Talk:Gujarat Sultanate

Orphaned references in Gujarat Sultanate

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Gujarat Sultanate's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "GBP":

• From Mahmud Khilji: James Macnabb Campbell, ed. (1896). "II. ÁHMEDÁBÁD KINGS. (A. D. 1403–1573.)". History of Gujarát. Gazetteer of the Bombay Presidency. Vol. Volume I. Part II. The Government Central Press. pp. 242–243. {{cite book}}: |volume= has extra text (help) This article incorporates text from this source, which is in the public domain.
• From Gurjaras of Lata: James Macnabb Campbell, ed. (1896). "I.THE GURJJARAS (A. D. 580–808.)". History of Gujarát. Gazetteer of the Bombay Presidency. Vol. Volume I. Part I. The Government Central Press. pp. 114–120. {{cite book}}: |volume= has extra text (help) This article incorporates text from this source, which is in the public domain.
• From Bahadur Shah of Gujarat: James Macnabb Campbell, ed. (1896). "II. ÁHMEDÁBÁD KINGS. (A. D. 1403–1573.)". History of Gujarát. Gazetteer of the Bombay Presidency. Vol. Volume I. Part II. The Government Central Press. pp. 254–257. {{cite book}}: |volume= has extra text (help) This article incorporates text from this source, which is in the public domain.
• From Mahmud Begada: James Macnabb Campbell, ed. (1896). "II. ÁHMEDÁBÁD KINGS. (A. D. 1403–1573.)". History of Gujarát. Gazetteer of the Bombay Presidency. Vol. Volume I. Part II. The Government Central Press. pp. 244–251. {{cite book}}: |volume= has extra text (help) This article incorporates text from this source, which is in the public domain.
• From Muzaffar Shah I: James Macnabb Campbell, ed. (1896). "II. ÁHMEDÁBÁD KINGS. (A. D. 1403–1573.)". History of Gujarát. Gazetteer of the Bombay Presidency. Vol. Volume I. Part II. The Government Central Press. pp. 235–236. {{cite book}}: |volume= has extra text (help) This article incorporates text from this source, which is in the public domain.
• From Maitraka: James Macnabb Campbell, ed. (1896). "I. THE CHÁVAḌÁS (A. D. 720–956.)". History of Gujarát. Gazetteer of the Bombay Presidency. Vol. Volume I. Part I. The Government Central Press. pp. 85–86. {{cite book}}: |volume= has extra text (help) This article incorporates text from this source, which is in the public domain.
• From Muhammad Shah II: James Macnabb Campbell, ed. (1896). "II. ÁHMEDÁBÁD KINGS. (A. D. 1403–1573.)". History of Gujarát. Gazetteer of the Bombay Presidency. Vol. Volume I. Part II. The Government Central Press. pp. 241–242. {{cite book}}: |volume= has extra text (help) This article incorporates text from this source, which is in the public domain.
• From Bhimgad Fort: Bimgad Fort. Vol. 21. Bombay: Government Central Press. 1877. pp. 9, 552. Retrieved 2012-01-14. {{cite book}}: |work= ignored (help)
• From Ahmad Shah II: James Macnabb Campbell, ed. (1896). "II. ÁHMEDÁBÁD KINGS. (A. D. 1403–1573.)". History of Gujarát. Gazetteer of the Bombay Presidency. Vol. Volume I. Part II. The Government Central Press. pp. 242–244. {{cite book}}: |volume= has extra text (help) This article incorporates text from this source, which is in the public domain.
• From Muhammad Shah I: James Macnabb Campbell, ed. (1896). "II. ÁHMEDÁBÁD KINGS. (A. D. 1403–1573.)". History of Gujarát. Gazetteer of the Bombay Presidency. Vol. Volume I. Part II. The Government Central Press. p. 235. {{cite book}}: |volume= has extra text (help) This article incorporates text from this source, which is in the public domain.
• From Ahmad Shah I: James Macnabb Campbell, ed. (1896). "II. ÁHMEDÁBÁD KINGS. (A. D. 1403–1573.)". History of Gujarát. Gazetteer of the Bombay Presidency. Vol. Volume I. Part II. The Government Central Press. pp. 236–241. {{cite book}}: |volume= has extra text (help) This article incorporates text from this source, which is in the public domain.
• From Chavda dynasty: James Macnabb Campbell, ed. (1896). "I. THE CHÁVAḌÁS (A. D. 720–956.)". History of Gujarát. Gazetteer of the Bombay Presidency. Vol. Volume I. Part I. The Government Central Press. pp. 149–156. {{cite book}}: |volume= has extra text (help) This article incorporates text from this source, which is in the public domain.
• From Muzaffar Shah II: James Macnabb Campbell, ed. (1896). "II. ÁHMEDÁBÁD KINGS. (A. D. 1403–1573.)". History of Gujarát. Gazetteer of the Bombay Presidency. Vol. Volume I. Part II. The Government Central Press. pp. 251–254. {{cite book}}: |volume= has extra text (help) This article incorporates text from this source, which is in the public domain.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 13:22, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Gujarat Sultanate

