Talk:Issy Smith

ADB article published 1988 - inaccuracies

• Born in Alexandria
• Father was a clerk at the French Consular Service
• His parents had French citizenship
• His recruiting sergeant gave him a new name
• He won the army middleweight boxing championship
• Awarded Delhi Durbar medal, so will be on the medal roll
• Was awarded Russian medal in 1917 for rescuing Russian soldiers in Mesopotamia
• His parents, who had remained in Egypt, both disowned him for marrying a Gentile.

Australian Dictionary of Biography

This had been used as a source for a number of facts in the article. I am calling out the items above as inaccurate, given that more source material has come to light since then. Lian Knight's book has to be the definitive secondary source on his biography. Keith H99 (talk) 11:43, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Not only, but also

• wounded five times during the war
• migrated with the family in 1925

Lian Knight's book must have taken an age to research. His actual biography is one story, the myths and misinformation about him are another. Keith H99 (talk) 14:58, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Being wounded five times was sourced from the following obituaries, reproduced by the ANU

https://oa.anu.edu.au/obituary/smith-issy-8473/text24947

https://oa.anu.edu.au/obituary/smith-issy-8473/text24948

The above also places him in the King's bodyguard. Keith H99 (talk) 13:33, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Link to the original page. Same content, but a different format. Keith H99 (talk) 15:46, 2 August 2025 (UTC)

Price, John E. "Issy Smith (1890–1940)". Smith, Issy (1890–1940). Australian Dictionary of Biography, Volume 11, 1988. Australian National University. Archived from the original on 24 May 2011. Retrieved 29 July 2007. Keith H99 (talk) 15:46, 2 August 2025 (UTC)

Sources quoted

Age (Melbourne), 12 Sept 1940, uses the 'wounded 5 times' myth and the 'honour guard' trope
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204392654

Argus (Melbourne), 12 Sept 1940, uses the 'wounded 5 times' myth
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11309417

Singleton Argus (NSW), 13 Sept 1940
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/81972592

Sydney Morning Herald, 12 Sept 1940
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/27947464

Any errors or omissions are mine. Keith H99 (talk) 12:57, 8 August 2025 (UTC)

The Knight biography

I am accessing this as an eBook, and think it advisable to also add chapter info to the talk page, in addition to the page numbers.

Early Life

^ Jump up to:a b c Knight 2022, pp. 81–82.	Ch 03	Refuge in Constantinople		Birth
^ Jump up to:a b Knight 2022, pp. 1127–1128.		Footnote to Chapter 37		death
^ Knight 2022, p. 65.	Ch 02	Escape from Russia		To Odessa
^ Knight 2022, pp. 72, 75.	Ch 02	Escape from Russia		Left in 1888
	Ch 03	Refuge in Constantinople		Turkey
^ Knight 2022, p. 87.	Ch 03	Refuge in Constantinople		Egypt
Knight 2022, p. 90-91.	Ch 04	Safety in Egypt		Consulate
Knight 2022, pp. 79–80.	Ch 04	Safety in Egypt		Seamstress
^ Knight 2022, p. 483.	Ch 20	Joys and Challenges of Returning Home		Tailor
Knight 2022, pp. 122–123.	Ch 05	Stowaway to London		Delivery
Knight 2022, pp. 126–127.	Ch 05	Stowaway to London		Brothers in London

Keith H99 (talk) 19:19, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

World War I

^ Knight 2022, pp. 213–214.	Ch 10	Neuve Chapelle		Reserve Battalion
Knight 2022, p. 271.	Ch 12	The BIG News		Hospital Le Havre
Knight 2022, p. 397.	Ch 17	Disaster and Splendour		Photo at the Palace
Knight 2022, p. 421.	Ch 18	The Ill-fated Campaign		Malaria
^ Knight 2022, p. 447.	Ch 19	End of the Fight		Broken nose
^ Knight 2022, p. 454.	Ch 19	End of the Fight		Leave in Egypt
^ Knight 2022, p. 459-460.	Ch 19	End of the Fight		Knee
^ Knight 2022, p. 462.	Ch 19	End of the Fight		Fall of Jerusalem
^ Knight 2022, p. 466.	Ch 19	End of the Fight		September discharge
^ Knight 2022, p. 467.	Ch 19	End of the Fight		Cairo December discharge
^ Knight 2022, pp. 472–474.	Ch 19	End of the Fight		Wound stripes

