Talk:John Caesar

First person of recent African descent in Australia

He wasn't the first black man in Australia there were 17 on the first fleet including the notable John Randall (born a slave in conneticutt (i am dyslexic) fought on the British side of the American war of independance to gain his freedom then stole a steel watch chain so transported on the Alexander in the First Fleet gamekeeper to Govener Philip and first non-Aboringinal kill an emu, it was with a gun, he owned land in sydney - so did his descendants and to this day the area is called Dixieland- he was also a policeman and he was killed by a convict in Tasmania with an axe in the head). Look at 'Black Founders' by Cassandra Pybus. I am angry as we are not recognised. Sorry that last bit was irrelevent. I am going to edit the page.Squall1991 10:57, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I was not sure, that's why I said "probably the first black man" when I wrote this article. The Pybus book's been on my reading list for a while. Hesperides 02:02, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Madagascar

The 1st and 3rd links include a statement that he was born in Madagascar. Is there any reason then to say that he was probably born in the West Indies? -- roundhouse0 (talk) 14:20, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Death

The side-bar lists his cause of death as a gunshot, and that he died in 1796. There is no information in the article about his death, nor anything about him past 1789 other than the inference that he "lived happily ever after" on Garden Island, when he in fact became a bushranger after escaping from Garden Island. Given the nature of his death, and the fact an article about a bushranger doesn't actually cover his time as a bushranger, one would think that these are important omissions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.233.34.248 (talk) 01:45, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Good catch - so are you going to fix it up?Nickm57 (talk) 13:44, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Description

It seems it is with a broad brush that Caesar is described as "black" or "African". He was Malagasy, and while he may have had some Bantu (Southeast African) ancestry, Madagascar is generally not considered a part of Africa, and the Malagasy peoples are ethnically and culturally more similar to Southeast Asian peoples. I feel this should be noted somewhere in the article, or the article reworded. 49.188.113.132 (talk) 12:16, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

It's 100% important to describe Caesar's race accurately as it's a factor in why he is historically significant (he was one of the only non-white/non-Aboriginal people in Australia at that time). His contemporaries definitely considered him to be "black" (administrator David Collins literally called him "Caesar the black") and presumably treated him the same way they would have treated a West African man. Even if he wouldn't be considered black by today's standards, he definitely was at the time. Therefore it seems justified to me to refer to Caesar as black.

Is there a term commonly used to refer to individuals from both Madagascar and mainland Africa? Could we say he was from "the African continent"? SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 13:47, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

GA review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:John Caesar/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: SkywalkerEccleston (talk · contribs) 06:10, 6 April 2025 (UTC)

Reviewer: MCE89 (talk · contribs) 05:15, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

Hi! I'll be reviewing this article. I'm reviewing this for the May backlog drive, so as part of the drive I'll also be listing this for a more experienced reviewer to come by and take a look at my review. I'll give some initial comments in the next day or so. MCE89 (talk) 05:15, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable, as shown by a source spot-check.

   a (reference section): b (inline citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

   Earwig shows a high percentage, but is only flagging properly attributed quotes. No copyvio or close paraphrasing issues identified. MCE89 (talk) 07:46, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   Article is broad in its coverage. No major aspects of the topic are missing, and the article is an appropriate length. MCE89 (talk) 07:46, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

   No NPOV issues identified. MCE89 (talk) 07:46, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

   No stability issues. MCE89 (talk) 07:46, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   Images are appropriately placed and captioned, and have accurate PD tags MCE89 (talk) 07:46, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

@SkywalkerEccleston I've added my review comments below. Overall I think the article generally satisfies all of the GA criteria and have just given a few comments to address. Feel free to push back if you disagree with any of these suggestions. MCE89 (talk) 07:46, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

Hi MCE89, I have made all these changes and the page is ready for your review. The only thing I haven't changed is your note about the chronology of Garden Island. Could you provide an example of the kind of amendment you would like? Thanks SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 23:49, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

All looks great! Reading over it again, I think the article's chronology regarding Garden Island is fine as it is — I was a bit thrown off by the fact that the other sources don't mention him being sent there until after his first escape, but what you have makes sense and is supported by the Chingaipe source. I'll leave this review open for another day or two so that hopefully another reviewer can pick it up from the list on the backlog drive page to check over, but I'm satisfied that the article meets the GA criteria and will pass it if not. MCE89 (talk) 10:47, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

