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September 12

On today's episode of "Americans say the darndest things..."

Who the hell are the Joneses? I watch ALOT of American TV. I listen to American music. But I do not know who these "Joneses" are. The common phrase here is "keeping up with the Joneses." Are the Joneses like the pre-Kardashians? Are they a famous American TV family or perhaps political figures? How did this saying start existing? Can't you Americans just say "it's hard to keep up" period? Why bring up the Jones family to this? They are not related to you! (P.S. I am not anti-American. I LOVE American culture the most. It fasinates me.) •PINK RENEGADE RAIDER• (Can we just talk, figure out where we're going?) 08:32, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

"Jones" is just a placeholder, a very common name. In this case it means whatever family that YOU want to keep up with. --~2026-49524-25 (talk) 08:41, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

Oh really? Wooh. I hear "Joneses" more often. You don't hear other examples other than that or Kardashians. Face it nobody says "keeping up with the Martinezes" or "keeping up with the Wongs" or "keeping up with the Nguyens." •PINK RENEGADE RAIDER• (Can we just talk, figure out where we're going?) 08:46, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

The title "Keeping up with the Kardashians" was clearly picked as an allusion, possibly due to is alliterative aspects. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 09:51, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

The expression, and its meaning, originate as the title of a cartoon strip by Arthur R. “Pop” Momand inaugurated in The New York Globe on March 31, 1913. Amazing what a couple of minutes of websearching and Wikipedia searching can reveal.

Incidentally, the expression is also so commonplace in the UK that I initially assumed it originated here. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-43920-01 (talk) 10:38, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

See our own article Keeping up with the Joneses and the Wiktionary entry keep up with the Joneses.  ​‑‑Lambiam 15:49, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

"The Joneses" were proverbial in Australia of the 1870s, and probably elsewhere, as a family of lower social standing. Doug butler (talk) 00:04, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

In the 1910s, they had apparently managed to migrate to a higher social class, at least in the US.  ​‑‑Lambiam 11:31, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

Possibly because it's a surname of English/Welsh origin and so the Joneses could be assumed to be WASPs? Proteus (Talk) 09:18, 14 September 2026 (UTC)

EO concurs with the Wikipedia article (or maybe vice versa). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:18, 14 September 2026 (UTC)

September 13

Mons, cœur en neige

Looks nice, but what's a good English translation of the name?

French translation request, I'm thinking of doing an English-language article (or at least article section) on this Christmas lights event in Mons, Belgium. Sources are available but I can't seem to find an official English translation. I'm planning to use the French name as the title, but any opinions on the best English translation? I've seen "Mons, Heart of Snow" or "Mons, Heart in Snow", which do people think gets the French sense more? Neither of them seems very idiomatic English to me, though, so if the second sense is better I'm wondering about making it "Mons, Heart in the Snow" which feels more natural in English to me. Blythwood (talk) 01:30, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

If you are looking to create an article in the English Wikipedia, it might be better to keep the original French name. If you want a translation how about: "Snowy heart"? But this, and those you have seen, are more literal translations. If I remember correctly though, "Cœur" can sometimes be used in the sense of the centre or core of something, and "en Neige" can be used to give a sense of the warm cozy comfort you can find in cold, wintery times. But then again, a more idiomatic translation might be something a bit less poetic, like a UK town council might come up with, such as: "Winter Festival" or "Christmas Market". Astronaut (talk) 03:27, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

@Blythwood: If there's no official translation then providing your own verges on original research. Better to use the French name inside a {{lang}} template, and give a parenthesised literal translation on the first usage; e.g. Mons, Cœur en Neige (lit. 'Heart in Snow'). Bazza 7 (talk) 11:58, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

I agree that keeping it untranslated is the best idea, seeing as there are limited English sources on the subject and there isn't an official translation. WP:UE is the relevant guideline JuniperChill (talk) 21:55, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

Almost all sources, including the website of the organizers, use the name "Mons Cœur en Neige", without comma, and label it as a Christmas Market ("Marché de Noël").  ​‑‑Lambiam 04:01, 14 September 2026 (UTC)

Absolutely, like I said it needs to use the French-language title. But if anyone can say what sense is meant that would be good, I'm not completely sure what sense "en" means here. Blythwood (talk) 09:59, 14 September 2026 (UTC)

The 'Neige' might be literal (if snow is common in Mons in December) or metaphorical for 'Winter'; 'Cœur' might be literal (the centre of Mons) or metaphorical for the 'spirit' or 'emotional core' of Mons.

