Talk:Saladin

Semi-protected edit request on 19 June 2026 (2)

I want this part “Saladin's mother, Amine Hatun bint Onur, was the sister of Shihab al-Din Mahmud ibn Tokush. She was a Turk.” To be completely removed as neither “Yakıt, İsmail. "The Paternity of Selahattin Eyyubî". Belleten” nor “Ekinci, Ekrem Buğra. "SALAHUDDIN AYYUBI". Prof. Dr. Ekrem Buğra Ekinci. Salahuddin's mother was Turkish; hence, it is no coincidence that his brothers bore distinctly Turkish names like Turanshah, Tughtigin, Tokush, and Buri” are reliable and push a Turkish nationalist view. Here are sources against these baseless

This source “Yakıt, İsmail. "The Paternity of Selahattin Eyyubî". Belleten.” completely disregards Saladin’s Kurdish origin and instead pushes the narrative that Saladin was Turkish and accuses western scholars of pushing “ Kurdish separatist narrative”

In this part of the source

“Views of Those Who Claim He Was Turkish

1. Let us go back a little earlier in history:

Zengi, one of the atabegs serving under the Seljuk Sultan, was a commander who gained fame by defeating the forces of the Abbasid Caliph in Baghdad. He established a state in Mesopotamia and Syria and, in 1144, captured the County of Edessa, which was then under Crusader control. When Zengi died two years later, he was succeeded by his son, Nur ad-Din Zengi.

At that time, Egypt was ruled by the Shiite Fatimid state, which was no longer as powerful as before and was under threat from the Crusaders. Shawar, the vizier of the Fatimid government, requested assistance from Nur ad-Din Zengi. In his reply to the Fatimid Caliph, Nur ad-Din reportedly stated that he would not come personally but would send Turks to help, expressing his trust in them and openly declaring that the force capable of resisting the Frankish lances lay in the arrows of the Turks.

The commander of this army, composed of Turks, was Shirkuh. Shirkuh (whose name means “mountain lion”) was Saladin’s paternal uncle, and Saladin accompanied him in the campaign. After long battles, Shawar died and Shirkuh took his place; when Shirkuh later died, Saladin succeeded him, thus beginning Ayyubid rule in Egypt.

Accordingly, the fact that Zengi wrote to Shawar saying that he would send “an army of Turks,” and that he sent Saladin under the command of Saladin’s uncle, is presented as evidence that Saladin was Turkish. Indeed, historians of Saladin’s era viewed the conquest of Egypt, Yemen, and Tripoli as an Oghuz movement. They record that of the approximately 7,000 cavalrymen who went to Egypt under the command of Asad al-Din Shirkuh, more than 6,000 were Turks.[26]

2.

According to this argument, all historical sources refer to the Ayyubid state with the Arabic expression “ad-Dawlat al-Atrak” (“the State of the Turks”). For example, Ibn Attar, one of the historians of the period, wrote that “after the Fatimids, sovereignty in Egypt passed into the hands of the Turks.” The argument asks: if the founders were not Turks, why would such a famous historian use this expression?

Furthermore, the same term was later used for the Mamluk state established after the Ayyubids. The argument maintains that the name of a state is related to its founders. It further claims that “those who portray the Ayyubids as a Kurdish state are either later historians opposed to the Turks or strongly partisan Kurdish historians, as well as some modern Western historians who seek to divide the peoples of the East.”

The source claims Ibn Attar called the Ayyubid “Dawla Al Atrak” where in reality Ibn Attar wrote no such book instead he misrepresents the work of Muḥammad ibn Ibrāhīm al-Khazrajī who wrote a book called Tarikh Dawlat Al Akrad Wal Atrak where the Ayyubid refer to the Kurds and the Mamluks to the Turks. But here İsmail Yakıt instead makes up a complete different author and and misrepresents historical facts.

