Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 April 23
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April 23
[edit]On the Discussion page for the artist Đorđe Andrejević Kun, I've posted a query regarding the pronunciation of the artist's name. I need to transcribe his name into Hebrew and English; for the latter, the data base program uses only Roman alphabetic characters and doesn't support diacritics. -- Thanks, Deborahjay 06:35, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- I can't give you IPA or a standard English transcription, but it's pronounced Djordjë Andreyevich Koon. ---Sluzzelin talk 06:44, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- Đorđe is the Serbian form of George, if that helps. Adam Bishop 07:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- (Responding to the original's poster follow-up question on my user talk page) The sound of dj is that of j in jay, as in Deborahjay. And the 'ë' was supposed to signify a monophtong at the end, like 'é' in French, and unlike the anglotypical diphtong ay in Deborahjay. ---Sluzzelin talk 07:37, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- It's not customary to transliterate Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian into English, since they can be written in the Latin alphabet. The only commonly used replacement is dj in place of đ; otherwise diacritics are simply dropped (for example Zoran Đinđić was usually known as Zoran Djindjic in the English-language press). So for your English database, I'd recommend Djordje Andrejevic Kun. For Hebrew, how about ג׳ורג׳ה אנדריוויטש קון? —Angr 16:18, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks, that's what we'll use in the English. As for the Hebrew, note the conventional spelling of the ending ,'ביץ- ; the way you wrote it is characteristic of Yiddish. True, the "ב" in the initial position of the syllable ought to take a dagesh and be pronounced as though /b/ rather than /v/, but this is apparently a time-honored practice to which our Archives' data base adheres. -- Deborahjay 20:50, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- It's not customary to transliterate Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian into English, since they can be written in the Latin alphabet. The only commonly used replacement is dj in place of đ; otherwise diacritics are simply dropped (for example Zoran Đinđić was usually known as Zoran Djindjic in the English-language press). So for your English database, I'd recommend Djordje Andrejevic Kun. For Hebrew, how about ג׳ורג׳ה אנדריוויטש קון? —Angr 16:18, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- (Responding to the original's poster follow-up question on my user talk page) The sound of dj is that of j in jay, as in Deborahjay. And the 'ë' was supposed to signify a monophtong at the end, like 'é' in French, and unlike the anglotypical diphtong ay in Deborahjay. ---Sluzzelin talk 07:37, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- Đorđe is the Serbian form of George, if that helps. Adam Bishop 07:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- Is there any way to make it clear in Hebrew that the name is four syllables long? אנדריביץ׳ looks so much like "Andrivich" instead of "Andreyevich". —Angr 21:07, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry, hadn't noticed the original suggestion was for "אנדרי"; we would use a double yod, i.e. "אנדריי", to indicate that vowel. It approximates as "Andreyvich" which is about as close as Hebrew gets; if you think that's bad, I can assure you that the Hebrew transcription of French is far less adequate! -- Deborahjay 21:26, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- Is there any way to make it clear in Hebrew that the name is four syllables long? אנדריביץ׳ looks so much like "Andrivich" instead of "Andreyevich". —Angr 21:07, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- When is qoph (ק) preferred to kaph? —Tamfang 20:26, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- I don't know; I suppose kaph would work just as well, but my impression (which is based on very limited evidence and could easily be wrong) is that Modern Hebrew prefers qoph to kaph letters when transcribing foreign /k/ sounds. —Angr 20:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- Confirming Angr's latter remark on the use of qoph (ק) in transcription or transliteration of foreign names and words. Additionally, the letter kaph (כ) only has the /k/ sound in the initial position of a syllable, so doesn't serve the purpose across the board. I believe the same rule applies in Yiddish, another language written in Hebrew characters. -- Deborahjay 20:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- In Yiddish, /k/ is always spelled with qoph, while kaph only has the /x/ sound, except in words of Hebrew/Aramaic origin, which are spelled as in the original language. So the Yiddish word for kosher starts with a kaph, because it does in Hebrew, but that's one of the few times kaph has the /k/ sound. In Yiddish, kaph is spelled with the dagesh (כּ) when it has the /k/ sound. —Angr 