Talk:Joseph Larmor

Contributions to Lorent transformations to add

The following has been removed from relativity of simultaneity and some of it could be used here (keeping in mind that some of it already is in lorentz transformations):

Development of the final Lorentz Transformations

Larmor knew that the Michelson-Morley experiment was accurate enough to detect an effect of motion depending on the factor $v^{2}/c^{2}$, yet no such effect was detected. He sought, therefore, the transformations which were "accurate to second order" (as he put it). His solution was to modify the first order transformations in two ways:

• he included the Fitzgerald contraction (already known to account for the Michelson-Morley result and already in Lorentz's first version of the transformation) and
• he introduced (or predicted) the revolutionary idea of time dilation, at least for particles whose motion was determined by electromagnetic forces.

Thus he wrote the final transformations as

$x'=\epsilon ^{1/2}x^{*}=\epsilon ^{1/2}\left(x-vt\right)\,$

$y'=y\,$

$z'=z\,$

$t'=\epsilon ^{-1/2}t^{*}=\epsilon ^{-1/2}t-\epsilon ^{1/2}vx^{*}/c^{2}=\epsilon ^{-1/2}t-\epsilon ^{1/2}\left(x-vt\right)/c^{2},\,$

from which it can be seen that lengths $x'=\epsilon ^{1/2}x^{*}$ are shorter by the factor $\epsilon ^{1/2}=\gamma$ and time $t'=\epsilon ^{-{\frac {1}{2}}}t^{*}$ is longer by the factor $\epsilon ^{-1/2}=1/\gamma$ for the moving system.

Larmor showed that Maxwell's equations were invariant under this two-step transformation, "to second order in $v/c$", as he put it. His transformations did more than this since a little algebra shows that the relation between $\left(x',\,y',\,z',\,t'\right)\,$ and $\left(x,\,y,\,z,\,t\right)\,$ is

$x'=\gamma (x-vt)\,$

$y'=y\,$

$z'=z\,$

$t'=\gamma \left(t-vx/c^{2}\right)$

which are the Lorentz transformations, for which we know Maxwell's equations are invariant to any order in $v/c$. Einstein (1905) and Poincaré (1905) wrote the transformations in this form. It was Poincaré (1905) who named them as the Lorentz Transformations. Lorentz (1899) and (1904) had published the transformations in a similar form to Larmor (as above), and Poincaré was apparently unaware of Larmor's (1897) previous publication.

It is worth repeating the first published prediction of time dilation:

"... individual electrons describe corresponding parts of their orbits in times shorter for the [rest] system in the ratio $\epsilon ^{-1/2}$" (Larmor 1897)

Larmor probably would have thought of this as a dynamical prediction from Maxwell's equations rather than a general statement about the nature of time.

• Larmor, J. (1897) "On a dynamical theory of the electric and luminiferous medium", Phil. Trans. Roy. Soc. 190, 205-300 (third and last in a series of papers with the same name).
• Larmor, J. (1900) Aether and Matter, Cambridge University Press

Harald88 12:33, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Who is Judd?

I had an adventure before arriving at this page. My journey began at Librivox; the fine people there have turned Poincaré's Science and Hypothesis into an audiobook with an introduction by a "Judd Larmor". In a less incurious mood, I google(tm) "Judd Larmor". Nothing. Hmm, that shouldn't happen. I know Wikisource has the book. I find it. But they only show a "J. Larmor"; the "J." could still be a "Judd". But this "J. Larmor" is identified as the "Lucasian Professor of Mathematics". So I google(tm) "Lucasian Professor of Mathematics" and I find the Wikipedia page (Lucasian Professor of Mathematics). A click here, a click there, and I find Joseph. So, who is Judd? Did someone just make a guess at the name? Or is Judd a diminutive of Joseph? (See "Bertie" Einstein). Just curious. Ingram (talk) 01:57, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

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Larmor's Nationality

The policy, from what I can see looking at other figures, is to use the nationality based on current boundaries. But Joseph Larmor is British on every count. He was born in Ireland when all of Ireland was British. And he was born in the part of Ireland that remained British after 1922. He was a Protestant and Unionist politician and spent his professional career in British institutions. When Irish citizenship first came into existence in 1935, Larmor had nothing to do with the Republic of Ireland. He was not Irish. By all means describe him as Northern Irish. But he was definitely not Irish. There was nothing Irish about the man. 2A00:23C8:4D8C:5501:385F:3D03:DAF:E7AB (talk) 23:18, 26 August 2025 (UTC)

Open AI says,

Sir Joseph Larmor was:

Of Anglo-Scottish descent

A Protestant Unionist

Politically and culturally aligned with British identity, not Irish nationalism

Firmly opposed to Irish Home Rule

So, while geographically he was born on the island of Ireland, it's accurate to say:

He was not "Irish" in a cultural or nationalistic sense.