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Gujarat Sultanate's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "majumdar":

• From Malwa Sultanate: Majumdar, R.C. (ed.) (2006). The Delhi Sultanate, Mumbai: Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, pp.173-86
• From Mahmud Shah III of Gujarat: Majumdar, R.C. (ed.) (2007). The Mughul Empire, Mumbai: Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, ISBN 81-7276-407-1 {{isbn}}: ignored ISBN errors (link), pp.391-8

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 08:42, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Origin

• Removed from article The sultanate's origins lie with two Tanka Rajput brothers by the name of Saharan and Sadhu who were from Thanesar (now in Haryana).

An IP told that the family was not Tanka Rajput but Tank Khatri converts to Islam. Need to investigated before readding.-Nizil (talk) 07:04, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

The founder of the Gujarat Sultanate was a Tank Khatri convert to Islam, not Rajput. This is known from all the primary & secondary sources added by the IP 49.. Upon checking the book on page number 183–185 - I find no mention of a Tank Rajput Muzaffar Shah I. However, the same book on page 120 says the sultanate was founded by a Tank Khatri.

I verbatim quote, "though the Gujarati historian Sikandar

does narrate the story of their ancestors having once been Hindu ‘Tanks’, a branch of Khatris who traced their descent from the dynasty of Ramachandra, whom the Hindus worship as God" (Page 120)

The primary source provided, the persian history of gujarat - the mirat-i-ahmadi on page 34 calls the founder of the sultanate a Tank Khatri too. Here is the link of the exact page number - https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.141998/page/n63/mode/2up

I will be re-adding the sources and information posted by IP 49.. assuming there are no further objections to this post. Hope this is fine with Nizil- Abh9850 (talk) 10:16, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

I have re-added all the sources along with adding new ones such as Page 46 of this book also states, "The founder of the sultanate of Gujarat , Zafar Khan , himself was a convert to Islam from a sect of Khatris known as Tanks" - I request all editors to see the sources if needed themselves. -Abh9850 (talk) 17:14, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Have not gotten any reply from Nizil on this issue. Meanwhile, I have added quotations from relevant pages of each source. Requesting editors to look at the sources and not make pre-emptive edit removals. Abh9850 (talk) 18:30, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

@Abh9850:, sorry, I had forgotten to reply. If academic sources says they were Tank Khatris, I am OK with it. Regards,-Nizil (talk) 05:07, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Can you stop vandalizing the page, HamirKalachuri? HamirKalachuri (talk). 10 sources have been cited and all of them refer to Sultan Muzaffar Shah as a Khatri by caste. A few of them have even been paraphrased by me above. Requesting experienced editors such as Sitush (talk) or LukeEmily (talk) to look into this repeated vandalism by anonymous IPs or recently created accounts.

Here all the sources with citations, page number wise.

1. Gunpower and Firearms: Warfare in Medieval India by Iqtidar Alam Khan – Page Number 57 says, Zafar Khan (entitled Muzaffar Shah) himself was a convert to Islam from a sub-caste of the Khatris known as Tank. Link to access the source: https://www.google.co.in/books/edition/Gunpowder_and_Firearms/s4PfAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1

2. Misra, S. C. (Satish Chandra) (1963). The rise of Muslim power in Gujarat; a history of Gujarat from 1298 to 1442. Page Number 137 says, Zafar Khan was not a foreign muslim. He was a convert to Islam from a sect of the Khatris known as Tank

3. Wink, André (2003). Indo-Islamic society: 14th - 15th centuries. Page Number 143 says Similarly, Zaffar Khan Muzaffar, the first independent ruler of Gujarat was not a foreign muslim but a Khatri convert, of low subdivision called Tank

Link to access the source: https://books.google.co.in/books?id=nyYslywJUE8C&newbks=0&printsec=frontcover&pg=PA143&dq=muzaffar+khan+tank+khatri&hl=en&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=muzaffar%20khan%20tank%20khatri&f=false

4. Kapadia, Aparna (16 May 2018). Gujarat: The Long Fifteenth Century and the Making of a Region. Page Number 120 says Gujarati historian Sikandar does narrate the story of their ancestors having once been Hindu ‘Tanks’, a branch of Khatris who trace their descent from the dynasty of Ramachandra

5. Ahmedabad From Royal City to Megacity By Achyut Yagnik · 2011 says Muzaffar Shah belonged to the Tank branch of the Khatri community of Punjab.

