Talk:Goy

Term or a slur?

Why is it that other "pejorative" words are classified a slur, but this remains a "term"? ~2025-33800-84 (talk) 13:58, 15 November 2025 (UTC)

shhhh stop noticing! W3ryfrate (talk) 20:59, 9 December 2025 (UTC)

Because if it said it was a slur that was sometimes pejorative it wouldn't make any sense. A slur is always, by definition, pejorative. Atrapalhado (talk) 00:41, 10 December 2025 (UTC)

I would disagree with that, terms such as the n-word which are definitely slurs are also used non-pejoratively as terms by people. ~2025-39917-19 (talk) 22:30, 10 December 2025 (UTC)

A better example would be the g word used to describe Roma people. Most folks aren't even aware that it's a slur. ~2026-30182-5 (talk) 20:28, 6 February 2026 (UTC)

This isn't really a fair comparison, because the n-word is mostly used to refer to others of the same group. "Goy" is used to refer to others outside the group. ~2026-36300-95 (talk) 14:47, 22 June 2026 (UTC)

Primary Talmudic passages referencing gentiles (goyim)

The following passages are quoted directly from standard English translations of the Babylonian Talmud.

Modern classifications: • Discriminatory — unequal legal treatment based on group identity • Neutral — descriptive or technical usage without clear unequal treatment • Potentially discriminatory — differential treatment stated in legal debate context

