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July 15

Jamaica pepper

Not sure if this or the humanities desk is more appropriate. I am looking at a spice-mix recipe in Margaret Stout's Cookery for Northern Wives (1925) published in the Shetland Islands (see here). The recipe contains 1/4 oz allspice, 1/4 oz cloves, 1/4 oz ginger, 1/4 oz white pepper, 1/4 oz black pepper, 1/8 oz Jamaica pepper, and 1/8 oz cinnamon. I understand Jamaica pepper to be another name for allspice, so am unsure why the recipe contains both allspice and Jamaica pepper. Does anyone have any insight? Whonting (talk) 06:14, 15 July 2026 (UTC)

I wonder whether allspice might have meant a spice mix at that time in Europe?... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 09:56, 15 July 2026 (UTC)

I do not see a consensus on this, but I did find notes that it is important that the last three ingredients (including the Jamaica spice) are not used in the initial meatball mixture. They are added later as a binder or surface/gravy coating. Therefore, it is possible she took one recipe for the meatballs and another for the coating and slapped them together. The two recipes used different names for the same spice. ~2026-35239-54 (talk) 11:40, 15 July 2026 (UTC)

Akkadian text in Lupin III: The First (2019)

A few years ago, I encountered this piece of Akkadian in Lupin III: The First (2019). I've been periodically attempting to transcribe and translate it ever since I found it, but there is one character that still eludes me, and I was hoping someone might be able to help identify it. It's the last character of line 1, and also the last character of word 2 in line 5. What I have is here:

Transcription

1 𒐈 𒈠𒊒𒍝𒀀𒌈 𒊭 𒂵𒊭(?)
2 𒀀𒈾 𒅅𒇷𒅁𒋛
3 𒈠𒊒𒍑𒌈 𒉺𒉌𒌈
4 𒇷𒊭𒀭 𒁾𒉿𒉎 𒀭𒉌𒉎
5 𒀀𒈾 𒂵𒊭(?) 𒋗𒀀𒋾
6 𒅗𒀊𒋫

With the missing character being denoted as (?). This effort has been hampered by the fact that different fonts from different periods have radically different forms, hence the unusual appearance of 𒊒 in the text which can be seen if one uses a Neo-Assyrian font (I have been using this site for this.) Any possible candidates for the character would be helpful, at this point I'm just baffled by what it could possibly be. Thanks all! GalacticShoe (talk) 15:52, 15 July 2026 (UTC)

U+12108(GIR2) or U+1230C(U GUD) look like the closest potential matches to me, but depending on how the text was constructed (redrawn from an existing example, pasted based on aesthetics from a dictionary, or something else) it may or may not reflect actual Akkadian, of course. Eluchil404 (talk) 21:12, 15 July 2026 (UTC)

Thanks, Eluchil! The former 𒄈 does look extraordinarily similar and is my top candidate now. My only concern is that it doesn't appear to have a phonetic value; according to the Wiktionary entry, it is a Sumerogram of patrum ("dagger, knife"), which I'm having trouble fitting into the transliteration. I am fairly certain that this is meant to be actual Akkadian, as lines 3 and 4 are composed of proper Akkadian words and make grammatical sense, but I have not as of yet completed a full transliteration, normalization, or translation. For what it's worth, this is what I have so far:

Transliteration (updated as per Amble's comment)

1 3 ma-ru-ṣa-a-tum ša (ga/qa)-(ša/na) GIR₂
2 a-na ek-li-ip-se
3 ma-ru-uš-tam pa-ni-tam
4 li-ša-an DUB-pi-im an-ni-im
5 a-na (ga/qa)-(ša/na) GIR₂ šu-a-ti
6 ka-(ab/ap)-(da2/ṭa2/ta)

Normalization (updated as per Amble's comment)

3 maruṣātum ša ? ?
ana Eklipse (Eclipse)
maruštam pānītam
lišān tuppim annîm
ana ? ? šuāti
?

GalacticShoe (talk) 21:55, 15 July 2026 (UTC)

The word "(eg/ek/eq/ig/ik/iq)-(li/le)-(ib/eb/ip/ep)-(se/si)" in the second line is presumably "Eclipse", a MacGuffin in the movie. The word containing the mystery character and the word in the last line might be something similar. --Amble (talk) 17:21, 16 July 2026 (UTC)

So, besides Engrish and Flançais, we would also now have Assylian... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 17:31, 16 July 2026 (UTC)

I never even considered that a non-Akkadian "loanword" (if it can even be called that here) might be a possibility; trying to fit this into an Akkadian framework will be mildly wonky to say the least. Thanks Amble! GalacticShoe (talk) 18:28, 16 July 2026 (UTC)

It crossed my mind that the creators might be using apparently meaningful Akkadian words that sound like something else meaningful in Japanese, along the lines of Mots d'Heures: Gousses, Rames: The d'Antin Manuscript. Having no Japanese, I cannot actually tell. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-36805-68 (talk) 20:46, 16 July 2026 (UTC)

This is a good idea, but I find it unlikely. I know just enough Akkadian (one university semester) and Japanese (grew up in Japan but went to an English-speaking school) to say that this is at least somewhat grammatically-coherent Akkadian that wouldn't make sense in Japanese. GalacticShoe (talk) 21:12, 16 July 2026 (UTC)

If it's at least semi-coherent in Akkadian, can you attempt a rough translation? It's not about a dog who walks into a bar, is it? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195? ~2026-36805-68 (talk) 12:44, 17 July 2026 (UTC)

Since it's missing parts that would make it a full sentence (in particular, as far as I know there are no verbs in what I've normalized), I will try to break it down word for word.

maruṣātum: nominative plural form of feminine maruṣtum meaning "evil, distress". Combined with the previous 3, I presume the subject of this sentence is "three evils".

