Talk:Aontú

References are not sufficient

the references for claims of right wing and populist are pretty minor and/or obscure publications. Anyone can call anyone else names but is that sufficient to show it is true? As for the claim of of populist - that is false on the face of it - to oppose abortion in modern Ireland is against popular opinion. The 'repeal the eight' campaign was and is widely populist to the extent that the street parties and celebration parades have only just ended. Perhaps the term populist itself is questionable... A bit of a weasel word? 86.40.209.175 (talk) 10:25, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Re. "populist" that's a fair point as it's one relatively minor source so have removed from lead. Though I think the sources calling it right wing, especially Politico, support that enough. JSwift49 22:22, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I re-added that some observers consider it populist, as now three separate articles have called Aontu this. JSwift49 14:34, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Glad I could help, and thank you for pointing out the thing with ESS source - I had no idea how the Wikipedia article of the party looked like in the past. Brat Forelli🦊 17:18, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Left-Right isn't about the size of government

The left-right political spectrum isn't based upon small or large government, but a defence of hierarchy and inequality in society. I think it is uncontroversial to describe Aontú as a right-wing to far-right populist party with a dominant tendency of social conservatism. France's National Rally and True Finns being examples. Jollyrime (talk) 19:59, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for opening the discussion. The thing is, we go based off what reliable sources say. You can argue it's right-wing to far-right, but unless you have reliable sources backing your claims up, it shouldn't be added. The source you added only says that it is "accused of being" (not that it is) on the far-right; the sources in the "Ideology and positions" section indicate a dissensus among these reliable sources on what position on the political spectrum it holds, but none claim far-right; at best you get "on the right" socially and on the left economically. Any of our own analyses fall under WP:SYNTH. Best, ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 20:02, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

France's National Rally and Finns Party do not have their economics and social policies artificially separated like this, despite being described nearly identifically in economic and social matters. Saying "right-wing or far-right" is exactly what the best sources about the party state. It would be a mistake of modern American politics to suggest that the size of the state is analogous to what a party's political position is. Jollyrime (talk) 20:07, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

what the best sources about the party state - but you haven't provided any of these sources at all, barring the one I mention above. Could you please present these sources here on the talk page? As it stands, as above, the reliable sources (both news outlets of record and academic sources) describe Aontú as differentiated this way; there's nothing about American politics mentioned in them. RN and PS's pages are presumably matters of local consensus and don't tie us to anything. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 20:12, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

Replied below. Jollyrime (talk) 20:30, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

Hello Jollyrime, do you have sources that actually describe the party as far-right? You only posted a single source, which says: While it would be hard to identify these parties on a left–right spectrum, another populist party that emerged and was sometimes accused of being 'far right' is more clearly on the left economically. This source does not classify it as far-right ("sometimes accused"), but does describe it as economically on the left, consistent with status quo.

What you need to keep in mind is WP:OR - no original research. We cannot do our own analyses or rely on personal interpretation of sources. For a great example, there is the American Communist Party, and a user started a discussion to classify it as "syncretic", providing sources that according to the user, showed some kind of political syncretism. This proposal was shot down by our experienced user Czello with a single sentence: Okay, but none of these sources use that word, however.

And here the same thing applies - if the party is "right-wing to far-right", you would need plenty of sources that explicitly argue so, atop making a point why these should trump sources that classify the party as economically left-wing and socially right-wing.

You also wrote: France's National Rally and Finns Party do not have their economics and social policies artificially separated like this, despite being described nearly identifically in economic and social matters. We actually have a policy that addresses this: WP:OTHERCONTENT.