Link to access the source: https://www.google.co.in/books/edition/Ahmedabad/ivMAUx6Hdl8C?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=muzaffar+khan+tank+khatri&pg=PT22&printsec=frontcover

6. Historical Dictionary of Medieval India · 2008. Page number 107 says The founder of the Sultanate, Muzaffar Shah was a convert to Islam from a sect of the Hindu Khatris known as Tank.

link to access the source: https://www.google.co.in/books/edition/Historical_Dictionary_of_Medieval_India/pzZFUcDpDzsC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=muzaffar+khan+tank+khatri&pg=PA107&printsec=frontcover

Abh9850 (talk) 12:32, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

The other sources doesn't call him Punjabi khatri. Mirat i sikander calls him kshatriya in urdu version, the archive translated is sounding it like khatri, so no guarantee that it implies Punjabi khatri here a community which wasn't even found in Thanesar, Haryana in early medieval age. Had it been the case Satish Chandra would have mentioned him khatri, he doesn't calls him as such.

Source1: The Cambridge History of India: Turks and Afghans, edited by W Haig, year 1965 by Edward James Rapson, Sir Wolseley Haig, Sir Richard Burn, Page : 294

Description: The new governor was the son of a Rajput convert to Islam , Wajih - ul Mulk of Didwāna , governor of Nāgaur

Source 2: Journal of Oriental Studies, Volume 39, 1989 Page 120

Calls: Wajih- al - Mulk was , by birth a Hindu Rajput of " Tanka "

Source 3: Kapadia, Aparna (16 May 2018). Gujarat: The Long Fifteenth Century and the Making of a Region. Page Number 8

Description: " non-Muslim Tank Rajputs from Thanesar in northwestern India (modern-day)"

Link: https://books.google.co.in/books?id=qrxsDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA8&dq=aparna+kapadia+tank+rajput&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwicq7b_z9HyAhVQ-mEKHeOaDaIQ6AF6BAgKEAM#v=onepage&q=aparna%20kapadia%20tank%20rajput&f=false

Source 4: Confluence of Cultures: Hindu, Muslim, Buddhists & Jain mosque and Mausoleum by Syed Anwer Abbas in 2021. Description: Saharan of Rajput Tanka tribe from Thanesar Taluka, Sirhind Division married his sister to Firuz Shah Tughlaq, who bestowed wajih-ul-mulk on his brother-in-law Saharan. Zafar Khan, son of Wajih-ul Mulk who was initially appointed Governor

Link: https://books.google.co.in/books?id=Bys8EAAAQBAJ&pg=PT24&dq=confluence+of+culture+tanka+rajput&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjSo7DvwtHyAhVoQPUHHbsHCu0Q6AF6BAgCEAM#v=onepage&q=confluence%20of%20culture%20tanka%20rajput&f=false

Source 5: History of Gujarat Kingdom 1458-1537, page 4, author J Chaube, 1975

"Now Muhammad Shah appointed Zafar Khan son of Wajih - ul - Mulk , a Rajput convert"

Source 6: Journal of Indian History, volume 26-27, page 240, from 1949

It is generally accepted that Wajih - ul Mulk was a Tānk Rājpūt convert to Islam . Babar testifies to his Rajput origin in his memoirs.

Source 7: a Punjabi khatri writer Satish Chandra is itself admitting in Medieval India ( From Sultanat to the Mughals), PART ONE Delhi Sultanat ( 1206-1526) page 218, by Satish Chandra, 2004

" Zafar Khan whose father , Sadharan , was a Rajput who was converted to Islam"

Link: https://books.google.co.in/books?id=L5eFzeyjBTQC&pg=PA70&dq=satish+Chandra+Zafar+khan&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiS6c7VxdHyAhXBCIgKHbdEDt4Q6AF6BAgKEAM#v=onepage&q=Sadharan&f=false

Source 8: Concise History of Islam, Page 271, year 2011 by Muzaffar Husain Syed, Syed Saud Akhtar, BD Usmani

The Gujarat Sultanate was an independent kingdom established in the early 15th century in Gujarat. The founder of the ruling Muzaffarid dynasty, Zafar Khan a convert from Rajput"

Source 9: History of Medieval India, 2007, page 245, writer: VD Mahajan

"Zafar Khan, who was the son of Rajput convert, was appointed Governor of Gujarat in 1391 by Muhammad Shah, the youngest son of Firuz Tughluq."