20:50, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- Quite so, and how revealing of my own cultural bias: I didn't mention the use of kaph in words of Hebrew origin, because I was thinking only of words that entered Yiddish from "foreign" languages, and evidently I consider Hebrew, as a Jewish language, to be integral to Yiddish! -- Deborahjay 21:30, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- In Yiddish, /k/ is always spelled with qoph, while kaph only has the /x/ sound, except in words of Hebrew/Aramaic origin, which are spelled as in the original language. So the Yiddish word for kosher starts with a kaph, because it does in Hebrew, but that's one of the few times kaph has the /k/ sound. In Yiddish, kaph is spelled with the dagesh (כּ) when it has the /k/ sound. —Angr 20:50, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- Confirming Angr's latter remark on the use of qoph (ק) in transcription or transliteration of foreign names and words. Additionally, the letter kaph (כ) only has the /k/ sound in the initial position of a syllable, so doesn't serve the purpose across the board. I believe the same rule applies in Yiddish, another language written in Hebrew characters. -- Deborahjay 20:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- I don't know; I suppose kaph would work just as well, but my impression (which is based on very limited evidence and could easily be wrong) is that Modern Hebrew prefers qoph to kaph letters when transcribing foreign /k/ sounds. —Angr 20:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- When is qoph (ק) preferred to kaph? —Tamfang 20:26, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Racking my brains for an english term.
[edit]I once heard a really nice term for the dirt paths that form on grass from people walking over the grass to take a shortcut. Something like "Persuasion lines". But much more elegant. I've been racking my brain for weeks! Capuchin 19:35, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- Desire lines? ---Sluzzelin talk 19:38, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you! I just could not think of the word desire!! Capuchin 19:39, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Rendering my name in Japanese
[edit]I'm looking for some guidence in how to write my name (Matthew Durrant) in katakana. I thought something simple like マト ヅラント would work, but a little bit of Googling suggests that this isn't a very common transliteration (or it could just be that Durrant is a quite rare surname in Japan?). Can anyone with more knowledge suggest something? (Also, if there are any particularly interesting ways of spelling my name with kanji...) Thanks. Sum0 20:05, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- The usual transliteration of Matthew is マシュー (i.e. Mashuu), though マット (Matto) works for Matt. As for Durrant, it looks like you're paying too close attention to the spelling and not the pronunciation: assuming Durrant is pronounced the way it looks, the u corresponds to Japanese a, not u; and the kana ヅ is pronounced zu, not du. I guess Durrant would be ダラント.
- Foreign names are not usually written in kanji. --Ptcamn 20:14, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for the reply, it's informative. I pronounce Durrant as "duh-rant", (though it can be pronounced "doo-rant") which is indeed closer to "da" than "du" (I don't suppose it's possible to get a closer sound). Just out of interest, is there a way to get the "du" sound in katakana? Sum0 20:24, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- ドゥ, I think. And my Japanese Bible gives St. Matthew's name as マタイ (Matai). —Angr 20:29, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, ドゥ. It's sortof a kludge, as Japanese does not normally have "du". --Ptcamn 21:18, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, neither Will nor Ariel Durant has an article in the Japanese encyclopedia that would allow us to see the name is rendered. I suspect it would be ドゥラント, though. —Angr 05:34, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
- Matthew in the Japanese and Chinese Bibles are both roughly マタイ (matai) because that's taken from his Hebrew name, Mattay. And there is a Japanese Duran Duran page. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 06:32, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, neither Will nor Ariel Durant has an article in the Japanese encyclopedia that would allow us to see the name is rendered. I suspect it would be ドゥラント, though. —Angr 05:34, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, ドゥ. It's sortof a kludge, as Japanese does not normally have "du". --Ptcamn 21:18, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- ドゥ, I think. And my Japanese Bible gives St. Matthew's name as マタイ (Matai). —Angr 20:29, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for the reply, it's informative. I pronounce Durrant as "duh-rant", (though it can be pronounced "doo-rant") which is indeed closer to "da" than "du" (I don't suppose it's possible to get a closer sound). Just out of interest, is there a way to get the "du" sound in katakana? Sum0 20:24, 23 April 2007 (UTC)