Here is source “Humphreys, R. Stephen (1977). From Saladin to the Mongols: The Ayyubids of Damascus, 1193–1260. State University of New York Press”

As for 2nd writer “Dr. Ekrem Buğra Ekinci” in his source he claims

“Salahuddin Ayyubi was neither ethnically Kurdish nor Turkish. According to historian Ibn Khaldun, his great-grandfather Marwan was an Arab from the Himyar tribe. He was the chief of the Ravadieh tribe in the city of Dvin in Azerbaijan. Later, the Seljuk atabegs appointed him as governor of the Tikrit fortress in northern Iraq. The Ravadis eventually migrated to the Caucasus. Originally an Arab tribe from Yemen, they later settled in Basra and gradually assimilated with the Kurdish Hizbane community. Ibn Khallikan, Ibn Athir and Sharafkhan also affirm this. Salahuddin’s mother was Turkish; hence, it is no coincidence that his brothers bore distinctly Turkish names like Turanshah, Tughtigin, Tokush, and Buri.”

This is false from all historical perspectives. Historians both Islamic and Western have a consensus that Saladin was ethnically Kurdish. Ibn Khallikan as well as Sharafkhan Bitlisi all agreed on Saladin’s Kurdishness however this source baselessly claims other wise. Also there is no tribe called “Ravadieh”, Saladin belonged to the Rawaddiya Kurdish tribe who served as Auxiliaries for the Rawadid dynasty a Kurdified Arab tribe. Also the source doesn’t provide proof of Saladin’s mother’s ethnicity and instead claims she is a Turk without any sources. He also claims Saladin was regarded as Turkish for historical reasons which is completely against the historical facts we have of Saladin.

Sources : “Phillips, Jonathan (2019). The life and legend of the Sultan Saladin. New Haven. p. 58”

“The biographer Ibn Khallikan wrote, "Historians agree in stating that [Saladin's] father and family belonged to Duwin. ... They were Kurds and belonged to the Rawādiya [sic], which is a branch of the great tribe al-Hadāniya": Minorsky (1953), p. 124.”

“https://www.britannica.com/biography/Sal”

I want the last part of the first Paragraph in the Early life section of Saladin to be removed as both sources contrast with the historical facts we have of Saladin. ~2026-35742-88 (talk) 12:19, 19 June 2026 (UTC)

 Not done: Like I told you above, you're going to need to find reliable, secondary sources that specifically state that Saladin's mother was some other ethnicity than Turkish. Sources that say that Saladin, his father, or his father's family were Kurdish aren't relevant to what you're trying to argue, because the article already says this. If these supposedly Turkish nationalist sources are outside of the mainstream scholarly consensus, then it should be no problem for you to find sources that specifically contradict them. Day Creature (talk) 18:44, 19 June 2026 (UTC)

Actually all this new stuff should be removed as being entirely unreliable and POV-pushing. As far as I am aware, and based on the academic histories and biographies I have at hand (Phillips, Lyons & Jackson, Eddé, Ehrenkreutz) we know absolutely nothing about Saladin's mother and we have no idea if she was Turkish, Kurdish, or anything else. (Actually Ehrenkreutz says she was Kurdish, but there's no evidence for that either.) Adam Bishop (talk) 21:27, 19 June 2026 (UTC)

OK, if that's the case I won't object to it being removed. Day Creature (talk) 00:17, 20 June 2026 (UTC)

No major historian neither modern nor Saladin’s contemporary mentions his mother’s ethnicity. The 2 Turkish sources provided aren’t reliable. The first one doesn’t even mention Saladin’s mother instead just claims Saladin to be a Turk. The second one claims Saladin’s mother is a Turk and that himself was regarded as Turkish for “historical reasons” without providing any evidence or where it got it from. So I can’t provide sources to prove his mother’s Turkish or Kurdishness as there is no reliable sources therefore I believe these 2 sources should be completely removed as they as well don’t provide any evidence for their claims and are clearly not true Xelaskeral (talk) 02:08, 20 June 2026 (UTC)