Exact translations are often not possible, but perhaps something like "The Heart of Mons in Winter" conveys a generally appropriate sense. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-43920-01 (talk) 13:09, 14 September 2026 (UTC)

Another possible translation would be that the heart we are talking about here actually is made of snow. But, having visited this christmas market, I think the TA directly above is spot-on regarding the gist and intended meaning of the phrase. Lectonar (talk) 14:03, 14 September 2026 (UTC)

What makes it even harder to translate is that it's a bit of a pun, that could be read or heard as "Mon coeur en neige", i.e. "My snowy heart", which sounds quite Christmassy for us Northern Hemisphere folks. Xuxl (talk) 14:53, 14 September 2026 (UTC)

The proper noun Mons ([mɔ̃s]) is not a homophone of mon ([mɔ̃]).  ​‑‑Lambiam 19:50, 14 September 2026 (UTC)

I know that, but letters get dropped in French all the time. Xuxl (talk) 15:26, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

Not randomly, and certainly not from the names of well-known places. TooManyFingers (he/him · talk) 18:59, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

I'm hoping "This Snowy Heart of Mons" ("this snowy heart of mine") can capture some of the pun, but that might stray a little too far from the original phrase. GalacticShoe (talk) 18:01, 14 September 2026 (UTC)

I interpret the name as elliptic for Mons, avec le cœur en neige ("Mons, with its heart in snow"), where "heart" refers to the centre of the historic town while the specific term used was chosen for its poetic force.  ​‑‑Lambiam 19:54, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

A snowy heart presumably being better than an icy one? DuncanHill (talk) 20:28, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

"Mons" itself might also be either literal (the place) or a bit less literal (standing for the people of Mons or something else related). TooManyFingers (he/him · talk) 18:57, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

September 16

Dispute over preposition use in Russian (v vs. na) for countries other than Ukraine

I am looking for examples of countries or territories—other than Ukraine (v Ukraine vs. na Ukraine)—where there has been a notable diplomatic, political, or social dispute regarding the choice of the Russian preposition v (в) versus na (на).As I understand it, v generally implies "in" a sovereign state, while na historically implies "on" a territory, region, or island. While the linguistic shift and political tension surrounding Ukraine is well-documented, I am curious if similar linguistic friction has occurred in Russian usage for other places.Specifically:Are there other independent countries, semi-recognized states, or autonomous regions where the local population or government officially requests v, but standard Russian usage (or official Russian government media) stubbornly sticks to na (or vice versa)? ~2026-50008-57 (talk) 22:36, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

I am far from being an expert of the Russian language. For what it's worth: my Russian grammar (a French one) states that "the use of the prepositions *v* and *na* is determined by usage rather than by logic". Some examples are given: в Англии, в Сибири - на Кубе, на Кавказе. Note the case в + prepositional and на + prepositional. But на can be use with accusative to mean a movement against "a surface": напасть на врага (attack the ennemy). AldoSyrt (talk) 08:31, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

As is almost always the case, there are wiki pages about this topic. In Russian and in Ukrainian . – AldoSyrt (talk) 08:52, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

September 17

How is "twenty" usually pronounced in GA?

How is "twenty" usually pronounced in GA (the form of pronunciation of the English language considered to be typical of the United States, largely derived from a Midwestern accent)?

1.TWEN-tee /ˈtwɛnti/

2. TWEN-dee /ˈtwɛnt̬i/ (/t̬/ means [ɾ])

3.TWEN-ee /ˈtwɛni/ Weltrusten (talk) 10:47, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

Georgia has very different regional accents. Much of Georgia will suppress hard consonants midword and say "TWEN-ee" but, and this is the catch, they hear themselves saying "TWEN-tee." If you get into Atlanta, you hit a different accent. Hard consonants are not suppressed. They are softened and it comes out "TEN-dee." Then, if you head to the islands, you get a completely different accent where you really need to know what is being said to understand it. The best I can tell, it would sound like "dun-EE" or probably "drun-EE." Those are just three of the many regional Georgia accents. I know there are many more. ~2026-46630-01 (talk) 11:18, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

The OP's "GA" meant General American, not Georgia. Deor (talk) 12:21, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

The OP could clarify, but they seem to have moved on to other things. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:57, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

