Talk:Edward German

Personal Life

Would someone who has a copy of A Musical Peacemaker or someone otherwise well-read on this stuff be able to write a personal life section? I have a few brief details that I know of, but they're all somewhat unrelated and without more detail don't flow together at all. Among these, Edward German was very good friends with Elgar who liked his music, he was always a bachelor (as far as anyone knows, anyway), and he really, really liked following cricket. I get the impression, especially from reading the mini documentary on Fallen Fairies over at the Gilbert & Sullivan archive (as well as the title of the Brian Rees book) that he really liked to avoid conflicts and try and resolve them, which probably is indicative of his personality. If someone with the book could write in more detail about his personality, hobbies, and relationhips and put it into the personal life section, it would be fantastic. --Anivron 17:58, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

We have this gentleman's old hat, so it is known that he favoured Herbert Johnson, Hatters, who were then based at 38 New Bond St. The style is BT.11. His sister was known to accompany him on tours and frequently employed the services of a lady's travelling companion. Sir Edward presented said travelling companion with the hat at the end of her engagement, in recognition of services rendered. Thisisnotapipe | Message 22:01, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Blue linking the years

Why are you blue linking the years in the list of works? I don't think that clicking on the link gives any really useful info, unless you are making the links to something like "musical events/operas written in 1895|1895"? Or did you have something else in mind? We have not been doing this in the G&S articles generally. Also, most dates are linked in the list, but some are not. And one or two are linked in the narrative section, but most are not. -- Ssilvers 22:03, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Detailed Article on German

Check out this article: http://www.naxos.com/mainsite/blurbs_reviews.asp?catNum=223419&filetype=About%20this%20Recording&language=English -- Ssilvers 15:02, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Looks a superb source, it does! Adam Cuerden ^talk 15:39, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Good source. I had looked at Naxos album liners for German stuff before, but I had no idea they weren't identical. This one is different than one of the other ones I read. Thanks. I bet I can find most of the stuff they wrote in "A Musical Peacemaker" when my copy comes in, and I did an ILL request for "An Intimate Biography". JSTOR has lots of great resources on German, but the university library, though subscribing to JSTOR, seems to not have that particular JSTOR database. Could someone else with better access dig around some more in JSTOR? --Anivron 22:31, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Composer project review

I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This is a really nice article, approaching A. I have a few quibbles with it; they are in my review on the comments page. Questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page. Magic♪piano 16:01, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Rosina Brandram photo

There is a photo of Brandram as Queen Elizabeth on this page, but the caption incorrectly identifies it from "Tom Jones" instead of "Merrie England." But when I go to correct it, it's fine. What gives? Slfarrell (talk) 19:30, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I fixed it. The image page is labeled correctly, it was just the caption in *this* article that was mis-labeled, so I edited the caption. Should be OK now everywhere. All the best, -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:49, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Hard G, soft G

Re this edit: Basically, I think there's a confusion here. The hard G may have applied to his Welsh birth given name German – see here. But when he decided to make German his surname, there's no way he could ever have expected anyone in England, where he was studying, to say it with a hard G. He may have insisted for a while that people said it hard, but would have given it up as a lost cause before too long, and he must have accepted quite early that his name was inevitably to be pronounced Jerman. In English, we have a way of noting a hard G at the start of a word, viz. gh, e.g. Ghana, ghastly, ghat, ghee, gherkin, ghetto, ghost, ghoul. I might be wrong, but I don't think there are any words spelt Ge- that are pronounced hard, apart from 'gear' (where the vowel is actually the diphthong 'ea'), and foreign names like 'Geiger'. He chose NOT to spell his name Gherman, and in making that choice he effectively fixed its pronunciation as a soft G, exactly as everyone has pronounced it forever.

Another thing: No disrespect intended, but if we were going to be embarking on a campaign to re-educate the entire music-loving world about how to say Sir Edward German's name, I think we would need significantly more to go on than the word of a Lydia Crowe who is somehow associated with Iowa Public Radio. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 07:10, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't agree with the general statement about pronunciation in English above. I can immediately think of get and gelding. But I agree that this edit's reference source is unconvincing at best. I've reverted. -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:44, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