Thanks. SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 01:40, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

Prose and general comments

Lead

• Following a third escape in 1794, Caesar seriously wounded Aboriginal warrior Pemulwuy during a Bidjigal guerilla attack. - The body of the article seems to suggest that these two things were unrelated (i.e. he wounded Pemulwuy at least a year after being recaptured). If that’s the case, I think this phrasing should be changed slightly, as it currently reads to me as saying that he wounded Pemulwuy during his escape or that the two things were somehow connected

Transportation to Australia

• ...as one of twelve black convicts - Perhaps change this to "at least twelve", or attribute this figure to Cheek? Chingaipe has more recently estimated that there were fifteen black convicts, and I believe other historians have given different estimates

Convict life

• Suggest wikilinking Dennis Considen
• Suggest wikilinking Lady Juliana (1777 ship)
• Not a GA requirement so feel free to ignore, but the blockquotes throughout the article aren't consistent in whether or not they are enclosed in quotation marks. Per MOS:BLOCKQUOTE, they shouldn't generally have quotation marks.

Legacy

• Anne Power died on 25 March on Norfolk Island - add the year for clarity
• Suggest wikilinking Santilla Chingaipe
• It's not essential, but I think it could be useful to add a sentence based on some of the existing sources to explain the significance of bushrangers and why the fact that Caesar was the first Australian bushranger is so notable. E.g. explaining what a bushranger is and that later bushrangers like Ned Kelly have assumed a prominent role in Australian folklore

In popular culture

• Suggest wikilinking Percy Lindsay
• It would be good to provide a little more context for each of the items in this section, as at the moment it feels a bit like a list of trivia. E.g. for the last one, you could expand this to at the very least something like Mohamed Osman portrayed Caesar in the 2021 SBS docudrama Our African Roots. The docudrama was written and produced by Zambian-Australian historian Santilla Chingaipe, who said that she hoped it would spur a conversation about how Black people had contributed to Australian national identity. A brief discussion of how he is portrayed in each of these pieces of media, particularly in The Playmaker, would be even better.

Source review

Major sources

• Cheek (2018) Y all checks out
• Chingaipe (2024)
  • I think ...though contemporary historians believe Madagascar was his place of birth suggests a bit more certainty than is really contained in these sources. Of the three sources you cite for this statement, only Cheek outright says that Madagascar was his place of birth. Chingaipe says "his precise origins remain unknown: there has been speculation he was originally from Madagascar, and early reports claimed he was from the West Indies" and Cunneen & Gillen say he was "of unknown African parentage, may have been born on Madagascar". I’d suggest qualifying this statement slightly to something more like "...though contemporary historians have suggested that Madagascar may have in fact been his place of birth".
• Cunneen & Gillen (2005)
  • Both this source and Cheek imply that Caesar wasn’t sent to Garden Island until after his first escape, whereas the article follows Chingaipe in suggesting that he was sent to Garden Island straight after the First Fleet's arrival. I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with the way the article currently presents this, but is it possible to make this chronology slightly clearer?

Other sources

• Ref 13 Y all checks out
• Ref 49 Y all checks out
• Ref 54 Y all checks out

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by reviewer, closed by Narutolovehinata5 talk 00:18, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that the first Australian bushranger was John Caesar, a Malagasy convict formerly enslaved in the United States?

• Source: https://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/caesar-john-black-12829

• • Reviewed:

Improved to Good Article status by SkywalkerEccleston (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 5 past nominations.

SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 13:44, 2 June 2025 (UTC).

• Article has achieved Good Article status. No issues of copyvio or plagiarism. All sources appear reliable. Hook is interesting and sourced. A QPQ is needed. Once it is done, this will be ready. Thriley (talk) 21:09, 3 June 2025 (UTC)
  • @SkywalkerEccleston and Thriley: This is a "first" hook; as such, given the claim being pretty extraordinary, I would suggest bringing this nomination up at WT:DYK for extra scrutiny. This is just to make sure that the "first" claim in this case is actually true. Otherwise, it might be better to propose a different hook. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:00, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

Closing this as unsuccessful due to a lack of a QPQ. While normally I would have given the nominator a final message, the nomination has already gone over a week without a QPQ. They also did not respond to the ping regarding the QPQ or the above comment regarding hook scrutiny. @SkywalkerEccleston: If you wish to appeal this closure, please do so at WT:DYK. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:18, 11 June 2025 (UTC)