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Fails WP:V and WP:NPOV. The article relies on a YouTube video and local news portals for historical claims. This is page copied from the Albanian Wikipedia via an LLM-generated translation, and uses a promotional and highly biased tone that reads like a story, not an encyclopedic article. FranéRogoz (talk) 00:08, 31 July 2026 (UTC)reply
Keep Secondary sources currently cited in the article prove Zaskoci's notability under WP:GNG. His involvement in the region & Battle of Lume & League of Prizren among many others is cross verified by authoritative academic sources, like the Academy of Sciences Institute of History volume Konferenca kombëtare e studimeve për lidhjen shqiptare të prizrenit 1878–1881 (1979, pg 75, 78) and Me pushkë dhe penë për liri e pavarësi (1978, pg 283, 290). Also his long term revolutionary leadership & status are documented in Latifi, 2025, pg 232. As of WP:Deletion is not cleanup any bad layout doesnt mean we are supposed to delete it, personally, we should just refine it WP:PRESERVE. Magapetro (talk) 02:31, 31 July 2026 (UTC)reply
If you actually had these academic sources, why didn't you include them in the article in the first place? Instead, you simply copy-pasted the Albanian Wikipedia page, obviously using an LLM to translate it, while keeping completely unreliable, non-academic sources like a YouTube video and local web portals as the only references for this person. I nominated this article for deletion for very good reasons. Simply being mentioned in a few historical books or papers about regional battles does not automatically justify a standalone biographical article. Unless those academic sources provide significant, in-depth coverage of his actual biography rather than just passing mentions, this heavily promotional, non-neutral, AI generated text fails basic encyclopedia standards. FranéRogoz (talk) 03:00, 31 July 2026 (UTC)reply
I just took a look at the new sources you added to the article. None of these books or papers seem to be available anywhere online or in PDF format, so there is currently no way for anyone to actually verify what is written in them. Without being able to check the text, it is highly likely that this is the same situation as before, where the subject might only be mentioned in passing rather than having actual in-depth biographical coverage. I also notice that you have kept the old YouTube video and local media portals as the main sources for the vast majority of the article. Simply adding a few offline citations to isolated sentences doesn't fix the core issue here. The article still heavily relies on unacceptable sources and maintains that same non-neutral, LLM generated tone throughout the text. FranéRogoz (talk) 20:06, 31 July 2026 (UTC)reply
I'm not convinced that this is a real battle. I've done an analysis of the sources below, and none of them call this a "battle." There is agreement that Serbian forces entered the region and killed Albanians, but sources talk about it as part of the greater First Balkan War. When I mention pages in the analysis, those are the only times anything close to the battle is mentioned.
Source analysis
Banac, Ivo (1988) - Does not mention a "Battle of Lumë". On page 295, says "The indiscriminate slaughter in the Lume tribal area of northeastern Albania...".
Bjelajac, Mile (2012) - Does not mention a "Battle of Lumë". On page 146 mentions Serbian detachments for the purposes of "disarming [the] population," and resistance in Lume by the Albanians.
Csaplár-Degovics, Krisztián (2014-01-01) - Does not mention a "Battle of Lumë". On page 2, mentions a resistance by Albanian troops that eventually failed.
Durham, Edith (1914) - Does not mention a "Battle of Lumë". On pages 239 and 274, talks about killings in the Ljuma (Lumë) region. Primary, not suitable for notability.
Elliott, Justin Gregory Hamilton (2017) - Does not mention a "Battle of Lumë". On page 78, mentions "Muslims were offered the alternatives of conversion or death by the Serbs in Luma."
Elsie, Robert (2012) - Can't access. Amazon preview shows short biographies of individuals, unlikely to have coverage of a battle.
Freundlich, Leo (1913) - Does not mention a "Battle of Lumë". Primary source, not suitable for notability. Does talk about killings of Albanians in Lumë region in detail. See article Albania's Golgotha.
Hrabak, Bogumil (1969) - Can't access. Google suggests that the book focuses on 1918 and afterwards, 6 years after Battle took place.
International Commission to Inquire into the Causes and Conduct of the Balkan Wars (1914) - Does not mention a "Battle of Lumë".