ša: either "of" or "that"/"which"

ana: "that"

maruštam: accusative form of maruštum, which has the same meaning as maruṣtum. This may actually be maruštum, since 𒌈 can be either "tum" or "tam", I put the accusative since I considered that more plausible at the time, but with the new reading of Eklipse, I am less sure.

pānītam: accusative of pānītum, meaning "earlier, previous". Once again might be pānītum.

maruštum/am pānītum/am: presumably this would mean "previous/earlier evil".

lišān: construct state of lišānum meaning "language, speech"

tuppim: genitive state of tuppum meaning "tablet"

annîm: genitive state of annûm meaning "this"

lišān tuppim annîm: "the words of this tablet"

šuāti: "that"

I'm not even sure if this is one sentence or two, but if any verbs can be discerned either from the cuneiform or from the movie, it should clarify things immensely. GalacticShoe (talk) 15:28, 17 July 2026 (UTC)

Could "(ga/qa)-(ša/na) GIR" and "ka-(ab/ap)-(da2/ṭa2/ta)" be the names of characters or places from the film? Canada and copter come to mind, but I don't know the story at all. --Amble (talk) 21:48, 16 July 2026 (UTC)

It could be, I think I'll have to go through the movie again and see if it provides any context clues. GalacticShoe (talk) 15:08, 17 July 2026 (UTC)

July 16

Ordering

Does Aymar Charles d'Alleizette and others of his ilk go under the As or the Ds? Clarityfiend (talk) 01:13, 16 July 2026 (UTC)

In the end it comes down to how the sources list it, so if they list him under the Ds, then that’s what you should do, but without looking at the sources I’d say A. Cheers, 𝔰𝔥𝔞𝔡𝔢𝔰𝔱𝔞𝔯 ^{(𝔱𝔞𝔩𝔨)} (any/all) In solidarity. 02:49, 16 July 2026 (UTC)

In similar cases, we generally place such names in categories under the As (see, e.g, Category:16th-century French lawyers, Category:Members of the Chamber of Peers of the Bourbon Restoration, Category:French biophysicists). However, our practice is not entirely consistent (Category:20th-century French chess players).  ​‑‑Lambiam 05:00, 16 July 2026 (UTC)

On the other hand we tend to put their Italian equivalents under De, Del, Di or whatever. See Category:Male actors from Rome, for example. --Antiquary (talk) 11:33, 16 July 2026 (UTC)

That makes me think the determining factor is capitalization? Another pair of examples, the Dutch names with Van get files under V, but the German names that have von do not. In both the French and German cases, I think neither the d' nor the von are considered to actually be part of the surnames - when the surname alone is mentioned, are they not omitted? ~2026-39649-33 (talk) 19:10, 16 July 2026 (UTC)

We often refer to Vincent van Gogh as just Van Gogh, despite the van being lowercase if you’re typing out the full name (although the van is capitalized if you’re just typing the surname). We refer to the manifold discovered by Willem de Sitter as de Sitter space, rather than Sitter space. I can’t think of any context where the prefixes are omitted?

As an aside, this section of the Tussenvoegsel article gives a bit more insight into the matter, at least from the Dutch-language side of it. It seems you’re right about the capitalization (my initial thought was separate words determine it, like d’Alleizette being all one word whereas van Gogh is two, but your explanation makes more sense). Cheers, 𝔰𝔥𝔞𝔡𝔢𝔰𝔱𝔞𝔯 ^{(𝔱𝔞𝔩𝔨)} (any/all) In solidarity. 20:49, 16 July 2026 (UTC)

A it is then. Thanks. Clarityfiend (talk) 10:02, 17 July 2026 (UTC)

The French and German prepositions appear to be considered part of the name in d'Alembert's equation, d'Alembert's principle and the d'Alembert operator, as well as in Von Neumann algebra, Von Neumann architecture and Von Neumann universe. There are also the de Branges's theorem, de Vaucouleurs's law, von Baer's laws of embryology and the first von der Leyen Commission. It appears that there is no simple generally observed rule.  ​‑‑Lambiam 11:03, 17 July 2026 (UTC)

We don't use the capital V (per se) in any of those von Neumann articles; the V is capital when it's in the first word of the sentence. The V is capped in the article name because it's in sentence case. It looks like some of the others have an incorrect {{lowercase}} template — I'll go fix those. --Trovatore (talk) 19:32, 18 July 2026 (UTC)

July 18

Rodeeo or rodayo

THere's an ad currently on Australian TV where a character, when complimented on doing something good, says "It's not my first rodeeo, or is that rodayo?" Which is it? And why? Our aticle lists both as pronunciations, without clarification. HiLo48 (talk) 09:57, 18 July 2026 (UTC)

Well, Spanish has /roˈdeo/ [roˈð̞e.o], but English tends to have problems with a simple /e/ [e] sound to begin with. The first pronunciation seems based on English orthography, while the second is an approximation of the Spanish. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 11:25, 18 July 2026 (UTC)

My guess is that HiLo is contrasting /ˈroʊdi.oʊ/ with /roʊˈdeɪ.oʊ/. I don't think anyone says /roʊˈdiː.oʊ/. --Trovatore (talk) 21:05, 18 July 2026 (UTC)

Just happened to be passing by and it occurred to me that someone somewhere in Australia might still drive to a RO-dee-o in their battered old Holden Ro-DAY-o (which is how it was pronounced in the ads on TV). --Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 04:25, 19 July 2026 (UTC)

With the DAY in Ro-DAY-o as /dæɪ/ of course--Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 04:36, 19 July 2026 (UTC)?