Legacy

^ Knight 2022, pp. 484.	Ch 20	Joys and Challenges of Returning Home		Synagogue
^ Knight 2022, pp. 480–481.	Ch 20	Joys and Challenges of Returning Home		Whether family disapproved
^ Knight 2022, pp. 485.	Ch 20	Joys and Challenges of Returning Home		Hackney
^ Knight 2022, pp. 620–621.	Ch 25	The Lure Down Under		1927 emigration
^ Knight 2022, pp. 627–628.	Ch 25	The Lure Down Under		Moonee Ponds & Essendon RSL
^ Knight 2022, pp. 220–229.	Ch 30	The Politics of Elections		1931 election
Knight 2022, pp. 879–880, 1124–1125.	Ch 36	Grim Resolve		Letter to Major Barrett

The real story about Issy Smith

I am a descendant of Issy. I'm currently writing his biography which I expect to publish next year when it is completed. After pouring over family records, interviewing his son and following extensive research, in most cases of official records, I have been able to uncover previously unknown details about him as well as confirm that a lot of information circulating is incorrect. I would like to adjust this when I have completed the research. It is great to come across this page and see the interest about him, and fantastic that his story has appeared as a feature article. He hasn't been forgotten.LAMK2020 (talk) 07:07, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm very pleased to see this. I exchanged emails with Issy's son a few years ago. He didn't have much information other than the accepted story. I also made enquiries at the Portuguese synagogue in Manchester but drew a blank, and couldn't find any trace of the street where Issy is supposed to have lived. If you have new information, then that's excellent. As you can see from the above, there are many contradictions in this story. Something that intrigues me is how a ten-year-old boy can sail as a stowaway to a foreign country (if that's what he did), and conduct an existence there. Where did he live? Did he, and if so how did he, go to school? Could he read and write? How did he eat? I look forward to reading your account. Good luck. Hengistmate (talk) 12:09, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Hi Hengismate - hoping you are still on air after two years! Please see my note below regarding the book that is now released. I would be pleased to talk to you further. Kind regards LAMK2020 (talk) 02:04, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

There are many contradictions and it has been a painstaking process to sort out the fact from fiction. He was trying to reach his brothers in London. He stowed away at age 11, actually twice - he was found by one of the crew on his first attempt, at Port Said on the Suez Canal (it is possible he did not know where he was going!). He stayed with the Harbour Master for five days before a suitable ship was available to take him home. He then wasted no time in boarding a new ship on which he made it successfully to London. Although he spoke three languages, English was not one of them then, yet he was able to find his brothers. The rest will be in the story! — Preceding unsigned comment added by LAMK2020 (talk • contribs) 03:32, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Providing accurate update to Sergeant Issy Smith VC article

Dear team

I have been in touch previously. I am the granddaughter of Sergeant Issy Smith VC and I have just published a book on his life story. I am not sure who I spoke to last time, but the editor mentioned that he was keen to hear more as there were gaps in Issy's history and it was believed that we would never know the real story. This inspired the title of the book, which is RATBAG SOLDIER SAINT - the real story of Sergeant Issy Smith VC. The book is the result of two years extensive research which includes interviews with family. It is now time to update the webpage to correct the inaccuracies. If you can let me know how i can assist, I would be happy to provide you with more information. Kind regards Lian Knight LAMK2020 (talk) 02:02, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

I suspect that was me. I'm delighted to hear that you've made progress. What do you want to do now? Hengistmate (talk) 13:03, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi Hengistmate - there are parts of Issy's wikipedia article that need to be updated, now that more facts are known. Would you like me to do this, and how would you like me to provide the information? 58.179.93.207 (talk) 01:36, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Hello. Long time no communication. Are you still working on Issy's story? Hengistmate (talk) 14:36, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Delhi Durbar