I’ve also provided you with tons of sources that prove Saladin’s Kurdishness and why the 2 Turkish sources are false. Both sources claim that Saladin is regarded as Turk which we all know and is historically agreed upon among all major scholars both of his times and ours that this is not true and his identity was Kurdish. Such unreliable sources shouldn’t be used here especially ones regarding his mother which we know nothing about Xelaskeral (talk) 02:16, 20 June 2026 (UTC)

I have removed the recent additions. Thank you for bringing it to our attention. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:43, 20 June 2026 (UTC)

Hi there. In the starting of the Wikipedia article is says Saladin is Arab which is false can you fix that as well thanks ~2026-36408-01 (talk) 13:47, 24 June 2026 (UTC)

can you fix the early life section of the article where it falsely attributes Arab origins to Saladin ? Can you revert this back to the original one as this has no basis Ehdhdhdh (talk) 21:31, 17 July 2026 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 June 2026 (2)

The start of the article says Saladin is an Arab commander which is historically false and rejected by modern historians both Islamic and non Islamic. How is this not getting changed? Saladin is a Kurd here is sources

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Saladin

https://academic.oup.com/reference/62361/reference-article-abstract/554569932

https://academic.oup.com/book/33710/chapter/288307477

https://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/ayyubids/

https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/saladin-the-politics-of-the-holy-war/9780521317399

This needs to be changed quickly as it’s a pure falsification of history. Ehdhdhdh (talk) 14:34, 24 June 2026 (UTC)

Already done Danski454 (talk) 22:20, 24 June 2026 (UTC)

Hi there can you fix the early life section of Saladin where, a false Arab origin is falsely attributed to him and revert it back to the original Kurdish one. Thanks ~2026-40262-08 (talk) 20:40, 17 July 2026 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 July 2026

Can someone remove the misinformation that Saladin’s tribe was “Kurdified” this is a misinformation as Saladin’s tribe is of Kurdish origin can somebody fix this please ? ~2026-40199-44 (talk) 15:20, 17 July 2026 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want made. Day Creature (talk) 17:39, 17 July 2026 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 July 2026 (2)

Can someone remove this part in Saladin’s early life section “ He was the son of a Kurdish mercenary Najm ad-Din Ayyub.[9] The Rawadiya tribe from which his family hailed were originally of Arab descent but later became Kurdicized and were described in medieval sources as Kurdish.[18]” this part has no basis but rather a theory pushed by Arab nationalists to discredit Kurds and their history.

All historical sources such as

Morton, Nicholas (2020). The Crusader States and Their Neighbours: A Military History, 1099–1187. Oxford University Press. p. 163

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Saladin

The biographer Ibn Khallikan wrote, "Historians agree in stating that [Saladin's] father and family belonged to Duwin. ... They were Kurds and belonged to the Rawādiya [sic], which is a branch of the great tribe al-Hadāniya": Minorsky (1953), p. 124

The medieval historian Ibn Athir relates a passage from another commander: "...both you and Saladin are Kurds and you will not let power pass into the hands of the Turks." Minorsky (1957):

Ibn Iyãs, Bada'i' al-Zuhür fi Waga'i' al-Duhur, ed. Muhammad Mustafa, vol. 1-A, p. 242: "When Şalah al-Din Yüsuf became the sole ruler of Egypt and the Levant, he disbanded the motley armies that were in Egypt which consisted of Slavs, Maşmuda Berbers, Armenians, the Shanatira of the Arabs, and a faction of Zanj slaves. He dissolved all these factions entirely and established in Egypt new military forces consisting specifically of Kurds. Their number reached twelve thousand heavy-mounted Kurdish warriors (shuğ an al- Akrad)."