Tractate	Link	Exact translation snippet	Modern classification
Bava Kamma 113b	https://lite.sefaria.org/book/talmud-bava-kamma/chapter/113b/	"It is prohibited to rob a gentile, but it is permitted to retain his lost item, i.e., one is not required to return it to him."	Discriminatory — different property obligation based on group identity.
Bava Kamma 113b	https://lite.sefaria.org/book/talmud-bava-kamma/chapter/113b/	"It is permitted to retain the lost item of a gentile… it is only to your brother that you return a lost item, but you do not return a lost item to a gentile."	Discriminatory.
Bava Kamma 113b	https://lite.sefaria.org/book/talmud-bava-kamma/chapter/113b/	"Shmuel says that it is permitted to financially benefit from a business error of a gentile, i.e., it need not be returned."	Discriminatory.
Bava Kamma 113b	https://lite.sefaria.org/book/talmud-bava-kamma/chapter/113b/	"In a case where there is a concern that retention of an article lost by a gentile will result in the desecration of God’s name, it is prohibited even to retain a gentile’s lost item."	Differential but mitigating — acknowledges reputational harm as a limit.
Sanhedrin 57a	https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.57a?lang=bi&with=Translations	"If a gentile murders another gentile, or a gentile murders a Jew, he is liable. If a Jew murders a gentile, he is exempt."	Discriminatory — unequal criminal liability based on group identity.
Sanhedrin 57a	https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.57a.16?lang=bi&with=Translations	"...a gentile murders another gentile, or a gentile murders a Jew, he is liable. If a Jew murders a gentile, he is exempt."	Discriminatory.
Bava Metzia 24a	https://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Metzia.24a	"In a case when one found a lost item in a city where both Jews and gentiles reside..."	Neutral — descriptive legal scenario involving mixed population.
Bava Kamma 37b:12	https://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Kamma.37b.12?lang=en	"With regard to an ox of a Jew that gored the ox of a gentile... exempt from liability."	Discriminatory (explicit unequal tort rule by group).
Bava Kamma 37b	https://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Kamma.37b	"With regard to an ox of a Jew... gored the ox of a gentile... exempt from liability."	Discriminatory.
Bava Kamma 37b–38a	https://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Kamma.37b-38a	"With regard to an ox of a Jew... gored the ox of a gentile... exempt from liability."	Discriminatory.
Bava Kamma 114a	https://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Kamma.114a	"gentile courts as if it were the testimony of two witnesses?"	Discriminatory (differential evidentiary status by group).
Avodah Zarah 26a	https://www.sefaria.org/Avodah_Zarah.26a?with=Mishnah+Avodah+Zarah	"a woman may not seclude herself with gentiles because they are suspected..."	Racist/derogatory by modern definition (group-based suspicion / negative generalization).
Avodah Zarah 25a	https://www.sefaria.org/Avodah_Zarah.25a	"a woman may not seclude herself with gentiles."	Racist/derogatory by modern definition (categorical suspicion; implies danger/immorality).
Avodah Zarah 25b	https://www.sefaria.org/Avodah_Zarah.25b	"Telling a gentile that one is traveling to a farther destination..."	Neutral (interaction/risk management; not inherently pejorative in tone).
Avodah Zarah 25b:6–11	https://www.sefaria.org/Avodah_Zarah.25b.6-26a.2	"a woman may not seclude herself with a gentile..."	Racist/derogatory by modern definition (negative generalization).
Avodah Zarah 25b:3 (context sheet quoting the daf)	https://www.sefaria.org/sheets/694522	"a woman may not seclude herself with a gentile..."	Racist/derogatory by modern definition (group-based suspicion).
Shabbat 31a:5	https://www.sefaria.org/Shabbat.31a.5?lang=en&with=Navigation	"The gentile said to himself: I will go and convert..."	Neutral (narrative; not pejorative).
Bava Metzia 72a	https://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Metzia.72a	"the Jew can perform an act of acquisition on behalf of the gentile..."	Neutral (technical legal mechanics; not derogatory).
Bava Metzia 72a (with cross-links)	https://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Metzia.72a?with=Yoma	"If the gentile established it as a loan for him before he converted..."	Neutral (technical status timing; not derogatory).
Sanhedrin 59a	https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.59a	"gentile who studies Torah robs the Jewish people of it."	Racist/derogatory by modern definition (hostile moral framing of an out-group act).
Sanhedrin 59a:3	https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.59a.3?with=Introductions+to+the+Babylonian+Talmud	"gentile who studies Torah is like..."	Racist/derogatory by modern definition (degrading comparison; requires full line if you want maximal precision).
Sanhedrin 59a:2	https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.59a.2?lang=en&with=all	"gentile who studies Torah..."	Racist/derogatory by modern definition (out-group exclusion framing; paste full sentence if desired).