Interesting to read that three battalions comprised the Jullundur Brigade, Issy Smith being in 1st Battalion Manchester Regiment, with an overseas (India) battalion establishment of 940 men during peacetime. From the Brigade of approximately 3000 men, there were only 16 medals for distribution to WOs, NCOs and Other Ranks, excluding members of the band, for whom 6 medals had been allocated. It's not many medals, relative to the persons present. Keith H99 (talk) 16:58, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Out of a book strength of 940 men (Corporals, Lance Corporals, Privates), only 84 men were in receipt of the Delhi Durbar Medal, according to research done by the Manchester Regiment group. One of the men on the list is Private Alfred Burley. Four "music men" were in receipt of the medal

Surname	Initials	Number	Rank
Brandon	W.	7887	Drummer
Jones	H.	8151	Bandmaster
Kennedy	W.	5272	Band Sgt
Lawrence	G.	3702	Sgt Drummer

https://www.themanchesters.org/indexold.html

Website for the Manchester Regiment group is above. Keith H99 (talk) 13:57, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

https://www.themanchesters.org/dehli%20durbar.htm

The above is a link to the Deli Durbar page. Keith H99 (talk) 14:03, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Croix de Guerre

Troops of the French Army fought alongside the soldiers of King George V at the Second Battle of Ypres. Was it the case that the exploits of valour of the VC winners were mentioned in despatches of the French Army, with the result that Smith and others had entitlement to the Croix de Guerre? Keith H99 (talk) 16:03, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

The regimental history by Wylly (1925) has Appendix VI. On page 328, it has the names of eleven recipients of the French Croix de Guerre. On the same page, under Russian awards, Issy Smith is listed under Cross of the Order of St. George.

Between pages 320 and 321 is an insert of portrait photographs. One of those men is Issy Smith. There are three medals worn, the Victoria Cross, the Durbar Medal, and the Cross of the Order of St. George. There is a colourised version of the photo, where the ribbon of the Russian medal is coloured in. A photograph of his medals, including the Croix de Guerre, appears on the August 1927 cover of "Everyones", which is reproduced at the end of Chapter 21 of Knight's biography.

Chapter 12 of Knight does lament that an enquiry with the Ministère de la Défense, leading to a response dated 26 September 2003 failed to reveal a unit citation, and implied that Smith would have been mentioned in despatches of the French Army. It does appear they stopped short of identifying when he became eligible.Keith H99 (talk) 19:28, 26 July 2025 (UTC)

Chapter 21 of Knight does make reference to there being an appeal to raise funds for Smith and his family. This was reported in at least three newspapers. It also got a mention in The Yorkshire Evening Post, 14 January 1922, page 5.

Mr. A. Deane, of London, hopes to raise £500 with which to start Smith in a business and enable him to support his wife and children. Mr Deane points out that, although the holder of the highest British military honour and six other decorations [3 campaign medals and 3 gallantry medals] including the French Croix de Guerre and the Russian Cross of St. George, Smith's whole income from the British Government is 6s. per week.

I guess that up to this point, Smith had no cause to be mentioned in newspapers, hence no prior mention in the press that I am aware of, in relation to his Croix de Guerre. Keith H99 (talk) 19:56, 26 July 2025 (UTC)

"British Jewry Book of Honour, 1914-1918" published 1922, can be accessed online via Fold3

A blurry photo appears to show him with seven ribbons, and all three crosses for gallantry

Sergt. ISSY SMITH, V.C., placing Wreath on the Cenotaph, November 11th, 1920, in honour of the Jewish Dead.

The three campaign medals do not appear to have been worn. Keith H99 (talk) 22:21, 27 July 2025 (UTC)

His name does not appear on page 282 of the list of Croix de Guerre recipients. His name does appear on page 283 as one of three recipients of the 'Order of St George'.