I would say in American English it's typically "ROH-dee-oh", although Rodeo Drive in L.A. is more like the Spanish - which is funny considering how Angelinos butcher other Spanish names, such as San Pedro as "san PEE-droh" and Figueroa as "figure-oh-uh". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:48, 18 July 2026 (UTC)

Peeve alert -- Angelenos with the e. Not little angels. Would be Angeleño in Spanish. --Trovatore (talk) 18:59, 18 July 2026 (UTC)

But has any Pope ever made the pun? DuncanHill (talk) 21:16, 18 July 2026 (UTC)

Rodeo Drive is in Beverly Hills, they'll have you know! as is Cañon Drive, whose tilde is silent. —Antonissimo (talk) 01:10, 19 July 2026 (UTC)

I have never heard anyone pronounce San Pedro "San PEE-dro", and can only imagine it being done as some kind of hillbilly parody. Agree regarding Americans' pronunciation of rodeo; interestingly, though, in the 1950s the "Spanish-like" pronunciation was not uncommon, but nowadays it's almost nonexistant except in specific cases like Rodeo Drive. ~2026-40817-33 (talk) 05:49, 23 July 2026 (UTC)

Note the pronunciation listed in San Pedro, Los Angeles. And, as I recall, Jack Webb on Dragnet, pronounced it that way. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:29, 23 July 2026 (UTC)

You haven't seen Chinatown, I guess. —Antonissimo (talk) 02:52, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

Neil Diamond raised the question in the song "You're So Sweet, Horseflies Keep Hangin' Round Your Face" (1969), iirc. —Antonissimo (talk) 01:10, 19 July 2026 (UTC)

July 19

Translate headstone inscription from Hebrew to English

Grass Valley Pioneer Jewish Cemetery monument in Hebrew

I just took this photo which I have added to Grass Valley Pioneer Jewish Cemetery. Can a Hebrew speaker provide a translation? I appreciate it. Cullen328 (talk) 05:58, 19 July 2026 (UTC)

Even on a grave stone, I suppose it might possibly be Yiddish. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 09:57, 19 July 2026 (UTC)

The plain Hebrew letter aleph, א‎, occurs rarely in Yiddish orthography. Instead, the Yiddish alphabet has two vowel letters, אַ‎ and אָ‎, of which the first is in fact the most common letter in Yiddish texts, followed in frequency by the vowels י‎, ע‎ and ו‎. The absence of the most frequent letter and just a single occurrence of the third argue against Yiddish.  ​‑‑Lambiam 22:48, 19 July 2026 (UTC)

I cannot claim to know Hebrew, but Google's OCR gives the following characters:

OCR

בן
שלמה בן רפאל
שהלך לעולמו
ביום ה טז כסליו
בשנת תרלט לפק
תנצבה

Looking over the image I'm for the most part inclined to agree, but that first ב looks somewhat like a פ and also apparently כסליו might instead have to be כסלו?

In any case, while I won't provide an attempted translation in case of inaccuracy, I believe the name of the person buried is Solomon, and that he died on the 16th of Kislev. Based on the list of people buried at the site per Find a Grave, as well as the dates for Kislev, I believe the monument is for Solomon Rosenthal, who was born 1816 and passed on December 12, 1878 (16 Kislev, 5639). Although again, this should be taken with a grain of salt. GalacticShoe (talk) 15:52, 19 July 2026 (UTC)

That would be this one.[1] Looks like the same style of stone, with an English transcription on this side of it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:43, 19 July 2026 (UTC)

I think it is indeed likely to be the same monument. Based on the ground I presume it would be on the opposite side of the Hebrew inscription (the monstone on the ground to the right of the monument in the picture above would likely show up in the Find a Grave photo if the English inscription were on the side to the left of the Hebrew inscription.) GalacticShoe (talk) 23:49, 19 July 2026 (UTC)

There is only one monument of that size, shape and coloration in that small cemetery. Most of the graves are horizontal without upright headstones. There is one darker upright monument. So, I think it is likely that it has an English side and a Hebrew side. The cemetery is fenced off and so I was taking my photos from a distance. Thanks for all the insights. Cullen328 (talk) 07:33, 20 July 2026 (UTC)

The top line, פ נ‎, is an abbreviation of פֹּה נִקְבַּר‎ (po nikbar), meaning "Here is buried", and the bottom line, ת נ צ ב ה‎, is an abbreviation of תְּהִי נִשְׁמָתוֹ צְרוּרָה בִּצְרוֹר הַחַיִּים‎ (tehei nishmato tserurah bitsror hachayim), meaning "May his soul be bundled in the bundle of life".  ​‑‑Lambiam 21:19, 19 July 2026 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the clarification, Lambiam. Would you (or anyone else) happen to know תרלט לפק is interpreted as 5,639? My understanding is that לפק is לפ״ק, indicating the omission of the thousands digit, but I'm not sure how one obtains 639 from תרלט. GalacticShoe (talk) 00:33, 20 July 2026 (UTC)

See Hebrew numerals. The tav is 400, resh is 200, lamed is 30, tet is 9. The hundreds place uses two letters because the Hebrew alphabet ends at 400. —Amble (talk) 04:15, 20 July 2026 (UTC)

Here is a Chabad explanation of the abbreviation at the bottom. Their translation is "May his/her soul be bound up in the bond of life." Cullen328 (talk) 07:39, 20 July 2026 (UTC)

The KJV has "bound in the bundle of life". The root of the Hebrew adjective צרור‎ is the same as that of the noun, the two differing only in the niqqud. The basic sense of the root is that of tightness, which IMO is conveyed better by bundle than by bond.  ​‑‑Lambiam 02:58, 21 July 2026 (UTC)

July 20

Singaporean video translation

Can anyone translate this Singaporean Hokkien(?) video for me? It's a 2012 video from SPH Media's RazorTV that discusses the production of Ah Boys to Men. Director Jack Neo here speaks what seems to be Hokkien. I'd like the entire video transcript in English.

