Talk:2017 Sandy, Utah attack

Requested move 14 April 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. The consensus is against the move proposed. (closed by non-admin page mover) qedk (t 桜 c) 21:03, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

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Sandy, Utah attack → Sandy attackSandy attack – Without discussion, a user inserted an unnecessary disambiguator and a mismatched-comma error. Dicklyon (talk) 06:30, 14 April 2019 (UTC)--Relisting. -- Dane ^talk 19:53, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 13:17, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

• @Dicklyon and WWGB: I prefer that this is handled as a page move discussion.
• Oppose. First, as there is more than one "Sandy" in the US. Second, "Sandy attack" sounds like Sandy is an adjective, like gritty attack or earthy attack. Silly I know, but that's how it sounds. WWGB (talk) 07:02, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

  Just as there was no ambiguity in the Aurora shooting until one happened in another Aurora, and just as so many other articles with just city name, there's no actual ambiguity unless there an article on another notable attack in another Sandy. Anything would be better than leaving the mismatched comma grammatical error. Dicklyon (talk) 15:38, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

• Move to Sandy, Utah, attack or Attack in Sandy, Utah, per MOS:GEOCOMMA. —BarrelProof (talk) 13:27, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

  I'm OK with the two-comma version, but that style has been objected to by quite a few editors; the "Attack in Sandy, Utah" form has been found to be OK in some cases, so that's OK by me. Dicklyon (talk) 15:38, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

• Fix the mismatched comma somehow for sure. Sandy attack is too short. Attack in Sandy, Utah works. For these isolated single day events, I thing the year should be in the title. 2017 attack in Sandy, Utah. A bit of description would be good, enough to enable dropping the hatnote. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:06, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

Dislike Sandy, Utah, attack as excessive commas, but can’t quite bring myself to suggest anything I like. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:35, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose all alternatives - There is nothing grammatically wrong with the commas in the current name. This article has WP:TIES to the U.S. and this handling is acceptable, easily understandable, and often preferable in American English and should be retained per WP:ENGVAR. I am very open to a title that doesn't call this simply an "attack", and especially if that alternate title avoids the use of the city's name - but I can't read in the sources any particular WP:COMMONNAME for this event. Perhaps Rackley-Patterson murder-suicide? -- Netoholic @ 13:06, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Disagree with you about grammar. The title implies that Sandy is a type of Utah attack. Agree with everything else you say. Place (and time) uniquely define events, but they fail as relevant descriptions. It was an attack, but was much more, murder-suicide is right. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:35, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
  • I'd be interested in knowing if there's any support in sources (grammar or usage guides) for the idea that this mismatched comma is acceptable in American English. I think Netoholic just made that up. Dicklyon (talk) 03:53, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. Nothing wrong with the current title. As long as "City, State" is a commonly accepted form of place name, nobody would be confused by a title like this. feminist (talk) 19:25, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Please show any source that says such construction is commonly accepted. All the grammar and usages guides I've looked at say explicitly not. Dicklyon (talk) 03:53, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. Nothing wrong with the current title. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:55, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. It's a weak oppose because it's true that most guides do indeed call for the second comma, but still an oppose because the objections seem rooted in an overly zealous interpretation of the style guidelines (see below). If we believe our readers are the sort of people likely to misinterpret "Sandy, Utah attack" as "a type of Utah attack", then it's similarly reasonable to think they'd misinterpret "Sandy attack" as an attack that has the quality of sandiness. The current title, if not following the letter of the style-guide law, is at least clear.

  As for style guides, I think the problem is that what's necessary (or desirable) punctuation in American English varies based on context. The style guides I've checked discuss the use of enclosing commas around geographical identifiers in sentences: e.g., "Birmingham, Alabama, gets its name from Birmingham, England." However, a title does not follow the punctuation rules of a sentence; for instance, they don't end in terminal punctuation marks, which American English sentences must. Enclosing commas also don't follow the same termination rules as (say) parentheses; if they did, then the article on the city would have to be Sandy, Utah, (with a terminal comma), which of course is silly. ╠╣uw [talk] 18:11, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

  Well, yes, it would be silly to add that comma if the text doesn't continue. The guides are not silent or ambiguous on this. It's unclear to me why so many people here are asserting without evidence that it's "OK" to just do it wrong. Dicklyon (talk) 19:30, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

  My guess is that it's mostly due to context: something that's wrong in a sentence isn't necessarily wrong when you're dealing with three words by themselves in a title. Faithfully following the style guidelines gives us the technically correct form "Sandy, Utah, attack"... and while I'm not strongly opposed to that form, my guess is that most editors — even those like me who would be happy to use that construction in a sentence — recognize that separating every word in the title with commas looks a little fussy. (Based on what I see in forums like this, it could also just be a gradual shift in common usage.) ╠╣uw [talk] 09:26, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 30 August 2025

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Moved as an uncontested request with minimal participation. If there is any objection within a reasonable time frame, please ask me to reopen the discussion; if I am not available, please ask at the technical requests page. (closed by non-admin page mover) Tenshi! (Talk page) 23:28, 16 September 2025 (UTC)

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Sandy, Utah attack → 2017 Sandy, Utah attack – Adding the year to follow WP:NCWWW. ^Falling_Gravity 21:20, 30 August 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. Jeffrey34555 (talk) 07:42, 7 September 2025 (UTC)

• Comment: According to MOS:GEOCOMMA and WP:USPLACE, there should be a second comma: 2017 Sandy, Utah, attack (or Sandy, Utah, attack). Ham II (talk) 06:38, 31 August 2025 (UTC)

  The double comma looks weird here. Sandy, Utah, attack looks like Rock, paper, scissors. Besides, that change is not part of the original RM. WWGB (talk) 06:51, 31 August 2025 (UTC)

  Without the comma, the title looks like an attack on Utah named Sandy. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:23, 31 August 2025 (UTC)

  There was a very recent agreement to apply GEOCOMMA as prescribed for Talk:Danville, Kentucky, micropolitan area#Requested move 31 July 2025 (comma added 7 August 2025). —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:21, 31 August 2025 (UTC)

  From what I've seen GEOCOMMA isn't really applied to event titles. For example, 2016 St. Cloud, Minnesota knife attack and 2020 Springfield, Missouri shooting. May be best to stay consistent for now per WP:CRITERIA. ^Falling_Gravity 18:50, 31 August 2025 (UTC)

  Talk:2018 Crozet, Virginia, train crash § Requested move 15 January 2025 is an RM for thirteen events which resulted in the second commas being kept. There are several other RMs for events listed here which went the other way, so we haven't been systematic about this – but still, the guidelines MOS:GEOCOMMA and WP:USPLACE say what they say. Ham II (talk) 19:18, 31 August 2025 (UTC)

Again, this RM is about adding a year to the title, nothing else. WWGB (talk) 08:15, 7 September 2025 (UTC)

This RM is about whatever the people commenting want it to be about. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 19:59, 7 September 2025 (UTC)

• Support move to 2017 Sandy, Utah attack as proposed. I note five previous moves (I think) but this one makes sense to me and fits conventions as stated above, and extra commas are unnecessary IMO. Hopefully this RM will lead to stability. Andrewa (talk) 02:10, 15 September 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.