Talk:Bohemian Revolt

Naming of victory

Maybe the name of the victory should be switched to Hasburg instead of Imperialm, to make it more obvious for the viewer? FrogOnGrog (talk) 11:05, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 14 June 2025

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 09:01, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

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Bohemian Revolt → Bohemian revoltBohemian revolt – Not consistently capped in sources per WP:NCCAPS and MOS:CAPS. See ngram search which is reasonably consistent with this search of google scholar. Cinderella157 (talk) 07:47, 14 June 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. Alpha3031 (t • c) 11:30, 30 June 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. TarnishedPath^talk 09:35, 11 July 2025 (UTC)

Support. A widely-cited history book by a respected historian writes it as "Bohemian revolt". Others seem to follow his lead. TurboSuperA+_(connect) 08:10, 14 June 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose. I think Bohemian Revolt is a proper name as it is a specific historical event. Fade258 (talk) 14:36, 14 June 2025 (UTC)

  Did you look at the presented evidence? Is your thinking not influenced by how books use lowercase so often over many years? Dicklyon (talk) 23:50, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

  Hi @Dicklyon, Apologies for late reply as I am busy in preparation of my examination and Thank you for the question. Yes, I have looked at the presented evidence carefully and recognized that books and other publications often use lowercase. My judgement about it is primarily based on Wikipedia's policies and guidelines specially manual of style as it has its own style conventions. I think that long term trends in publishing may be informative but I follow Wikipedia's relevant policies in determining capitalization. Fade258 (talk) 04:04, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

  I'm puzzled. MOS:CAPS says only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Wikipedia. And WP:NCCAPS says, leave the second and subsequent words in lowercase unless the title phrase is a proper name that would always occur capitalized, even mid-sentence. What are you finding that suggests capitalizing "Revolt" here? There's nothing in P&G about capping "a specific historical event". Dicklyon (talk) 04:45, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

  Thanks for bringing it here. I give my opinion regarding it as I found most of the references used it as capital letter and I also noticed that similar amount of references also used small letter with this findings I assume that there is an inconsistent use of small or capital letter. Yes, you're absolutely right on that as there is no any provision for it in Wikipedia's policies of manual of style guides that says terms like Revolt should be capitalized simply because they refer to a historical event. I refer it as a specific historical event based on my assumptions compairing to other events such as World War, French Revolution etc. Fade258 (talk) 13:43, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

  Per your observation that capitalization is mixed in sources, we should follow MOS:CAPS and use lowercase. The MOS does not say Revolt should be capitalized just because it refers to a historical event. Dicklyon (talk) 16:11, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

  Yes, exactly you're right to hear about that. I agree with you and willing to follow MOS:CAPS as it clearly says that, Wikipedia relies on sources to determine what is conventionally capitalized; only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Wikipedia. Yes, manual of style does not say that Revolt should be capitalized only for a historical event but I think Bohemian Revolt both should be capitalized because of proper noun as it is a historical event of a particular incident or series of incidents that occurred at a specific time and place and also having a significant impact on a particular group or in the course of history and I honestly appreciate your observation but on my own findings, I am not fairly confident to change the title to small letter. Fade258 (talk) 04:26, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

  While WP capitalises proper names, what WP considers a proper name is determined by whether a term is consistently capitalised in sources (per MOS:CAPS). The evidence of usage in sources indicates sources cap it about 50% of the time or less. If proper names are always capped (no one disagrees with this), if it is far from always bring capped in sources (about 50% or less) it would be difficult to make a convincing argument that this should be capped. Cinderella157 (talk) 04:53, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

• Support per nom and evidence of usage. Dicklyon (talk) 23:50, 16 June 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose. Simple google search does not support this proposal. Encyclopedias like Britannica, World History Encyclopedia use Revolt. Obviously, both variants are commonly used, as Ngram and google scholar shows, but for "Bohemian revolt" Ngram also includes results that are not related to 1618 Bohemian Revolt (e.g. 1, 2, 3), and it's hard to say to what extent this is distorted. Obviously, both variants are commonly used, but I don't see the potential move as a benefit for users. FromCzech (talk) 11:13, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

  "simple Google search" tends to just mirror whatever Wikipedia has currently (or recently). Dicklyon (talk) 17:40, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