"GA" is not an actual dialect; it is just the weighted mean of the pronunciations of all the various regional American dialects. A dictionary is thus capable of providing "GA pronunciations" for words, but there are no Americans that actually "speak GA"; so if one is wanting to know how words are actually spoken by humans, hearing answers sampled from various regions is the best you can do. HierophantOfOmens (talk) 19:53, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

In rapid speech, this Midwesterner is likely to say "twunny". And, even in careful speech, TWUHN-tee (/ˈtwʌnti/). Deor (talk) 11:53, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

Rapid Midwesterner (such as Missoura) would be "twunny" as you noted and more accurately "tuuny." Slow Midwesterner (Owkalahoomah) would be "tawhunnee." But, Georgia is less Midwestern and more Southern. ~2026-46630-01 (talk) 12:40, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

I would say 3 is the most common, but in my own speech I feel that I reduce the second 't' to something rather than literally nothing maybe /ˈtwɛn-ni/ or /ˈtwɛn-ʔi/ I doubt the difference is audible. 2 is not natural for me when speaking slowly but is likely the actual articulated form in some cases. 1 is the 'standard' pronunciation used when teaching, speaking slowly, or enunciating for effect. Eluchil404 (talk) 18:35, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

If you're talking about fast speech, it's not clear there are even two distinct syllables. Could be something like [twɛ̃i] or [twɪ̃i] with a nasalized vowel in place of the /n/ and then a glide off into the /i/, possibly with a hint of a glottal stop in between, but just a hint. --Trovatore (talk) 21:50, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

Or perhaps more a hint of a nasalized tap, as, in IPA notation, [ˈtwɛɾ̃ i].  ​‑‑Lambiam 04:45, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

I don't think it's a tap. It might be a voiced velar approximant. --Trovatore (talk) 19:13, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

in Northern Missouri, the fast drawl is a result of locking the jaw. If you keep your jaw fixed, the initial 't' is soft, not with the tip of the tongue. A 'w' is more just 'uh' because the lips can't fully form the sound. So, 'w' becomes a true double 'u', the 'u-u' sound in 'tu-uny'. The 'n' is easy to form, but following with a 't' is hard to do. There is a break there. It isn't truly 'tunny' as most people say. It is more 'tun' followed by 'he' so the whole sound is 'tuunhe.' ~2026-48319-11 (talk) 10:51, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

September 20

Questions

1. Dpes Spanish have an imperative form of verb used with the pronouns él, ella, ellos and ellas? Wiktionary conjugation table for Spanish verbs only lists the pronoun usted and ustedes used with the third-person imperatives, which are identical to the third-person subjunctives.
2. Does German ever use the word bitte with du rather than Sie form of imperative, like Bitte wähl du instead of Bitte wählen sie for "Please choose"?
3. Are there any words in English where ⟨ii⟩ is pronounced /iː/?
4. Does English ever use the word "port" to mean "gate"?
5. Is this correct: "I request that the price is lowered."
6. Is this correct: "Yesterday, I drove through a road that leads from Boston to New York."

--40bus (talk) 21:10, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

1. It feels inherently strange to me using the imperative with anything but second-person. I can't really understand the logic, here. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 22:06, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

2. Apparently, in modern German there is a small movement that has proposed the form Du (with a capital D) as a variant reasonably polite but more informal than Sie, for instance in smaller businesses. However, both the variants "Bitte wähl Du" and "Bitte wähle Du" get very few Google hits. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 22:19, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

3. There are some Japanese loanwords such as shiitake, torii, Riichi mahjong and kuchisabishii. Of these, shiitake might be the most widely known. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 22:30, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

4. See Wiktionary. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 22:09, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

1. Usted and ustedes are directed to the individual you're talking to. As Wakuran indicates, directing an imperative to a true third person doesn't make sense. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:12, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

In Finnish, there is a commonly used third-person imperative like syököön hän and syökööt he. Similarly in English, there are forms let him eat and let they eat. So, in Spanish, is there a third-person imperative too? --40bus (talk) 04:38, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

Who is the speaker "let him/them eat" actually talking to? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:11, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

It's impersonal; commonly a let form translates a subjunctive, as in Let there be light. —Antonissimo (talk) 19:30, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

In "Let him eat", the imperative is "let", directed to the second person. The "eat" is not imperative. TooManyFingers (he/him · talk) 06:43, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

Yeah, I thought about the sentence "He must eat", but then the implications are rather "You must make him eat". I don't know about the semantics and connotations of the Finnish construction. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 12:13, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

