Talk:The Matrix

Casting section?

Would people support the creation of a Casting section? We could move content related to casting from the Cast section into the new section, and the Cast section would then become simply a list of the characters/actors. OrdinaryOtter (talk) 02:47, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

Having both a Cast section and a Casting section is duplicative. If there's sufficient information to drive a well-formed Casting section, I would recommend looking to Jaws (film) as a good example of an endstate for something like this. DonIago (talk) 06:18, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

As a reader of Wikipedia (not an editor), having separate Cast and Casting sections (see The Empire Strikes Back for an example) does not feel duplicative to me. For me, the sections serve different purposes. If I want to quickly look up which actor played a character, or the name of a character, I consult the Cast list. If I want to know about the process of casting the film, I scroll down to the Casting section.

If I understand correctly, the average reader spends 1-2 minutes on a Wikipedia page, as they are usually looking for a quick fact or two. I could be mistaken, but my guess is that most readers use pages about films to check the cast list or the plot. To continue with the Star Wars examples, they want to know who played Chewbacca or the younger version of Han Solo. A simple, barebones cast list with one-line character descriptions is ideal for these readers, because it's easy to find and navigate. The readers who are looking for a quick fact are not necessarily interested in knowing about Mark Hamill's audition or which other actors got rejected for the role of Princess Leia. Therefore, in my humble opinion, the formatting used for The Matrix hinders the many readers who are looking to check a quick fact, by introducing large chunks of text between character descriptions. The section turns into a wall of text rather than an easy-to-navigate list.

In my experience, the vast majority of film articles use the formatting either from The Empire Strikes Back or The Matrix, which tells me that both formats have their supporters. My motivation to use the Empire formatting is based on a desire to make it as easy as possible for the majority of readers to find what they are looking for when visiting the page. I am absolutely open to the possibility that I am mistaken in my assessment of what readers are looking for.

The Jaws formatting, which I had never seen before, has both benefits and downsides in my mind. The cast list is harder to find when you first visit the page, as there is no "Cast" header in the table of contents, and the cast list is a small box rather than its own section with a large header (and it's a little farther down the page). The lack of character descriptions is also less than ideal. However, having a cast list nested within a description of the casting process is useful, as the reader can look back and forth between them.

Sorry for the essay! I just wanted to explain my thoughts on the matter. I'd be happy to hear more of your thoughts as well. OrdinaryOtter (talk) 07:50, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

We have MOS:FILMCAST to guide us, and I think it depends on the content on hand. Like you said, a standalone "Cast" section can be beneficial, and it can also be beneficial to have a wikitable embedded in a "Casting" subsection. Like for Fight Club, I think I had the latter before, but someone else changed it to be a separate cast list, which I didn't push back on. I feel like that article's "Casting" content fits the general production flow. For Apt Pupil (film) and Panic Room, I did "Cast" sections that were more prose-based with embedded wikitables because I felt like the content was not quite casting-centric but more thematic, if that makes sense. (You can see that casting detail is still in Panic Room's "Casting" subsection.) Plus, for these films, the starring actors are tighter groups (like with Panic Room, the burglars prose is all in one paragraph).

I guess for The Matrix, there is more of an extended cast list, and one difference here from the examples is that these tend to have brief character descriptions. We do see content mainly focused around the top four that could perhaps be rearranged to belong in a "Casting" subsection. I know that for a lot of franchise film articles, it has been traditional to have "fat" bullets for the starring actors followed by simpler bullets, which feels to me to be uneven. It doesn't help that we can't bold the names per MOS:BOLD. For me, it's been cleaner to have a simpler list with prose aside it or elsewhere. I'd be okay with some rearrangement here, but did you plan to keep the brief character descriptions or not?

A different kind of idea could be a three-column table with Actor, Role, Description, and the content around the four starring actors/roles could be either below it, or in a "Casting" subsection? Thinking out loud. Honestly, this film has probably been written about so much that has not been mined, and that could reframe things still. For example, assuming a major expansion, Neo (The Matrix) could have most of the related actor/role detail (especially across all the films) with the first film being relatively brief in that coverage, focusing more on the overall production and themes. List of Matrix series characters could hold more detail too (but is not in great shape). Erik (talk | contrib) 15:29, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

Thanks for offering a thoughtful reply. It's good to know about the different formatting styles out there, and I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks about the intricacies of Cast and Casting sections!

For the Matrix, yes, I was envisioning that we'd keep the character descriptions. I think the table+prose format you suggested could work as well, although if we do that, I think it would be best to bulk up the prose with more information, which I suspect is out there.

