also very prominent in Tuyserkan, Hamedan. They are perhaps the most scattered Lak subtribe. There are villages called Jalilvand all across "Lakestan." --Lakestan (talk) 06:52, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Fouladvand, Baharvand and Pap tribes

These tribes are not of Laki origin, neither do they identify as Laks. Fouladvands are Bakhtiaris, Papi and Baharvand are Lor-e Koochak, yet somehow this wiki page decides to label them as Laki Kurds.

Interestingly, the source provided to claim these tribes as Lak is a broken link. As a Lor myself, I am perfectly happy to call Laks Kurds and accept that Laks are not Lurs. There is however a limit; Laks do not have the right to claim Luri tribes as Kurdi.

For the time being, I cannot find any sources from Papis and Baharvands themselves (although Iranica is very clear that both are Lor-e Koochak, and this isn't some sort of secret either), however the Fouladvands have written their own book about their history.

http://yaftenews.ir/introduction/book-introduction/7786-fooladvand.html

Here it is. Rectify this at once.

I assume they are mentioned in the Shahokhabar reference (now archived) as Laki. It would be easier if you had reliable references to counter this. "For the time being, I cannot find any sources from Papis and Baharvands themselves" is not good enough. Also read how Wikipedia works (i.e. RS) instead of going on a racist rant. --Semsûrî (talk) 01:26, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

And shortly afterwards, this happens. Mako001 (C)  (T) _{^{(The Alternate Mako)}} 15:40, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Remove HistoryOfIran from this article

The account "HistoryOfIran" must be barred from this page. Over the past decade, HistoryOfIran has contributed nothing constructive, only adding inaccurate and inconsistent information from weak sources. Sources that sometimes do not even support the idea or statistics that HistoryOfIran is claiming. HistoryOfIran has no knowledge or familiarity related to this article, HistoryOfIran's only reason for being here is to promote a supremest Persian narrative that feels threatened by non-Persian particularly Kurdish influences in Iranian history. Beyond this particular article, among articles like this, HistoryOfIran's efforts are consistently aimed in one direction and that is to minimize Kurdish influence in Iranian history and society as much as possible. In this particular article, HistoryOfIran has no subject matter knowledge related to this article, their presence here is merely a nuisance and a source of inaccuracies. Lakestan (talk) 19:43, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

I haven't edited this article since August 2023, and I don't think we have communicated in years - am I that rent free in your head? If you think I am disruptive, report me to WP:ANI. Next time you throw WP:ASPERSIONS at me, I'll take you there myself. HistoryofIran (talk) 20:01, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 February 2025

5.123.85.250 (talk) 23:20, 5 February 2025 (UTC)
law UN

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Aydoh8^[contribs] 23:47, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

laks arent kurd

big part of laks are in luristan and they belive lor identity besides this a authentic evidences say the laks are a part of Lors like Karim khan zand and the genesis of laks cirrespondence to Lors TiyamFDFDmm (talk) 12:24, 24 February 2025 (UTC) and in persian we have national proof that substantiation it. like Ali-Akbar Dehkhoda and there is no proof of khanin of laks say they are kourd . iranika say laks can be kord and dont say they are kord. beiranvand are the bigest eil of laks and they introduce themselves as lor like other lake ecxept Amirlaks of kermanshah.like Alireza briranvand --TiyamFDFDmm (talk) 12:46, 24 February 2025 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree. I’m Lak myself and have worked hard to push back against pan-Lur narratives that try to distort Lak identity for political or social agendas. Pan-Lurism has caused nothing but devestation to Lak language and cultural preservatrion, visibility, and attribution.

Despite discrimination, pressure, and attempts to impose a Lur identity, Laks in Luristan, especially in Delfan (Nurabad), Kuhdasht, Aleshtar, and Rumeshkan, have maintained a strong Lak identity and language where they form the majority. In places like Borujerd, Khorramabad, and Dorud, where Lurs are dominant and Laks have faced marginalization, many have distanced themselves from their language and identity to avoid abuse. Slowly this has become what you think you are seeing, some Laks identifying as Lur.

Regarding Karim Khan Zand, there’s no solid evidence that he identified as Lur. That claim largely comes from Qajar distortions and repeated mistakes in Western scholarship. The Zands were historically aligned with Lak tribes and often in conflict with Lur groups even before the dynasty came to power, this is backed by migration patterns, conflict records, and even traveler accounts where they denied being Lur.

So no, most Laks in Luristan do not identify as Lur, and where they do, it tends to be among those who have or are losing their language and identity. Also, you’re overlooking the three other major Lak provinces, plus the significant Lak enclave in Qazvin, where the Lur identity is absent entirely among Laks. Lakestan (talk) 17:20, 14 July 2025 (UTC)

Title and introduction change

The first issue with the title "Lak (tribe)" is that Laks are not a tribe but many tribal confederations. There is no tribe called Lak, its only in the region between Kirkuk and Hewler where Laks are considered one tribe. There is "Laks (Iran)" but that would also be inaccurate because some live outside Iran. The short description makes it seem like they all identify as Kurds, while in the article itself the Lur element was also exaggerated. There has been fighting about this article since it was written 10+ years ago and its easily fixable.