I will be using this AV media to cite noncontroversial statements on production, as RazorTV is made for "low showbiz" news. These claims are Casting began in March 2012 (in English at 2:30) and Neo initially wanted to include regulars like Shawn Lee and Joshua Ang, but decided otherwise to give the audience a completely new feel. Also wanted to supplement a claim on whether he wanted to cast getai singers. RFNirmala (talk) 09:05, 20 July 2026 (UTC)

July 23

Dead - just as (?) good

When in Braveheart it is getting clear that Edward Longshanks is going to win the Battle of Falkirk, he tells his men, according to strong consensus of the sources: "Bring me Wallace. Alive, if possible. Dead, just as good." However, whenever I watch the scene, I get reinforced: He doesn't say this. He only says "Dead, just good." At least a handful of people agree. And I think this is the only wording that makes sense. He wants Wallace alive, exactly for what happens at the end of the film: Sham trial, torture, public execution. So having him dead is not just as good, it's quite a bit worse. Of course, it is still much better than having this dangerous foe still roam around and kill your allies. So, if Wallace were already dead or would resist too much to be captured alive... having him dead is just good. So, what does he really say? What makes sense here? And if I am right, why is an incorrect wording given almost always? --KnightMove (talk) 07:20, 23 July 2026 (UTC)

Can you find a YouTube clip of that moment? If so, play it again, Sam. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:27, 23 July 2026 (UTC)

Here you are. --KnightMove (talk) 08:51, 23 July 2026 (UTC)

The clip you linked is subtitled, which suggests the "as" is in the script, but the late great Patrick McGoohan has elided it, which was a habit of his when he snapped out phrases like that. His auditors (both fictional and non-fictional) no doubt thought they heard the word, but as you say, it's not there. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:20, 23 July 2026 (UTC)

I'm hearing (and seeing) it as "Just 's good". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:52, 23 July 2026 (UTC)

I have to believe you - I can't hear and see that 's.

Addition: What do others think? --KnightMove (talk) 14:15, 23 July 2026 (UTC)

How many opinions do you need? I also think that there's a swallowed 'as' in there. --Wrongfilter (talk) 15:33, 23 July 2026 (UTC)

As a native British English speaker, the (admittedly reduced) "'s" is evident to me, sufficiently so that I would not notice anything unusual about McGoohan's delivery had attention not been drawn to it. However, I can readily imagine that a non-native speaker might have difficulty perceiving it. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-41275-62 (talk) 16:25, 23 July 2026 (UTC)

To me, it sounds more like a glottal stop than an s, I'm not a native speaker, though. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk)¨

I hear "jus's good", without a clear "t". --Amble (talk) 19:00, 23 July 2026 (UTC)

Yes; this is typical of native British English when spoken casually: a great deal is elided – if anybody non-British overheard me speaking with my friends in a pub, they would likely not understand half of what was said. This is probably true of many other languages, but of course everyone is inclined to speak more distinctly in more formal settings or if non-local auditors are present. (And, of course, sloppy pronunciation disappears when we communicate in writing, as we are doing here ["asweer doineer"]).

In the film scene, McGoohan/Edward is effectively speaking that last remark to himself. The subsequent events of Wallace's execution are immaterial to the remark, because they are merely opportunistic. If Wallace had been killed in the battle, Edward would have been entirely satisfied with the situation. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-41275-62 (talk) 21:05, 23 July 2026 (UTC)

I hear "just 's good", and, much more importantly, I see that sentiment on his face and body language. Life means little to him, as evidenced by his very telling remark when his aide questioned his order for his archers to fire arrows into the battle, fearing it would kill their own soldiers. "Yes ... we have reserves". The "yes" came with a whole armoury of non-vocal meaning, including "I don't understand why my orders would be questioned", and "Obviously", and "Of what concern is that to you, or anybody?". McGoohan was a tremendously skilled actor, and mere words never tell the whole story when he's in the spotlight. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:33, 23 July 2026 (UTC)

Thank you very much. As a side note, now that you mention it: I have always felt that this is even a plot hole, just for the purpose of painting Longshanks as evil beyond imagination. Literally five minutes before: "Not the archers... Arrows cost money. Use up the Irish. The dead cost nothing." But when you also hit your own troops, arrows are worth the price! --KnightMove (talk) 22:13, 23 July 2026 (UTC)

Thanks everyone, you have convinced me. So as the final aspect of my question: Would "just good" also work as well? Or wouldn't an Englishman express it like this? --KnightMove (talk) 22:13, 23 July 2026 (UTC)

"Just good" doesn't sound right. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:21, 23 July 2026 (UTC)

It doesn't sound right in this context. In "sales for baseball were good—not excellent, just good",^[2] the use is perfectly cromulent.  ​‑‑Lambiam 06:45, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

