Talk:History of Transylvania

RFC Demographics and historical research

Should the section on Demographics and historical research be

1. Deleted outright, with a new paragraph describing the dispute
2. Delete and the content moved to a new page
3. Keep

Slatersteven (talk) 16:12, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

A

It does not matter what other pages do, other pages are not POV-pushing messes of competing nationalist claims, this tells us nothing about the history of the country. NOte as well it does not seem to discuse the current demographics, but rather dubious historical trends. Slatersteven (talk) 16:18, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

The subject has enough coverage outside Hungarian or Romanian sources that it can be presented in enough detail and in a neutral manner for readers of all backgrounds. Adding one side's POV (or the other's, or both) has the opposite effect: it muddles the coherence, neutrality, and readability of the article. Aristeus01 (talk) 16:52, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

B

Move to new page, as this is impossible to cenzor the entire local, entire Hungarian and Romanian historiography regarding his own country. As it would be inevitable that future users would spread similar contents, in this case it would be a separate page for "researches" where we can present more academic scholar opinions as this is a hot topic. Also every countries has demographic section, that would be strange to cenzoring this. OrionNimrod (talk) 16:16, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

So, I absolutely support option B CriticKende (talk) 18:06, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Support. The length of the article is a problem. Gyalu22 (talk) 12:49, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

This is a very sensitive and much-discussed topic, which is why all academic aspects must be presented. Dear Slatersteven, you stirred up a typical Eastern European hornet's nest :), a confrontation of narratives, where there is no single truth, only parallel historical narratives living side by side. I cannot support an alternative (namely, the deletion of the section) that completely neglects the research of Hungarian mainstream historiography. The history of Transylvania belongs to the history of the Hungarians, as well as the history of the Romanians, which is why the presentation of the demography of the area from a historical perspective and the discussion of the controversial issues are essential to the understanding of the article. --Norden1990 (talk) 16:10, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Move to demographics or historiography of Transylvania. Leave a summary in the current section. Senorangel (talk) 02:43, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Discusion

I dont think it is a proper way, that in a big content removal of academic sources, only some users could decide who are right now are active in Wiki in these days. Because it is a really important topic (probably more important for the Romanian users, as I can see this in the internet), it is just matter of time but this demographic subject will exist. Most important is to present more scholar views and not be one sided.OrionNimrod (talk) 16:31, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

That is why we have an RFC, to attract more eyes, so please let them read the arguments above (in other threads) and make up their minds. Slatersteven (talk) 16:35, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

In my opinion, it would be a big mistake to delete this part because:

1.) Foreign sources do not report on the events in as much detail as local historians, who often dedicate their entire lives to researching this area. I believe the scientific value of the article would greatly diminish if we excluded them.

2.) This section is a crucial part of the article, with an important role in understanding the history of the region, so deleting it would be a mistake.

3.) I am specifically against deleting only one side, as the article (which is currently quite well-balanced) would tip in one direction, which is particularly undesirable on the wiki. Neutrality should be the primary consideration.

Therefore, I specifically recommend keeping the current state, perhaps with a few minor adjustments, but deletion would definitely not be a good solution. CriticKende (talk) 17:36, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

I would merge B and C, because both option is "keep" and A is "delete", it would be not fair to split the "keep" option. I think it does not matter much keep here the content or make a new article as links will do that. OrionNimrod (talk) 17:44, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Keep means keep in this article unchanged. Slatersteven (talk) 09:42, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Looking at the topic again, it seems to be another Origin of the Romanians debate that found its way outside that page. I don't think anything of importance will be lost by removing it, and if there is anything relevant that wasn't already said in the mentioned page then it can be added there. Aristeus01 (talk) 11:05, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

That is "demographic of Transylvania", not about "origin of Romanians". OrionNimrod (talk) 11:16, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

What's the difference? Aristeus01 (talk) 11:31, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

From the article about Transylvania "According to the results of the 2011 census, the total population of Transylvania was 6,789,250 inhabitants and the ethnic groups were: Romanians – 70.62%, Hungarians – 17.92%, Roma – 3.99%, Ukrainians – 0.63%, Germans (mostly Transylvanian Saxons and Banat Swabians, but also Zipsers, Sathmar Swabians, or Landlers) – 0.49%, other – 0.77%. Some 378,298 inhabitants (5.58%) have not declared their ethnicity.[82] The ethnic Hungarian population of Transylvania forms a majority in the counties of Covasna (73.6%) and Harghita (84.8%). The Hungarians are also numerous in the following counties: Mureș (37.8%), Satu Mare (34.5%), Bihor (25.2%), and Sălaj (23.2%)." that is the only demographic information we need. Asaw said, anything else is just nationalisitc puffery. Slatersteven (talk) 11:20, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Then "history of demographic of Transylvania" + "research" as the article is "history of" and not just "Transylvania", that is why I suggested, that make a new article for that as this is a hot topic. OrionNimrod (talk) 11:25, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