Sanhedrin 59a:16	https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.59a.16?with=all	"There is nothing that is permitted to a Jew and forbidden to a gentile."	Neutral / anti-derogatory (explicitly rejects asymmetrical permission, in that statement).
Gittin 61a:5	https://www.sefaria.org/Gittin.61a.5?with=Mishneh+Torah%2C+Gifts+to+the+Poor	"poor of the gentiles together with the poor of the Jewish people"	Neutral / anti-derogatory (includes gentiles in charitable support).
Gittin 61a (sheet quoting the daf)	https://www.sefaria.org/sheets/453852	"If an Israelite and a gentile stand before you to borrow... take precedence."	Discriminatory (explicit preference by group, even if framed as priority rules).
Yevamot 114a	https://www.sefaria.org/Yevamot.114a?with=Commentary+ConnectionsList	"gentile woman; and a child may suckle..."	Neutral (technical permissibility; not derogatory).
Bava Kamma 38a	https://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Kamma.38a	"With regard to an ox of a Jew that gored the ox of a gentile, the owner ... is exempt from liability"	Discriminatory (explicit unequal tort liability by group).
Bava Kamma 38a	https://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Kamma.38a	"whereas if a gentile's ox gores a Jew's ox, the owner is liable to pay the full cost"	Discriminatory (explicit unequal tort liability by group).
Eruvin 67b	https://www.sefaria.org/Eruvin.67b	"let them instruct a gentile to bring the warm water for him"	Discriminatory (legal rule structured around group difference); not necessarily derogatory.
Shabbat 121a:6	https://www.sefaria.org/Shabbat.121a.6	"It is prohibited to derive benefit from an action performed by a gentile for a Jew on Shabbat."	Neutral-to-discriminatory (group-based legal distinction; not derogatory in tone).
Shabbat 122a:7	https://www.sefaria.org/Shabbat.122a.7	"If a gentile collected grass on Shabbat for himself ... it is permitted for a Jew to benefit"	Neutral (technical Shabbat rule; not derogatory).
Shabbat 150a	https://www.sefaria.org/Shabbat.150a	"telling a gentile to do something that is prohibited for a Jew on Shabbat violates a ..."	Neutral-to-discriminatory (technical rule; not derogatory).
Shabbat 151a:2	https://www.sefaria.org/Shabbat.151a.2	"If a gentile brought flutes on Shabbat ... This is because ..."	Neutral (technical Shabbat rule; not derogatory).
Avodah Zarah 20a	https://www.sefaria.org/Avodah_Zarah.20a	"this issue of an undeserved gift to a gentile is itself a dispute between tanna'im."	Discriminatory (restriction framed by group status); not necessarily derogatory.
Avodah Zarah 64a	https://www.sefaria.org/Avodah_Zarah.64a	"It is prohibited to give a gentile an unpaid gift"	Discriminatory (group-based restriction).
Bava Metzia 71a	https://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Metzia.71a	"it is permitted to lend money to a gentile with interest."	Discriminatory (explicit rule by group).
Bava Metzia 71b	https://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Metzia.71b	"the borrower presented the second Jew to the gentile and the gentile agreed ... it is permitted."	Neutral (technical workaround; not derogatory).
Bava Metzia 71a	https://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Metzia.71a	"one of My people ... and a gentile both come to borrow money ... My people take precedence."	Discriminatory (explicit preference by group).
Gittin 47a	https://www.sefaria.org/Gittin.47a?lang=en	"a Jew and a gentile who purchased a field in partnership"	Neutral (descriptive; not derogatory).
Gittin 61a:5	https://www.sefaria.org/Gittin.61a.5?with=Mishneh+Torah%2C+Gifts+to+the+Poor	"poor of the gentiles together with the poor of the Jewish people"	Neutral/anti-derogatory (explicitly includes gentiles in charity practice).
Avodah Zarah 64a (festival proximity framing)	https://www.sefaria.org/Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Yoreh_De%27ah.148?with=Talmud	"On the three days before the festivals of gentiles the following actions are prohibited"	Discriminatory (group-based restriction; not necessarily derogatory).
Bava Kamma 113b	https://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Kamma.113b	"lost item, but you do not return a lost item to a gentile."	Discriminatory (unequal legal duty based on group); not necessarily “derogatory” in tone, but differential treatment.
Bava Kamma 113b	https://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Kamma.113b?with=Introductions+to+the+Babylonian+Talmud	"allow him to leave the gentile's jurisdiction."	Neutral (jurisdictional descriptor).
Bava Kamma 113a:21–22	https://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Kamma.113a.21-22?lang=en&with=Notes	"The mishna issues its ruling with regard to a gentile customs collector, whom one may deceive"	Discriminatory (permits deception toward a gentile, even if limited to “customs collector”).