I recently did a mid-level overhaul of Wonder Woman, and was struggling with the fact that my Casting section was not just about casting, but also about character description and development, as well as the actors' performances. Maybe we should change the format of that page to more closely resemble the Apt Pupil format? OrdinaryOtter (talk) 16:13, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

Pill image

I've removed the image of the "red pill/blue pill" image. While another editor has re-added it saying its an iconic scene. We don't really bank on it as key for understanding the article. I believe its current usage was against the terms of MOS:FILMNFI. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:27, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

Hi Andrzejbanas. That image was quite dark and close to undistinquishable anyway, so brought over the image from the Red pill and blue pill page with modified caption. Hopefully this one covers the iconic and important metaphor adequately. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:04, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

Probably acceptable! Good job of finding an alternative. Andrzejbanas (talk) 14:12, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

It seems like something that should be in the themes or legacy section, it adds nothing to the plot section. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 15:14, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

It's at the paragraph in the plot in which the pills appear. Seems fine as illustrative. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:17, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

From a plot perspective, do we really need to illustrate this? I lean toward DWB's point; it seems like it would be more appropriate to include this in a section where we can also explain why it's so iconic that we felt the need to include an image. DonIago (talk) 13:51, 14 September 2026 (UTC)

Expansion to plot summary

I made some changes to the plot summary, but these were reverted by Darkwarriorblake. We disagree on the merits of these changes, shared below. Note that even after the changes, the plot summary is under the 700-word-limit as per WP:FILMPLOT.

1. Before: In an unnamed city in 1999, Thomas Anderson, a computer programmer known as "Neo" in hacking circles, investigates the mystery of the "Matrix", bringing him to the attention of hacker Trinity. She tells him that Morpheus can answer Neo's questions. At his workplace, Neo is pursued by Agents led by Agent Smith, while Morpheus, able to somehow observe their movements, guides him by phone, but Neo ultimately surrenders. After: In an unnamed city in 1999, Thomas Anderson is a computer programmer known as "Neo" in hacking circles. He investigates cryptic references to the "Matrix" appearing on his computer, bringing him to the attention of hacker named Trinity. She tells him that a fugitive named Morpheus can answer his questions. At his workplace, Neo is pursued by government agents led by Agent Smith, while. Morpheus, contacts Neo and, somehow able to observe their movements, guides him by phone, but Neo ultimately surrenders. Reason: The "mystery of the Matrix" as well as "Morpheus" have not been introduced and need to be briefly contextualized. Also the sentence structure is a bit of a mess.
2. Before: Morpheus and his crew hack into the Matrix to liberate others, exploiting its rules to gain superhuman abilities inside it. Even so, they remain outmatched by the Agents—sentient programs that protect the system—and death in the Matrix means death in the real world. Morpheus freed Neo because he believed him to be "the One", a prophesied figure destined to free humanity. After: Morpheus and his crew are able to hack into the Matrix to liberate others, exploiting its rules to gain superhuman abilities inside it. Even so, they remain outmatched by the Agents, who are actually sentient programs that protect the system and can take over the virtualized body of any human directly connected to the Matrix. Hacked-in humans can exit the Matrix by accepting a call from a telephone booth. Morpheus trains Neo inside digital simulations of The Matrix, where he develops combat skills and learns that death in the Matrix entails death in the real world. Morpheus reveals that freed Neo because he believed him to be "the One", a prophesied messianic figure destined to free humanity. Reason: The ability of the agents to take over virtualized bodies is an extremely important plot element that is needed to setup Smith's revival, mentioned later. The telephone booths are also important features that explain how they escape the Matrix. Neo's training is a significant development; there is about 10 min of runtime dedicated to this. The other editor considers this miscellaneous lore. It's a judgement call as to what should be included, but I think these are firmly within "essential details" territory.
3. Before: Realizing his potential, Neo fights Smith as an equal and kills him. However, Smith is resurrected in a new body and kills Neo. After: Realizing his potential, Neo fights Smith as an equal and manages to kill him. However, Smith is resurrected in a new body and, after a long chase, kills Neo. Reason: Small change in terms of word count, "manages to kill" implies a struggle.

Thoughts? Optimizer2006 (talk) 20:30, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

Formatting was messed up, fixed below:

Before: In an unnamed city in 1999, Thomas Anderson, a computer programmer known as "Neo" in hacking circles, investigates the mystery of the "Matrix", bringing him to the attention of hacker Trinity. She tells him that Morpheus can answer Neo's questions. At his workplace, Neo is pursued by Agents led by Agent Smith, while Morpheus, able to somehow observe their movements, guides him by phone, but Neo ultimately surrenders.

