Talk:Battle of Benevento

The German mercenaries and their coats of plates

I had previously read the same description of Manfred's German mercenaries wearing coats of plates (although described more in terms of solid plate, which is surely inaccurate) in "Warfare in the Roman Empire and the Middle Ages" by Hoffman Nickerson, who in turns quotes as a source "Delpech, vol 2,99-106". What always confounded me about this passage is that I would have expected the coats of plates to be worn OVER a maille hauberk and gambeson, so the armpits of the Germans should not have been any more vulnerable than those of the French themselves. I'd like to know the original source of this account of how the Germans were overcome. "Delpech" refers to Henri Delpech, La Tactique Au XIIIme Siècle (1886) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.188.208.236 (talk) 05:30, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

This anecdote has always wrankled myself as jumping to the conclusion of it being a coat of plates I would consider unfounded, as potential of there being something more solid is entirely possible, and experimental armor has horrid archaeological preservation from this era (sugar loaf great helms for one good example, are known almost solely from artwork and I think there is but one partial surviving piece of a helm's crown). Period sources also speak of iron plates being worn underneath hauberks all over western Europe, in a fashion distinct from what we know as coats of plate from effigies and later finds. Nothing conclusive can be made, but I would express doubts that it was conventional equipment given its noted vulnerability and specific remark by the French on the field.

Endless hypotheticals can also be raised as to why the armpit was vulnerable too which all have good answers. Perhaps they had early limb defenses and their hauberks had unusually short sleeves? Perhaps they had an awkward, sub-maille iron vestment which infringed their movement and made them vulnerable to a coup de grace similar to couched thrusts with a sword into maille voiders in the late period when plate armor became common. Or of course the anecdote could itself be full of it. ~2026-30415-11 (talk) 05:46, 21 May 2026 (UTC)

Sources and References

The article includes sources, but lacked in-line citations. I had a resource, so I put in the Osprey data and took out the warning tag that there were no sources, but it could use more. LTC (Ret.) David J. Cormier (talk) 22:15, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Bias

I'm no expert on 13th-century warfare, but I'm pretty sure that this article is affected by the classical anti-Italian and pro-German bias common to much British military historiography. You know, Italians are cowards who flee as soon as possible, Germans are Übermenschen who who are defeated only if overwelmed and fight to the last man and so on. I'm sick and tired of this kind of propaganda. Merdeumane (talk) 17:26, 11 February 2026 (UTC)