Talk:Southern Levant

Major revamp

User:Oncenawhile invited me to come back and participate in the ongoing discussion.

I suggested we should be clear to our readers that this term is primarily used in archaeology to avoid political overtones. I didn't make explicit suggestions about how to do that in the RfC closure because that wouldn't be appropriate as part of a closure. I'm happy to make suggestions as a follow-up now but procedurally that means I'm now an involved editor.

I note that much of the content in the lead section aren't repeated in the following sections. So if I were to brush up the article, I would merge the existing lead section into the "Terminology" section, then write a completely new lead section to summarise the article. I might also rename "History" to "Archaeological findings".

I'm on the move for the next 2 days or so, so I can't do a major edit to the article myself at the moment. But I'm happy to muck in later on if welcome. Deryck C. 22:32, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Hi Deryck, thanks for agreeing to help - the one other editor and I are not doing too well on our own.

I am fine with your overall proposal subject to one point - we don't have any sources stating that "Southern Levant" is used to avoid political overtones. The relevant source states that "Levant" is used to avoid political overtones. It may seem like a subtle point but it's at the heart of our ongoing dispute here. Oncenawhile (talk) 22:47, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks Deryck, looking forward to working with you and other editors on the article. The sources do refer directly to the southern Levant in terms of avoiding political overtones/as a neutral term. Dever and Sagona describe the southern Levant as non-political and strictly geographical, while Flannery describes the term as "generic" and Whiting writes of the southern Levant "The term has been used to avoid confusion with the 'Israel' of the Old Testament and because of the political sensitivity in the area". Burke describes the apolitical nature of the word Levant itself (including both the northern and southern Levant) as does Levy Drsmoo (talk) 23:30, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

The problem is that none of these sources provide the meta statement that the term Southern Levant is used in the mainstream in order to be apolitical. Whilst we may want to conclude that some are close enough to make a jump (synth), such a jump would give a misleading impression because we certainly have nothing close to suggesting that the term "Southern Levant", apolitical or not, is in mainstream usage. In fact, the three sources above which directly advocate use of the term (Sagona de Geus, Whiting and Flannery - note that Dever advocates Near East) are doing just that - advocating - and are not providing any commentary on the extent of wider usage. And for every advocate there is a critic - de Geus, Arnold and Paléorient call the term Southern Levant awkward, strange and imprecise, respectively. The only two meta sources which provide a scholarly description of wider usage (Burke and Levy) are actually talking above the Levant (not the southern part), and Burke says the terms which are actually used for the southern part are Israel and Canaan, not Southern Levant. Oncenawhile (talk) 07:11, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Break

I am not sure that the term is "primarily used in archaeology to avoid political overtones". Certainly that hasn't been my experience, as an archaeologist working in the Southern Levant. I realise that doesn't get us anywhere, though.

It seems to me from reading this talk page that we've already tried and failed to construct that narrative out of the scant mentions in the few "meta" sources we have. Clearly, some scholars have moved from "Syro-Palestinian Archaeology" to "Southern Levantine archaeology" to avoid political overtones, and have discussed the term in that light. But that does not mean the term originated or is primarily used in that way; cf. BCE/CE, which many people consciously switched to for political neutrality, but which had an independent existence long before that, and many more people now use purely out of convention. My suspicion is that political concerns are much more relevant in the archaeology of historical periods, and especially in American "biblical archaeology", which is beset with these kind of problems. But the region also has a prehistory that has nothing to do with the Bible or the Israeli-Palestine conflict, where using biblical terminology like "Israel and Canaan" would be absurd, and "Southern Levant" is simply the obvious term for the geographic region. Scanning Google Scholar suggests to me that papers on these early periods actually make up a significant portion, if not a majority, of sources that use the phrase "Southern Levant". The problem is those who simply use the term as a straightforward geographical description are unlikely to write about it in a "meta" way.

So what I'd suggest is that rather than obsessing over a political debate which is barely visible in our sources, we take the tens of thousands of RSs that use the term as evidence that it is notable and widely accepted term for a geographic region (albeit perhaps only within the field of archaeology), and get to work on writing an article about that: its geography, climate, history, etc. Joe Roe (talk) 13:48, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

One last thing I'd add is that, as far as I know, there are no other names for this region. There are names for its constituent parts (Israel, Judea, Canaan, Palestine, Transjordan, Negev, Sinai, Al-Hamad) and larger regions that include it (Levant, Syria, Syria-Palestine, Holy Land, Near East, Middle East, Eastern Mediterranean), but nothing that's used in precisely the same way. I'd suggest that justifies us having an article that extends beyond a discussion of terminology, and that as long as that expansion was done carefully it would be more than a content fork (as was suggested on my talk page.) Joe Roe (talk) 14:01, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Hi @Joe Roe: many thanks and I like your thinking. One point we need to agree on before approaching such a task is what actually is the definition of the region. Your posts above suggest you have a clear sense of this in your mind, so it would be great if you could share with us. We then need to square that with all the other scholarly defintions proposed, such as those at: #Sources_providing_a_definition_of_the_Southern_Levant. Oncenawhile (talk) 16:56, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. I realise you and Drsmoo have put a lot of effort into this article and my apologies if the above comes across as me cutting through that, but you did ask for outside opinions!