After: In an unnamed city in 1999, Thomas Anderson is a computer programmer known as "Neo" in hacking circles. He investigates cryptic references to the "Matrix" appearing on his computer, bringing him to the attention of hacker named Trinity. She tells him that a fugitive named Morpheus can answer his questions. At his workplace, Neo is pursued by government agents led by Agent Smith, while. Morpheus, contacts Neo and, somehow able to observe their movements, guides him by phone, but Neo ultimately surrenders.

Reason: The "mystery of the Matrix" as well as "Morpheus" have not been introduced and need to be briefly contextualized. Also the sentence structure is a bit of a mess.

Before: Morpheus and his crew hack into the Matrix to liberate others, exploiting its rules to gain superhuman abilities inside it. Even so, they remain outmatched by the Agents—sentient programs that protect the system—and death in the Matrix means death in the real world. Morpheus freed Neo because he believed him to be "the One", a prophesied figure destined to free humanity.

After: Morpheus and his crew are able to hack into the Matrix to liberate others, exploiting its rules to gain superhuman abilities inside it. Even so, they remain outmatched by the Agents, who are actually sentient programs that protect the system and can take over the virtualized body of any human directly connected to the Matrix. Hacked-in humans can exit the Matrix by accepting a call from a telephone booth. Morpheus trains Neo inside digital simulations of The Matrix, where he develops combat skills and learns that death in the Matrix entails death in the real world. Morpheus reveals that freed Neo because he believed him to be "the One", a prophesied messianic figure destined to free humanity.

Reason: The ability of the agents to take over virtualized bodies is an extremely important plot element that is needed to setup Smith's revival, mentioned later. The telephone booths are also important features that explain how they escape the Matrix. Neo's training is a significant development; there is about 10 min of runtime dedicated to this. The other editor considers this miscellaneous lore. It's a judgement call as to what should be included, but I think these are firmly within "essential details" territory.

Before: Realizing his potential, Neo fights Smith as an equal and kills him. However, Smith is resurrected in a new body and kills Neo.

After: Realizing his potential, Neo fights Smith as an equal and manages to kill him. However, Smith is resurrected in a new body and, after a long chase, kills Neo.

Reason: Small change in terms of word count, "manages to kill" implies a struggle. Optimizer2006 (talk) 20:33, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

It should be noted that we've already discussed this on my talk page here, where I refuted his complaints, so the user has chosen to open a second discussion here, I assume to get the answer they prefer. As the user knows, I did not revert their edit, I kept what worked, which admittedly was minimal, and removed the rest, which was excessive detail or unnecessary/incorrect like people explicitly having to find a phone booth to leave instead of a hard line, describing the Oracle as a sapient program, or discussing kung fu training when we've already stated that they exploit the rules of the Matrix to gain superhuman abilities. We only need to know that characters can enter and leave the Matrix. The user treats the 700 words as a goal rather than a limit, to the point that despite it being explained to them twice now, they're still arguing in favour of changing "kills" to "manages to kill", when we've already established that Agents are known to be superior to anyone else in the Matrix, except the One, or adding in "after a long chase" to no gain whatsoever. Taking a look at your edit history, arguing with anyone who undoes your edits is not going to be a great experience for yourself or others.Darkwarriorblake (talk) 21:08, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

Hello. First of all, the passive aggressive tone is very unnecessary. Surely, you are capable of discussing this in a civilized manner.

Yes, I've opened a second discussion here because we were unable to come to an agreement. If other folks agree with your position, I will respect that. I am speaking strictly about the plot section, so while you didn't revert my edit overall (the changes to the abstract section were left in tact), all edits to that section (except where changing one word "reveals" to "explains") were reverted.

You did not "refute" my complaints; you merely presented a different opinion, which seem (to me, anyways) motivated by a lack of open-mindedness. If the goal is strictly to maintain conciseness, here is a 3-sentence summary of the plot that technically encapsulates everything: "Hacker Neo learns that human reality is a computer simulation called the Matrix used by AI to enslave humanity. He escapes the simulation to join a rebel group led by Morpheus and Trinity, who have superhuman abilities within the Matrix. After rescuing Morpheus from Agents, sentient programs designed to protect the Matrix from threats, Neo realizes his full potential and effortlessly defeats Smith."

I think we would both agree that this is inadequate. So, which details to include are a judgement call. In this case, I believe the details I mentioned are clearly essential plot details in the film.

I am not treating the 700 words as a goal; this is a complete straw man. I merely said that after my edits, the plot summary was still within the acceptable bounds as per WP:FILMPLOT, especially for a film such as this one with a more intricate plot. I mentioned "telephone booth" because this was the means that was used in the film to enter/exit The Matrix. Neo's combat training is crucial to mention because it was never established that Neo, himself, had developed these superhuman abilities and a solid 10 minutes of the film is dedicated to Neo's training.

