Talk:Female submission

Spam

Removed some obvious advertisments. -- 17:49, 25 January 2007 85.166.228.70

BDSM article?

This document is having an identity crisis. It is about primarily about a Consensual, Sexual, Female, Submission document. But Female Submission is a GIANT topic. I suspect the best course of action is to break this into many articles.

But it seems the huge amount of conflict on this topic, and the desire to control the narrative, prevents any serious articles. I certainly wont be writing one, only to have it be deleted. ~2025-41720-62 (talk) 15:27, 3 January 2026 (UTC)

Is the definition of patriarchy correct? I doubt it

The article states:

"When female subservience occurs as a consequence of a social system in which males, either as fathers or husbands, hold legal or de facto authority and power over related women, children, and household property, the arrangement is generally known as patriarchy."

Although this is certainly the case in many fundamentalist religious environments, where women support the role of procreation and through their subservience the expansion of the religion, that is not an accurate or even correct definition of patriarchy. Because when a women is only occasionally sexually subservient, to ease the female barriers to love making, in an otherwise equal relationship, it is just not the same a patriarchy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.14.141.127 (talk) 17:24, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

The quote you've given pretty clearly states that when a man has legal authority/power of women that it is called patriarchy. The article does not seem to claim that general sexual subservience is patriarchy.AerobicFox (talk) 18:44, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

"Partiarchy"

Why is it linked, and further why isn't it called the patriarchy hypothesis? there's no proof that it exists, therefore it's not a theory. In a few days I'll remove the link because it's irrelevant, misleading, and insulting. Bumblebritches57 (talk) 00:40, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

"Theory" is a term used to speak about a predominant idea. Feminists called "Patriarchy" a theory to give it credence. Accademia is predominantly a feminist community, so they have strengthen this claim. But currently, less then 30% call themselves feminists, while 60% say they're for equal rights. No studies that I know of, speak to the prevalence of "Radical Feminism" vs "Feminism." Radical Feminism are those who believe in the patriarch, and some put it at 6%. ~2025-41720-62 (talk) 15:16, 3 January 2026 (UTC)

If only 6% of humans believe in "Patriarch Theory" that would put it in very poor standing as a theory. But again, this isn't a fair discussion. Accademia has a predominant voice in this. If this should be the case, then that is a separate discussion.

So it is a debate between Common, or Academic language, vs the reality of the lack of support it receives. ~2025-41720-62 (talk) 15:22, 3 January 2026 (UTC)

Insulting and misleading

I'm not going to bother trying to actually fix this article since past experience leads me to believe that anything I fix will just get mindlessly changed back. But this article is insulting to practitioners of BDSM and just plain misleading. The article repeatedly equates being a sexual submissive with being an oppressed woman in a patriarchal society whose needs, interests, or perspectives are disregarded, both by herself and by others. But those aren't the same at all. The use of Frankenstein as an example is particularly ludicrous; the women in Frankenstein are women in a sexist patriarchal society, and it seems plausible to describe them as being objectified, and treated as though their perspectives are irrelevant, both by the characters and (peculiarly) by the author, but there's absolutely nothing in the book to suggest that they are sexual submissives or have ever acted as sexual submissives.

Frankly, this article probably shouldn't exist at all. Sexual submission is sexual submission; there's no intrinsic difference between female submission and male submission. So all you need is an article on sexual submission, and that already exists. If what you want to do is to talk about the fact that far more women identify as submissive, and far more men as dominant, and that this probably has something to do with screwed-up patriarchal gender norms, then make an article about the relationship between BDSM and patriarchy. That is a worthwhile topic and probably deserves an article. But currently this article is currently trying to slip a one-sided stance on the relationship between BDSM and patriarchy into something masquerading as an objective article about submission, and that's incredibly misleading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:37DA:6690:3DE7:DDC:6484:D993 (talk) 21:27, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Some of your comments may be correct, but your assertion that "there's no intrinsic difference between female [sexual] submission and male [sexual] submission" is unfortunately quite wrong from most points of view... AnonMoos (talk) 10:30, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

This is something I'd like to touch on again. While I think there are differences, not just physically but also psychologically, I don't think the article adequately explains this. Particularly the points on why females are submissive and views on why they should be submissive and dominated. I'd add it but I'm afraid without adequate sources it will just get reverted as not fitting in with new generation SJW equality views. Biofase ^flame| stalk  05:07, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

I think you're right, but the discussion you have is an active area of debate revolving around the larger topic of nature vs nurture. As such, sources could be found there. With that said, this page is highly political, and a few groups will see any intention to define female submission as a natural occurrences, despite the very nature of sex itself, as incorrect with efforts to revert it. This leads to the mess of an article this is. ~2025-41720-62 (talk) 14:53, 3 January 2026 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Human footstool.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. Community Tech bot (talk) 21:51, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Pet girl nude.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 00:52, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

Tone down the hardcore images?