Bava Kamma 113a:21	https://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Kamma.113a.21	"Rav Ashi said: The mishna issues its ruling with regard to a gentile customs collector, whom one may deceive"	Discriminatory.
Sanhedrin 57a	https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.57a	"if a gentile murders another gentile, or a gentile murders a Jew, he is liable. If a Jew murders a gentile, he is exempt."	Discriminatory (explicit unequal homicide liability by group); also derogatory in modern moral sense (out-group life valued differently by law).
Sanhedrin 57a:14 (Hebrew “goy” present; translation snippet not fully surfaced here)	https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.57a.14	"גּוֹי בְּגוֹי וְגוֹי בְּיִשְׂרָאֵל אָסוּר, וְיִשְׂרָאֵל בְּגוֹי מוּתָּר."	Discriminatory (text states asymmetrical permissibility rules by group); translation should be inserted from a stable edition if required.
Avodah Zarah 62a	https://www.sefaria.org/Avodah_Zarah.62a	"MISHNA: In the case of a gentile who hires a Jewish laborer to work with wine used for an idolatrous libation with him, his wage is forbidden"	Discriminatory (group-based restriction; not necessarily derogatory).
Bava Metzia 71a	https://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Metzia.71a	"one should not lend money to a gentile with interest? The reason is that perhaps the Jew will learn from the gentile’s actions."	Racist/derogatory (negative generalization about “gentile” behavior as morally corrupting); also discriminatory (special restriction).
Bava Metzia 70b	https://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Metzia.70b	"“Unto a gentile tashikh” ... it is permitted for a Jew to take interest from a gentile"	Discriminatory (explicit financial rule by group).
Bava Metzia 75b	https://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Metzia.75b	"“You may lend to a gentile with interest, but to your brother you shall not lend with interest”"	Discriminatory (explicit group-based rule).
Bava Metzia 61b	https://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Metzia.61b	"one who attributes ownership of his money to a gentile and thereby lends it to a Jew with interest."	Neutral-to-discriminatory context (gentile used as a legal workaround category; not overtly derogatory in tone).
Mishnah Bava Metzia 5	https://www.sefaria.org/Mishnah_Bava_Metzia.5	"with regard to a gentile ... [ger toshav] ... one may borrow money from him with interest and lend money to him with interest, since he is not a Jew."	Discriminatory (explicit legal distinctions by group status).
Bava Metzia 24a (mixed-population context)	https://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Metzia.24a?lang=bi	"gentile guards or custodians are sitting."	Neutral (descriptive).
Shabbat 122a:5	https://www.sefaria.org/Shabbat.122a.5	"If a gentile kindled a lamp on Shabbat for his own purposes, a Jew also uses its light; and if the gentile kindled it for a Jew, the Sages ..."	Neutral-to-discriminatory (legal distinction based on intent and actor; not derogatory).
Shabbat 122b	https://www.sefaria.org/Shabbat.122b	"A certain gentile came and kindled a lamp. Shmuel turned his face back away ..."	Neutral (narrative; no explicit negative generalization in snippet).
Gittin 45b	https://www.sefaria.org/Gittin.45b?lang=en	"an incident involving a gentile in Tzaidan who would write Torah scrolls, and Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel permitted the Jews to purchase the Torah ..."	Neutral/positive (gentile portrayed as skilled scribe; permission granted).
Gittin 44a	https://www.sefaria.org/Gittin.44a	"if the slave cannot be retrieved from a gentile, it should be permitted for him to take money in return."	Neutral (legal situation involving gentile ownership; not an insult).
Mishnah Pesachim 2:2	https://www.sefaria.org/Mishnah_Pesachim.2.2	"It is permitted for a Jew to derive benefit from leavened bread of a gentile"	Neutral-to-discriminatory (group-defined rule; not derogatory in tone).
Pesachim 30b	https://www.sefaria.org/Pesachim.30b	"MISHNA: If a gentile lent money to a Jew, and the Jew gave him leavened bread as collateral until after ..."	Neutral (legal scenario).
Pesachim 29a	https://www.sefaria.org/Pesachim.29a	"one who eats leaven of a gentile over which Passover has elapsed"	Neutral (legal scenario).
Yevamot 17a	https://www.sefaria.org/Yevamot.17a	"Consequently, all children born to Jews from gentile women are not ..."	Discriminatory (status rules based on parentage/ethnic boundary); can be experienced as derogatory depending on full continuation.
Yevamot 47a	https://www.sefaria.org/Yevamot.47a	"gentile, but you are not deemed credible in order to render your children unfit."	Neutral (procedural credibility/legal status discussion).
Sanhedrin 57 (range page)	https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.57	"If a gentile engages in intercourse with those Jews with whom relations are forbidden, he is judged according to the halakhot of the Jews."	Discriminatory (differential legal framework by group; not inherently derogatory in tone).