All well established institutions including Britannica, Oxford and Cambridge agree that Saladin was a Kurd. Such theory claiming that he was of a distant Arab descent shouldn’t be included here as this pushes an a false narrative and falsify history. Saladin belonged to the Rawadiya family which served both the Rawwadid and the Shaddadid Kurdish states but was its own branch of the Hadhabni Kurds as stated by Minorsky itself

Can somebody fix and remove such absurd claim please ? ~2026-40148-86 (talk) 18:45, 17 July 2026 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before posting an edit request. Relevant recent discussion, including a completed RfC, may be found at Talk:Ayyubid dynasty. Day Creature (talk) 20:36, 17 July 2026 (UTC)

I have giving all the sources needed. What more source do you want ? Only one poor source from Iranica mentions such theory. This should be removed as it has no basis ~2026-40262-08 (talk) 20:38, 17 July 2026 (UTC)

You need to establish a consensus that the material in question should be removed, because there was a recent RfC at Talk:Ayyubid dynasty that directly addressed this question and found that the Arab origins of the Rawwadid dynasty should be mentioned in that article. I note that the sources you've provided don't directly speak to the issue of whether the Rawadids were of Arab origin or not. Day Creature (talk) 20:46, 17 July 2026 (UTC)

The sources I have provided especially Iranica make a clear difference between the Kurdish Rawadiya and the Kurdified Arab Rawadid which Saladin’s ancestors served

here are sources The confusion probably arises from the intermarriage of the Arab Rawwād family with the Kurdish tribe of Rawād; an ode (qaṣida) on the Rawwadid ruler Vahsudān b. Mamlān notes his mixed Arab and Iranian (Ar. ʿajam; q.v.) descent (Kasravi, p. 155). The Rawwadids are described by Ebn Ḵallekān (d. 681/1282) as a branch of the Haḏbāni Kurds, and Ebn al-Aṯir (XI, p. 341) says the Rawwadids were “the most noble of the Kurds.” Although the Haḏbāni Kurds are generally associated with the region of Lake Urmiya, Ebn Ḵallekān states that the village of Ajdanaqān near Dvin in Armenia (see ARMENIA AND IRAN vi), from where the forefathers of the Ayyubids (12th-13th centuries) came, was populated by the Kurdish Rawād (Ebn Ḵallekān, V, pp. 494-95; cf. Minorsky, pp. 124-25, 128-29).

Saladin’s father also had Shadadid ancestry however some biased editors here only focus on his Kurdishness Rawadiya origin and try to connect him to the Rawadid Kurds of Arab origins

here are sources

The family were closely connected to the Kurdish Shaddadid dynasty, and when the last Shaddadid was deposed in Dvin in 1130, Shadhi moved the family first to Baghdad and then to Tikrit, where he was appointed governor by the regional administrator Bihruz. Ayyub succeeded his father as governor of Tikrit when Shadhi died soon after

Humphreys, Stephen (1977), From Saladin to the Mongols: The Ayyubids of Damascus, 1193–1260 Ehdhdhdh (talk) 21:20, 17 July 2026 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 July 2026 (3)

Can someone remove this part in Saladin’s early life section “ He was the son of a Kurdish mercenary Najm ad-Din Ayyub.[9] The Rawadiya tribe from which his family hailed were originally of Arab descent but later became Kurdicized and were described in medieval sources as Kurdish.[18]” this part has no basis but rather a theory pushed by Arab nationalists to discredit Kurds and their history.

All historical sources such as

Morton, Nicholas (2020). The Crusader States and Their Neighbours: A Military History, 1099–1187. Oxford University Press. p. 163

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Saladin

The biographer Ibn Khallikan wrote, "Historians agree in stating that [Saladin's] father and family belonged to Duwin. ... They were Kurds and belonged to the Rawādiya [sic], which is a branch of the great tribe al-Hadāniya": Minorsky (1953), p. 124

The medieval historian Ibn Athir relates a passage from another commander: "...both you and Saladin are Kurds and you will not let power pass into the hands of the Turks." Minorsky (1957):

Ibn Iyãs, Bada'i' al-Zuhür fi Waga'i' al-Duhur, ed. Muhammad Mustafa, vol. 1-A, p. 242: "When Şalah al-Din Yüsuf became the sole ruler of Egypt and the Levant, he disbanded the motley armies that were in Egypt which consisted of Slavs, Maşmuda Berbers, Armenians, the Shanatira of the Arabs, and a faction of Zanj slaves. He dissolved all these factions entirely and established in Egypt new military forces consisting specifically of Kurds. Their number reached twelve thousand heavy-mounted Kurdish warriors (shuğ an al- Akrad)."

