Talk:Bni Chiker

Name in Tarifit

The article states that it would be Bni Cikaa in Tarifit. I am a Berber from there, and we Say At Chicha or Ayt Cisha. 46.114.105.107 (talk) 21:47, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

@Lankdadank I am sorry but I don’t really understand why you deleted the Riffian name? Bananakingler (talk) 22:07, 5 May 2026 (UTC)

You can include the Tarifit name in the infobox and/or in the note. The location where you added it to is only for English-language names. lankdadank (chat) 22:08, 5 May 2026 (UTC)

Alright. It would be nice if you would do that next time instead of deleting it. Thank you for the clarification. Bananakingler (talk) 22:15, 5 May 2026 (UTC)

Again please talk to me instead of deleting what I add. @Lankdadank Bananakingler (talk) 18:12, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

You should not add incorrect original research and expect me to fix it for you or talk to you before removing it. lankdadank (chat) 18:14, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

You did not delete it for OR but cause you believed it to be „100%“ wrong. If we don’t add names on government buildings that’s fine. I can stop doing that but only if you talk to me. Bananakingler (talk) 18:16, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

First, the Tifinagh reads "ayt cecar", but the transliteration you give is "Ayt Cicar". Second, I believe this is definitely incorrect because Tamazight does not allow a schwa in that position. The town hall sign is wrong. Unfortunately, incorrect Tifinagh is common in Morocco, there's even a Facebook group dedicated to sharing examples of it. lankdadank (chat) 18:18, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

Okay next time name the mistake in the edit summary so I can fix it if you don’t want to do it yourself.

About the Facebook group, while I get your point we have to use what the reliable sources provide for us. I would say that a government building is a good first step. When we find other official documents we can start using them. Bananakingler (talk) 18:26, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

Basing it on a photo you took is still WP:OR. You also missed my main point: the sign is linguistically incorrect because Tamazight does not allow schwa in open syllables. Are you willing to add incorrect information just to have a Tamazight name? lankdadank (chat) 18:30, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

We can talk about WP:OR aspect of it however I will not accept your claim that the addition is factual wrong. If the government uses it this, even if not following the standard way, just by being declared by the government, it becomes a valid way of writing it. Also the last sentence is an aspersion. You have to stop that and you have to focus on content. Bananakingler (talk) 18:34, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

If a government sign contained a spelling error in English, we would not add that error to the article. The same applies here. The sign is linguistically incorrect, and Wikipedia should not repeat errors just because they appear on a sign in Morocco. And again, you will find many incorrect Tifinagh signs in Morocco.

If you agree it is WP:OR, you should remove it. lankdadank (chat) 18:37, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

I don’t agree that it is WP:OR. You may prove it to me by being more precise. You may also prove to me that the spelling is wrong.

And this not just any sign but a sign for a name. If a government writes the name of a town a certain way, then that is the official way of writing it. Bananakingler (talk) 18:40, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

WP:OI and WP:Transcription seem to support my side btw. Bananakingler (talk) 18:41, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

I understand you are acting in good faith to add the Tifinagh name, but relying on a photo of a sign to establish a spelling is a textbook example of WP:OR.

First of all, you mentioned WP:Transcription, but that doesn't actually exist. Regarding WP:OI, the policy clearly states original images are fine so long as they do not "illustrate or introduce unpublished ideas." Using your personal photo as a citation to establish a disputed spelling does exactly that. It makes Wikipedia the primary source, which is a textbook violation of WP:OR.

Secondly, you argued that if a government writes a name a certain way, it becomes the "official" and "valid" way of writing it. Unfortunately, in the context of Moroccan Tifinagh signage, this is factually incorrect. Local government signs are notoriously error-prone, often created by contractors who do not actually know the script or language.