"sometimes in a pejorative sense"

The word sometimes needs to be changed to often. The dictionary definition cited literally has the word often. The article doesn't match the citation. ~2026-44874-7 (talk) 13:15, 2 February 2026 (UTC)

Three dictionaries are cited. One says 'often'. One says 'sometimes'. And one doesn't comment on its use as a pejorative. I think the current wording is fine. Atrapalhado (talk) 16:38, 3 February 2026 (UTC)

you sound like someone who uses the term "goy" offensively ~2026-44874-7 (talk) 02:23, 7 February 2026 (UTC)

why did you delete the Talmud references, labeling them as vandalism. I looked them up and the editor quoted properly? ~2026-85763-6 (talk) 05:47, 8 February 2026 (UTC)

@~2026-85763-6 because that's not what talk pages are for Atrapalhado (talk) 08:36, 8 February 2026 (UTC)

@Atrapalhado Just so you know, this page has been canvassed. – LuniZunie_(talk) 16:15, 9 February 2026 (UTC)

I've known many Jews in my lifetime, and they have always maintained that Goy is a slur. Saying that is only "sometimes in a pejorative sense" in the current month and year seems like a coordinated effort to change the narrative in light of certain documents that recently came out. Namelesswalaby (talk) 18:55, 6 February 2026 (UTC)

Slurs are by definition offensive; if a word is used to refer to a group of people, and that group of people are offended by being referred to by that word, then that word is a slur. saying otherwise, regardless of someone’s offensive, invalidates that party’s experience. ~2026-83179-0 (talk) 22:43, 6 February 2026 (UTC)

which is why this article needs rewritten to more emphasis the use as a slur and take less emphasis on Jews crying over people knowing about the word ~2026-44874-7 (talk) 02:24, 7 February 2026 (UTC)

And who speaks for that group of people? ~2026-21153-51 (talk) 06:57, 6 April 2026 (UTC)

Goy is not necessarily always a slur, so it should not be "often," just sometimes. Andre🚐 21:06, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

(Personal attack removed) W3ryfrate (talk) 14:31, 26 February 2026 (UTC)

What does that mean? Andre🚐 18:08, 26 February 2026 (UTC)

According to the strict law of the Torah, not one gentile in the world deserves to live. It is a always a slur LiquidLenin (talk) 20:32, 6 April 2026 (UTC)

Not true at all Andre🚐 21:31, 6 April 2026 (UTC)

Talmud

why is there no section discussing the use of goy in the Talmud? ~2026-91721-1 (talk) 19:10, 10 February 2026 (UTC)

Incomprehensible explanations have been given to conceal this filth (GOYIM). It's a complete disgrace. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ~2026-91841-1 (talk) 20:25, 10 February 2026 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 February 2026

The line in the first block of text

sometimes in a pejorative sense

Should be changed to

often in a pejorative sense

This more closely aligns with the cited sourced definition of the term. 2\3 sources say it is often used as a pejorative and thus the article should reflect that. ~2026-97172-7 (talk) 21:27, 12 February 2026 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before posting an edit request. Day Creature (talk) 23:38, 12 February 2026 (UTC)

Do it as the current article is promoting misinformation and acting as an apologetic shield. ~2026-28299-42 (talk) 17:36, 10 May 2026 (UTC)

Talmud Interpretation

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

The Talmud itsself directly defines the term "Goy/Goyim" as meaning "Sub-Human Cattle" when translated. Not "Nation" or the latter "Gentile" meaning Pagan/Heathen. But here are a few other statements made in direct reference to "Goy/Goyim"

Baba Mezia 144b "Goys are not humans, they are beasts" Abodah Zarah 22a-22b "Goys prefer sex with cattle." Tospoth Jebamoth 84b "If you eat with a goy, its the same as eating with a dog." Soferim 15 "Even the best of goyim should be killed."

There are many more, I could go on all day. I have absolutely no idea why its constantly being lied about, especially when it literally says in The Talmud to lie about what it means. And that its okay to lie to us about it. ~2026-10265-06 (talk) 21:02, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

 Not done This is generally taken out of context and is misleading. For example, the quote about goyim being killed refers to a time of war and the specific context of the author's relationship to the Romans. There are probably good explanations for the other quotes too, though I don't know offhand. But in general, quotations about how the Talmud is derogatory about gentiles should not be added. Aside from their general lack of context or mistranslations in some cases, the Talmud is not a linear text or an authoritative work, but it is basically an ancient log of disputes and debates among rabbinic authorities, like an ancient discussion board. So any given out of context statement should not be held up as Jewish belief. Andre🚐 21:05, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

"This is generally taken out of context and is misleading. For example, the quote about goyim being killed refers to a time of war and the specific context of the author's relationship to the Romans."

Categorically, it refers directly to the Jewish opinion on Non-Jews.