My vote for "soft G" German in this case (for what it is worth). Never heard that anyone ever wanted to pronounce it any other way. I have sometimes wondered how "our" G. coped with the anti-German hysteria of the First World War period, when even German Shepherd dogs (not to mention the Royal Family) underwent a change of name - perhaps the idea of giving G's name an eccentric pronunciation stems from that period? --Soundofmusicals (talk) 23:23, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Maybe, but why is this issue news to just about everybody? It would be like suddenly discovering that Parry's name was actually Perry and we've all got it wrong forever. I found exactly one other online mention of the hard-G pronunciation, and it was hidden in a CD review by an anonymous person on Amazon, and qualified with "I think". This supposedly correct pronunciation is so unnatural and counter-intuitive that it would surely have merited a mention in many reference works, were it actually true. And not just a mention, but an explanation of why it was pronounced that way. But no such references exist, to my knowledge. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 23:56, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

The silvery one has already changed the text - I think we all agree with you! --Soundofmusicals (talk) 00:59, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

In that case, I agree with myself. Done. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 01:16, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Resolved

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Edward German/CommentsTalk:Edward German/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

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==Composers Project Assessment of Edward German: 2009-02-11== This is an assessment of article Edward German by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano. If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down. Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status. ===Origins/family background/studies=== Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described? ok ===Early career=== Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? ok ===Mature career=== Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? ok ===List(s) of works=== Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article. ok; should be split into separate article ===Critical appreciation=== Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)? ok ===Illustrations and sound clips=== Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.) one image (needs more); no sound; if recordings by him are available, they should be listed. ===References, sources and bibliography=== Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references? Article has references; mostly cited. ===Structure and compliance with WP:MOS=== Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.) Lead is short. ===Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review=== Article requires more inline citations (WP:CITE) Article lead needs work (WP:LEAD) ===Summary=== This is a fine article; it gives a good picture of the man, his life, and his works. Critical, popular, and historic commentary are given. I will quibble about a few things. The works list should be separated into another article, due to its length. The article could use a few more images (pictures of Gilbert and George V might be a good start). It is mentioned that he made recordings; if any of these are currently available, a discography should be given. Failing (or in addition to) that, the original label(s) he recorded for should be identified. Article is arguably not far from an A rating. Magic♪piano 15:59, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Last edited at 15:59, 11 February 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 14:10, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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"Still performed"

@Tim riley Where? Specifically within the "main text". The quote from Grove (2008): ""Merrie England and, to a lesser extent, Tom Jones retained a special place in the affections of native audiences for more than half a century and are still occasionally performed" does not back the claim: "light operas ... still performed". This is 2025. To make a broad statement that German's: "... light operas, especially Merrie England, are still performed" needs on-going RS and coverage. One recording of Tom Jones in 2009 (mentioned twice) and one performance of Merrie England in 2006 and a school adaptation in 2009 does not equal: "Some of his light operas, especially Merrie England, are still performed" in the lead. Thanks. Maineartists (talk) 19:17, 12 July 2025 (UTC)

You are entitled to your interpretation. I stand by mine. Any other editors disposed to comment? Tim riley talk 19:27, 12 July 2025 (UTC)

It’s fine as it is, I think. - SchroCat (talk) 20:07, 12 July 2025 (UTC)

This site lists some of the productions of German's operas that they have counted over the decades:

• Merrie England: https://www.stdavidsplayers.co.uk/archive/merrie-england.html

6 in 2012. Reason: 150 anniversary of German's birth. Those are the last listed.

• Tom Jones: https://www.stdavidsplayers.co.uk/archive/tom-jones.html

... 1998. 2000. 2007. That's it.

• A Princess of Kensington: https://www.stdavidsplayers.co.uk/archive/a-princess-of-kensington.html

Last production in 1959.

• The Emerald Island: https://www.stdavidsplayers.co.uk/archive/the-emerald-isle-further-reading.html

... 1999, 2001, 2008.

A few recent American productions: 2015 at Free Range Opera in California, 2003 at Lyric Theatre of San Jose, and 2019 at The Gilbert & Sullivan Opera Company of Chicago and 2025 by Ardensingers (Pennsylvania) -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:22, 13 July 2025 (UTC)

The website peters out around 2012, but I did some quick googling and see this 2020 professional production of "Merrie England": https://odysseyopera.org/merrie-england/ and another professional production in 2012: https://finboroughtheatre.co.uk/production/merrie-england/

The 2012 (Finborough Theatre, London) is already listed above (operas that they have counted over the decades). Also, production was: "The first professional London production for 52 years." 2020 was cancelled; yet scheduled (not listed).