Link : https://books.google.co.in/books?id=JnscEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA245&dq=mahajan+zafar+khan+rajput&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiD0bS2yNHyAhVHZd4KHeLTBtoQ6AF6BAgEEAM#v=onepage&q=mahajan%20zafar%20khan%20rajput&f=false

Source 10: The Muslim Diaspora - A comprehensive reference to the spread of Islam in Asia, Africa, Europe and the America, 570 - 1799, writer : Everett Jenkins, Jr, page 275, year 2010

Link: https://books.google.co.in/books?id=giEkCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA275&dq=jenkins+rajput+everett+zafar+khan&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiuo--0ydHyAhXLD94KHRkoBVsQ6AF6BAgJEAM#v=onepage&q=jenkins%20rajput%20everett%20zafar%20khan&f=false

Source 11: The Stepwells of Gujarat: In Art- Historical perspective, page 62, year : 1981 writer : Jutta, Jain-Neubauer

Description: He was appointed governor of Gujarat by Nasir - ud - din Muhammed Tughlak II ... Zafar Khan was believed to belong to the Tank group of Rajputs

Source 12: The legacy of Muslim Rule in India, Page 233. Year 1992 by Kishori Lal Saran Description: "son of wajih-ul-mulk a converted Rajput founded Kingdom of Gujarat"

Link: https://books.google.co.in/books?id=hxZuAAAAMAAJ&q=kishori+saran+lal+wajih-ul-mulk&dq=kishori+saran+lal+wajih-ul-mulk&hl=en&sa=X&sqi=2&pjf=1&ved=2ahUKEwjIkvfaz9HyAhXJXCsKHSQ5BFYQ6AF6BAgJEAM

Source 13: Mohammadan Dyn: Orientalism V 2 - volume 2, page -312 , writer Stanley Lane-Pool Description: "Zafar Khan the son of converted Rajput"

Link: https://books.google.co.in/books?id=5fDgAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA312&dq=stanley+pool+zafar+khan+rajput&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiz4bSSzNHyAhUaMN4KHcVPDvYQ6AF6BAgEEAM#v=onepage&q=stanley%20pool%20zafar%20khan%20rajput&f=false

Lastly, Tank is a prominent Rajput clan found in West UP, Haryana & Nagaur. You may even read colonial ethnographers. https://books.google.co.in/books?id=p- HamirKalchuri (talk) 16:41, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

References

Origin of Muzaffarids & who are Tanks?

The other sources doesn't call him Punjabi khatri. Mirat i sikander calls him kshatriya in urdu version, the archive translated is sounding it like khatri, so no guarantee that it implies Punjabi khatri here a community which wasn't even found in Thanesar, Haryana in early medieval age. Had it been the case Satish Chandra would have mentioned him khatri, he doesn't calls him as such.

Source1: The Cambridge History of India: Turks and Afghans, edited by W Haig, year 1965 by Edward James Rapson, Sir Wolseley Haig, Sir Richard Burn, Page : 294

Description: The new governor was the son of a Rajput convert to Islam , Wajih - ul Mulk of Didwāna , governor of Nāgaur

Source 2: Journal of Oriental Studies, Volume 39, 1989 Page 120

Calls: Wajih- al - Mulk was , by birth a Hindu Rajput of " Tanka "

Source 3: Kapadia, Aparna (16 May 2018). Gujarat: The Long Fifteenth Century and the Making of a Region. Page Number 8

Description: " non-Muslim Tank Rajputs from Thanesar in northwestern India (modern-day)"

Link: https://books.google.co.in/books?id=qrxsDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA8&dq=aparna+kapadia+tank+rajput&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwicq7b_z9HyAhVQ-mEKHeOaDaIQ6AF6BAgKEAM#v=onepage&q=aparna%20kapadia%20tank%20rajput&f=false

Source 4: Confluence of Cultures: Hindu, Muslim, Buddhists & Jain mosque and Mausoleum by Syed Anwer Abbas in 2021. Description: Saharan of Rajput Tanka tribe from Thanesar Taluka, Sirhind Division married his sister to Firuz Shah Tughlaq, who bestowed wajih-ul-mulk on his brother-in-law Saharan. Zafar Khan, son of Wajih-ul Mulk who was initially appointed Governor