I think the definition in my head is more or less in line with the sources collected above. The quick and easy definition is Israel, Palestine and Jordan (the modern countries). Coming up with geographical boundaries makes things more fuzzy, especially in the north and east: but the Litani River seems to be commonly cited, and you can imagine a line drawn between that and the Jebel Druze such that it includes a bit of southern Lebanon and Syria (but not the Damascus basin); everyone agrees the eastern boundary is "the desert" but it's a bit unclear where the desert begins. There's a somewhat Israel-centric tendency in the later archaeology of the region that would put say you're in desert as soon as you're out of the rift valley or even as soon as you cross the Jordan, but in reality there's a semi-arid zone that you could see extending as far as the Iraqi-Jordanian border (especially in prehistory) which I think ought to be included. Joe Roe (talk) 17:26, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Lemme see. If I were to rewrite the lead section, I'll write it as such:

In archaeology, the Southern Levant refers to the geographical area that encompasses the southern half of the Levant. This terminology is a strictly geographical designations and is often chosen to avoid political overtones of other names for the area such as Syria-Palestine.

Evidence of human civilisation in the region since pre-history has been found. Artefacts from various cultures throughout the Bronze Age and the Iron Age have also been excavated. Later historical periods in the region from the Assyrian Empire onwards are generally named after the reigning dynasty. Because of its rich history, the Southern Levant is among the most extensively excavated regions in the world.

The area of the Southern Levant corresponds approximately to modern Israel, Palestine, and Jordan; some definitions include parts of nearby territories.

...and then merge the existing lead section's content to the "terminology" section as appropriate. Deryck C. 13:53, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

I think that's a significant improvement over what we have now, both in terms of accuracy and readability. I'd suggest maybe dropping the "In archaeology," – it's not solely used in archaeology, even if it is primarily (e.g. ). I also think the second paragraph doesn't say a great deal—every part of the world has a prehistory and a history that is "rich" in some way—so perhaps it would be better to hold off putting history in the lead until we have something more fleshed-out to summarise. So I'd suggest something like this:

The Southern Levant is a geographical region encompassing the southern half of the Levant. It corresponds approximately to modern-day Israel, Palestine, and Jordan; some definitions also include southern Lebanon, southern Syria and/or the Sinai Peninsula. As a strictly geographical description, it is often used by archaeologists and historians to avoid the religious and political connotations of other names for the area such as Palestine, Canaan, the Land of Israel or the Holy Land.

Joe Roe (talk) 16:46, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

I think that works really well! Drsmoo (talk) 16:47, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure about listing out the overloaded placenames in the last sentence, but I can live with that. Actually I'll make the edit now to get us started. Deryck C. 17:14, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

My concern with this lead paragraph is that we have no source for the last sentence. See my post immediately above the word "Break" above this thread (the post was timestamped 07:11, 26 July 2016). Oncenawhile (talk) 19:39, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

We do have sources though, in the body paragraph which the lead references. Drsmoo (talk) 20:08, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

No we do not. As I have explained above, none of the sources state that "often chosen to avoid political overtones of other names". Levant yes, but not Southern Levant. Even if we put sources aside, one can't argue that Palestine / Land of Israel / Southern Levant are all different regions, and also argue that they are used as synonyms. Oncenawhile (talk) 21:51, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Drsmoo's point here. Avoiding political and/or religious connotations is basically what Burke, De Geus, and Arnold are all trying to do. It may calm down some controversy by reducing the amount of discussion in the lead on which terms they're trying to avoid and have that discussion in the body text instead... Deryck C. 10:42, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

I think that Joe's proposal is fine. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:43, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

@Oncenawhile: Would removing the references to specific alternative terms assuage your concerns? Or is the assertion that S. Levant is used out of political correctness in general? I see Deryck's point that the list may be a bit much for the lead, and in the body we could explain that they are not completely coterminous with "Southern Levant", but are terms for similar-ish regions that historically have served the same function in scholarly literature. Joe Roe (talk) 13:22, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Hi Joe, I am fine with the similar terms - in the RFC above I had advocated including them in the lead. The conversation around the list of partially-synonymous names has been very confusing to date, with some individual editors making both sides of the argument in different circumstances.