This is what we are discussing. So let's allow others the chance to chip in and have their say. Slatersteven (talk) 11:30, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

That is the only demographic information we need’ – with all due respect, I strongly disagree with this. Yes, if this were an article about modern Transylvania, then only current data would be sufficient. However, this is about the history of Transylvania, and the region has undergone significant ethnic changes. So, I believe it would be a major mistake to include only modern statistics. These ethnic changes must be mentioned when discussing the history of a region. CriticKende (talk) 11:33, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Slatersteven I agree in this form this article excessed the size balance, as the demographic research section is too long, however it is still part of the history of Transylvania, so easier to make from this section a separate article. Because this section is very long with many academic sources, it proves that is an important topic. I understand that you not interested in this topic, as I am also not interested thousands of articles, but it does not mean those topics should not exist, as Wiki is an encyclopedia, I just dont care with those topics. OrionNimrod (talk) 11:38, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi @OrionNimrod, I actually think it would be worth leaving this part in the article, as this issue is an integral part of the region's history. CriticKende (talk) 11:45, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

CriticKende, yes it is part of history, but as history of Hungary and history of Romania and other articles had many subarticles and wiki article size have limits. That is why I suggested the split. OrionNimrod (talk) 12:32, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

I didn't account for the length of the Wikipedia article. If it really exceeds the limit, I also support the creation of a new article. CriticKende (talk) 17:52, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

• Uninvovled Comment: The source of dispute seems to be that the sources themselves are POV/Nationalistic, but on a glance at the article the content in question is represented as part of a dispute as well as attributed to various scholars. Per WP:BIASEDSOURCES reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject. That said, the current section seems unreasonably long. The section is in dire need of editing and trimming down. There are nearly 4,000 words in the section, comparatively, the early modern section has about 2,000 words to it. The Middle Ages has betwen 8,000-9,000 words, and the Late Modern Period has around 3,000 words, and the contemporary history section only has around 2,500 words. So yeah, the section is given entirely too much article space.--Brocade River Poems (She/They) 20:54, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

  And if the sources are not POV/Nationalistic? Aristeus01 (talk) 07:42, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

  Then they're just sources. My comment was strictly to addressing the concerns that were being raised in the discussion that some of the sources were biased, so they should be discounted, but a source isn't considered unreliable simply because it is biased. Other than that, the section is entirely too long. Brocade River Poems (She/They) 02:16, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

  That is why we started in the past (agree with Aristeus) to attribute properly the sources,https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Attribution presenting more mainstream viewpoints. That is not surprising that not the Chinese/Australian/Spanish… historians will research this topic but the local Hungarian/Romanian historians. This is the nature of most other articles too, mostly they using local historian knowledge. OrionNimrod (talk) 09:32, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

  The agreement was on a different and much more obscure topic, where, to the best of my knowledge, there isn't much disagreement between Romanian scholars and, perhaps just as important, the one that wrote more about it is the president of the Academy. The topic here is a different story where I can see multiple scholarly POVs from the Romanian authors, so it would be improper to say "Romanian historiography" when there is no consensus. Aristeus01 (talk) 09:37, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

  I think it is not a big thing to properly attribute contents. Like majority historiography or minority views in a certain subject, or individual POVs and name the author. OrionNimrod (talk) 15:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Chronological order

Hi!

Not sure I understand why the paragraph for Vlachs in Hungarian documents is placed after the Mongol invasion. The dating for the first starts from 1223, the Mongol invasion took place in 1241. Aristeus01 (talk) 14:50, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Hi, I moved the timeline as requested, I think it is not necessary mark POV notification for a whole big chapter for such a minor thing. (Btw you moved earlier that section before the Hungarian conquest, before 800s...) OrionNimrod (talk) 19:52, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for making this change! Aristeus01 (talk) 11:29, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Spread of Christianity

Hi all!

I found a few new sources for this topic and I would like to move most of the content to a new page, leaving just a brief on this page. Adding this message here in case anyone wants to discuss the change. Aristeus01 (talk) 14:56, 25 December 2024 (UTC)