Link: https://books.google.co.in/books?id=Bys8EAAAQBAJ&pg=PT24&dq=confluence+of+culture+tanka+rajput&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjSo7DvwtHyAhVoQPUHHbsHCu0Q6AF6BAgCEAM#v=onepage&q=confluence%20of%20culture%20tanka%20rajput&f=false

Source 5: History of Gujarat Kingdom 1458-1537, page 4, author J Chaube, 1975

"Now Muhammad Shah appointed Zafar Khan son of Wajih - ul - Mulk , a Rajput convert"

Source 6: Journal of Indian History, volume 26-27, page 240, from 1949

It is generally accepted that Wajih - ul Mulk was a Tānk Rājpūt convert to Islam . Babar testifies to his Rajput origin in his memoirs.

Source 7: a Punjabi khatri writer Satish Chandra is itself admitting in Medieval India ( From Sultanat to the Mughals), PART ONE Delhi Sultanat ( 1206-1526) page 218, by Satish Chandra, 2004

" Zafar Khan whose father , Sadharan , was a Rajput who was converted to Islam"

Link: https://books.google.co.in/books?id=L5eFzeyjBTQC&pg=PA70&dq=satish+Chandra+Zafar+khan&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiS6c7VxdHyAhXBCIgKHbdEDt4Q6AF6BAgKEAM#v=onepage&q=Sadharan&f=false

Source 8: Concise History of Islam, Page 271, year 2011 by Muzaffar Husain Syed, Syed Saud Akhtar, BD Usmani

The Gujarat Sultanate was an independent kingdom established in the early 15th century in Gujarat. The founder of the ruling Muzaffarid dynasty, Zafar Khan a convert from Rajput"

Source 9: History of Medieval India, 2007, page 245, writer: VD Mahajan

"Zafar Khan, who was the son of Rajput convert, was appointed Governor of Gujarat in 1391 by Muhammad Shah, the youngest son of Firuz Tughluq."

Link : https://books.google.co.in/books?id=JnscEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA245&dq=mahajan+zafar+khan+rajput&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiD0bS2yNHyAhVHZd4KHeLTBtoQ6AF6BAgEEAM#v=onepage&q=mahajan%20zafar%20khan%20rajput&f=false

Source 10: The Muslim Diaspora - A comprehensive reference to the spread of Islam in Asia, Africa, Europe and the America, 570 - 1799, writer : Everett Jenkins, Jr, page 275, year 2010

Link: https://books.google.co.in/books?id=giEkCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA275&dq=jenkins+rajput+everett+zafar+khan&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiuo--0ydHyAhXLD94KHRkoBVsQ6AF6BAgJEAM#v=onepage&q=jenkins%20rajput%20everett%20zafar%20khan&f=false

Source 11: The Stepwells of Gujarat: In Art- Historical perspective, page 62, year : 1981 writer : Jutta, Jain-Neubauer

Description: He was appointed governor of Gujarat by Nasir - ud - din Muhammed Tughlak II ... Zafar Khan was believed to belong to the Tank group of Rajputs

Source 12: The legacy of Muslim Rule in India, Page 233. Year 1992 by Kishori Lal Saran Description: "son of wajih-ul-mulk a converted Rajput founded Kingdom of Gujarat"

Link: https://books.google.co.in/books?id=hxZuAAAAMAAJ&q=kishori+saran+lal+wajih-ul-mulk&dq=kishori+saran+lal+wajih-ul-mulk&hl=en&sa=X&sqi=2&pjf=1&ved=2ahUKEwjIkvfaz9HyAhXJXCsKHSQ5BFYQ6AF6BAgJEAM

Source 13: Mohammadan Dyn: Orientalism V 2 - volume 2, page -312 , writer Stanley Lane-Pool Description: "Zafar Khan the son of converted Rajput"

Link: https://books.google.co.in/books?id=5fDgAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA312&dq=stanley+pool+zafar+khan+rajput&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiz4bSSzNHyAhUaMN4KHcVPDvYQ6AF6BAgEEAM#v=onepage&q=stanley%20pool%20zafar%20khan%20rajput&f=false

Lastly, Tank is a prominent Rajput clan found in West UP, Haryana & Nagaur. You may even read colonial ethnographers. https://books.google.co.in/books?id=p-lAAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA109&dq=tank+rajput+elliot&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiz2Jjd0NHyAhXP4mEKHY3dBkcQ6AF6BAgDEAM#v=onepage&q=tank%20rajput%20elliot&f=false HamirKalchuri (talk) 16:38, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Origin of muzaffarids

Gujarat sultanate was ruled by rajputs originally because if rajputs didn't support khatris .sultan mehmood begada get support of most of rajput cheifs of gujarat it's says that Gujarat sultanate was ruled by Muslim rajputs NATION01567 (talk) 17:40, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

War Criminal: Ottoman Turks

Gujarat Sultanate allowed war criminals society and empire like the "Ottoman Caliphate" to enter India.