A better introduction would be "The Laks are a tribal people indigenous to western Iran. Their native language is Laki, a Northwestern Iranian language close to Kurdish. The Laks mainly live in Lorestan province, but also Kermanshah, Ilam, and Hamadan provinces in a historic region unofficially known as Lakestan, while there are also diaspora communities in other regions. Ethnically, they are divided between those who identify as Kurds, as Lurs, or as Laks only." Ilamxan (talk) 16:26, 30 March 2026 (UTC)

1. Encyclopædia Iranica clearly states that Lak is an ethnic term used for a large number of people residing in a vast part of present-day Iran and continues, from a cultural point of view, the Lak are very close to their neighbors and have sometimes been confused with them, especially with the Lors... In my opinion, the article should be renamed as Laks and the identity debates (Lor, Kurdish or people in their own right) should be presented in the article. Because Laks possess certain instruments that constitute an ethnic group (having their own language (the Lak language) and actively speaking it, the live in a defined geographical area, they have identifiable common cultural and traditional instruments, they share a common, longitudinal history, they are well-known by neighboring peoples etc.)
2. I saw that you claim that "there was full scholarly consensus that Luri was a Southwestern Iranic language while Kurdish was a Northwestern Iranic language." This is not true. There is no such a full consensus. While some classify Kurdish as northwestern Iranic, some others classify it as southwestern Iranic and some classify it as a dialect continuum between Southwestern-Northwestern. Even those who classify Kurdish as Northwestern Iranic state that it has very strong Southwestern Iranic characteristics. So the position of Kurdish is not well-established. And about the Laki, Glottolog clearly classifies the Laki language as a separate language, distinct from the three Kurdish dialects.
3. Jftr, this claim of you is also not true and not correct. Please, read reliable sources, verifiability, npov, or, balance and partisan again. There are is plenty of sources refute your this claim. Instead of trying to prove a point, we should produce encyclopedic content.
4. In my opinion, the lead might be like this: "The Laks are an Iranian people (iranica ref here) who speak Lak, an Iranian language belonging to the Indo-European language family (glotto ref here). Laks live primarily in western and ... Iran (ref here). They live in parts of ... Lorestan, Kermanshah, Ilam, Hamadan ... provinces of Iran (ref here). Laks are mainly Muslims and ... sect (ref here)...."

All of the debates on identity and language should be presented in the appropriate sections, not in the lead. The content should be objective and encyclopedic. Vuzorg (talk) 20:11, 30 March 2026 (UTC)

1. I'm fine with not mentioning Kurds and Lurs in the lead I only put both of them there to solve the long-term issues over it, otherwise I also think the lead shouldn't mention either of them because it'll be addressed in the identity section and the whole point of the article are the Laks. Similar to Persian Wikipedia.
2. I will remove the part about the position of Kurdish I was trying to explain that the main distinction of Kurdish from Luri was the Northwestern influence and I never claimed Laki was Kurdish I said it was distinct from Luri and closer to Kurdish also due to Northwestern influence but its relationship with Kurdish was debated. I will relook closely and remove disputed linguistic classifications because my point was linguistic identity.
3. I saw it when you mentioned it in my ANI after which I received my warning.
4. Fine with me.

Ilamxan (talk) 12:38, 31 March 2026 (UTC)

Minorsky worked with Kurdish writers

we cannot consider Minorsky's work reliable as he worked with 2 Kurdish writers. Laks are lors ~2026-24928-87 (talk) 19:50, 23 April 2026 (UTC)

Lead section

The Laks (Laki: لک) are an Iranian tribal people who speak Laki, an Iranian language which most scholars classified as Northwestern. The Lak homeland is a region called Lakestan, comprising parts of the Lorestan, Hamadan, Kermanshah, and Ilam provinces of Iran, although there are Lak communities elsewhere. The Laks mostly follow Shia Islam, although a significant minority follows Yarsanism.

Thoughts? Ilamxan (talk) 16:21, 15 May 2026 (UTC)

Why is the ethnic label erased? Semsûrî (talk) 16:57, 15 May 2026 (UTC)

Its a constant cause of disputes on this article, and the community itself is divided on it, I don't have any better solution but if you do I'm all for it. Ilamxan (talk) 17:46, 15 May 2026 (UTC)

There is not a constant dispute in this article. Even if there was disruption, well-sourced information should not watered down. Moreover, ethnicity and self-identification are two distinct concepts and the article does already address the later. Semsûrî (talk) 18:05, 15 May 2026 (UTC)

What about the origin section? The Minorsky part is already mentioned more detailed in the history section (in addition to other scholars), and the other parts are more about the Zand tribe than the Laks. I don't see the point in the origin section. Ilamxan (talk) 16:43, 2 July 2026 (UTC)