✔️ To be more precise:

Born in Ireland → Yes

Ethnically/culturally Irish → No

British subject → Yes

Politically British/Unionist → Strongly so

He even served as a Member of Parliament for Cambridge University (as a Unionist) from 1911 to 1922 and opposed the growing push for Irish independence.

So the best summary is:

Sir Joseph Larmor was a British physicist and Unionist politician, born in County Antrim (then part of Ireland), of Anglo-Scottish Protestant background. Though Irish-born, he did not identify with Irish nationalism or culture.

Let me know if you'd like this kind of distinction made for other historical figures — especially from the complex Anglo-Irish context.2A00:23C8:4D8C:5501:385F:3D03:DAF:E7AB (talk) 23:37, 26 August 2025 (UTC)

Wikipedia says, we're not interested in what AI says. Being Protestant, Uniunist or any other thing you may choose to bring up doesn't change the fact that people born in Ireland are, wait for it, Irish. FDW777 (talk) 23:39, 26 August 2025 (UTC)

And by that same argument, people born in the British Isles are, wait for it, British. 2A00:23C8:4D8C:5501:9C67:9EC5:8A:2A18 (talk) 00:51, 30 August 2025 (UTC)

Also see for example well-known Shinners Edward Carson (I am very proud as an Irishman to be a member of the British Empire) and Ian Paisley (you cannot be an Ulsterman without being an Irishman) who contradict the assumption that holding a particular viewpoint on Irish politics prevents the person from being Irish. FDW777 (talk) 00:03, 27 August 2025 (UTC)

By the same token, holding a republican viewpoint doesn't prevent a Northern Ireland politician from being British. But nobody would go to the page of a Northern Ireland republican and change the nationality to British, even though they are British. The policy for a long time has been to consider the community background when assigning nationality to Northern Ireland people. Larmor is British. And by the way, Carson and Paisley weren't Shinners. They were the complete opposite. Was that just a mistake that you made, or were you deliberately making some point?2A00:23C8:4D8C:5501:9C67:9EC5:8A:2A18 (talk) 00:59, 30 August 2025 (UTC)

FDW777 You call that truth? You take a single word — Irish — strip it of its bone and blood, and wave it like a flag, hoping no one’ll look past it. You know better. You know the man was British in blood, British in mind, British in loyalty. He stood in Parliament wearing a Unionist badge while you try to paint him green. That’s cowardice. If you had any backbone, you’d face the facts straight: He was born in Ireland, yes — same as a man might be born in a barn. But that doesn't make him a horse, and it doesn't make him Irish.

What you’re doing is dressing up a lie in Sunday clothes hoping it’ll pass. But a lie’s a lie. 2A00:23C8:4D8C:5501:385F:3D03:DAF:E7AB (talk) 00:14, 27 August 2025 (UTC)

Since you're so fond of what AI says, it says this about part of your post; The concept of "British blood" is racist because it relies on a myth of racial purity to define national identity and exclude non-white people. The phrase, along with related ideas of "bloodlines" and "British stock," has been used by colonialists, eugenicists, and far-right nationalists to promote racist ideologies. Per WP:IMOS, he doesn't get described as "Northern Irish", which I don't see as being materially different from simply "Irish" in the context of your objections. FDW777 (talk) 12:14, 27 August 2025 (UTC)

FDW777 We can see you. You're painting orange men as green. 2A00:23C8:4D8C:5501:C0BD:B9D1:21EE:7B30 (talk) 16:54, 27 August 2025 (UTC)

The edit being referred to is specifically covered by WP:IMOS, since he was born before partition he doesn't get referred to as "Northern Irish". As you clearly have no objection to the phrase "Northern Irish" this extended meta discussion about Irish versus British is of no apparent relevance. FDW777 (talk) 18:58, 2 September 2025 (UTC)

FDW777, Sir Joseph Larmor was British in every sense imaginable. And your link doesn't say what you claim it says. You are trying to paint orange men as green. Do you have no scientists of your own? 2A00:23C8:4D8C:5501:FF:3249:D4BC:3A09 (talk) 23:07, 9 September 2025 (UTC)