The Oracle is a sapient program; you informed me that this was only discovered in a later film, so I am no longer pushing for that edit as my above comment suggests. I'm also not sure why you're still arguing over the "manages to kill" bit, a 2-word change that's insignificant and not something I particularly care about. (But BTW it's not at all clear how the statement that agents are superior communicates the nature of this particular fight).

When someone undoes an edit that I feel was appropriate, I think it is reasonable to discuss that. For a matter as trivial as this, the amount of vitriol and bad-faith argumentation in your previous comment is genuinely concerning. If you are so sure that the consensus position will be yours, there would be no harm in waiting for other responses. Optimizer2006 (talk) 22:14, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

Yes, I have low patience when I have to keep explaining the same thing over and over again.

Yes, I did refute your complaints using the rules and guidance we rely on, and experience gained from working with other editors to develop high quality articles. I don't need to be open-minded to be able to piece together that the plot is kept concise WHILE being understandable, so your sarcastic 3-sentence summary clearly fails the 400-word minimum part of FILMPLOT.

This does not have a more "intricate" plot than any other science-fiction film. You keep going on about telephone booths when the climax of the film is him just using a house phone. So your addition was not just unnecessary; it wasn't even accurate. We know that characters can enter and leave the Matrix, and that's all that needs mentioning, and it's not just any phone or access point either; it has to be a specific hardline.

Neo's combat training is not "crucial"; no one is questioning why Neo, who is the One, in a world where they can use superhuman abilities, can fight. They could be brawling it out, it doesn't matter. The only important factor is that they gain superhuman abilities, which is already established, and Neo is special because he is the One.

The length of time dedicated to any scene does not warrant its inclusion; that is not how it works. He spends five minutes in the Lady in Red scene, and that doesn't need mentioning either. He spends a few minutes eating slop aboard the Nebuchadnezzar. Cypher eats a steak. These are all things that, according to your conditions, require mention.

If it's only two extra words, and you don't particularly care about it, why are you still arguing about "manages to kill"? It matters to me because effort has been made to convey the plot in as concise and coherent a way as possible, so using three words to say one is not efficient and is 100% the kind of thing that would be picked up during a Copyedit or Featured Article review. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 22:45, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

Nobody is forcing you to "explain the same thing over and over again." You've reverted my changes, and that's the current version of the page. You've made your point (in very bad faith, I would argue) and there's no reason to keep coming back here. If your position is consistent with the rules and guidelines, then surely other folks will share your viewpoint.

To comment that my 3-sentence summaries fails the minimum part of FILMPLOT totally misses the point. You've acknowledges that in some cases, a paucity of detail renders a summary non-understandable. That is precisely the argument I am making about the current state of the article.

Sure, "hardline" would be more accurate. I'm fine with that. But that's not an argument against including that detail. Neo's combat training is absolutely crucial because it not established elsewhere that Neo has developed superhuman abilities; otherwise, it just seems like he is fighting Smith out of nowhere. His learnings of the Matrix and combat training is a significant part of his character development in the film. The Lady in the Red moment is part of his training with Morpheus, so that actually furthers my point. Cypher eating a steak is literally an irrelevant detail. I have not laid out any conditions that would merit a mention of that.

I'm not still arguing about "manages to kill." You are the only one who is making an issue out of it. Though, something like that would definitely not be a deal-breaker in FA review. That's pretty disingenuous.

Your condescending remarks and strawman arguments are not appreciated. You've made your point and I've made mine. We'll see what other folks think. Optimizer2006 (talk) 23:39, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

Photos

I've uploaded some photos at Commons:Category:Film locations of The Matrix, and there are some by others, and I added one to this article for the Heart O' the city hotel, since that's quite iconic.

The current Campbell Street bridge image File:Campbell Street train bridge at intersection of Elizabeth Street.jpg feels a bit too sunny for me, compared to the use in the movie. File:Matrix locations CampbellElizabethSt tunnel Sydney Aug2026.jpg and File:Matrix locations CampbellElizabethSt tunnel Sydney Aug2026 closer.jpg are also done during the daytime (AEST), but focus more on the darkness in the tunnel.

File:Matrix locations - Sidney Metacortex (263659299).jpg nicely shows Australia Square behind the Metcentre building, so could be worth using here. Boud (talk) 13:45, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

The final scene of Neo at the Pitt St/Hunter St phone box very briefly 02:08:47 to 02:08:49 shows a bigger piece of the Sydney Harbour Bridge than in File:Matrix locations PittHunterSt phonebooth harbourbridge Sydney Aug2026.jpg, where an annotation box shows a small piece of the bridge at the bottom of the sky area. Given the renovation of the phone box, I don't think the photo is usable in this Wikipedia article. Boud (talk) 07:46, 21 September 2026 (UTC)