Jagodić, Miloš (2013) - Does not mention a "Battle of Lumë". On page 18 mentions Albanian resistance and on page 258 mentions fighting against Serbians in the region.
Levene, Mark (2013) - Does not mention a "Battle of Lumë". On pages 105 to 108, mentions Serbian forces entering Lumë and Albanian resistance.
Qafleshi, Muharrem - Does not mention a "Battle of Lumë". Does have significant coverage of Albanian resistance against Serbian forces.
Ratković, Borislav (1997) - Can't access, not cited in article.
Rushiti, Liman (2003) - Does not mention a "Battle of Lumë". Mentions Serbian killings and Albanian resistance as part of a greater war.
Tucović, Dimitrije (1914) - Can't access. Primary source, not useful for notability.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Keep. Well it doesn't lack standalone academic coverage or notability because that claim is contradicted by the citation apparatus in mainstream Western scholarship, this specific November 1912 engagement is documented & evaluated by historians like Krisztian Csaplar-Degovics (2014, pg 2, Footnote 10), backed by contemporary Great Power military intelligence files from the Austrian State Archives Österreichisches Haus-, Hof- und Staatsarchiv, Politisches Archiv... Telegrams of Heimroth, Üsküb, 22.11.1912, Nr. 1632. Also, footnotes 5 & 9 verify the specific localized operations via the Imperial War Archives (Kriegsarchiv General Staff Reports, KA MKFF). Contemporary international war archives & diplomatic/military intelligence reporting documenting a distinct regional resistance engagement 100% satisfies the standalone article notability thresholds under WP:NTRIGUE & WP:GNG. As the 2016 afd precedent for this page already concluded, the topic is entirely notable. While the article's prose text can be further expanded & refined under WP:PRESERVE, completely erasing a text validated conflict is entirely unwarranted.
Keep I don't see valid reason to delete this article. I think you didn't look closely enough at the sources, because they explicitly use terms like "uprising," "battles," and "rebellion," describing everything in detail, which satisfies WP:GNG. If you think the article should be renamed to a more accurate title, I will personally support that move, and I suggest two options: "Luma uprising" or "Battles of Lumë". If the current title is considered inaccurate, the standard Wikipedia procedure under WP:RM and WP:NDESC is simply to move the page to a descriptive title, not to delete a well-documented historical military conflict.
Sources
The official Serbian military historiography, published by the Military History Institute, dedicates specific chapters to these exact operations, defining them as an uprising and a series of battles. The records detail the engagement of the main forces of the Šumadija Division I in the Luma region, noting that initial forces were insufficient to suppress the uprising, prompting the army commander to quickly intervene with main forces Пошто у почетку ангажоване снаге нису биле довољне да угуше устанак у Љуми...то је, према оцени команданта армије, требало брзо интервенисати и покорити побуњене албанске области. translanting (Since the forces initially deployed were insufficient to suppress the uprising in Luma... according to the army commander's assessment, it was necessary to intervene swiftly and subjugate the rebellious Albanian regions)[1].
The military documents consistently use the terms battles, rebellions, and insurgents, describing operations such as чистећи од албанских устаника пределе источно од Коритника translat (clearing the areas east of Koritnik of Albanian insurgents). The official records further detail how the offensive culminated when Serbian forces reached the Velešnica river, describing it as the epicenter of the албанских побуна(Albanian rebellions). The documents state that pressed by Serbian attacks from the south, east, and north, the local population was forced to surrender their weapons, concluding that Побуна у Љуми и Задримљу била је угушена translation (The rebellion in Luma and Zadrima was suppressed)[1].
Historian Dr. Miloš Jagodić states that battles were fought in Luma "од 15. новембра до 2. децембра, вођене борбе у Љуми" translation (from 15 November to 2 December, battles were fought in Luma)[2].