The Finnish contruction is quite formal and not usually used in colloquial speech. --40bus (talk) 17:38, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

I still have trouble understanding its contextual usage. Using "be" in a passive tense, I could see the point of after some thinking. (Like "Right here, we're just existing.") But I don't really understand in which context the Finnish constrution would be used, is it similar to the Spanish Optative Subjunctive mentioned elsewhere? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 00:07, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

It is quite similar to Spanish optative subjuntive. Eläköön is just like Spanish viva. But viva is not an imperative, whereas eläköön is. --40bus (talk) 04:27, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

3. It does not appear so... except with some proper names, such as the ballplayer Torii Hunter.

5. You could say, "I request that you lower the price."

6. You could say, "I drove ON a road..."

←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:09, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

4. 'Port' used to mean 'gate' (as in gate in a city wall) in the Middle Ages. Some British cities and towns whose walls have partially survived call the gates 'ports' or name them individually as, for example, "the Westport." Note that, again as a retention from the Middle Ages and particularly in the North of Britain, 'gate' can actually mean 'street' rather than a potentially closable access point, and sometimes the two senses are not fully distinguished.

5. It is not incorrect enough to be objectionable: personally, I would say "I request that the price be lowered", but I enjoy using old-fashioned constructions.

6. Not in British English at any rate: rather than 'through' it would be 'on' or 'along' or over' (or 'across' (i.e from one side of it to the other at a crossroads, if that was what was intended). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-43920-01 (talk) 22:15, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

(4. About "gate" meaning "street": See also Danish gade and Swedish gata, from the same source as "gate" and meaning "street", but historically or less commonly also used for a passageway and other more gate-like stuff.) TooManyFingers (he/him · talk) 06:39, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

Yes, I noticed gata'' in the Swedish names of streets in Helsinki when I visited: I found it easier to navigate using the (to me) more readable Swedish names rather than the Finnish names, because although I don't speak it, being Germanic it's closer to English than Finnish is. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-43920-01 (talk) 13:24, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

It's often borrowed into Finnish as katu, I believe. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 16:53, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

3. Wii TooManyFingers (he/him · talk) 06:46, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

6. If you crashed your car through the surface of that road and got underneath it by doing so, then yes. TooManyFingers (he/him · talk) 06:51, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

Earlier this year, not too far from where I live, some people drove their campervan through a bikepath: a bridge couldn't handle their weight. Or when your strong vehicle is too tall for a weak viaduct/bridge over your road and cuts through. Ships do that sometimes. PiusImpavidus (talk) 09:25, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

2. It depends on context: In a (semi-)formal context "Bitte wähle Du" would never be used. E.g. it cannot be used for "please choose" in an Internet form, this would be wrong grammar. However, it can be used very naturally when there is an emphasis on "Du" as opposed to someone else. E.g. a dialogue in a restaurant could be like: "Which salad should we choose for sharing?" - "I can't really decide. You choose please" - this would be "Bitte wähle Du" in German. -- Jungleman33 (talk) 07:41, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

1&2: AFAIK (which is limited to some European languages), proper imperatives only come in second person, both singular and plural. Further, proper imperatives tend to come without a subject, even in languages that normally don't allow dropping the subject. But sometimes something strange happens when a third person is reused as a formal second person and requires it's own imperative, like in Spanish, German or Dutch. PiusImpavidus (talk) 08:56, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

1:I guess the Optative Subjunctive might be considered what comes closest to an imperative, in expressions like ¡Viva España! or ¡Viva el Rey! (Long live Spain! or Long live the king!) -- Jungleman33 (talk) 11:28, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

2. The imperative singular (just like the plural) in German is used without a personal pronoun: wähl(e) 'choose', gib 'give', mach(e) 'make'/'do'. Weak verbs can have an -e at the end but it can also be left out. Some strong verbs (with vocal change) do not have an -e: miss 'measure', iss 'eat', vergiss 'forget' etc. and the imperative of sein 'to be': sei: Sei [imperative 1] so gut, und öffne [imperative 2] bitte das Fenster. 'Would you be so kind and open the window, please?'