"There are probably good explanations for the other quotes too, though I don't know offhand."

This statement alone proves the direct lack of sincerity and the Zionist policy of Wikipedia and its editors.

"But in general, quotations about how the Talmud is derogatory about gentiles should not be added."

Why not? There is no valid reason why this overtly and exclusively derogative term designed as a label for those Jews consider to be beneath them isn't accurately listed as such.

"Aside from their general lack of context or mistranslations in some cases, the Talmud is not a linear text or an authoritative work, but it is basically an ancient log of disputes and debates among rabbinic authorities, like an ancient discussion board. So any given out of context statement should not be held up as Jewish belief."

This is paraphrased, but its almost the exact lie The Talmud instructs the Jews to give out in direct response to anyone questioning their use of the derogative term or what it means. Stating its a mistranslation is also massively inaccurate.

The only sources disputing the truth regarding The Talmud and the definition of the term Goyim are Jewish/Israeli Owned and/or Funded. This statement is easily verifiably to anyone who has 5 minutes of time to do a little bit of research. With Wikipedia being a prime example. ~2026-10265-06 (talk) 21:12, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

So, the Talmud does not "instruct Jews" to "give out a lie," and even if it did, that would be a WP:PRIMARY source. You need a reliable WP:SECONDARY source that is WP:RS for your assertions. And your accusations are personal attacks and show you are not familiar with Wikipedia policy. Do not repeat that, or it will lead to a block. Andre🚐 21:18, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

So if I give a secondary source its not valid and needs to be primary, but if I give a primary source that's also not valid and needs an secondary source which is arbitrarily valued as reputable depending on who moderates the page?

Quote my personal attack word for word... I simply never made a personal attack against anyone and I honestly challenge you to prove it. ~2026-10265-06 (talk) 21:24, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

Huh? No, you need to give a secondary source. A primary source can't be used for interpretation, and the Talmud doesn't say that anyway. And if you aren't aware why your previous statement contained personal attacks, then I guess you'll have to learn that the hard way. Andre🚐 21:27, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

"Guess you'll have to learn that the hard way."

Or you could just explain what you think constituted a personal attack and I can further clarify what it actually means. I didn't make a single statement attacking anyone, everything I said was the direct truth. That being said, why can't a primary source be used for interpretation when the primary source literally gives direct instructions on how it's meant to be interpreted and what it means? ~2026-10265-06 (talk) 21:30, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

Your accusation that volunteer editors are acting out some kind of umbrella Jewish funding, or systemic policy is indeed a personal attack. It should be obvious that I am a volunteer, and I have yet to receive that George Soros check or whatever. So do not make that attack again, or it will lead to a block. As far as sourcing, yes, you need a secondary source for interpretation. You cannot cite the Talmud directly, and aside from which, it does not say what you claim it says. That is just a common online misinterprative trope that is circulating thanks to conspiracy theorist commentators like Candace Owens. They are nut jobs and they cannot be used here. Andre🚐 21:33, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

"Your accusation that volunteer editors are acting out some kind of umbrella Jewish funding, or systemic policy is indeed a personal attack. It should be obvious that I am a volunteer, and I have yet to receive that George Soros check or whatever. So do not make that attack again, or it will lead to a block."

I never made an accusation. You're a volunteer editor who has to follow the rules set by the Jewish funded organization that is "Wikipedia." That isn't a personal attack, that is a fact. ~2026-10265-06 (talk) 21:35, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

Side note, you said "The Talmud doesn't say that anyways" I can pull one of the many books of The Talmud off a shelf behind me and prove directly that it says everything I said. I don't believe you should be editing this page or even part of the conversation if you haven't read The Talmud because immediately that brings your expertise into question. No doubt you know a thing or two about software, you should stick to editing those pages, not pages on a religion you know little to nothing about. I'm Jewish according to Halakha but Christian by choice, I know exactly what I'm talking about. ~2026-10265-06 (talk) 21:33, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

The Talmud takes years to read in full. I would not claim to have extensively studied it. It is, as I said, more of a historical reference work and not something with daily relevance. I attended a synagogue for many years and the Talmud was not mentioned once, because it is not of daily relevance to Jewish observance as the Torah and Tanakh are. Andre🚐 21:34, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