All well established institutions including Britannica, Oxford and Cambridge agree that Saladin was a Kurd. Such theory claiming that he was of a distant Arab descent shouldn’t be included here as this pushes an a false narrative and falsify history. Saladin belonged to the Rawadiya family which served both the Rawwadid and the Shaddadid Kurdish states but was its own branch of the Hadhabni Kurds as stated by Minorsky itself

Can somebody fix and remove such absurd claim please ? Ehdhdhdh (talk) 20:09, 17 July 2026 (UTC)

 Not done: Duplicate edit request, see above. Day Creature (talk) 20:37, 17 July 2026 (UTC)

I have provided evidence. You haven’t even looked the links yet you agree to keep the absurd claims which are against established facts Ehdhdhdh (talk) 03:28, 18 July 2026 (UTC)

Edit Request: Modern Historiography on Rawadiya Origins

This LLM-generated text has been collapsed and should be excluded from assessments of consensus.

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Change: Expand the "Early life" section to include modern academic perspectives (such as Hugh Kennedy) alongside the existing traditional scholarship (Vladimir Minorsky) regarding the origins of the Rawadiya tribe, ensuring compliance with NPOV.

Please replace this current sentence: The Rawadiya tribe from which his family hailed were originally of Arab descent but later became Kurdicized and were described in medieval sources as Kurdish.

With this fully cited text: While traditional scholarship suggests the Rawadiya tribe from which his family hailed were originally of Arab descent but later became Kurdicized, modern historians increasingly challenge this narrative. Scholars such as Hugh Kennedy argue that medieval chroniclers frequently conflated the indigenous Kurdish Rawadiya clan with the similarly named Arab Banu Rawwad, or deliberately fabricated Arab genealogies to provide political prestige to non-Arab dynasties, noting that they were consistently described in medieval sources as Kurdish.

Reason: This edit was originally reverted solely because I am a non-EC user, not due to content disputes. The current text presents a disputed historical theory as absolute fact. Adding the modern historiographical counter-narrative (properly cited with `<ref>`) balances the paragraph and reflects current academic consensus without deleting the original source, complying with NPOV.

Not done: your request appears to have been generated by a large language model. Day Creature (talk) 15:11, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

Here I am trying to improve Wikipedia and genuine effort is met with aggravating dismissal.

Let me be blunt: The issue is content-based: Hugh Kennedy points out in The Prophet and the Age of the Caliphates (3rd ed., pp. 258–259) that the connection between the Arab Banu Rawwad and the Kurdish Rawwadis/Hadhabani is uncertain and likely conflated. The current article text presents the assimilation narrative as settled fact, which contradicts Kennedy. Can an EC editor review that passage to qualify the claim under NPOV?" ~2026-46561-83 (talk) 17:36, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

If you want to make a genuine effort to improve Wikipedia, please don't rely on AI to write your posts for you. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that's written by human beings. Day Creature (talk) 20:44, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

Is it difficult for you to actually engage with the source provided?

As per Wikipedia's own rules:

""Editors are permitted to use LLMs to suggest corrections to their own writing, and to incorporate them after human review. This is limited to spelling, punctuation, capitalisation, grammar, and other simple mistakes. Editors must ensure that any text copyedited in this manner is still supported by the sources cited.""

I have stated clearly that I have severe dyslexia before, and that I intend to continue to use LLMs to correct my grammar and spelling.