The images in the article are arguably hardcore pornography, and WP:HARDCORE says, among other things,

• It is not a good thing for young people to be viewing these images.
• Many of these images are misogynistic and degrading to women.

What do y'all think about toning it down? 2601:281:CC80:5AE0:E82B:3F7C:4AC2:B3A7 (talk) 20:32, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

As I understand it, hardcore pornography depicts actual sex acts, or possibly close-ups of genitals in a state of arousal, and I don't think any of the images currently on the article qualifies. And the images appropriate to an article entitled "female submission" will necessarily include at least symbolic humiliation/degradation of a woman.

Nevertheless, the focus of the current images on the article on bondage/BDSM practices which leave marks on the skin is rather narrow and limiting (expressing only one small facet of female submission), so I'll reshuffle the images to restore File:Le Rêve d'un flagellant by George Topfer.jpg to lead position (which it held for years). AnonMoos (talk) 13:59, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

• They are not pornography, pornography must show sex (or intercourse) and must serve no informational purposes.
• Submission is not misogynistic. Misogyny is the hatred of women.
• Submission is not inherently degrading to women.
• When submission is degrading to women, it is still a valuable part of the topic, and can be used to explain and teach.
• Images and information doesn't corrupt, but prevent corruption.
• Censorship doesn't help women, it hurts them.
• The original person stating this was almost certainly expressing their ideological opinion on the topic of Female Submission. They were not talking from an academic perspective. And for a Wikipedia topic, that is an important distinction. We are here to teach, not entertain or arouse. The images are threatening to them, because they want to control the narrative (that Female Submission is wrong, or most likely that pictures of sex are "Sinful")

~2025-41720-62 (talk) 16:10, 3 January 2026 (UTC)

Assumptions

The introductory sentence "Female submission or femsub is an activity or relationship in which a woman consents to submit to the direction of a sexual partner or allows her body to be used sexually by or for the sexual pleasure of her partner" assumes that submission is always voluntary on the part of the woman and that all activities are agreed to. There are cases like non-consensual blackmail where the woman isn't given the choice to consent freely. Most of the other articles don't mention consent in the introduction instead dealing with it elsewhere and the article on male submission doesn't even mention it at all. Further consent is already mentioned in "The expression is often associated with BDSM, when the woman voluntarily and consensually submits to such activity" making it redundant in any case.

There is also the assumption that all activities are sexual and that her body is always used for activities that are for sexual pleasure. If there are no objections I'll change or rearrange these statements.

The image of the woman assumes that she is in a stripping activity but from her shoes in the 3 poses and some other signs this is actually 3 images of her in different outfits. This might be because no suitable image exists so in that case I'll leave it till a suitable one can be found. Biofase ^flame| stalk  14:33, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

"Some sex acts require a woman to be passive while an active sex partner performs sex acts on her, and this may be seen as a form of submission."

Holy redundancy, Batman! ~2025-41720-62 (talk) 20:56, 18 December 2025 (UTC)

"A 1985 study suggested that about 30% of participants in BDSM activities were females.[1][2] "

Out of date, and inaccurate. BDSM was a term coined in the late 1990's. And the recent data from 2024–2025 shows a distribution of 43% cisgender men, 43% cisgender women, and 9% non-binary individuals. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00224499.2021.2015745#d1e702 ~2025-41720-62 (talk) 15:01, 3 January 2026 (UTC)

The studies referred to above, specifically speak of vary narrow topics, when BDSM is a catch all term. The specific language in the references is "sadomasochistic communities"

I will make the change.

Separate the article into better sections, or separate entire pages

The best option is probably to make this topic into a navigation page to various forms of female submission, as this is a huge topic, and this "Female Submission" page is stuck in an identity crisis, where as the people here do not know which type of female submission is being discussed.

• Consensual Female Submission found in BDSM.
  • Types of Consensual Female Submission
    • Sexual Submission
    • Non-Sexual Submission
  • History of Consensual Female Submission
• "Non-Consensual Female Submission" found outside of BDSM.
  • Types of Non-Consensual Female Submission
    • Sexual Submission
    • Non-Sexual Submission
  • History of Non-Consensual Female Submission.
  • Legal Requirements for Submission, that don't require consent: Like following the law, prisons.
• Feminism and Female Submission
  • History of Feminism and Female Submission
  • Conflicting opinions about female submission in feminist communities.
• "Traditional view points of female submission"
  • Islam
  • Christianity
  • etc.

"Nature vs Nurture"

Etc. ~2025-41720-62 (talk) 15:38, 3 January 2026 (UTC)

Spam of Erotica found in the External Links

People added links to erotica in the external links. They have been removed. ~2025-41720-62 (talk) 15:45, 3 January 2026 (UTC)

Article is written about the wrong topic.

The article is about Female Sexual Submission. In most cases, it is about "Consensual Female Sexual Submission." Female submission is a MUCH larger topic then sexual, or consensual. ~2025-41720-62 (talk) 15:49, 3 January 2026 (UTC)