Talk:Kajaani Castle

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Quote:

"Construction of the Kajaani castle began in 1604 and was completed in 1619. At first the castle only consisted of a stone wall, two round towers, and wooden buildings at the yard inside the castle."

1. Does A stone wall mean ONE stone wall?

2. ...wooden buildings inside the castle?

Are there any references, pics or other proofs of this?!

(BoNo) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.167.110.42 (talk) 00:34, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Added links to more content from reliable sites. Naturally the castle had walls all around it. You can say it in English as "a stone wall". --Drieakko 05:18, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Please stop vandalizing this page by subtracting English links, replacing them with links exclusively in Finnish.

The subject pages of Wikipedia is NOT a forum for discussion. If you have any questions about the material presented by the links you may use their blogs or e-mail the authors.

Just remember; What You may call green other may call yellow.

Meanwhile: Please stop stalking my contributions. Blaming others of "Vandalism" whenever you disagree has nothing to do with ethical behaviour. This is not YOUR web-site or your class-room and there's no-one asking you to rectify professional research or peer-reviews.

Please reverse your last deletion of the links I added. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Borath (talk • contribs) 05:49, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments. Kindly note that your private Internet site that you are pushing as the reference is not an established source and may not be regarded as such. Judging from its content, it is also providing false information which results in its speedy removal.

This article is on my watch list and will be also in the future. --Drieakko 05:57, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Please read this Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Self-published_sources_as_secondary_sources. --Drieakko 06:44, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

What don't you know? 1. This is not MY private web-page, although I am the main contributor. 2. Providing false information? That's a serious claim - would you care to explain?! 3. What about the other english site you keep "expelling" made by Dominic Goode? (http://www.fortified-places.com/kajaani.html

Is that one biased too? (Borath 07:26, 27 March 2007 (UTC))

Removed the other reference as well. That did not fall in the category of acceptable secondary sources either. As for the site you are interested in, almost all Kven related references there are fictional. --Drieakko 12:09, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

If you have copyright to the text in that site, please consider moving the content to Wikipedia, with proper references for the information there. --Drieakko 12:15, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you can resolve your revert war by adding the disputed links under an External Links section? That way the interested reader can check out these pages themselves, and other readers can be assured that the article is based on reliable secondary sources only. Labongo 06:45, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps that is a possible solution if he insists on publicity for his private site. However, basically that still means that a Wikipedia user is given the possibility of extending the Wikipedia article out of Wikipedia, without need for references and public discussion on the content. --Drieakko 07:04, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

The expressions "private research" and "not falling under the category of acceptable external links" are a nothing but another biased and misleading use of terms. Expelling the three ONLY links that deals with this subject-matter in English - whereof one is the official web-page from The National Board of Antiquities (NBA) in Finland - should talk for itself. The second page I linked is published by an independant English researher, who is reknown for his objectivity on European Castles and Fortifications. The third one in question are the local web-page for "Kajaani Castle Friendship Society", were I happen to be a contributor.

There are NO valid reasons to replace these english web-pages about Kajaani Castle, with the three Finnish pages - that ONLY refers a short summary of the subject-matter - for lexical purposes. Add the fact th these pages are also published only in FINNISH language - and it becomes ridiculous to watch the persistent conduct of user dreiakko - insisting that his views are superior to ANY other published matter on this subject. The disrespect shown to the authors of the official web-pages about Kajaani Castle is othing but stunning.

If the user dreiakko needs to discuss the content of the web-page he terms "private"; he/she is already welcomed to do so - on the blog connected to that web-page. There should be no need to USE or misuse Wikipedias pages as a discussion-forum to profile strictly personal views and motives.

Another, but paralell, matter is the private research published on Wikipedias pages on "Kvenland" and "The Origin of the name Kainuu" - where the present content is nothing but user dreiakkos own, PRIVATE research. The present context of these pages are not to be found anywhere else in any known litterature or web-site - and can only be explained as a result of user dreiakkos own, private research and personal opinion of that subject-matter. Consequently his attitude towards the external links reffering to Kajaani Cstle becomes nothing but contradictive and paradoxical.

(Borath 16:44, 4 April 2007 (UTC))

Please discuss on the Kven related items on their respective pages. If your Kajaani Castle site is "the official web-pages about Kajaani Castle", please indicate the authority for that claim since the site seems not to be referenced by any other source and does not itself claim official status. --Drieakko 18:42, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Kindly note that Wikipedia works so that a reference either is or is not. And if it is, it needs to be acknowledged by some party seen reliable. You are welcome to move your material to Wikipedia instead of linking it to Wikipedia. That's the way Wikipedia works. Personal attacks on me are not of use here. --Drieakko 18:47, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Please explain why the Finnish Department of Culture and the formal owner of the castle, the Finnish National Board of Antiquities, are not concerned as "reliable sources". --Borath 09:06, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

What's up, Dreiakko - did Dr. Henrik Liljus' web-page suddenly change its quality - or do you simply want to run a side-bet on "Wikipedias scientific standards"?