"Bitte wähle du" is possible but only in this form and if someone wants to leave the choice to someone else, - a known person that is a child, a friend, a relative, someone familiar: Bitte wähle du (für mich, i. e. anstelle meiner): saying something like: please choose instead of me. So you could also say: "Sei so gut, und öffne du (nicht ich oder jemand anderes) das Fenster." This is very rare, since the meaning shifts away from 'open the window, please' to I would like you - yes, you and noboby else - to open the windows.--~2026-51048-33 (talk) 11:33, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

The informal/familiar form of the exhortation "Please choose wisely", expressed as "Bitte wähle mit Bedacht", can be found e.g. here: , , .  ​‑‑Lambiam 19:47, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

3. Some speakers in some dialects might pronounce skiing in that fashion, especially if talking fast and not using much enunciation. I could be completely wrong, but it seems to me American Midwesterners and possibly Canadians would be more likely to do this.

4. As others have said, 'port' did used to mean gate, and I will also note this is the origin of the English would 'porter', which occupation, in the Middle Ages, was the gatekeeper at a castle. (Porters still exist but aren't castle gatekeepers anymore).

5. Is technically incorrect, but like the poster formerly known as 87.etc said, not incorrect enough that many would object to it. But the correct conjugation of the verb 'to be' in that sentence would be be, not is. HierophantOfOmens (talk) 11:34, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

Addendum 2.: The imperative with Sie can be used for one or more persons. It is a plural: "Öffnen Sie das Fenster bitte." It could be adressed to one particuliar person or to anybody that is in the room. "Sie" implies distance, the speaker doesn't know the adult person or it is someone who is ranked above the speaker (speaker is a child speaking to an adult, employee to employer etc.). The pronoun cannot be left out. If the persons are familiar, well-known - friends, family members, children etc. - then the imperative plural is used without a personal pronoun: "Öffnet das bitte Fenster." "Öffnet bitte das Fenster." (the speaker could be a teacher advising the class to open the window).--~2026-51048-33 (talk) 11:42, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

"Öffnet das bitte Fenster"? Is that correct, or some kind of mistake? The syntax feels very odd to me. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 12:01, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

Indeed. It would have to be "Öffnet bitte das Fenster". ("Bitte öffnet das Fenster" or "Öffnet das Fenster bitte" are possible too). -- Jungleman33 (talk) 12:56, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

Just a typo. I wanted to type Öffnet bitte das Fenster.--~2026-51048-33 (talk) 15:06, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

For "Listen y'all!", you can use "Höret Alle!".  ​‑‑Lambiam 20:00, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

But that would be rather old-fashioned or comical because of the /e/. I would say: "Hört mal alle (zu)!" The /e/ was frequently used in Early High German, remaining in use until the 18th/19th century, especially in literature, cf. Goethe, "Über allen Gipfeln ist Ruh / In allen Wipfeln spürest du / Kaum einen Hauch; / Die Vögelein schweigen im Walde. / Warte nur, balde / Ruhest du auch." or "Reineke Fuchs": "Ihr höret so manchen / Höret diesen denn auch." However, this came out of fashion in the 19th century. Today, it can be heard in "ecclesiastical" texts, e. g. the Bible. Thomas Mann wrote this in "Doktor Faustus": "Hört nur den Schluß, hört ihn mit mir" (Th. Mann: Doktor Faustus. Das Leben des Tonsetzers Adrian Leverkühn erzählt von einem Freunde, Frankfurt a. M. 1994, p. 648 [end of chapter XLVI]). Mann also quotes older works (Faust book etc.) or refers to Adrians works. In these quotations you can find the older forms, e. g. "'Wachet mit mir!' Adrian mochte im Werk wohl das Wort gottmenschlicher Not ins Einsam-Männlichere und Stolze, in das 'Schlafet ruhig und lasst euch nichts anfechten!' seines Faustus wenden [...]" (ibd., p. 648)--~2026-51057-80 (talk) 14:35, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

4) Not really. 'Portal' can overlap with gate and 'Porte' exists in a few fixed old phrases.

5) To my American ear it is quite wrong. I would say "I request that the price be lowered" or rephrases it as "I request that you lower the price".