  It's a good point that there may be other meanings of "Bohemian revolt" (but I'm having trouble viewing what you found). One thing that can help is to add another term that's likely to appear on the same page as this topic, e.g. as in this search, which suggests that lowercase is most common. Certain there's no way to claim that it's "consistently capitalized" as MOS:CAPS suggests. Dicklyon (talk) 17:48, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

  For example this search suggests that Revolt is most common, so it probably can't be determined like that. I don't know why you can't see what I found (it works for me on another PC too), but the point is that Bohemian revolt can also be associated with Bohemianism, not just with Bohemia. Therefore, the capital letter ensures that the page title is in accordance with WP:CRITERIA. FromCzech (talk) 18:08, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

  I can see your books now (on a different network, different computer). And yes I agree some of those are about a several centuries later phenom. If you look at the older uses, they're mostly all lowercase, as many still are, so I still can't see how you could claim it's consistently capped. And in your latest "this search" link, the only bolded bit of a snippet that I see has lowercase. Where are you seeing more capitalization? Dicklyon (talk) 22:57, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

  We are likely to see different search results if they adapt to the location from which the query is made. Nothing changes my opinion that Bohemian Revolt is a clear name, while Bohemian revolt has two meanings, so the clear name should be preferred and potential violation of MOS:CAPS is not important. FromCzech (talk) 06:20, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

  My ngram search is supported by a google scholar search, which shows similar results. While there may be results therein that refer to another context my perusal indicated that most of the lowercase results were referring to the context of this article. For confirmation, I just did this search of google scholar to exclude the other contexts. It would also confirm that Bohemian revolt is not consistently capped in sources. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:48, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

• Comment: MOS:CAPS here does not give a standard of "consistently capitalized in [a substantial majority of independent, reliable] sources" contra nom. That is the general rule subject to "exceptions for specific cases discussed below". One such listed exception is that "Accepted names of wars, battles, revolts, revolutions, rebellions, mutinies, skirmishes, fronts, raids, actions, operations, and so forth are capitalized if they are usually capitalized in sources".
  Likewise, WP:NCCAPS incorporates MOS:CAPS, saying "For details on when to capitalize on Wikipedia, see the Wikipedia Manual of Style sections on capital letters and, when relevant, on trademarks." ~ Jenson (SilverLocust 💬) 13:57, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

  No matter how you interpret "usually", this one does not satisfy the test "if they are usually capitalized in sources". Dicklyon (talk) 15:11, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

  And how does one determine what is an accepted name? This comment at WT:MOSCAPS#RfC on the meaning of "usually" as used in MOS:MILTERMS would observe that an accepted name = proper name, and on WP, proper names are ones which are consistently capped in sources. On the other hand, the circularity of the guidance would make it totally useless to determining the question. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:07, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Military history has been notified of this discussion. Alpha3031 (t • c) 12:13, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Austria, WikiProject Germany, WikiProject Military history, WikiProject Former countries, WikiProject Czech Republic, WikiProject European history, and WikiProject Former countries/Holy Roman Empire task force have been notified of this discussion. TarnishedPath^talk 09:35, 11 July 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose per FromCzech. Though it was previously much more mixed, especially in books, in the past ten or fifteen years usage seems to have decisively swung in favor of uppercase to the point where I think we can say it's consistently capitalized in sources. On a different note, Cinderella157's 23 June argument in which they cited a comment I made is not entirely correct, in my view. On WP, proper names are ones which are consistently capped in sources is not the definition of a proper name. A proper name is a unique noun unit that refers to one thing. Prior to Dicklyon's 2019 edit, the MILTERMS guideline stated that accepted names for a few specific types of military terms were capitalized. A wise guidance that's there specifically to avoid Arab Revolt and Bohemian revolt; Second Battle of the Marne but Second battle of Tembien; Iranian Revolution existing alongside Syrian revolution. Across all these military terms, a trend toward uppercasing can be observed over time; while other events, such as campaigns and offensives, remain decisively lowercase. MILTERMS recognizes this trend and recommends we look to see the trends over time. For there is a difference between a proper name that is consistently capitalized in sources and a proper name. This is how MILTERMS was intented, this is how it was meant to be wielded. Anything that is overwhelmingly lowercase can be considered an IAR exception to MILTERMS. 🐔 Chicdat  ^{Bawk to me!} 12:34, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.