OH WOW... Okay... okay okay okay okay... I'm going to genuinely need to stop you right there because Judaism hasn't followed the Torah since the Second Temple Era and the Talmud became the core pillar of Judaism in 500AD. The Tanakh and Torah are completely useless beyond display pieces in Modern Rabbinic Judaism and this is simply just a fact, this isn't even debatable. You're regurgitating the same exact lies the Talmud tells Jews to regurgitate whenever questioned by "Human Cattle" which is exactly what Goy/Goyim means. ~2026-10265-06 (talk) 21:37, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

I mean, that is just a silly and provably false statement, and you continuing to accuse me of lying is also a personal attack. I'm going to give you another warning for that. As far as your assertions, I note nothing about WP:RS to support your statement. Personally, I was called to the Torah as a Bar Mitzvah, so I think I know a couple of things about it. The rabbi would do a sermon every week on Torah portions. I had a haftarah as well. Studying Torah is the main activity of most yeshivas or institutions such as the Pardes Institute of Jewish Studies, which I visited once. You appear to be highly misinformed, and I suggest you cease and desist this line of argumentation or you will soon be blocked. Andre🚐 21:40, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

Now I will make my first personal attack in this thread... You are a literal snowflake who doesn't like when the truth he's been told to hide is put infront of him. You're vehemently in denial and provably lying about multiple things, saying you're lying isn't a "Personal attack" whether you're lying or not, it just so happens that in this instance you are. Nothing I said is silly nor is it provably false, its demonstrably true and documented.

Either way, I can't win a debate on Judaism against a Jew who's spent his entire life being categorically taught to lie about what Judaism is. That's basically the equivalent to talking to a brick wall. I'm definitely not "Highly misinformed" the direct opposite is true. ~2026-10265-06 (talk) 21:44, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

If the Talmud doesn't say that... then you need a reliable WP:SECONDARY source that is WP:RS for your assertions. ~2026-10265-06 (talk) 21:45, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

Asking white supremacists if ‘wog’ is derogatory.

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

From the article “the extent to which goy is derogatory is a point of discussion in the Jewish community.” Since when do we leave the classification of a word as derogatory or not to the groups using it? It is like asking white supremacists if “wog” should be considered a slur. What a terrible article, you can even taste the double standard. ~2026-22325-78 (talk) 20:51, 10 April 2026 (UTC)

It's equivalent to "the extent to which n*gger is derogatory is a point of discussion in the White community." ~2026-23226-26 (talk) 21:27, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

Not really, no. The N word being considerably more offensive that it can often not be used politely, though it is used positively in certain slang such as in AAVE, or in gangster rap. But fundamentally the N word being something that originated as very offensive and has become somewhat less offensive in certain contexts, or reclaimed. Goy originated as a term for the "nations" i.e. the gentiles, and was not originally offensive but merely a description of the world from the perspective of often observant and insular Jewish communities who had to avoid unkosher things or in some cases persecution and segregation. And over time some have seen the term goy come to be used in a slightly derogatory way, but this is often claimed by anti-Jewish groups. The big difference is that the N word was used by the outgroup to describe the black slaves or freed persons in a clearly negative way and eventually evolved into a slang term that is sometimes used positively or neutrally, but still has a very negative racist usage by the outgroup. The term goy originates as an ingroup term used to distinguish the outgroup, and some people in the outgroup claim it is offensive, and in some cases there is disagreement within the Jewish community about whether it is offensive. But the comparison to the N word in terms of scope, circumstance, and conditions is not apt. There would be widespread agreement on many uses of the N word being offensive that can't be applied to the word goy, which can be used casually, comedically, self-deprecatingly, etc., contrast/compare shiksa. The article could be clearer on this point. Andre🚐 23:54, 16 April 2026 (UTC)

It seems from your profile that you are a Jew. If this is true, you shouldn't make claims about the offensiveness of the word "goy" since you aren't a target of the word (equivalent to non-blacks dismissing the offensiveness of the n-word). In fact, minimizing the hatefulness of the word (such as by committing the etymology fallacy, which ironically could also be applied to the n-word) is actively perpetuating harm. (If you aren't a Jew and I'm misreading your profile, then my apologies.) ~2026-23226-26 (talk) 06:04, 20 April 2026 (UTC)