Modern military historian Dr. Mile Bjelajac documents the revolts in the rear (Ljuma) and subsequent armed clashes, noting that initial forces and reinforcements faced heavy casualties, requiring further battalion-strong reinforcements until on 5 December, resistance in Ljuma was suppressed, but at the price of destroying villages from Feta to Spas, all of which offered armed resistance.[3]
The Albanian historiography perfectly mirrors these military facts. Historian Dr. Liman Rushiti uses the plural albanian word for battles in his research page 163, confirming the massive arrival of reinforcements from the Serbian Third Army and the subsequent retreat of the local Albanian forces after the betejave të përgjakshme(bloody battles).[4]
You can easily find Robert Elsie book online and download it for free as a PDF. I would post the link here, but Wikipedia copyright rules don't allow it. You can easily find it yourself in just a few seconds.
Since the military history and academic sources mention "battles," "uprising," and "rebellion" in Luma and describe the entire series of events in detail, the best solution is to rename the article, as I already suggested. Deletion is absolutely not an option.FranéRogoz (talk) 06:12, 29 July 2026 (UTC)reply
I'd appreciate it if you didn't accuse me of not reading the sources when I spent time going through every source currently in the article. I'll respond to your new ones above later. InfernoHues (talk) 06:22, 29 July 2026 (UTC)reply
I didn't mean to accuse you at all, I might have just worded it poorly or you misunderstood me. What I meant was that you probably didn't read the sources closely enough. But I totally get it, there are a lot of them and some are in foreign languages. That's exactly why whenever I quote those sources, I always make sure to include both the original text and the English translation, just to make it easier for everyone to follow. FranéRogoz (talk) 13:02, 29 July 2026 (UTC)reply
If we look at the literature, the sources actually do treat this as a distinct event rather than just a general part of the broader war. For instance, albanian historian Liman Rushiti states that a front was opened there, writing: page 162 Në Lumë, pra, ishte hapur frronti i luftës kundër ushtrisë serbe translation In Luma, therefore, a front was opened against the Serbian army. He also clearly uses the word "battles" to describe the clashes: page 163 pas betejave të përgjakshme te Ura e Vezirit, Kulla e Lumës, Rrafshi i Lumës translation after the bloody battles at the Vizier Bridge, the Tower of Luma, the Plain of Luma. This perfectly matches the Military History Institute, which covers this exact conflict in its own dedicated chapters, calling it Борбе делова Треће армије у области Љуме translation Battles of the parts of the Third Army in the Luma region. Now that we have both Serbian and Albanian sources defining this as an front with actual battles, we definitely have enough evidence for a standalone page. FranéRogoz (talk) 22:34, 30 July 2026 (UTC)reply
Lean merge - I wouldn’t rule out the possibility of more coverage existing, but based on what has been presented here, I’m not seeing WP:GNG coverage of the topic separate from The First Balkan War. Sources variously refer to lowercase-b battles (and other nouns) in Lumë as part of more in depth coverage of the war (or often slightly more narrowly, Albanian participation in the war). The quotes that FR has provided here are honestly rather damning to their own argument, if they are truly the extent of coverage that exists. We don’t appear to have any reliable sources focusing specifically on the battle as a topic in itself, and the level of coverage in most sources is fleeting. The reader is better served by presenting this information in the broader context of the war that it occurred in rather than cobbling together a narrative of a singular “battle”. signed, Rosguilltalk16:35, 29 July 2026 (UTC)reply
InfernoHues why do you think there is a problem with the source-text integrity? The text in the article is written perfectly well and accurately reflects exactly what is stated in the literature used as sources. I don't see any problem with it, nor has anyone complained about the text of the article itself until now. RfC was started exclusively because of a failure to agree on the infobox results, not because of the integrity of the source text. If you feel the current text needs improvements, that is absolutely not a valid rationale for deletion or merging. FranéRogoz (talk) 18:19, 29 July 2026 (UTC)reply
Source-text integrity isn't a reason to delete, but it is a reason to support deletion over merging.
An example of a line not backed up by the source cited: "However, this force grew, and approximately 2,000 Albanian fighters, supported by two slow-firing artillery pieces, deployed in a horseshoe formation, encircling the Serbian positions from the east and west."
I just fixed it. I admit it was my mistake, happens to the best of us. I accidentally cited Qafleshi instead of the Military History Institute for that specific part. Since you mentioned there are other examples, please list them and I'll fix them, it's not a problem.