Lastly, I strongly disagree that it is uncontroversial to describe Aontú as a right-wing to far-right populist party. Brat Forelli🦊 20:23, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

Hi Jollyrime. As noted by @Ser!, it is great to see this thread opened. On the points raised:

• "it is uncontroversial to describe Aontú as a right-wing to far-right populist party". Don't agree. Nor do the sources. Which describe it (variously) as "conservative" (per Irish Times, The Guardian, Irish Central, Independent News & Media, etc) or "right wing" or "populist" (per the Connaught Telegraph, European Center for Populism Studies and other existing sources in the lead). Ignoring all these sources, and focusing on one which scarcely uses the term "far right", is a significant over-simplification. And not a reflection of the sources. And certainly not "uncontroversial".
• "Left-Right isn't about the size of government" / "It would be a mistake of modern American politics to suggest that the size of the state is analogous to what a party's political position is". Everything in this (including the Talk section heading) is a form of OR. Referring to "modern American politics" here, in any capacity, is (at best) interpretation. And, at worst, original research. When proposing a change, it is best to refer to what the references can support. Rather than your own interpretation of (from what I can tell) unrelated topics and subjects.

Thanks. Guliolopez (talk) 20:22, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

I don't think there's any controversy that the party is on the right side of the Irish political spectrum and has been frequently labeled far-right. For instance, How Ireland Voted 2024: The New Normal? on Page 255 wtites that "On all dimensions, right- wing parties (Aontú and 'other right'), the centrists (Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael), and then the range of left-wing parties are clearly visible." and on Page 116 identified Aontú as "occupying the most rightwards space with almost identical positions in the two elections it has contested".

A party's adoption of welfare chauvinism does not make them left-wing, unless we similarly describe Poland's Law and Justice, France's National Rally, and True Finns as being both left and right. It is not uncommon for right-wing populist parties to adopt certain aspects of left-wing economic policy, which is not uncommon throughout Europe.

Political scientists identify the party as right-wing or far-right. It is clearly among the most right-leaning parties in Ireland, whether on immigration, abortion, feminism, LGBT rights, or its particular conception of nationalism. Jollyrime (talk) 20:30, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

Hi. RE:

• "the party is on the right side of the Irish political spectrum". Indeed. But the article (including the lead and infobox) already states as much. And is not the issue at question here. The main issue/change in question is your change to remove all mention of other right-leaning positions (including conservativism) and replace with an oversimplified "right wing to far right" label. When few to none of the sources use the term "far right" (and yet you've made it the 6th word in the article).
• On all dimensions, right- wing parties (Aontú and 'other right'). Where is "far right" mentioned here? And, if not mentioned here, where is it mentioned?
• Political scientists identify the party as right-wing or far-right. Which political scientists, quoted in which sources, use the term "far-right"?

Put simply: What change are you actually proposing? And what sources are you relying upon to support that change? (As the change you made before, to remove other terms and replace with "far right", doesn't appear to be supported by the sources.) Thanks. Guliolopez (talk) 20:39, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

To have the party be listed as "right-wing" or "right-wing or far-right" (clear significant minority at the least) in the infobox. It would contain a note that would state: "Like other European right-wing nationalist and populist parties, the party has been described as favouring welfare chauvinism and substantial market intervention, which is sometimes described as a form of left-wing economic policy." Jollyrime (talk) 20:42, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

has been frequently labeled far-right.

Can you present sources that describe the party as such then? "Occupying the most rightwards space" does not cut it per WP:OR.

A party's adoption of welfare chauvinism does not make them left-wing

Agreed. Welfare chauvinism does not make it economically left-wing - but sources that describe the party as economically left-wing do make it so.

unless we similarly describe Poland's Law and Justice

Their article clearly notes that the party is frequently described as economically left-wing/left-leaning with several sources though, and even names a few instances of it being described as socialist. But again, WP:OTHERCONTENT is something we need you to keep in mind. Brat Forelli🦊 20:43, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

The difference between the left and right (both in political science and as explained on their respective articles) is a defence of inequality and hierarchy. Those sources are merely stating the party takes several aspects of its economic policy from the left. Policies of anti-legal abortion, anti-gay marriage, anti-immigration, and reenforcement of traditional institutions clearly place them on the most right-wing point of Irish politics.

Beyond this, right-wing populists adoption of left-wing policy is narrowed to government intervention that reenforces rather than liberates individuals from traditional institutions, such as encouraging religious power or certain institutions in society. There's a whole field of literature known as welfare chauvinism that addresses this.