My focus is whether the statement re political correctness is OR, and whether we are in danger of misleading readers as a result. I look at is as follows: it is clear some writers have advocated for its use as an apolitical term. They are explictly advocating though, which suggests such logic is not widespread. We have two meta-sources which explain that Levant is used in an apolitical sense versus Syria-Palestine, but these same sources do not go on to make the same statement regarding "Southern Levant". One of these goes on to explain that most PhD's use the terms Israel or Canaan instead. And Canaan is certain apolitical.

Oncenawhile (talk) 17:54, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

I agree, it's definitely a case of some people using it that way (a minority, I suspect) and I think the article puts a tad too much emphasis on that at the moment. Maybe for a start we could switch "it is often" to "it is sometimes"? Joe Roe (talk) 20:00, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Thank you Joe, "It is sometimes" is good. There are scholarly sources which state that "many" (in work related to biblical archaeology) have adopted the term, and that the term is popular (in that field) for that reason, but I agree that the article should focus primarily on the actual region of the southern Levant (as you wrote: "its geography, climate, history, etc."). Given that the article is for a geographical region, which of course far predates biblical archaeology, it does seem that a bit too much emphasis is being placed on usage of the term by those studying biblical archaeology. Now that the map seems to be sorted, I'd be happy to help with writing up a geography section. Drsmoo (talk) 21:30, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

I think we're reaching a sensible position here. My remaining concern is that the lead is POV as to usage of the term, since it includes a sentence stating the key argument used by those who advocate for use of the term (for which we have three underlying scholars wih scholars advocating), but nothing showing the concerns raised around usage (for which we also have three scholars providing critique). Oncenawhile (talk) 07:30, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

I couldn't disagree more strongly. As was mentioned previously, there's no scholarly debate over usage of the term, and there isn't a single source which describes usage of southern Levant as controversial. Of the sources you described as critical, De Geus directly says he advocates for use of southern Levant in the chapter, Arnold directly says he uses southern Levant in the chapter, and Palorient continue to use southern Levant and have done so hundreds of times. In contrast, there are reliable sources which describe the term southern Levant as being popular in biblical archaeology due to its neutrality:

• “He advocated for more neutral terms instead, some of which, such as “archaeology of the southern Levant,” have caught on and are in use today.”

There are also multiple sources which describe southern Levant as being neutral (not advocating, but stating its neutrality as a fact):

• “The term 'southern Levant' has been used in general to designate the area presently occupied by the modern countries of Israel and Jordan. This term has been used to avoid confusion with the 'Israel' of the Old Testament and because of the political sensitivity in the area.“ - Whiting

• “We will refer to this region by the generic term Southern Levant” - Flannery

• “In that case the area should really be referred to by a broader and more neutral term such as the ‘southern Levant’” - Fischer

• “If 'Palestine' is to be avoided for related reasons, 'South Levant' or some other neutral terms should be used” - Cobbing

• "The Southern Levant, a politically correct term to indicate the complex of Jordan-Palestine-Israel, with the addition of Lebanon” - Liverani

• “(Note here, too, my use of the politically neutral appellation ‘southern Levant’)” - Joffe

• "In this thesis the term 'southern Levant' will be used to refer to the modern states of Israel and Jordan, the Occupied Territories, and the Sinai peninsula. To subdivide this region the term ' Transjordan' will be used to refer to the area east of the Dead Sea Fault (delineated by the Hulah Valley, the Sea of Galilee, the Jordan Valley, the Dead Sea and the Wadi Araba), while the term 'Cisjordan will be used to refer to the area west of this line. These terms are used as they are the most politically neutral terms available." - Rutter

The idea that we must "balance the lead" to satisfy a "controversy" which isn't mentioned in any reliable source, based on "critical opinions" from authors who advocate and use the term regularly, is nonsensical. Drsmoo (talk) 09:17, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps you have misread my post? This doesn't appear to relate to the point I made. Or are you referring to someone else's post? I can't see where anyone mentioned a controversy. There are simply arguments for and against the usage of the term, as in eveything in life. Oncenawhile (talk) 15:32, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Something spoken in the actual Hebrew language

Just out of curiosity 24.116.42.170 (talk) 22:53, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

"Palestine and Israel" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Palestine and Israel has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at eWikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 September 3 § Palestine and Israel until a consensus is reached. — Godsy ^(TALK_CONT) 07:01, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Good source for terminology section

• Britain's Levantine Empire, 1914-1923 - It is a deeply orientalist term, a critique not currently represented in this article.Tiamut (talk) 21:25, 9 May 2026 (UTC)