6) No one does not drive through a road. Prepositions that work include "down", "along", "on", "via", or "by" though they may have slightly different shades of meaning. Eluchil404 (talk) 20:08, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

September 21

Predicting flapping in General American

In General American pronounce /t/ or /d/ as [ɾ] in these patterns:

1. vowel or /r/ + unstressed syllable beginning with /t/ or /d/ followed by a vowel

• city: /ˈsɪ.ti/ [ˈsɪ.ɾi]
• ladder: /ˈlæ.dɚ/ [ˈlæ.ɾɚ]
• party: /ˈpɑr.ti/ [ˈpʰɑɹ.ɾi]
• sanity: /ˈsæ.nə.ti/ [ˈsæ.nə.ɾi]
• editor: /ˈɛ.də.tɚ/ [ˈɛ.ɾə.ɾɚ]
• bottle: /ˈbɑ.t(ə)l/ [ˈbɑ.ɾl̩]
• pedal: /ˈpɛ.d(ə)l/ [ˈpʰɛ.ɾl̩]

Exception: /t/ or /d/ + syllabic /n/ (regional differences may exist)

• button: /ˈbʌ.t(ə)n/
• mitten: /ˈmɪ.t(ə)n/
• certain: /ˈsɝ.t(ə)n/

2. stressed vowel or /r/ + /t/ or /d/ + word boundary + unstressed syllable

• get it: /ˈɡɛt ɪt/ [ˈɡɛɾɪt]
• that is: /ˈðæt ɪz/ [ˈðæɾɪz]
• heart attack: /ˈhɑrt əˌtæk/ [ˈhɑɹɾəˌtʰæk]

3. vowel or /r/ + /t/ or /d/ + morpheme boundary + stressed vowel

• whatever: /wɑtˈɛ.vɚ/ [wɑɾˈɛ.vɚ]
• heartache: /ˈhɑrtˌeɪk/ [ˈhɑɹɾˌeɪk]

Are my rules reliable? Can you think of any counter example? Weltrusten (talk) 09:58, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

Speaking from experience in my own capacity as a native American English speaker, I don't believe there are any "rules" regarding "when to flap" vs "when not to flap". The "flapping" that sometimes is the realization of d or t is allophonic, so it is something most speakers are not consciously aware of, and most American English speakers are probably not consciously aware that the phenomenon even exists at all. Further - and this is my own personal opinion - flapping is somewhat a product of a "lazy" kind of speech that is common amongst Americans generally. In other words, it is a kind of "reduction" in phonetics. It is most certainly not phonemic, anyway, and speaking with fully enunciated [d] and [t] sounds at all times in American English would never be considered 'wrong' (and would probably be perceived by most as "better" or more proper speech). HierophantOfOmens (talk) 11:53, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

To clarify, since I kind of mixed up two distinct concepts in that post: there are some allophones in English that actually do generally follow standard "rules", even though most speakers are not conscious that they're doing so (e.g. "light" and "dark" /l/. But flapping of /d/ and /t/ is not one of those, as not flapping for those consonants would not be perceived as wrong/improper. HierophantOfOmens (talk) 12:01, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

I agree completely with the statement "I don't believe there are any rules". The accents come from learned muscle movement, not a mental list of rules for adapting phonics. An example previously mentioned here is the Northern Missouri accent. It is a very rapid form of English to the point that the lower jaw barely moves. As a result, phonics are malformed and you get an accent with "her" instead of "here" and "wursh" instead of "wash." It isn't a mental "When ear finishes a word, use er instead." It is "I'm not going to move my lower jaw enough to fully form the 'ee' in 'ear'." When you add learned cadence to it, you get a complete accent. ~2026-46630-01 (talk) 12:02, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

If you believe there aren't any rules regarding when to flap, can you give any counter example to the rules above? I'm not saying there are no regional differences, but it seems to me that most GA speakers do follow those rules in informal speech ~2026-50873-86 (talk) 12:32, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

Consider "sanity" as an example. Pronunciation is not based on learned rules. It is based on learned mechanics. You can observe the mechanics of speech and develop complex rules that mostly describe them, but you will end up with an exception, then exceptions to the exception, then exceptional exceptions that occur sometimes and not others. If you drop the concept of phonetic rules and focus on the physical mechanics, pronunciation patterns become easier to understand. I should explain that my opinion is based on acting. Voice coaches don't give you phonetic rules. They grab your jaw and train you to physically move your mouth the correct way for the accent. Once you follow the physical mechanics properly, the accent forms by itself. ~2026-46630-01 (talk) 12:53, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

You're wrong. "sanity" is not a counter example. The OP gives it themselves as an example and it strictly follows their first rule: "vowel or /r/ + unstressed syllable beginning with /t/ or /d/ followed by a vowel". Many dictionaries like Cambridge, OALD, OED also say there is a flap in this word: ~2026-50953-00 (talk) 13:20, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

If this mechanical description is truly how it works - and I'm not qualified to argue against it so I won't - then that makes it 100% certain that it causes a fairly predictable change to the pronunciation rules compared to people who don't do it. The chance that such a specific mechanical change could instead cause just random unpredictable sound changes isn't worth considering.