Footballer

Alas, the tired old subject of Association football v. the rest. But here in Australia, this non-sporting male who only knew Rules as a child, bristles at the word "footballer", which (to me) can only mean "soccer player". Should the term be reserved for soccer players as a disambiguation key? The thought came when examining the surname page Gleeson, and we have various people identified by their code (rugby league) or (rugby union), but Brian Gleeson (footballer), and Martin Gleeson (Australian footballer), both adherents of the Australian game. Doug butler (talk) 20:49, 23 July 2026 (UTC)

Doesn’t this sound like a question for the village pump, tea house, or help desk? I thought the reference desk wasn’t for questions about editing this Wiki. Pablothepenguin (talk) 20:55, 23 July 2026 (UTC)

In this particular instance, it might be be better if "(Australian [Rules] footballer)" were used for both, but there is little point in trying to apply it Wikiversally, only if more than one type of footballer is appearing in the same disambiguation page or would come up in a search on the name: otherwise, the mere fact of being any kind of footballer (American, Association, Australian Rules, Gaelic, Rugby Union, Rugby League and probably etc.), is probably sufficient. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-41275-62 (talk) 21:13, 23 July 2026 (UTC)

I can't speak regarding Aussie Rules or Gaelic football, although the Aussie OP seems to have the same general viewpoint as me (American): a "footballer" is a soccer player. Players of American football aren't called footballers. I would probably recommend against the use of the label "American footballer", because it would be ambiguous, but if I did see it, by default I would assume it meant an American soccer player and not a[n] [American/gridiron] football player. (And I've seen BBC use "American footballer" to mean exactly that, FWIW 😂.) ~2026-40817-33 (talk) 01:03, 25 July 2026 (UTC)

In Australia the term "footballer" can mean a player of any form of football, most commonly, a player of Australian football, simply because there are more of them than soccer players or players of rugby league or rugby union.

Scottish Gaelic

The following is an urgent request:

I am NOT asking to become completely fluent in the language. Instead, I simply desire to understand what sports commentators are saying on BBC Alba.

What is the most sensible course of action I can take? I assume that a full lesson programme would be too much.

I can’t do full lessons anyway, as I need the time for more important things, such as creating music, flying lessons, travelling, water sports, and trying to get a foothold in the music industry as a sound engineer.

I apologise for sounding like a person who brags a lot, but I just have a very direct snd literal way of articulating my thoughts.

I must decode this language soon. Hy head hurts every time I try to watch BBC Alba. I need it for certain sports events that only they appear to have.

It’s also my civic duty to my country to learn its language. I hate my school for not teaching it.

Apologies for the rambling, just had a lot of thoughts it get of my chest. I feel this is a good way to vent frustration in moderation.

Pablothepenguin (talk) 20:54, 23 July 2026 (UTC)

Immersion class? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 21:08, 23 July 2026 (UTC)

It's a while since I watched any football matches on YouTube with Gaelic-language commentary, but I watch other sports with commentary in languages I don't speak well or at all (French, Spanish, Brazilian Portuguese), and it never bothers me, because the accompanying graphics and a knowledge of the sports is sufficient – the spoken commentary is mostly just a background emotional accompaniment, and of course, participants' names usually, and specific terms sometimes, remain understandable. (One does not need to be fluent in Spanish to know what pneumatico blando/duro refer to, for example)

Having lived a while in Scotland, I appreciate how opaque Scots Gaelic is to non-speakers like us, but I am quite sure you cannot just pick up a smattering for sports-viewing purposes. Your two recourses are to (1) Take a full-on course in the language (good luck), or (2) just learn to adapt to and tolerate the situation. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-41275-62 (talk) 21:28, 23 July 2026 (UTC)

I already said I have no time for full time courses. I don’t see how they would help much anyway. I did french for a couple of years at secondary school and I remember next to nothing of the language. Pablothepenguin (talk) 21:44, 23 July 2026 (UTC)

I mean, it doesn't sound like bragging, but it sounds like a naive hope for a quick fix. It is somewhat dependent on personal aptitude and motivation, but generally it takes many months to reach a decent skill level in a new language (even if it's just one of the four skills of speaking, listening, reading and writing). 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 22:39, 23 July 2026 (UTC)

I would like to know what went wrong at my school. I did French for a couple of years but learned extremely little. Pablothepenguin (talk) 22:53, 23 July 2026 (UTC)

Some teachers, and courses, are better than others; some people are innately good, indifferent, or bad at learning other languages. It took me 5 years of French at school (I passed the 'O' Level) to gain any kind of proficiency in the language, and at the time that would have made me barely able to follow a French sports commentary (and now I've forgotten nearly all of what I learned).

It looks like your only option is my suggested (2), unless and until you can obtain computer-based technology to make simultaneous translation available to you (which seems to be just about upon us, judging by ads I've seen). Or breed your own Babelfish. ~2026-41275-62 (talk) 01:58, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

You could turn the sound off while watching the action.  ​‑‑Lambiam 06:28, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

There must be a quick way to learn the language somewhere. Pablothepenguin (talk) 09:03, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

There are no quick ways to learn any language. You could try a youtube course, though, and see how far you get. --Wrongfilter (talk) 09:07, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

I’m sure I said I DIDN’T need to become fluent. All I ask is to be able to understand the BBC Alba commentators and no one has explained how I can do that specifically. Pablothepenguin (talk) 09:17, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

I gather that you just want to learn the parts of the language which sports commentators would use? Maybe you could find a YouTube with subtitles in the language and focusing on learning those terms? Though you also have to ask yourself how badly you want to know it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:22, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

I want access to sports events only BBC Alba has. I note that every educational facility I’ve ever been to has failed me in terms of teaching my countries language and culture. Pablothepenguin (talk) 09:31, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

Understanding a language when being spoken between native speakers is quite a long way down the learning path. I can read French quite well, but comprehending what the blighters are saying to each other is quite beyond me, apart from catching a few words here and there. Alansplodge (talk) 09:36, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

Perhaps you're looking in the wrong direction to apportion such blame. C'est la vie. Bazza 7 (talk) 12:28, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

The BBC Alba commentators are not speaking some kind of stripped-down, simplified version of Scots Gaelic that a non-speaker can magically 'decode' – they are speaking a full-on language, very different from English, that just happens to be focussing on a specific topic.