This phenomenon is well-documented by linguists. For example, Dr. Lameen Souag, a linguist specializing in North African languages, has documented exactly these types of "tokenistic Tifinagh" errors on official signage:

https://lughat.blogspot.com/2017/12/tokenistic-tifinagh-fail.html

https://lughat.blogspot.com/2018/01/tokenistic-tifinagh-fail-2.html?m=1

Because these government signs are known to be unreliable primary sources riddled with basic orthographic errors, we cannot use a photo of one to dictate Wikipedia's spelling. If this spelling is indeed standard, we should be able to find a reliable, published secondary source that uses it. Until we have that, the spelling should remain out. lankdadank (chat) 18:59, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

What? WP:TRANSCRIPTION does exist. Did you even read it? Bananakingler (talk) 19:03, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

Yeah in that case let’s delete all the tifinagh off all of Wikipedia cause one linguist says they might be wrong Bananakingler (talk) 19:05, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

A transcription of a text is not a „new idea“… this is getting ridiculous Bananakingler (talk) 19:07, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

Both links are regarding Algeria not Morocco. Bananakingler (talk) 19:09, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

I've requested a third opinion since we can't come to an agreement. I couldn't find WP:TRANSCRIPTION because you misspelled it. In any case, I will wait for the third opinion's input. lankdadank (chat) 19:14, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

It was right in under WP:OI. I am certain you could have found it. Bananakingler (talk) 19:17, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

I modified your request cause it took to much emphasis on linguistics. Unfortunately you using two Algerian Amazigh examples for linguistic wrong names do not work on Standard Moroccan Tamazight. Its two different governments and two different Languages. Bananakingler (talk) 19:23, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

If you are a party to a dispute and another party has requested an opinion it is improper for you to remove or modify the request, even if the request does not meet the requirements for a third opinion or because you do not want a Third Opinion.

And just to make it clear, you disagree with the notion that Tifinagh signage in Morocco is riddled with errors? lankdadank (chat) 19:26, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

I disagree that posting two sources about Algeria can be applied to Morocco and that linguistic correctness is more important of a criterium for deciding wether a name is official than the official spelling. Bananakingler (talk) 19:36, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

Thank you for admitting the name is linguistically incorrect.

To illustrate just how unreliable Tifinagh signage in Morocco can be, here are a few examples:

French written in Tifinagh.

A sign that literally says "Translation in Tamazight."

Arabic written in Tifinagh.

Again, French.

More French!

This is not rare. A single photo of a government sign is simply not a reliable source for a correct spelling. lankdadank (chat) 19:49, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

It’s kinda bad faith to say i „admitted“ something I didn’t. Bananakingler (talk) 20:01, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

It feels like you are arguing just for the sake of arguing. I am not against adding a Tamazight name to the article. If you had spent this time researching instead of defending a linguistically incorrect spelling, you would have found that sources actually use ⴰⵢⵜ ⵛⵉⵛⴰⵔ ("Ayt Cicar"). The spelling you added, ⴰⵢⵜ ⵛⴻⵛⴰⵔ ("Ayt Cecar"), has zero hits on Google outside of this article. lankdadank (chat) 19:34, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

If the government uses it that way it’s fine to use it as long as you don’t find a RS with another spelling. Bananakingler (talk) 19:37, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

For third opinion

1. does using a self taken picture of a government building and transcribing the name of it constitute WP:OR?
2. Have there been valid points brought forth to give reasonable doubt on the linguistic correctness of the Name?
3. Does a name on a government building constitute official use?
4. Is an official name, even if linguistically wrong acceptable for Wikipedia?

Bananakingler (talk) 20:21, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

The purpose of WP:3O is to get a neutral outside perspective. The questions you added, especially the last one, are leading and frame the dispute in your favor rather than neutrally summarizing it. I will let the 3O volunteer evaluate the framing when they arrive to review the thread. lankdadank (chat) 20:37, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

Please don't remove my comment . lankdadank (chat) 20:44, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

I self reverted cause I thought it was the edit where you hid mine Bananakingler (talk) 21:15, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

I am not hiding your comment. You simply formatted it incorrectly by creating a new section, so I merged them together. On PC, you can still see "For third opinion" as a subsection in the table of contents on the left. lankdadank (chat) 21:17, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

I will leave Wikipedia for atleast 1 year now. I did my best but it’s seems like the work I do is not getting appreciated. This is to much and I will use that time and energy for myself and family. I tried my best but apparently I am either to stupid or stubborn for this place.

Feel free to remove the tifinagh name of Beni chiker or any of my other edits. Azul fellawen Bananakingler (talk) 21:23, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

Hey, I'm genuinely sorry it got to this point. I could have probably de-escalated the situation more. I definitely don't want to be the reason you leave the project. If you need a break, I totally get it, but I hope you reconsider leaving for a year. lankdadank (chat) 21:28, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

I've also gone ahead and removed the Third Opinion request to take the heat off for a bit. lankdadank (chat) 21:32, 7 June 2026 (UTC)