No accent from anywhere can "form itself", though they're usually formed very early in life, without much conscious consideration. And if this accent really had no pronunciation rules, then not only would it be impossible to figure out who was really getting it right, it would even be impossible to tell the difference between native speakers and new immigrants over the phone; "no rules" really does mean that every new immigrant automatically nails the accent on their first day (only because in a no-rules accent there's no such thing as a wrong pronunciation, but still). TooManyFingers (he/him · talk) 22:51, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

If you believe there aren't any rules regarding when to flap, can you give any counter examples to the rules above? I'm not saying there are no regional differences, but it seems to me that most GA speakers do follow those rules in informal speech ~2026-50873-86 (talk) 12:31, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

It is true that speakers do not think in terms of phonetic rules but they still exist and can be discovered and studied by linguists. No speakers of ancient Germanic named, or probably even noticed Grimm's Law but it certainly exists and can be stated as an exact rule with all exceptions accounted for with no more complexity than OP's flapping rules listed above. Also, I noticed my own flapping as a child before I studied phonetics or could described phonetically. Specifically I thought of [ɾ] as a /d/ rather than a /t/ sound so that since 'ladder' and 'latter' were both flapped I "said latter with a 'd'". That is in my idiolect [ɾ] is an unnoticed allophone of /d/ but a noticed allophone of /t/. I believe the rules given above are correct for General American. I disagree that flapping is optional in such cases, avoiding it makes one's speech sound overly articulated or hyper-corrected like that of a teacher or second language learner. Actual Americans, of all social classes, and even in formal settings flap all those stops. To not do so is to use a spelling pronunciation that is only natural in slow, hyper-articulated speech as when teaching a new word to a child. Eluchil404 (talk) 17:14, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

Wiktionary gives the GA pronunciation /ˈbɑɾɫ̩/ for bottle. It does not give a pronunciation for the phrase pedal to the metal, but mentions pedal to the medal as an eggcorn. I do not see this handled in your rules. Note, furthermore, the nasalized flap pronunciations /ˈkaʊ̯ ɾ̃ɚmɛʒɚ/ for countermeasure and /ˈpɪ ɾ̃əl/, [ˈpʰɪ ɾ̃ l̩] for pintle.  ​‑‑Lambiam 19:27, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

Flaps [ɾ] in "bottle" /ˈbɑ.t(ə)l/, "pedal" /ˈpʰɛ.d(ə)l/, and "metal" /ˈmɛ.t(ə)l/ all come from the first rule.

Flaps [ɾ] in "countermeasure" and "pintle" seem to be less common. OED says they use ordinary [t] not flaps [ɾ]. This is also true for words like "winter" or "twenty". We could call it nt-flapping since all those words contain "nt" Weltrusten (talk) 20:21, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

It depends on how you split the unflapped version into syllables. Wiktionary gives [ˈmɛd.ɫ̩] for the pronunciation of medal, and, as I see now, also /ˈpɛt.i/ for petty. Your rule needs [ˈmɛ.dɫ̩] and [ˈpɛ.ti], which seems a sensible syllabification to me but is perhaps not obviously the only valid version. Considering [ɝ] to be a vowel, the issue can be circumvented by rephrasing rule 1 as applying to an intervocalic [t] or [d].

It occurred to me that the first of the two syllables of rule 1 needs to be stressed; AFAIK the endings -ity (as in quality) and -idy (as in subsidy) are unflappable.  ​‑‑Lambiam 19:08, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

I'm not an expert at syllabification, but Merriam-Webster agrees with me. I consider it to be a better source than Wiktionary.

Both OALD, OED, and Cambridge indicate that there id a flap in "quality". I can also hear a clear flap in "subsidy" in the recording from OALD and OED Weltrusten (talk) 08:08, 23 September 2026 (UTC)

I don't think I have a nasalized flap in "counter" or "winter" I am pretty sure that the /t/ is elided completely and the cluster is simplified to just [n] so that "winner" and "winter" are homonyms. Eluchil404 (talk) 20:12, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

Other speakers might have one.  ​‑‑Lambiam 11:28, 23 September 2026 (UTC)