Adler, Michael, ed. (1922). "French Croix de guerre". British Jewry Book of Honour. Organiser: Max R. G. Freeman. London: Caxton Publishing Company. p. 182. OCLC 9852453 – via Fold3. Keith H99 (talk) 23:09, 27 July 2025 (UTC)

Sorry, that should read as pages 182 and 183 respectively. Keith H99 (talk) 23:13, 27 July 2025 (UTC)

Disconcerting to see the following comment from his biographer - the late Robert Bonner (1928-2022) - in 2011, 3 years before he published his book:

24 June 2011, 04:51:05 PM However although he later claimed and wore the French Croix de Guerre there is no record of the award ever having been made to him.

https://themanchesters.org/forum/index.php?topic=5808.msg37554#msg37554

The mystery continues. Keith H99 (talk) 16:56, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

Issy meets Elsie

From what I have seen of many soldiers of this time period is the following: they are sent back to Southampton, they spend about four days in "quarantine" at Fort Brockhurst discharge depot, and then they leave. I would imagine that in many cases, these men would head to Fort Brockhurst railway station, head to Fareham, and take the train to London Waterloo station.

The newspaper story mentions Charing Cross station, but this is the wrong station. The writer states that 'a British regiment was returning to England from India' but this was not the case. The battalion stayed put, men who had done their time were going back to the British Isles, travelling back on the troopships that had transported their replacement drafts to India.

Pages 203 to 206 of Lian Knight's book, accessed via kobo (1321 digital folios rather than 300+ paper pages), talk about Issy Smith and Alfred Burley met up with two sisters whom they would marry in 1919. Keith H99 (talk) 22:16, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

The letter, written in Elsie's hand, does suggest that the railway "story" is a journalist's work of fiction, as recounted in this chapter by Knight. Keith H99 (talk) 18:35, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

Present at capture of German New Guinea

The article has a sentence that starts Some sources state that Smith was present. The only source attributed in the article is the sales pitch for his medals from the Noonan's website.

He immediately joined up at the St Kilda Road Barracks, Melbourne, in August 1914, and was present with the Australian Contingent the following month at the capture of German possessions in New Guinea. However, as a British Army Reservist he was obliged to rejoin the colours .... and duly proceeded to France in H.M.A.S. Sydney. He arrived on the Western Front with the Indian Contingent, and was among the substantial number of Manchesters wounded at Givenchy on 24 December, 1914. He was again wounded on 11 March, 1915, at Neuve Chapelle, and performed the deed which secured him the Victoria Cross on 26 April, 1915

There is oral history from his son on the older talk page, but I am not seeing other sources.

The Daily Herald, 28th. August 1915, An interview with Sergeant Rooke of 1st. Battalion The Manchester Regiment,-- stated that Smith, on the outbreak of War in 1914, went with the Australian Army to assist in the capture of German New Guinea. Then with other Reservists, he was sent Overseas to join his old Regimental .Sargeant Rooke said that Corporal Smith left for France in February 1915, and after staying in Rouen for some time, was sent to the Front Line on 9th. March. It was during this time that the two formed a close friendship

There is a roll of the seaman who took part, and I wondered if there was a roll for the soldiers, too.

Had it been the case that he did actively participate, I would have thought he would have been obliged to enlist, and would have an AIF service record as a consequence. Given that he was in the army, reenlisting was not permitted. Had the army reservists of the British Army actively participated, they would have been entitled to the 1914-15 Star for this campaign.

He would have been mobilised on 5 August 1914, and he did not deploy to the Western Front until 23 February 1915. It is lucky that his British Army service record survived the 1940 fire.

So, the questions are: Can it be proven that he actively participated in any combat here? Is there evidence that he was on hand, as part of a reserve force, if reinforcements were needed? Keith H99 (talk) 12:16, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

He commenced his military service under Militia terms of service on 21 April 1904

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBM%2FWO96%2F1029%2F1522785

He then served under regular terms of service with the Manchester Regiment, his 12 years commencing on 2 September 1904. What is peculiar is that he enlisted in London, despite having previously moved to Manchester.

