Talk:Chess scoring
Add topicLatest comment: 4 months ago by Yodin in topic Article explanation of A–B scores
 | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
| |||||||||||
A−B: dash or minus?
[edit]Should the line between A and B in A−B style scores be an en dash (–) or a minus sign (−)? Are there any reliable sources or style guides that cover this? --YodinT 14:20, 13 March 2026 (UTC)
- On Wikipedia, the chess project has WP:CHESS#Conventions. Outside WP I am not aware of any style guides for chess writing. For A–B match scores the dash is appropriate. ("The score of the 1972 Fischer–Spassky match was 12½–8½" uses dashes between Fischer and Spassky and 12½ and 8½.) For +W−L=D single-player scores, minus is correct. Quale (talk) 05:18, 16 March 2026 (UTC)
- It's possible that A–B should mirror the MOS:ENBETWEEN dash in the match name, but it might instead be supposed to mean "points for minus points against" (A−B). I wrote the relevant part of WP:CHESS#Scores and half points after fixing up this page, which had been using en dashes for the +W −L =D and +A or −A formats, but am still not convinced which one is right for A−B. We should be following what reliable sources do, but it might be difficult to use printed sources for this, as the minus sign and en dash look so similar in most fonts. I also wonder how meticulous even most reliable publishers would be to use one form rather than another, which is why any kind of chess style guide would have been invaluable. It is possible that the origins of this score format might shed some light on which of the two formats was originally meant, but it would probably be difficult to trace back to the earliest uses. --YodinT 22:24, 16 March 2026 (UTC)
- I think it's most reasonable to consider A–B to mean "points for player A–points for player B", but even if it was "points for player A–points not for player A" it would use a dash. Minus doesn't make sense in this context. You don't get minus one points for losing a game or minus ½ points for a draw. The +W−L=D notation is different as + and − are symmetrical. (I think this might sometimes be written as +W=D−L but I don't think that's common.) Quale (talk) 02:14, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
- "Number of wins minus number of losses" is used to calculate the +A or −A score format, so it does make sense in that respect. That said, if you are convinced that it's using a dash, we can change this article and WP:CHESS#Scores and half points, at least until we can find any reliable sources that can settle this one way or the other. --YodinT 17:26, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
- Where did discussion of +A or −A come from? That wasn't part of the question. Obviously if you're talking about scoring plus two or minus two you use plus (+) or minus (−). You could write that down, but if there is anything in the world that is too obvious to have to state explicitly, this would be it. Quale (talk) 22:00, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
- You said
Minus doesn't make sense in this context. You don't get minus one points for losing a game
so I gave an example of why A−B could mean "A minus B", where the opponent's points are deducted from the player's points. --YodinT 11:20, 18 March 2026 (UTC)- No, it can't. That doesn't make any sense. Why are we deducting opponent's points from our points? We're just comparing our points to theirs, and you separate the two with a dash. Fischer–Spassky doesn't mean Fischer minus Spassky, and 12½–8½ doesn't mean 12½ minus 8½. Reading "the score of Fischer–Spassky was 12½–8½" as "the score of Fischer vs Spassky was 12½ minus 8½" would be demented. (The appropriate reading is "12½ to 8½". "To" is a dash.) Quale (talk) 00:31, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
- You said
- Where did discussion of +A or −A come from? That wasn't part of the question. Obviously if you're talking about scoring plus two or minus two you use plus (+) or minus (−). You could write that down, but if there is anything in the world that is too obvious to have to state explicitly, this would be it. Quale (talk) 22:00, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
- "Number of wins minus number of losses" is used to calculate the +A or −A score format, so it does make sense in that respect. That said, if you are convinced that it's using a dash, we can change this article and WP:CHESS#Scores and half points, at least until we can find any reliable sources that can settle this one way or the other. --YodinT 17:26, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
- I think it's most reasonable to consider A–B to mean "points for player A–points for player B", but even if it was "points for player A–points not for player A" it would use a dash. Minus doesn't make sense in this context. You don't get minus one points for losing a game or minus ½ points for a draw. The +W−L=D notation is different as + and − are symmetrical. (I think this might sometimes be written as +W=D−L but I don't think that's common.) Quale (talk) 02:14, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
- It's possible that A–B should mirror the MOS:ENBETWEEN dash in the match name, but it might instead be supposed to mean "points for minus points against" (A−B). I wrote the relevant part of WP:CHESS#Scores and half points after fixing up this page, which had been using en dashes for the +W −L =D and +A or −A formats, but am still not convinced which one is right for A−B. We should be following what reliable sources do, but it might be difficult to use printed sources for this, as the minus sign and en dash look so similar in most fonts. I also wonder how meticulous even most reliable publishers would be to use one form rather than another, which is why any kind of chess style guide would have been invaluable. It is possible that the origins of this score format might shed some light on which of the two formats was originally meant, but it would probably be difficult to trace back to the earliest uses. --YodinT 22:24, 16 March 2026 (UTC)
Article explanation of A–B scores
[edit]I apologize, I didn't really pay close enough attention to what the article says.
| A−B | Points for (A) − points against (B) | "Fischer won the tournament... with a score of 18½−4½". The games played is the sum of the "for" and "against" scores, so in this case, Fischer scored 18½ points from 23 games played. |
This explanation seems slightly unusual to me. It isn't wrong, but I thought A–B was/is used more often for match scores than tournament scores. If that's the case then the explanation should use a match rather than a tournament as an example. For tournament scores I expect A/B usage to be more common. That said, A–B can definitely be used for tournaments as well. Quale (talk) 01:14, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
- That's alright, the discussion was getting a bit heated! You make a strong case for it being an en dash, so I'll update the article and WP:CHESS#Scores and half points to use dashes for this format, unless some source appears that refutes this. And I wouldn't be opposed to updating the A–B explanation. --YodinT 19:34, 19 March 2026 (UTC)