Ottoman Turk arriving in India was as bad omen as the "British Raj".

India made some serious mistakes in its antiquity.

03:45, 27 June 2023 (UTC)03:45, 27 June 2023 (UTC)03:45, 27 June 2023 (UTC)43.242.178.1 (talk)\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\03:45, 27 June 2023 (UTC)03:45, 27 June 2023 (UTC)43.242.178.1 (talk)

Reliability of sources

@Noorullah21 the first source mentions that author is a lawyer by profession, and hence is not a WP:RS. The second source is not peer-reviewed. That of Abraham Eraly is better than either of the two, but he doesn't call Bahadur Shah an Afghan, and cannot be treated as authority for his ethnicity as Eraly is not discussing the origins of the dynasty. Such assumption about Bahadur Shah at best is a WP:FRINGE given that no source suggests that his ancestor, Muzaffar Shah I was an Afghan. Sutyarashi (talk) 19:46, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

@Sutyarashi Ok, all good. Noorullah (talk) 20:02, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Kalal POV pushing

@HilssaMansen19 and HockeyFanNHL: - First of all, there is no such thing as "their true origin" nor is this rewording appropriate, there is no academic consensus about the caste origin of Muzzafarids. The section has been completely changed to put an undue emphasis on the Kalal claim while removing the Tank Rajput claim and sidelining Khatri claim both of which are heavily cited and two major theories of their origin. The sources cited are also self published. You two must discuss your additions here and reach a consensus, instead of edit warring. Ratnahastin (talk) 01:08, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

There are no such academic claims that are Pre-British period. Most of the theories even cited now are of recent times. Meanwhile, records from Persian historians which were cited by several historians discussed on their Khummar origin which is Persian for Kalal.

Isn't it wrong to not add the proper links which are relevant rather than sidelining to present claims of recent times. Tank/Tak claim has been discussed in one source which suggests that it led to these recent origin claims as the origin is said to be Khummar/Kalal which has a Tak subcaste.

If there is an issue on emphasis, we can set aside the same and put all the theories and when Saharan Kalal is a name well published. So is the history of his sister marrying Ruler Tughlaq of that time, who is mentioned as a Kalal woman and sister of a man named Saharan, a wine-merchant.

If there will be more claims from let's say X people (heavily cited) then shall we ignore historical and academic history? There should not be pov of changing history by some new who want to be historians. HilssaMansen19 (talk) 08:56, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

source by Govt. Of India which debunks these modern historians in 1961. It says that these proud claims such as those cited are not with based when in history, it has been mentioned them to have been vinteners. You are claiming all of them? to be self cited?

this claim mention them of being Rajputana (state) and wrote them as Rajput next. No further research or even any other source cited

detailed mention

detailed mention

detailed mention

Academic and based on medieval history. HilssaMansen19 (talk) 09:19, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

Your additions are dubious, the previous content was neutrally written portraying all the views but now it simply states that this dynasty was Kalal. You must also stop edit warring. Orientls (talk) 11:59, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

@Ratnahastin you cited Aparna Kapadia, you can clearly see in her book she writes both the Tanks were of Rajput origin and she writes this line in her book: "According to Shaikh Sikandar Ibn Muhammad's Mirati Sikandari, who was a contemporary of Gujarat Sultans, Sadhāran was a Khatri of the Tank subdivision and had a long list of ancestors that eventually traced to Rāmacandra."

Now you decide and tell me which is true and which is not.

You can't just have two separate claims by one author and cite only one of the author's claim. HockeyFanNHL (talk) 13:35, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

@Orientls But you also make a statement where one sole author is saying the Tanks were Rajputs when others also have made claims. And the author you are citing (Aparna Kapadia) in the very same book, she wrote:

“This claim of the sultans' links with the solar lineage is not found very often in texts and inscriptions they patronised, though the Gujarati historian Sikandar does narrate the story of their ancestors having once been Hindu 'Tanks', a branch of Khatris who traced their descent from the dynasty of 'Ramacandra whom the Hindus worship as God' 62 The Tanks were expelled from their community, according to Sikandar, because they had taken to drinking wine. Muzaffar Shah's father and uncle were influential landholders and had the ability to summon thousands of horsemen and foot soldiers. Consequently, they managed to find service in Tughluq sultan, Firuz Shah's retinue, forge a marriage alliance with him, convert to Islam and eventually rise in the courtly ranks.63 The regional sultans were thus indigenous Muslims whose conversion had been a recent event.64 From Zafar Khan's early days in the province, he had been eager to display his commitment to the faith and encouraged the movement and settlement of religious leaders throughout the region."