Speaking from personal experience, it would be easier for an English monoglot to learn a Chinese language than to learn Gaelic (as a small boy in Hong Kong, I acquired a smattering of Cantonese, now entirely forgotten). The ONLY way to understand what they are saying is to learn the language, or employ fairly advanced real-time translation technology. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-41275-62 (talk) 16:51, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

There's a quick way to learn a language if and only if you already know some closely related language. Because most of the differences are systematic sound changes, so you just learn the sound changes, the (small) differences in grammar and the exceptions. But for Scots Gaelic, that only works if you already know Irish or Manx.

Yes and no. In that case, you are prone to mix up "false friends" or otherwise make a lot of mistakes that make you sound a bit unnatural. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 20:37, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

BTW, I wished I had the money for just one of your hobbies. PiusImpavidus (talk) 19:02, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

Try Speak Gaelic on, surprise, BBC Alba - just to see how you get on. MinorProphet (talk) 12:20, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

The way I’d go about it (speaking as someone who already knows Scottish Gaelic) is to take a couple of Duolingo lessons (or some other language learning app), just as many as you have the time for, in order to learn basic sentence structure. Then, turn on the captions for the program you’re watching and whenever you see a word you don’t know that you would like to know the meaning of (which at first will be practically every other word), look it up with a dictionary, like Wiktionary. It’ll be a slow process, but eventually you’ll be able to get the gist of what they’re saying. Learning the language this way will become a faster and faster process the more advanced your knowledge becomes, since you’ll be able to glean the meaning of a couple of words from context clues. (That’s how I started learning Russian with the Russian dub of one of my favorite TV shows.) Cheers, 𝔰𝔥𝔞𝔡𝔢𝔰𝔱𝔞𝔯 ^{(𝔱𝔞𝔩𝔨)} (any/all) In solidarity. 02:21, 25 July 2026 (UTC)

As much as you want to learn Scottish Gaelic pretty quickly, note that SG has less speakers than both Irish and Welsh. Therefore, there isn't many learning resources for learning SG, even more so outside Scotland. And anyone who can speaks those three also speaks English, not to mention not even half the population of the three countries can speak that language. Because of that (and because its easier to learn another Germanic or Romance language), its very difficult to learn SG very quickly. Just like learning any other language, don't spend all day learning, limiting to 2 hours day/8 hours week. It will always take a lot of time in order to have a basic conversation in another language, especially for non-Germanic/Romance ones. JuniperChill (talk) 09:36, 25 July 2026 (UTC)

I tried a bit of Duolingo, but I found it rather tedious and roundabout, and not too efficient, alas. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 09:51, 25 July 2026 (UTC)

July 24

Questions

1. Are there any words in Spanish where a diaeresis is used to break diphthongs?
2. Does the French word créée have ”three Es” or ”two És and one E”? In other words, when counting how many times each letter appears in a word in French, are accented letters counted separately from their unaccented counterparts, or not?
3. Are there any words in French with letter Á (not À)?
4. How are the letters in pinyin read out loud? Do pinyin letters have names like English ”a, bee, cee”? How is ”Zhongguo” read, ”Z-H-O-N-G-G-U-O”?
5. Are varieties of Arabic such as Egyptian, Iraqi, Algerian and Moroccan Arabic, their own languages since they, at least the most distant ones, are not mutually intelligible?
6. Is 23:59 on Thursday ”one to twelve on Thursday evening”, 0:00 on Friday ”twelve on Friday night” and 0:01 on Friday ”one past twelve on Friday night”?
7. Can the word ended be used an adjective like ”The team scored 50 goals in the ended season”, ”The ended year was quite normal”?
8. Is English Saint ever abbreviated as S:t, like Swedish Sankt is?
9. Can the word water be used as a countable noun when referring to a single container filled with water, like Bring three waters and two teas to this room?
10. Can the word kettle be used to refer to Finnish kattila, to which kettle is related with borrowing of the Finnish term from Germanic?

--40bus (talk) 07:42, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

6. No, 0:01 in Friday is still Thursday night.

7. No. You could say "the season just ended".

8. No, never.

9. Yes, this usage is possible in a restaurant context.

--~2026-41082-90 (talk) 08:08, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

1. See Diaeresis_(diacritic)#Spanish.

7. No, it would be like the above user said.

8. not that I've ever seen. It's typically just "St", with or without a trailing "." In older times, it was "S" plus a smaller superscript "t" that was underscored.

9. Sure. It's not really using water as a countable noun, though; it's a shorthand way of saying "glasses of water" (and "cups of tea").

