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Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
I have removed some nonsense (Constantinian church consisting of two courtyards [!!!] and a rotunda), updated the reconstruction (enclosed broken pentagonal apse, no quasi-freestanding octagonal tower-like rotunda). Previous quotations were given w/o URL; if (!) still valid, the measures can be reintroduced by whoever has access. Thanks, Arminden (talk) 11:07, 8 April 2018 (UTC)Reply
In a single sentence the paragraph credits the 2nd church to Justinian without giving any quotes or other forms of proof. While it's correct that the 2nd church was for a long time credited to him by historians, the theory is not undisputed anymore. Several articles mention, that the church may be built by him or may be build even earlier. As far as I know, there is actually no historical source crediting the church to Justinian. --131.220.244.26 (talk) 14:17, 10 June 2019 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
The holy site known as the Nativity Grotto is thought to be the cave in which Jesus was born. In 135, Emperor Hadrian had the site above the grotto converted into a worship place for Adonis, the mortal lover of Aphrodite, the Greek goddess of beauty and desire. Jerome claimed in 420 that the grotto had been consecrated to the worship of Adonis, and that a sacred grove was planted there in order to completely wipe out the memory of Jesus from the world.
This is the current, dominant narrative. But the cult of Tammuz had been in the region for at least seven centuries, and sacred caves have had a very long relationship with paganism, with caves long being associated with the birth canal of the Earth Mother. This notion that the grotto was converted to pagan worship after the birth of Jesus is highly suspect. Viriditas (talk) 09:36, 1 June 2023 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
The Bethlehem article states that "The Church of the Nativity was built at her initiative." . In this article it's her who identifies the place.
I know people love their female deities and saints, but this seems highly dubious. This was an imperial project, Constantine had embarked on a state-(re)building initiative, with Christianity as the new state religion, and therefore needed to raise the new holy sites to the rank and fame held until then by temples like those in Rome, Athens, Delos, Ephesus etc. After Jerusalem, Bethlehem, already adopted into Christian "holy geography" since at least the 2nd c., was an obvious candidate for an imperial church. The theological argument (pophecy of the Messiah coming from the "house of David") had its own weight. Bishop Makarios knew for sure about the site and was corresponding with the emperor.
How plausible is Helena's role, beyond the pious legend? Which are the ancient sources, and how are they regarded by modern scholars?
N.b.: clerics, even if widely recognised as scholars, such as R. Brownrigg and J. Murphy-O'Connor, are unlikely to go against fundamental narratives of the Church. Secular scholars seem to me more credible in such contexts. Arminden (talk) 23:20, 14 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