Now onto the real matter that you have conveniently ignored by hiding behind a template bot accusation, as if such low effort makes wikipedia a better place:

The issue is purely historiographical:

Hugh Kennedy (The Prophet and the Age of the Caliphates, 3rd ed., p. 258) explicitly writes regarding the Rawwadids:

""In the early 'Abbasid period, an Azdi Arab family called the Banu Rawwad is found among the colonists who settled the towns of Azarbayjan, but it is not clear that there was any connection between them and the later Kurdish dynasty of the same name. It has been plausibly suggested that the Rawwadids were in fact the leading family of the Hadhbani Kurds and that they are to be identified with the Rawwadis after whom was named the town of Rawanduz...""

Once again, the central point stands:The current article text presents the assimilation narrative as settled fact, which contradicts Kennedy.

So I will ask again:

Can an EC editor review that passage to qualify the claim under NPOV?

Excuse the missspellings, I couldn't give a shit this time to fix it, since clearly that flagged some bot. Artash47 (talk) 21:22, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

References

Edit Request: misrepresentation of the sources

In the Early life section, please revise this sentence:

"The Rawadiya tribe from which his family hailed were originally of Arab descent but later became Kurdicized."

This statement is not supported by the sources it relies on.

One of the sources; Minorsky(Studies in Caucasian History, pp. 123, 128–130) does not say the Rawadiya were of Arab descent. He writes that the Rawadis were Kurds, that some sections of the Hadhbanis came under the rule of the originally Arab Rawwad family, and that it is “tempting to think” or that there was “some particular connection” / the name may have been adopted. He never states that the Ayyubid Rawadiya themselves were Arab in origin or genealogical descendants of Rawwād al-Azdī.

The other source; Encyclopaedia Iranica, Rawwadids distinguishes the original Arab Rawwād family from the later Kurdicized Rawwadid rulers and from the Kurdish Rawād tribe. It notes intermarriage and uncertainty, and records that the village of Ajdanaqān near Dvin (origin of the Ayyubid family) was populated by the Kurdish Rawād. It does not claim the Rawadiya clan of the Ayyubids were of Arab descent.

This is a Better wording:

The Rawadiya tribe from which his family hailed was a branch of the Hadhbani Kurds. The origin of the tribal name is debated; Minorsky suggested that Rawadi Kurds were Hadhabani Kurds or local Kurds who adopted the name of the Rawwadid dynasty, after they served as auxiliary units for the dynasty.

This would more accurately reflect the cited sources. KurdishFalconeer (talk) 00:42, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

Edit request 14 September 2026

Description of suggested change:

Diff: Expand Recognition and Legacy: Western World. This article does not currently do justice to the fact that Saladin became one of the major fictious characters of European medieval literature. The arc of how he began as a literary villain in the West - in chronicles such as that of Geoffroy de Breuil - is explained in Patrick DeBrosse, "First Draft of a Saladin Legend" in the journal Viator. The story of how he became a hero of European literature is explained most fully in Jonathan Phillips's article "The changing reputation of Saladin in the Latin West, c. 1170 to c. 1220" in the journal Crusades. The subsequent literary depictions are surveyed in Margaret Jubb's book, The Legend of Saladin in Western Literature and Historiography. John Tolan also has important work on this subject. I would like to add these citations, but since the article is restricted, can someone with editorial permissions do so?

~2026-49647-06 (talk) 21:17, 14 September 2026 (UTC)

Kurdish identity

At the start of the article the Saladin’s Kurdish identity has been removed and changed to “Salah ad-Din Yusuf ibn Ayyub[a] (c. 1137 – 4 March 1193), commonly known as Saladin,[b] was a Muslim commander and political leader.” The Muslim there used to be Kurdish can someone restore it to Kurdish or Muslim Kurdish

as this is clear attempt by people hostile to Kurds to downplay Kurdish history Ehdhdhdh (talk) 01:23, 27 September 2026 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 September 2026

At the start of the article it used to say that Saladin was a Kurdish commander and political leader however now this has been changed to Muslim. “Salah ad-Din Yusuf ibn Ayyub[a] (c. 1137 – 4 March 1193), commonly known as Saladin,[b] was a Muslim commander and political leader.”