Again, I see no reason for either merging or deleting the article. For something like that, you must have a very strong rationale and evidence that contradicts the sources in the article. As I already wrote, the Military History Institute explicitly highlights and names these events: Борбе делова Треће армије у области Љуме translation Battles of the parts of the 3rd Army in the Luma region and Ангажовање главних снага Шумадијске дивизије I у области Љуме translation Engagement of the main forces of the Šumadija Division I in the Luma region, detailing the battles, the quelling of the uprising, etc. Then there is also the coverage by Albanian historians. So, there are more than enough sources for the article to remain standalone. FranéRogoz (talk) 06:15, 30 July 2026 (UTC)reply
Those short quotes were meant to highlight the specific terminology used by historians, not to show the full scale of the coverage. The actual source material is far from fleeting. For instance, the official publication by the Military History Institute ("Prvi balkanski rat 1912-1913, knjiga prva") dedicates entire sub-chapters to the day by day operations and tactical engagements in the Luma region. This includes sections like "Engagement of the main forces in the Luma region" and "Battles of units of the Third Army in the Luma region".
These official military sources provide extensive, detailed chronological history about the conflict between the Serbian army and Albanian insurgents. So it's completely clear that this topic easily meets all the criteria for a standalone article under WP:GNG. Dumping all of these specific troop movements into the general First Balkan War article would clutter it. Therefore, there is no valid reason to delete this article. I would completely understand the nomination if there were no military historical or academic sources tracking these events. But with all these sources explicitly detailing the battles, the uprising, the insurgents, and the entire timeline of the conflict, deletion is uncalled for. The article covers a well documented historical event and should definitely be kept. FranéRogoz (talk) 18:02, 29 July 2026 (UTC)reply
The links open perfectly fine for me, though the site does glitch occasionally. The Ministry of Culture has been doing maintenance and changes on the website over the last few days, so the page sometimes fails to load and throws an error, it happened to me a few times too. Just try checking back or refreshing a few times throughout the day. FranéRogoz (talk) 18:46, 29 July 2026 (UTC)reply
Ok, I was able to get through to the "Engagement" source, still no luck with the other one. I'm not sure it moves the needle for me much either way: it does provide extensive details of troop movements, but it's still not standalone coverage of the battle, nor does it attempt to canonically name the distinct event, and its delimitation from uprisings and military maneuvers in Has and Dukagjin remains somewhat ambiguous. signed, Rosguilltalk18:54, 29 July 2026 (UTC)reply
Got through to the second one as well. I have a similar impression here: it speaks only of engagements Nov. 8-Nov. 17, ending with the "defeat" and "withdrawal" of Serbian forces, and operations in Lume proper appear to be mixed with " battles near Vicaj and on the Ljuma River". The article ends with discussing in multiple paragraphs how "the reasons for the failure of this detachment are numerous" with no further discussion of events following Nov. 18. If all of the sources were like this one, there'd be a strong case for calling the battle an Albanian victory that concluded on the 17th. Which brings us back to the issue that sources do not seem interested in defining a distinct "Battle of Lume", instead describing a range of operations that occurred in and around the region over a period of over a month. Obviously, sometimes such large-scale engagements are identified and named by historians and media, as with The Battle of France, but that doesn't appear to have occurred here. signed, Rosguilltalk19:09, 29 July 2026 (UTC)reply