That's not how it works on Wikipedia. You need reliable sources for your assertions. A determining factor is not the identity of editors on the talk page (ad hominem, see WP:NPA). I laid out why I don't think the N-word comparison is apt. The term goy is a biblical term used by Jews to refer to non-Jews. The word can be used in the context of Jewish people living as an oppressed minority in the ghetto and dealing with restrictions imposed by Christian society. As opposed to the usage of the N-word being used to oppress the group. These are historical facts. Goy has been coopted now. See white supremacists have co-opted it to refer to themselves in a shocking example of linguistic appropriation. By incorporating it, and other Yiddish terms, into their nationalist lingo, they perpetuate the anti-Semitic myth that we are a cabal with our own secret language and agenda. “The Goyim Know” is a catch-phrase used to mock Jews by using pseudo-Yiddish phrases to impersonate them by “exposing” the Jewish “ conspiracy. “Oy vey, it’s anudda Shoah” and “oy vey, the goyim know, shut it down” are just two examples often found on social media in comments and on memes. Using the word goy in a news headline simply reinforces the “Jews run the media” and “Jews run the world” tropes. As though getting Bannon fired was all part of our sinister plot for worldwide domination. So it's the opposite of the N-word, which was reclaimed into a context that makes it an empowering word, while goy has been reclaimed by white supremacists as an oppressive word. Andre🚐 18:35, 20 April 2026 (UTC)

Non-whites also sarcastically use the word "goy" to critique Jewish supremacism (which is incredibly widespread in America and Israel, despite how much you might wish deny it) and power structures. It's very ironic how you focus so heavily on Whites when "goy" refers to both Whites and Non-whites alike. What is wrong with "goyim" reclaiming an insult that is clearly directed towards them? Also you didn't address my point anyway and falsely claimed a personal attack when I have nothing against you as a person and am merely trying to improve the quality of the article. It's reasonable for me to ask if you are a Jew since it seems from your edit history that you mostly edit Jewish related articles, and if you are a Jew then dismissing the hurtfulness of the word "goy" just because your group uses it is insensitive and suggests that you are more interested in pushing an agenda than in improving the quality of the encyclopedia. ~2026-23226-26 (talk) 06:46, 21 April 2026 (UTC)

Talking about how I must be pursuing a Jewish agenda simply because I pointed out that goy isn't always an offensive term, which is well-established by previous discussions and sources, is also a personal attack. That is prohibited here. If you have a real proposal to edit the article you may, but engaging about my identity and agenda pushing here will not work, and is against the Wikipedia process. Andre🚐 06:58, 21 April 2026 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 April 2026

Change “Goy” or “Goyim” definition, to include the distinction regarding this being hate speech, when defining this blatant discriminatory term. ~2026-25129-88 (talk) 02:56, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want made. DiscoursesonLivvy (talk · contribs) 03:13, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

“The difference between a Jewish and a non-Jewish

person stems from the common expression: ‘Let us

differentiate.’ Thus, we do not have a case of profound

change in which a person is merely on a superior level.

Rather, we have a case of ‘let us differentiate’ between

totally different species.”

“This is what needs to be said about the body: the body

of a Jewish person is of a totally different quality from

the body of [members] of all nations of the world … The

difference in the inner quality between Jews and non-

Jews is so great that the bodies should be considered as

completely different species.”

“An even greater difference exists in regard to the soul.

Two contrary types of soul exist, a non-Jewish soul

comes from three satanic spheres, while the Jewish soul

stems from holiness.”

“As has been explained, an embryo is called a human

being, because it has both body and soul. Thus, the

difference between a Jewish and a non-Jewish embryo

can be understood.” ~2026-28299-42 (talk) 17:38, 10 May 2026 (UTC)

All quotes from Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson of Chabad, perhaps the most influential Rabbi of the 20th century. ~2026-28299-42 (talk) 17:40, 10 May 2026 (UTC)