←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:08, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

6. "a minute before midnight on Thursday"; "midnight on Thursday"; "a minute after midnight on Thursday" or "...Friday morning"

7. "end of season", "end of year"

8. No

9. Yes, although "glasses of water" would be more usual. Bazza 7 (talk) 09:03, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

7. "When you went onward on this ended action, I look'd upon her with a soldier's eye" (Much Ado About Nothing, Act 1, scene i), but I would say that that sense of ended is archaic now, at a pinch maybe possible in poetry. In a different sense you can talk about double-ended screws and the like. --Antiquary (talk) 10:56, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

3. A quick search on French Wikipedia and Wiktionary yields nothing but proper names. Given the existing prevalence of à as well as the prescriptive orthography assigned by the Académie Française, I find it unlikely that any words will use it anytime soon.

5. Varieties of Arabic is relevant here.

GalacticShoe (talk) 13:23, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

2. In French, e, é, è and ê are considered to be just one letter. So créée has three e's. When spelling the word out loud, one would say cé, erre, e accent aigu, e accent aigu, e. In dictionaries, words with accented letters are ordered as if the accents did not exist. Xuxl (talk) 13:30, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

10. According to Wiktionary, Finnish kattila has a large number of meanings. It seems that at least the geological sense, as in kettle hole is common to both languages. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 16:25, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

4. I wouldn't think that in Chinese, Latin letters used in Pinyin would be considered fundamentally different to Latin letters used in other contexts. Then, it seems as if every article on Latin letters in Chinese Wikipedia lists a Pinyin pronunciation by the heading 汉语拼音发音 . 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 16:34, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

4. Latin letters in Pinyin not infrequently represent different sounds in (Modern Standard) Mandarin than they do in English and similar 'Western' languages. This is because

(a) Some 'Western' sounds are not present in Mandarin;

(b) Some sounds present in Mandarin do not exist in English, etc., and consequently;

(c) Pinyin has deployed some 'unused' Latin letters to represent those non-Western sounds. See the tables under Pinyin#Syllables, which show how those letters are pronounced in MSM.

This is because, while previous 'romanization schemes' were mostly designed by Western scholars to represent the sounds of Chinese (or rather, the many Chinese languages – note the obsolete term 'dialects' used in this context is misleading) to Westerners, Pinyin was designed by Chinese linguists primarily for use by Chinese people where using Chinese characters was inconvenient, particularly for tasks involving keyboards.

As I understood the question, 40bus asked about the names of the general letters in Pinyin, and I don't really think they would have any specific. A question like "How do you spell 'Zhong Guo' in Pinyin?" would probably not get a response with different names than "How do you spell 'walkthrough' in English?" 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 10:37, 25 July 2026 (UTC)

The question about "what are the letters called" is simple to answer. They are normal letters. They don't have special names. So, "zh" is "zee aich" (or however you want to spell the letter names). I feel there is confusion about the use of pinyin. It isn't used for writing in China. It is used for non-native speakers to learn to pronounce Mandarin words. That is why the example shown in the question "zhongguo" is not actually pinyin. It should be zhong1guo2 or zhōngguó. Without the tone markers, you don't know how to pronounce the words. If you pronounce it with the wrong tones, you spout nonsense like zhong3guo1 (seed pot), zhong2guo4 (time-traveling clock), or zhong4guo3 (heavy fruit). ~2026-38520-51 (talk) 11:32, 25 July 2026 (UTC)

I don't know how common it is, but apparently Chinese speakers might use Pinyin(-ish) when they're unsure of how to write the character correctly. It might not really be proper use, though. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 12:41, 25 July 2026 (UTC)

The way character input works is you type the main radical and then branch out from there. They don't type what it sounds like in the same way as pinyin works. There are longstanding complaints that the ease of typing radical and picking strokes with autocomplete has made many young generations that can long longer write Chinese without a computer. ~2026-39968-68 (talk) 15:21, 25 July 2026 (UTC)

How are individual words written in Chinese characters spelled out in Chinese, in a context where the hearer does not know the spelling of the word beforehand? And in Pinyin? --40bus (talk) 19:54, 26 July 2026 (UTC)

There is the Bopomofo system, at least. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 21:17, 26 July 2026 (UTC)

9. Usually not, in normal writing or conversation, it would be "three bottles of water" (or whatever); however, in very specific circumstances where the exact nature of the water vessels is known – such as two waiters talking to each other – just "waters" might be used. It could be used in other situations: "The waters of the Atlantic, Pacific and Arctic oceans [or, of the Holy wells in Cerne Abbas, Glastonbury, and Mottisfont] differ in character. These three waters . . . ." {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-41275-62 (talk) 17:08, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

7. As far as I’m aware as a native English speaker, there are literally no words you can use in this way to mark the passage of time. English is not Finnish. ‘The ended year was normal,’ ‘the finished year was normal,’ ‘the started project was going well,’ are all not grammatically correct in English. You could perhaps do this in other contexts, such as ‘the cat climbed the painted building,’ which sounds perfectly normal (if a bit oddly specific, but if there happened to be only one painted building, that wouldn’t sound weird) but that’s not an adjective that marks the passage of time like many of your questions to this end seem to be about. That’s just not how English works. Cheers, 𝔰𝔥𝔞𝔡𝔢𝔰𝔱𝔞𝔯 ^{(𝔱𝔞𝔩𝔨)} (any/all) In solidarity. 02:29, 25 July 2026 (UTC)

An amendment to my statement: I say ‘not grammatically correct.’ I don’t know if that’s true, since it may be technically grammatically correct in some very specific cases; however, even then, it would probably still sound very weird and unnatural. Cheers, 𝔰𝔥𝔞𝔡𝔢𝔰𝔱𝔞𝔯 ^{(𝔱𝔞𝔩𝔨)} (any/all) In solidarity. 02:33, 25 July 2026 (UTC)