I believe a mistake is being made here by focusing strictly on the opening week and completely overlooking the massive Serbian counter-offensive that immediately followed. According to the detailed records from the Military History Institute, the campaign did not end on 17 November, rather, the deployment of the main forces of the Šumadija Division I led to a clear final reality where Побуна у Љуми била је угушена(The rebellion in Luma was suppressed). Dr. Mile Bjelajac explicitly details this chronological timeline, confirming that when initial detachments and reinforcements faced casualties, the Serbian Command sent further battalion-strong reinforcements until finally, on 5 December, resistance in Ljuma was suppressed, but at the price of destroying villages from Feta to Spas, all of which offered armed resistance. Jagodić confirming continuous "battles in Luma" from 15 November through 2 December. Evaluating a multi-week campaign solely by its initial tactical phase and claiming an "Albanian victory" based on a few days of heavy resistance is historically misleading. By that logic, one could erroneously classify the First Serbian Uprising as a "Serbian victory" because the rebels successfully resisted for years, completely ignoring that the Ottoman Empire ultimately crushed the rebellion and restored its control. The Albanian academic Dr. Liman Rushiti covers these exact events in his research and directly confirms what I have been pointing out, explicitly documenting the arrival of heavy Serbian reinforcements and the subsequent forced retreat of local Albanian forces after bloody battles, while Western scholars like Robert Elsie confirm that Serbia ultimately conquered Luma. Therefore, the final strategic outcome determines the infobox. If you believe that the term "Battle" does not fully encompass this month-long series of engagements and operations, then the best course is to rename the article, as I have already suggested. I do not see a third option as a viable possibility here. FranéRogoz (talk) 20:05, 29 July 2026 (UTC)reply
{{WPSQ|class=B <!-- 1. It is suitably referenced, and all major points are appropriately cited. --> |B-Class-1=yes <!-- 2. It reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain major omissions or inaccuracies. --> |B-Class-2=yes <!-- 3. It has a defined structure, including a lead section and one or more sections of content. --> |B-Class-3=yes <!-- 4. It is free from major grammatical errors. --> |B-Class-4=yes <!-- 5. It contains appropriate supporting materials, such as an infobox, images, or diagrams. --> |B-Class-5=yes <!-- 6. It is written from a neutral point of view. --> |B-Class-6=yes
|importance=Mid}}
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... that Gramoz Palushi was murdered while he was celebrating the football victory of Albania over Greece? (appeared on 5 January 2011)
... that in the 1984 film Who Dies on His Feet, Albanian actor Llazi Sërbo rode a descendant of Naklon, a horse that Stalin had donated to Albania? (appeared on 9 November 2010)
30 Jul 2026 – Albania–Taiwan relations(talk · edit · hist) was PRODed by Kowal2701 (t · c): Presumptive removal of LLM-generated content, see {{slink|Wikipedia:AI noticeboard#User:Heeheemalu}}. Feel free to reinstate by following the procedures for disputing presumptive removal of LLM-generated content.
[1] A collection of works dealing with Albanian history and culture.
Antonia Young; John Hodgson; William B. Bland; Nigel Young (November 1997). Albania. Clio Press. ISBN9781851092604. Retrieved 27 April 2011.
Archaeology
New publications regarding Archaeology in Albania after 2000. [2] Ancient West & East, Volume 4, Issue 1 Volume 4 of Ancient West & East, No 1 Gocha Tsetskhladze Publisher BRILL, 2005 ISBN9004141766, 9789004141766 Length 256 pages
A summary of Myzafer Korkuti work can be found here [3]
A summary by Shaban Demiraj link [5] The Indo-European languages Routledge language family descriptions Authors Anna Giacalone Ramat, Paolo Ramat Editors Anna Giacalone Ramat, Paolo Ramat Edition illustrated Publisher Taylor & Francis, 1998 ISBN041506449X, 9780415064491 Length 526 pages
Cimochowski, W. "Prejardhja e gjuhës shqipe," BUShT 1958:2.37-53. Supports Illyrian kinship of Albanian. (see Hamp 1963)
Cimochowski, Waclaw. Des recherches sur la toponomastique de l'Albanie. LP VIII, 1960.(short version at Hamp 1963)
Encyclopedia of Indo-European culture By J. P. Mallory, Douglas Q. Adams Edition: illustrated Published by Taylor & Francis, 1997 ISBN1884964982, 9781884964985 link here [6]
Eric P. Hamp The position of Albanian in Ancient Indo-European Dialects Publisher University of California Press link here [7]
Shaban Demiraj Gjuhesi ballkanike here the link [8]
Victor A. Friedman (vfriedm@midway.uchicago.edu) Albanian Grammar Victor A. Friedman A version of this grammar was published in
Studies on Albanian and Other Balkan Language by Victor A. Friedman Peja: Dukagjini. 2004.the link here [9]
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