It's better if you be neutral on considering both claims. HockeyFanNHL (talk) 14:29, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

There should not be pov of changing history by some new who want to be historians. - Are you now attacking scholars who disagree with the view that Muzzafarids were Kalals?

And are you seriously citing a census report from 1961 to "debunk" them? Familiarise yourself with WP:RS, these reports are not reliable at all in a contentious area like caste. Also the snippet views found through Google books keyword search are not helpful, why don't you provide full quotes? The second source is self-published by a known vanity press, it is not reliable for caste articles and it only states that they were Tanka Rajputs, if you were referring to Gahlot, Sukhvir Singh (1989) instead, even then atleast based on the visible snippet, it doesn't appear to have anything to do with this Muzzafarids, only stating that Kalals follow similar traditions to Rajputs, is there a WP:SYNTHESIS going onhere?

The third source only states that Saharan and his sister were Kalals. Your last source is reliable but it only states that the founder was Kalal as per seventeenth century writers:

Traditions which seventeenth-century writers incorporated in their works about the origin of the founders of the regional dynasties of Nagaur and Gujarat in the beginning of the fifteenth century not only shed light on the social mobility of low-caste converts to Islam but also hint that close contact with the Muslim élites could have attracted some Hindus towards Islam. According to these traditions, Zafar Khan, founder of the Sultanate of Gujarat and his brother, Shams Khan Dandani (who founded the principality of Nagaur) were the sons of Saharan, member of the Kalal caste.

This quote only proves that the origin of Muzzafarids is even more contentious than previously stated by the article. Academic sources are divided on this topic. Sources variously claim Saharan or his descendants to be Tanka Rajputs, Khatris and even Jats! Now, Kalals are another group to lay a claim to them.

In fact, Zafar Khan’s own father and uncle had been beneficiaries of this very system, as they had won the favour of the Delhi sultan, Firoz Shah, by supplying his military. These men, a certain Saharan and his brother Sadhu, were, most likely peasants or pastoralists, non-Muslim Tank Rajputs from Thanesar in northwestern India (modern-day Haryana). They encountered the prince Firuz Khan (who would later become Firuz Shah Tughluq) when he was separated from his retinue during a hunting expedition.......The currency of the Kshatriya status was so strong even in the fifteenth century that the powerful Muzaffarid sultans, self-proclaimed Muslim rulers who had access to several other avenues of expressing their political superiority and royalty, also chose to make claims on this identity. According to the account of seventeenth-century historian Sikandar Manjhu, which traces the sultans’ Rajput ancestry back by several generations, the Tanks belonged to the solar lineage, which linked them to the Puranic hero, Rama.

• Kapadia, Aparna (2018-05-16). In Praise of Kings Rajputs, Sultans and Poets in Fifteenth-century Gujarat. Cambridge, United Kingdom ; New York, NY: Cambridge University Press. p. 8-9. ISBN 978-1-107-15331-8.

You have misrepresented the above source with your edits , it does not even mention Kalals anywhere in the book. @HockeyFanNHL: - Instead of creating multiple sections, discuss this here. Aparna Kapadia discusses both Khatri and Rajput origin like I'm doing here, I merely restored the last stable version.

Ahmedabad in Gujarat received its great congregational mosque in 1423, though it had been a province of Delhi since 1297. It was built by Ahmad Shah, a converted Rajput, who, when governor, declared the province an independent sultanate in 1411

• Stein, Burton (2010-04-12). A History of India. Chichester, U.K. ; Malden, MA: John Wiley & Sons. ISBN 978-1-4051-9509-6. OCLC 459211897. Retrieved 18 May 2025.

The latter sultanate was founded by a former Tughluq governor, perhaps from a family of Punjabi Khatri converts, who took the title Muzaffar Shah in the early fifteenth century but reigned for only a short time.

• Subrahmanyam, Sanjay (2024-03-19). Across the Green Sea. Austin: University of Texas Press. ISBN 978-1-4773-2879-8.

Similarly, Zaffar Khan Muzaffar, the first independent ruler of Gujarat was not a foreign Muslim but a Khatri convert, of low subdivision called Tank, originally from southern Punjab.