They're not "grammatically" incorrect, but I would say they are "idiomatically" incorrect. For someone saying those things, it would be a dead giveaway that they are not a native English speaker. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:24, 25 July 2026 (UTC)

That’s sort of what I meant by my amendment; it can be grammatically correct, but it’s not a thing anyone ever says. Cheers, 𝔰𝔥𝔞𝔡𝔢𝔰𝔱𝔞𝔯 ^{(𝔱𝔞𝔩𝔨)} (any/all) In solidarity. 04:13, 25 July 2026 (UTC)

10. I suspect that the pan seen in this image, referred to as a "soup kettle", might be called a kattila.

If a stew recipe were to direct one to put ingredients in a kettle and cook them over moderate heat while stirring, I might use a pan that Fins would call a kattila if that is what happens to be available, but given a choice I'd use a hollantilainen uuni (Dutch oven).  ​‑‑Lambiam 11:43, 25 July 2026 (UTC)

July 26

//Ani (language) and ||Ani (dialect) - and clicks

See Glottolog.

It's clear that there are two entities on Glottolog, Spoken L1 Language //Ani (IS0 369) hnh anii1246 and anii1247 Dialect: ||Ani a dialect of Spoken L1 Language: Kxoe kxoe1243 (ISO 369) xuu. What is not clear is which click belongs to which, because Glottolog does not explain these.

|| may be standing in for ǁ, which is Unicode: LATIN LETTER LATERAL CLICK U+01C1 (in Latin Extended-B). However while there is (for //) ⫽ DOUBLE SOLIDUS OPERATOR (U+2AFD) I can't find that this as a click (nor do I think it is the diaphoneme marker in IPA, which may reuse U+2AFD). There is also COMBINING LONG DOUBLE SOLIDUS OVERLAY U+20EB. It's possible that // represents LATIN LETTER ALVEOLAR CLICK (U+01C2).

Note that the Glottlog pages can be even more confusing as they also use italics, making || look like || and // look like //.

1. Do these distinct entities exist?
2. If so what are the clicks?
3. What is the correct IPA/Unicode way to represent them?

All the best: Rich Farmbrough 18:47, 26 July 2026 (UTC).

AFAIK // is just an ASCII substitute for ǁ, which can be slanted in handwriting or italicized in print (common for transcriptions). See Click letter. Nardog (talk) 20:12, 26 July 2026 (UTC)

Thanks! All the best: Rich Farmbrough 07:16, 27 July 2026 (UTC).

Pinging User:Kwamikagami who is knowledgeable abut these things. All the best: Rich Farmbrough 07:16, 27 July 2026 (UTC).

At all

My understanding is that "at all" is used with either plural countable things, or uncountable things: "Would you like any extra towels at all?" "I don't need any water at all".

It could be applied to a singular countable thing that has many aspects to it, or where there's a spectrum of possible attitudes: "I know a lot of people rave about it, but I didn't like The Odyssey at all".

But where it definitely doesn't apply is to a singular countable thing where it's a Yes or No, black or white, binary option. If I buy something at a shop counter, I may be asked whether I'd like a receipt. "Would you like a receipt?" would be the way to phrase that question. But what I hear more and more often is "Would you like a receipt at all?". It's not as if I might be favourably disposed to taking a receipt but not so far as a definite Yes.

Is this just an Australian thing or does it appear elsewhere? And what are the questioners on about? Is it supposed to be a politeness thing, and if so, how do these words add politeness?

Am I overthinking this, at all? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:48, 26 July 2026 (UTC)

@JackofOz: It seems to be for emphasis rather than politeness.

• Collins and Cambridge say it's used for emphasis at the end of negative statements, and questions.
• Longmans agrees.
• MW similarly equates it to "in any way or respect", "to the least extent or degree", "under any circumstances"; and helpfully dates it to the 15th century.
• Oxford, as usual, is elusive.

Bazza 7 (talk) 22:49, 26 July 2026 (UTC)

What is being emphasised in the "would you like a receipt" scenario? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 04:40, 27 July 2026 (UTC)

It is your liking that is being questioned. The speaker seeks confirmation of their growing suspicion that you are one of those who do not like to receive receipts.  ​‑‑Lambiam 07:34, 27 July 2026 (UTC)

On what possible basis could such a suspicion arise? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:58, 27 July 2026 (UTC)

This expression is common in the UK as well.

Regarding the receipt scenario: here vendors have a legal obligation to provide a receipt if wanted, but of course the purchaser is not obliged to take it. Tills used to print receipts automatically (so consequently unwanted ones were thrown away) but now the till or equivalent will only do so if prompted, so most vendors ask the question, and the answer is not predictable, hence " . . . at all?" is perhaps a signal of the vendor's uncertainty.

(Some vendors, especially volunteers in charity ('thrift') shops neither offer a receipt nor ask of one is wanted, and occasionally when I ask for one (as is my habit) they prove unable to provide one because they have operated the till incorrectly. [/rant]) {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-41275-62 (talk) 04:32, 27 July 2026 (UTC)

In the receipt scenario it's really just a filler, like asking "Would you like a receipt today?" If you have to ask a question many many times there is a tendency to elaborate it a little. All the best: Rich Farmbrough 07:20, 27 July 2026 (UTC).

It's like the German überhaupt. It's not really about quantity. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 10:39, 27 July 2026 (UTC)