This should be chnaged back to its origanl form which is “Saladin was a Kurdish commander and political leader” and we have to add the Muslim on, it should say Saladin was a Kurdish Muslim. The hiding of his Kurdish identiy is a clear attempt to downplay Kurdish history by people hostile to Kurds ~2026-51981-59 (talk) 02:00, 27 September 2026 (UTC)

 Not done per MOS:ETHNICITY: Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability.

I'm not seeing evidence that Saladin being Kurdish was what made him notable, while Sunni Islam was central to his career and identity. Sutyarashi (talk) 05:51, 27 September 2026 (UTC)

Saladin’s entire army revolved around Kurds

Most of his generals were Kurds

the Ayyubid state was called Dawla Al Akrad ie State of the Kurds

in medieval sources

On the Prophet’s page, his Arabness is mentioned but somehow Saladin’s get ignored?

When he took over Egypt he replaced the army with a Kurdish one.

Kurdish is very central to his identity and career

just writing Muslim is misleading

For example what does a Muslim from Bangladesh has to do with Saladin or the Ayyubid state?

Anyone can be a Muslim

so his Kurdishness should be put back there

first they added his false Arab origins

then they removed Kurdish from the start of the article

ITS VERY CLEAR SOMEONE HERE IS PUSHING AN AGENDA AGAINST THE KURDS

The Ayyubid State was Kurdish and its glory are for the Muslim Kurds

so YES HIS KURDISHNESS IS VERY IMPORTANT TO BE THERE Ehdhdhdh (talk) 12:34, 27 September 2026 (UTC)

September 2026

@Huyrutan online edition of Britannica has disputed reliability, see its entry at WP:RSP. Minorsky was cited twice (one of which gave no page), it's better to merge them (especially given the excess citation tag). Per WP:NOPIPE we don't make links unnecessarily long (e.g [[Sunni Muslim]] and not [[Sunni Islam|Sunni Muslim]]). Per MOS:ETHNICITY we don't mention ethnicity in the first line unless it is what makes subject notable. See my reply to TA above. Sutyarashi (talk) 11:15, 27 September 2026 (UTC)

Changes to the lead of a long-standing article, especially regarding ethnic description, should be discussed here before they're made, rather than after they're challenged. See WP:BRD and WP:CONSENSUS. I won't revert your edits for now so we can sort this out here.

Minorsky and the piping look fine to me, merge the citations and use Sunni Muslim.

On Britannica, disputed reliability at WP:RSP doesn't mean it's unusable, but it isn't needed anyway. His Kurdish origin is well established in academic literature, so the citation can be swapped without changing the text.

I'm fine with mentioning his role as founder of the Ayyubid dynasty and first sultan of Egypt and Syria. I don't think that requires removing ‘Kurdish’ though.

On MOS:ETHNICITY, ethnicity is fine in the lead when it is relevant to the subject's notability, and I think that's the case here. Bajalan & Karimi (2017, pp. 19–21) describe historical references to the Ayyubids as a ‘dynasty of the Kurds’ and note that al-Maqrizi referred to them as the ‘Ayyubid Kurds’ (al-Akrād al-Ayyūbiyya). They also discuss references to the ‘Kurdish rulers of Egypt’ (pp. 19–21, 31–32). I think his Kurdish background is relevant enough to mention in the lead.

I propose using "the Kurdish founder of the Ayyubid dynasty" for the first sentence. If there's a policy or source that supports leaving it out, please point me to it. If we can't agree, we can ask for other editors' input. Huyrutan (talk) 21:35, 28 September 2026 (UTC)

MOS allows mention in second line if it's of defining importance. I won't press on it further but note that undiscussed changes were made to long-standing lede by Acratopotes. I propose restoring original version. Sutyarashi (talk) 23:08, 28 September 2026 (UTC)

Thanks, I see you've already restored the original version. That's fine with me, and I appreciate you working it out here. Huyrutan (talk) 01:21, 2 October 2026 (UTC)