• Wink, André (1990). Indo-Islamic society. Leiden Boston: BRILL. ISBN 978-90-04-13561-1.

What you should have done is added the Kalal claim to that section like everyone else has done over the years instead of removing the Rajput and Khatri claims which are backed by numerous scholarly sources and are two main theories of their origin instead of pushing for a Kalal POV based on selective reading of newer sources and misrepresentation of the existing ones. @Chariotrider555 and Sutyarashi: as they are one of the primary authors of the origin section. Ratnahastin (talk) 14:26, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

I agree with @Ratnahastin on this one. We must add all the claims. HockeyFanNHL (talk) 14:30, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

@Ratnahastin I think you are halfway missing the point of my edits. I was editing not only about the ancestry of the Tanks, but also about the marriage claim of Muzaffar Shah’s family with the Tughluq dynasty, which is a key part of how their rise in status and conversion to Islam is narrated. It’s not just a genealogical note—it directly ties into their political legitimacy and integration into the Delhi Sultanate elite. HockeyFanNHL (talk) 14:34, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

Already covered in the history section. This dispute pertains to origin. Orientls (talk) 15:37, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

I added all claims. I felt that @HilssaMansen19 was specifically trying to add only one claim while others tried to use only one claim of Aparna Kapadia while other historians too write about the Rajput lineage, and Kapadia cites the Gujarati historian's Tank claim of the Khatri people. HockeyFanNHL (talk) 16:30, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

You have put it well in the section and that's what I mentioned, new sources have different stories which differ from older ones. In GOI source, they mention that these proud claims differ from known history.

There are some in other languages as well but I found some of these particularly old ones but post-WP:Raj. There are many odd-sources mentioning the origin to be of Tanks of lower divisions of either caste. Tak Kalal tribe has been explained in tens of sources. Meanwhile, the new scholars do not cite any original sources like Persian ones. Zafar Khan has originally been told to belong to Khumar/Kalal tribe of Tak/Tank division (who identify as Rajputs per other GOI research) by Persian scholars. There are many such mentions. Overall, you have added it well.

there have been various claims about their origin from medieval to modern scholars and historians. this will provide an idea essence of the section. HilssaMansen19 (talk) 17:39, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

There are no medieval sources cited in either of the sources sent by @Ratnahastin. These are what you refer to as laying claims. There are many publications which are claiming that but that doesn't make a difference. If argument is about the medieval sources, Ziauddin Barani, specifically wrote their origin to be Khumars/araqis in Persian and other medieval writers described them as Kalal in Hindustani. This was also mentioned by Ibn Battuta. English source is

Who should we emphasise on first, medieval history mentions/claims or modern quoting Ratnahastin "self-published" ones? HilssaMansen19 (talk) 18:34, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

The section should be based on high quality academic sources, whose work is focused on the dynasty. The section should give the most prominent coverage to scholarly claims that are actively engaged with the sources they cite and discuss the dynasty's origins in some depth. Chariotrider555 (talk) 21:31, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

Aparna Kapadia- what is she trying to prove??

@Ratnahastin — You cited Aparna Kapadia as a source, but it's important to note that her book presents both claims regarding the origin of the Tank family. In the book In Praise of Kings: Rajputs, Sultans and Poets in Fifteenth-century Gujarat, Kapadia clearly states that the Tanks were of Rajput origin, and she also writes (on p. 120):

“This claim of the sultans' links with the solar lineage is not found very often in texts and inscriptions they patronised, though the Gujarati historian Sikandar does narrate the story of their ancestors having once been Hindu 'Tanks', a branch of Khatris who traced their descent from the dynasty of 'Ramacandra whom the Hindus worship as God' 62 The Tanks were expelled from their community, according to Sikandar, because they had taken to drinking wine. Muzaffar Shah's father and uncle were influential landholders and had the ability to summon thousands of horsemen and foot soldiers. Consequently, they managed to find service in Tughluq sultan, Firuz Shah's retinue, forge a marriage alliance with him, convert to Islam and eventually rise in the courtly ranks.63 The regional sultans were thus indigenous Muslims whose conversion had been a recent event.64 From Zafar Khan's early days in the province, he had been eager to display his commitment to the faith and encouraged the movement and settlement of religious leaders throughout the region."

This is the source:

If the source itself presents multiple perspectives or traditions, that nuance should be reflected in the article. It’s not a matter of deciding which is "true" and which is not, but acknowledging that historical narratives often contain competing or overlapping identities—especially in medieval genealogical traditions. Let’s ensure the source is represented accurately and in full context. HockeyFanNHL (talk) 13:38, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

References