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F7273698%2F131%2F1438

It is most fortunate that these records have survived. Keith H99 (talk) 12:52, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Smith served eight years in the British Army and was a reservist when war broke out in 1914. He was immediately mobilized and sailed with the first convoy from Australia that left Western Australia on 1 November 1914. There were 38 Australian transports or troopships (36 from Albany and two from Fremantle) and 10 New Zealand transports. The convoy reached Alexandria on 3 December 1914 and the ships with British reservists continued to the UK. The troops of the Australian Naval and Military Expeditionary (ANMEF) Force were separate to the Australian Army special volunteer force known as the Australian Imperial Force. The ANMEF was not relieved until early 1915 and many men who were in Rabaul in 1914 did join the Australin Army after returning to Australia. It is worth a footnote that the claim has been made but it seems unlikely and there is no official documentation to support the statement that Issy Smith served in the ANMEF. Anthony Staunton (talk) 15:23, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

The AN&MEF departed Sydney on 19 August. The task force reached Rabaul on 11 September. The remaining German forces surrendered on 21 September. I am not seeing evidence of Imperial Reservists being sent there, then returned immediately after hostilities.

Issy Smith embarked SS Miltiades on 21 October 1914, this has come to light. This has been known since 2008.

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/76050-imperial-reservists/page/3/#comment-899978

It appears that it reached Plymouth on 22 December 1914. One eye-witness account mentions they were given four days furlough upon arrival, which I would imagine would be needed after two months cooped up on a troopship. The clerk has recorded on his army service record that Smith rejoined the regimental depot on 19 December 1914, but a date closer to 29 December seems more likely. Keith H99 (talk) 17:30, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

The troopship convoy was escorted by HMAS Australia. It is as though any and every action involving her has led to him being associated with the attack on German New Guinea. He was not there, HMAS Australia was. I saw a newspaper article of the time that referred to him witnessing the sinking of the Emden, which is not plausible. Keith H99 (talk) 17:33, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

The medal write-up was done in 1995 on a best endeavour basis. As mentioned, we know that he did not sail aboard HMAS Australia, neither to Plymouth, and certainly not from Southampton to Le Havre.

The write-up states he 'was among the substantial number of Manchesters wounded at Givenchy on 24 December, 1914' but sources presently available tell us that he did not arrive in France until 23 February 1915.

The write-up states 'He immediately joined up' but that was not possible, given he was already serving a 12 year contract under regular terms of service in the British Army.

It looks like it was on 16 October 1912 that he took the train to London, met his brother, and had the encounter with his wife-to-be. Keith H99 (talk) 17:43, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

To quote from earlier

'The ANMEF was not relieved until early 1915 and many men who were in Rabaul in 1914 did join the Australian Army after returning to Australia.'

Yes, I concur. Edmond Burke enlisted in the ANMEF on 11 August 1914. He was discharged on 4 March 1915 upon returning. On 11 March 1915, he enlisted in the RANBT and went to Gallipoli.

I believe it was the same for John Hartley Beton, James Edward Butler and Arthur William Houston Lang, to name but a few. Keith H99 (talk) 18:48, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

In conclusion, it appears there was a scoop that appeared in the Daily Mail. This became the "golden source" for provincial publications that regurgitated it, usually plagiarised, but attributed in at least one instance.

'V.C. hero from Australia Acting Corporal Issy Smith V.C. was a reservist of the 1st [Battalion] Manchester Regiment living in Australia when the war broke out. With an Australian force he assisted in the capture of German New Guinea.'