Economic interventionism clearly make a party left-wing. My reference to the United States is due to the fact that this argument is almost always confined to that country.

Unambiguous that the party, overall, is at least located somewhere on the political party.

Far-right is a significant minority interpretation and should be listed under due weight. Jollyrime (talk) 20:39, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

Hi. Firstly, can you stop with the editorial essays on politics? (As if (a) other editors need to be educated or (b) that it has any relevance). Secondly, and for the umpteenth time, can you provide a reference which supports your assertion that "Far-right is a significant minority interpretation" for the subject? Guliolopez (talk) 20:42, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

O’Malley (p. 225; 2024). States that the party has been widely described by a substantial minority as far-right and that its supporters label themselves right. Jollyrime (talk) 20:55, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

Would you mind actually quoting your own references properly? What it actually says is While it would be hard to identify these parties on a left–right spectrum, another populist party that emerged and was sometimes accused of being ‘far right’ is more clearly on the left economically. Which is rather different to what you said. FDW777 (talk) 21:01, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

And I notice this same flaw in your argument has been repeatedly pointed out by other editors already above, so repeating your error isn't helpful. FDW777 (talk) 21:04, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

The full paragraph states:

While it would be hard to identify these parties on a left-right spectrum, another populist party that emerged and was sometimes accused of being 'far right' is more clearly on the left economically. Aontú emerged as a splinter group from Sinn Féin over the party's stance on abortion. The leader of Aontú was a Sinn Féin TD who was disciplined for opposing the repeal of a provision in the Irish Constiution banning abortion. The party shares Sinn Féin's focus on a united Ireland and left-leaning economic policies, which it styles as 'economic justice'. However, its supporters clearly position themselves on the right of the political spectrum, possibly because of abortion.

I don't see this as being in contradiction with the party being described as right-wing overall. Jollyrime (talk) 21:15, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

The point it that it is in contradiciton with what *you* said, which was O’Malley (p. 225; 2024). States that the party has been widely described by a substantial minority as far-right and that its supporters label themselves right (my emphasis added). FDW777 (talk) 21:25, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

It notes that a significant minority describes the party as far right. "Clearly position themselves..." covers the rest of it.

I'd be alright with just "right-wing" (like Japan's LDP and the American Republican Party) being listed with that in the note. Jollyrime (talk) 21:32, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. It doesn't say whether it's one person accusing them, a dozen, a hundred, a thousand or a million. The "significant minority" is your own invention that several editors have objected to. FDW777 (talk) 21:41, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

This still fails to substantiate what you claim. The source does say: sometimes accused of being 'far right'. How is "sometimes accused" equal to "widely described by a substantial minority"? It clearly cannot be. You again need to consider WP:OR rule, which forbids any analysis or synthesis of published material that reaches or implies a conclusion not stated by the sources. If the source meant to say that a "substantial minority subcribes it as far-right", it would say so. But it does not. We want concrete analyses, and not "accusations", which only happen "sometimes" anyway.

You wrote a few editorial essays on this talk page that only show a personal understanding of politics - which is of no use. When pressed on the far-right claim, you give a source which says the party is "sometimes accused of being 'far-right'" (in apostrophes too!) and you try to claim that it actually says that it is "widely described by a substantial minority as far-right". You reach a conclusion that is not there.

What the source also says though is that the party is "more clearly on the left economically." And this is what the Wikipedia article reflects - that there are sources, a couple in fact, that describe the party as economically left-wing. Last but not least, the political position of the party's supporters is irrelevant because what we are discussing is the party's ideology and not the one of its supporters. Brat Forelli🦊 22:57, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

Political Position

Aontú, although having many right-wing policies, is definitely better described as "Syncretic" or "Big Tent" ~2026-22758-6 (talk) 22:25, 11 January 2026 (UTC)

Do we have sources that describe it as such? Brat Forelli🦊 22:53, 11 January 2026 (UTC)