Furthermore we should obviusly consider your comprehension of "vandalism" to be excused. Don't you agree?

Now, what about the Kajaaninlinna Research Project and Dr. Koch-Johansens views - as refered on www.kajaneborg.com? Not worth mentioning? Constantly stalking or obstructing genuine sources of basic information may be another example of "vandalism".--Borath 22:04, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

The site is owned by the National Board of Antiquities of Finland and funded by the Finnish Ministry of Education. It is a proper reference. --Drieakko 07:14, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

So why did you exclude it - even TWICE?--Borath 01:58, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

What is this bullshit: "In 1917 a hydro-electric plant was built at Ämmäkoski, including a dam that raised the water-level around the castle-ruin by some 5 meters - covering the basement and the first floor of the ruin.

By 1937 the flooded castle-island became a fundament for a new road-bridge. Before the completion of this bridge the old ruin was covered in sand and a new "ruin" was constructed on top of the old one."

If this had ever been done - I would know. I have lived in Kajaani most of my life as my father and his parents and their ancestors. Water level did not rise and new ruins were not built.

Sorry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.194.199.105 (talk) 17:56, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

External links modified

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External links modified

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I have just modified 3 external links on Kajaani Castle. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

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• Added archive https://archive.is/20061009064727/http://www.kajaani.fi/modules/page/show_page~id~7167BE43630A4726BBF360D9DE5CCB7E~itemtype~00308B787886459385F296A5AFD4FA74~tabletarget~data_1~pid~7DD3DDC70FE645B38758D4F504AC416D~layout~kajaani06.asp to http://www.kajaani.fi/modules/page/show_page~id~7167BE43630A4726BBF360D9DE5CCB7E~itemtype~00308B787886459385F296A5AFD4FA74~tabletarget~data_1~pid~7DD3DDC70FE645B38758D4F504AC416D~layout~kajaani06.asp
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090809150417/http://www.kajaaninyliopistokeskus.oulu.fi/omasto/rheikkin/Kajaanin_linna29112006.htm to http://www.kajaaninyliopistokeskus.oulu.fi/omasto/rheikkin/Kajaanin_linna29112006.htm

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Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Plifal talk 13:34, 17 May 2025 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

a 1882 drawing of the castle by Jac Ahrenberg

• ... that upon its completion, the Kajaani Castle (pictured) was the northernmost stone castle in Europe?

• Source: Salmirinne, Sini: Pohjolan kivilinna brändätään 2000-luvulle - "Ei linnanrauniot vaan rauniolinna", YLE 6 May 2015. Accessed on 17 May 2025.

• • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Reinaldo Herrera
  • Comment:

5x expanded by JIP (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 10 past nominations.

JIP | Talk 09:03, 18 April 2025 (UTC).

• The article has been expanded by more than 5 times in the past week, no isses with copyright, and the information is cited both in the article and hook. My only question is if the hook could also mention the castle's location in Sweden (fine if not). However, there is significant uncited sections within the article. GGOTCC 21:09, 19 April 2025 (UTC)
  • I will see if I can find more sources for the article. Both the Finnish and the Swedish articles about the castle have an infobox, I could probably add one for this article as well. I am assuming that it's fine to mention the castle as being in Sweden as the area it's located in belonged to Sweden from when the castle was constructed to well past its destruction, although it's now located in independent Finland. JIP | Talk 21:38, 19 April 2025 (UTC)
    • Do you have citations for Kajaani Castle in literature and From ruin to restoration? If not, the article is not eligable for DYK. GGOTCC 21:45, 19 April 2025 (UTC)
      • I will see if I can find some sources. JIP | Talk 21:53, 19 April 2025 (UTC)
        • @GGOTCC: I have now expanded the article adding some more sources. JIP | Talk 16:40, 1 May 2025 (UTC)
          • @JIP: I still see a lot of uncited information. Many paragraphs lack a ref at the end and sentences are still uncited. GGOTCC 19:18, 1 May 2025 (UTC)
            • @GGOTCC: I have loaned professor Reijo Heikkinen's book about the Kajaani Castle from the library and added some more references based on it. I also have two other books and will try to see if I can add still more references. JIP | Talk 21:06, 10 May 2025 (UTC)
              • @JIP: Much better, but the last two sentences in From ruin to restoration is uncited. GGOTCC 20:20, 11 May 2025 (UTC)
                • @GGOTCC: I can see if I can find references for them in professor Heikkinen's book. I can't find any references for them they can just be removed as uncited. I don't think the article will suffer much for that. JIP | Talk 22:28, 11 May 2025 (UTC)
                  • @JIP: Cool, I will remove those sentences shortly. There are some other issues with lines such as:

1. and this also applied to his successor Johan Ulfsparre.
2. After several battles, Tysk was feared to be dead, and Finland's equerry Nils Olofsson was appointed as a temporary castle commander. Olofsson did not continue the construction of the castle either.,
3. In the third episode of the novel during the Great Northern War in 1776 the character Kustaa Bertelsköld, a Carolean wounded in the war, bears witness along with his wife in the castle to the Russian siege and the castle's surrender. The events also include the real historical persons the castle's commander Johan Henrik Fieandt and the Paltamo-born strongman Daniel Cajanus ("Daniel the Tall") who later achieved fame throughout Europe, who in Topelius's story explodes the castle's gunpowder cellar at the age of thirteen and so causes the destruction of the castle conquered by the enemy.
4. Daniel Cajanus also plays a part in Kukkonen's novel following Fieandt's family to prison and on their escape back to freedom.

Since these are substancial parts of the prose, I assumed the refs got mixed up and accidently dropped. Can you make sense of this? GGOTCC 23:47, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

• @GGOTCC: I have found references for the third point in your list. I will have to search for references for the remaining three. If no references can be found, the lines might have to be removed as uncited. JIP | Talk 22:56, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
  • @GGOTCC: I also found some references for the fourth point but could not find any references for the other two. I have removed the remaining uncited parts. JIP | Talk 13:37, 16 May 2025 (UTC)
    • @JIP: Main hook good to go! Thank you for the cooperation! GGOTCC 19:17, 16 May 2025 (UTC)
      • @GGOTCC: comment: hi, i'm newly trying my hat at dyk queue prepping, and i noticed that this article has been expanded in size by nearly a third of its current total. is this an issue?--Plifal (talk) 04:08, 17 May 2025 (UTC)
        • @Plifal: The article was first nominated on April 18 when the article was first expanded. I used this version to guage the article size prior a week of editing before 18 April. This version has a prose size of 485 words, compared to 2,862 words from this version when the article was nominated. While the article fails the 5× rule currently, it passed when first nominated. The nomination took a while due to issues regarding uncited info. Is this still satisfactory? GGOTCC 05:20, 17 May 2025 (UTC)
          • @GGOTCC: ahh! apologies!! i think there's a misunderstanding, i was looking at the 'procedure' section of wp:dykpbi, specifically, "... that the article has not been substantially edited since the last approval." which when remembering it i thought referred to the date of nomination, but considering you approved this nomination yesterday, i gather this does not apply?--Plifal (talk) 05:46, 17 May 2025 (UTC)
            • @Plifal: No worries! Of my understanding (which may be wrong), that point means the article should not have been substantially changed since the hook was approved. If I approved the hook last month, and JIP proceeded to re-do the entire article since then, then that would be an issue. GGOTCC 06:00, 17 May 2025 (UTC)
              • @GGOTCC: that's my understanding too. i also found checked the source, however, and this citation has (edit: potential) wp:rs concerns; unfortunately i can't promote this as it is.--Plifal (talk) 06:10, 17 May 2025 (UTC)
              • also tagging @JIP: can you confirm the source's veracity?--Plifal (talk) 06:12, 17 May 2025 (UTC)
                • @Plifal: @GGOTCC: The cited source is from the website of the Museum of Kainuu, which is an officially instituted museum in Finland, and it mentions there was an exhibition about the castle in 2004, and the page mentions the castle was the northernmost stone castle in Europe. Unfortunately, the page itself doesn't exist any more. The exhibition took place 21 years ago. The cited source is from the Internet Archive. I think I found a better source from a simple Google search: Pohjolan kivilinna brändätään 2000-luvulle - "Ei linnanrauniot vaan rauniolinna". This is an article from Yleisradio, the official broadcasting company in Finland. The title says "The stone castle of the North is being branded to the 21st century - "Not ruins of a castle but a castle in ruins", and the text begins "Euroopan pohjoisin kivilinna. Suomen ainoa kaupunkikeskustassa sijaitseva linna. Puhe on Kajaanin linnasta - tai pikemminkin linnanraunioista.", meaning "The northernmost stone castle in Europe. The only castle in Finland to be located in the centre of a city. We are talking about the Kajaani Castle - or more accurately, its ruins." This source is more accessible as the page is still online. JIP | Talk 11:33, 17 May 2025 (UTC)
                  • @JIP: excellent, thanks! the archive link just looked a bit unwieldy, but i'm more than happy with this explanation and new citation. promoting.--Plifal (talk) 13:33, 17 May 2025 (UTC)