The primary sources from the Australian Military and the British Army service record do not support this assertion, and it has only been in recent years that these have become available. They were not there when the medal sales pitch was written up in 1995. Keith H99 (talk) 12:05, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Return to British Isles December 1914

Based upon the available data, as at the time of publishing, the following narrative appears

Chapter 10: Neuve Chapelle

The SS Miltiades sailed to Port Said, Egypt, where it parted with the Australian troopships before continuing on to England, reaching Plymouth on 22 December 1914. Issy's military records state that he had arrived in Ashton-under-Lyne thirteen days earlier [on 9 December 1914].1

1 Pittaway, A. (2011) "Imperial Reservists from Australia"

Source: Knight (2022)

Regarding footnote 1, Pittaway has mistaken the handwriting as having the date transcribed as '9th' as opposed to 19th.

There is no source as to where the arrival date of 22 December 1914 has come from. An arrival date of 18 December 1914 is recorded in the local press of Devon. Two of these newspapers became available, via the paywall of the British Newspaper Archive on 3 and 4 June 2024 respectively. The third newspaper cutting, used as the source in this wikipedia article, did not become available until 28 May 2025, so has only been in the public domain for less than two months. Keith H99 (talk) 16:02, 12 July 2025 (UTC)

In fact, it is Knight who has mistaken the handwriting as having the date transcribed as '9th' as opposed to 19th. The Pittaway article refers to a letter by an Imperial Reservist, who states that he had 4 days leave and disembarked on 22 December 1914. Keith H99 (talk) 08:36, 1 August 2025 (UTC)

The William Clearly letter is a Walter Mitty letter, the contents of which are contradicted by his surviving British Army service record.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/15577527?searchTerm=cleary

He arrived at his regimental depot on 19 December 1914. He was sent to France for the first time in April 1915. Just before he did, he sent a fantasy letter to a friend in Australia.Keith H99 (talk) 20:17, 1 August 2025 (UTC)

The death of Issy Smith on 10 Sep 1940

The biography states on the very first line of Chapter 37

In the early hours of Tuesday, 10 September 1940, Issy died.‡

There is a footnote to this

‡ The exact date of death is noted on both the record of Olive's call to the Repatriation Clinic and the attendance by the doctor on the death certificate. The State of Victoria's Registry of Births, Deaths and Marriages incorrectly records the date as 11 September 1940.

This biographical book, which I purchased in September 2024, has a ISBN of 978-1-92-573684-7 and is the only biography available on Issy Smith. This secondary source makes reference to two primary sources above.

The death date of 10 September 1940 is definitively carved on his headstone.

The death date of 10 September 1940 is quoted in an article about a commemorative event held 70 years later, and attended by Major-General Jeffrey Rosenfeld

@Kiwipete why would the above not be considered as reliable? What would motivate the family of Issy Smith to report a false date of death for this man? Is there not some sort of appeal that can be made for this differing of opinions? Keith H99 (talk) 22:38, 7 July 2025 (UTC)

@Keith H99 - I'm not sure what the problem is here. All I said was that you need to find a reliable source, which you seem to have done. I'm not sure why you state that "the above not be considered as reliable". I also don't know where the "differing of opinions" is. Kiwipete (talk) 23:44, 7 July 2025 (UTC)

@Kiwipete

You said there was no reliable source that Issy Smith died on 10 September 1940. I am of a different opinion, as I think that the biography is a reliable source.

You reverted my edit

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=September_10&oldid=prev&diff=1299331049

Can you please undo the revert, which you performed above, which you did in good faith. Keith H99 (talk) 23:49, 7 July 2025 (UTC)

When I reverted your edit, this is what I put in the edit summary - "New entries require an inline citation, please see WP:DOYCITE". That's all. It's up to you to include a reference to a reliable source. Kiwipete (talk) 23:54, 7 July 2025 (UTC)

There was an inline citation for his death, that being his biography.

you need to find a reliable source, which you seem to have done. Are you now saying that the biography published in 2022 is reliable?

BTW, I found it somewhat ironic that I discovered his true death date in mid-September, and added the source at that time.Keith H99 (talk) 00:02, 8 July 2025 (UTC)

The inline citation in the body of the article, refencing the 2022 bioography, has been in place since 14 September 2024, so I fail to see your objection. Keith H99 (talk) 23:31, 17 July 2025 (UTC)