German's Fallen Fairies was produced at Highgate in 2014 by Alan Borthwick. See W.S. Gilbert Society Journal, vol. 6, part 1, issue 35, Autumn 2014. -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:05, 13 July 2025 (UTC)

This 2024 website says that Merrie England's "...masterful blend of history, humour, and music makes it a beloved choice for both amateur and professional productions." https://www.erewashmusicalsociety.co.uk/merrie-england/

A musical society "blog" about the opera & its history. Nothing about continuation of productions. Doesn't back the claim that German's light operas are "still performed today".

Would you be more comfortable if we changed it to "...and have continued to be performed occasionally into the 21st century"? -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:34, 12 July 2025 (UTC)

To have something in the lead it must adhere to MOS:LEAD, as we all know; and currently the article does not back the claim: "Some of his light operas, especially Merrie England, are still performed." There was a resurgence due to German's 150th birth anniversary in 2012; nothing more. The dates in the article are ripe with turn-of-the-20th-century coverage; but die out with sparse and sporadic pop-ups citing varied works. Even the "Festival" has only had 2 events. 4 dates in the 21st century within the article does not warrant the lead statement.

"German lived long enough to witness the beginning of a decline in the popularity of his orchestral works. A note found after his death bears this poignant message: "I die a disappointed man because my serious orchestral works have not been recognised". It is important to note article content: "However, his best-known orchestral pieces continued to see occasional performances, and his light operas Merrie England and Tom Jones were kept alive by the productions of amateur companies." (unsourced) This covers the first half of the 20th century.

The Grove quote was correct: "Merrie England and, to a lesser extent, Tom Jones retained a special place in the affections of native audiences for more than half a century and are still occasionally performed". Just those 2 operas are "still occasionally performed". "Some of his light operas" is misleading and exaggerated. NPOV for the lead should state that though German's music is now forgotten and rarely performed today, his light operas Tom Jones and Merrie England are still occasionally performed." Maineartists (talk) 04:31, 13 July 2025 (UTC)

I suggest we politely note Mainartists' views and leave matters as they are unless s/he can assemble a consensus here to the contrary. Tim riley talk 16:08, 13 July 2025 (UTC)

Agreed. -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:22, 13 July 2025 (UTC)

Tim riley Dismissive comments such as: "interpretations" and "views" in relation to presenting reliable sources as facts by an editor at WP is dismissive and non-productive. Regardless, at least Ssilvers mediates and steps forward to provide further coverage for debate. Though, sources are Wordpress and blogs; they do present a slight continuation for selected works. When a low-trafficked article such as this, due to clique-interest is overseen by those who show a unique and distinct attraction for this type of knowledge, there tends to be bias. This article overall is slightly undue toward the positivity and unbalanced NVOP when it comes to summary continued coverage in the lead. Even the recently discovered blog states: "The Emerald Isle is rarely performed." But I understand how editing can become shaded when dazzled by self-interest. I too at times suffer from it. I dare say there will not be any other voice to join this discussion to take this debate into consideration with neutrality and equality and summarize German's performance record today from both POV. Those who visit are fans of the most devoted degree. Thanks for your civil discussion, Ssilvers. My only suggestion would be to expand the performance content with notable RS to better support the existing lead line (wording as such requires constant upkeep). Present-day performance content has not been added in over 2 decades. Cheers, Maineartists (talk) 15:26, 14 July 2025 (UTC)

Gosh! You do like a plenitude of words, don't you! I remain of the view that if you can command a consensus for changing the current text, so be it! Tim riley talk 15:35, 14 July 2025 (UTC)

a2d.Maineartists (talk) 21:51, 14 July 2025 (UTC)

Look, Maineartists. You have not suggested better language. The only suggestion you made was that we say that German's music is "forgotten", which is objectively false and misleading, as you can see that there have been multiple productions of his century-old works in recent decades and also recent recordings of his works. Any statement to the contrary is a lie. You are repeatedly attacking other editors and accusing them of "self-interest" who do not, to my knowledge, have any financial or family relationship with Edward German or his descendants and who have not authored any of the sources used in the article. So I cannot imagine what kind of "self-interest" you are accusing them of. Both Tim riley and SchroCat are extremely productive editors responsible for dozens of WP:Featured articles. Try to be WP:CIVIL to other editors who are here absolutely selflessly contributing to free knowledge movement. Your behavior here is, frankly, despicable. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:19, 14 July 2025 (UTC)