Talk:Blond

"Genetics of Blond Hair" Section is Now Outdated and Lacks Relevant Information

Please see my above post for an explanation of the following edits.

Please change:

Geneticist David Reich said that the hundreds of millions of copies of this SNP, the classic European blond hair mutation, entered continental Europe by way of a massive population migration from the Eurasian steppe, by a people who had substantial Ancient North Eurasian ancestry.

Ancient North Eurasian admixture is present in mesolithic fossils from Northern Europe, and is linked to the prediction of blond hair in stone-age Scandinavians by ancient DNA analysis.

Gavin Evans analyzed several years of research on the origin of European blond hair, and concluded that the widespread presence of blond hair in Europe is largely due to the territorial expansions of the "all-conquering" Western Steppe Herders; who carried the genes for blond hair.

A review article published in 2020 analyzes fossil data from a wide variety of published sources. The authors affirm the previous statements, noting that Ancient North Eurasian-derived populations carried the derived blond hair allele to Europe, and that the "massive spread" of Yamnaya steppe pastoralists likely caused the "rapid selective sweep in European populations toward light skin and hair."

to this:

The precise genetic origin and spread of blond hair into its present-day distribution is a topic of debate amongst population geneticists.

Geneticist David Reich said that the hundreds of millions of copies of this SNP, the classic European blond hair mutation, entered continental Europe by way of a massive population migration from the Eurasian steppe, by a people who had substantial Ancient North Eurasian ancestry. Ancient North Eurasian admixture is present in mesolithic fossils from Northern Europe, and is linked to the prediction of blond hair in stone-age Scandinavians by ancient DNA analysis. Gavin Evans analyzed several years of research on the origin of European blond hair, and concluded that the widespread presence of blond hair in Europe is largely due to the territorial expansions of the "all-conquering" Western Steppe Herders; who carried the genes for blond hair. A review article published in 2020 analyzes fossil data from a wide variety of published sources. The authors affirm the previous statements, noting that Ancient North Eurasian-derived populations carried the derived blond hair allele to Europe, and that the "massive spread" of Yamnaya steppe pastoralists likely caused the "rapid selective sweep in European populations toward light skin and hair."

In contrast, geneticist Isof Lazaridis in his 2022 paper showed that blond hair did not spread into Europe with steppe pastoralists carrying Ancient North Eurasian ancestry. Regarding the genetic history of light hair, eyes, and skin, the authors state that "aspects of this phenotype were distributed in the past among diverse ancestral populations and did not coincide in any single population except as isolated individuals, and certainly not in any of the proposed homelands of the Indo-European language family. The study analyzed thousands of newly sequenced ancient samples and identified genetic mutations for blond hair in individuals belonging to the neolithic Linear Pottery Culture of North and Central Europe, the Neolithic of Anatolia (Turkey) at Barcın, Chalcolithic Southeastern Europe (Romania at Bodrogkeresztur), Chalcolithic of the Levant (Israel), and a Minoan from Lasithi. These populations did not carry Ancient North Eurasian ancestry. Furthermore, Lazaridis noted that blond hair was virtually absent amongst the earliest steppe pastoralist groups such as the Yamnaya and Afanasievo cultures, but nominally higher in later steppe groups possessing Early European Farmer ancestry such as the Bell Beaker Culture. Lazaridis concluded that the prevalence of blond hair across ancient samples was "in reverse relationship to steppe ancestry, and thus inconsistent with the theory that steppe groups were spreading this set of phenotypes."

A 2019 study examining the neolithic Globular Amphora Culture found that all tested individuals carried the mutated allele rs12821256 of the KITLG gene encoding for blond hair. Notably, these Early European Farmers did not possess ancestry from Indo-European steppe pastoralists, and therefore lacked ancestry from Ancient North Eurasians.

Noleb (talk) 03:31, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

I think that you need to address the length of that quote. It is likely a copyright violation at that length.

Kingsmasher678 (talk) 22:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

But likely a good edit, other than that.

Kingsmasher678 (talk) 22:50, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

 Done without the quote. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 23:20, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Noleb wrote: "A 2019 study examining the neolithic Globular Amphora Culture found that all tested individuals carried the mutated allele rs12821256 of the KITLG gene encoding for blond hair.[36] Notably, these Early European Farmers did not possess ancestry from Indo-European steppe pastoralists, and therefore lacked ancestry from Ancient North Eurasians.[37]"

Some original research - synthesis has taken place here. Reference 37 and 36 are two completely different papers, using two different samples. The first referencce, Vai (2021) uses a sample from Kierzkowo, Poland. While the second reference, Schroeder (2019) uses a sample from Koszyce, Poland.

Neither reference says anything about the origin of blond hair, or of Ancient North Eurasians. It appears that Noleb has taken the pigmentation SNP data from Vai (2021), supplementary document 4 (in the excel file), and then combined that with the absence of Steppe ancestry from Schroder (2019). Yet these are two completely different samples and papers.

Noleb does this to make a point that is stated by neither paper. Which means they've breached the guidelines WP:SYNTHESIS and WP:ORIGINAL to push their POV against the hypothesis that thers12821256_G allele is from the Ancient North Eurasians.

See the Schroeder paper, including the Supplementary Materials files. The relevant Documents are 01 and 05. There's nothing about anything like what Noleb has tried to add to the article. Red Book Librarian (talk)

References

This section on genetics is definitely garbage. There is not a the mutation for blond hair. The exact genetic sequences involved are unknown. I have blond hair well into adulthood as do immediate family members and yet I personally lack "the mutation for blond hair". Not one of them and it's likely the same across the family.

https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs12821256

Here you can see that the mutation claimed to be the blond mutation is not. It simply is one possible mutation with a strong signal in mice and associated with blond hair at higher mutation rates in certain populations. The section just goes straight into origin skipping the genetics and it seems almost like a prank. Some kind of Aryan reference? "rapid selective sweep in European populations toward light skin and hair." this may also be based on nonsense. There's an SNP on one of the SLC genes that's associated with lighter features but it only accounts for a proportion of the potential effect and is not really well tested at all especially as it's so ubiquitous in Europe. The SLC mutations when tested in one or two very dark populations makes them something like 15% to 30% if I remember but that doesn't tell you the historic effect or effect in Europeans where it is surely the case that shade is highly poly genetic. It's also tested mainly in zebrafish so again, misleading. The mutation is not standard across the rest of the world, it's a relatively recent one with very high frequency in Europe which raises an eyebrow. It's really only there recently and is almost a marker of being European. This means other lighter skinned people such as in East Asia lack it. I suspect again that some kind of racial pseudoscience prank is afoot here with a white skin mutation claimed as also a European mutation but it's more complex than that. It's as the least a series of gross simplifications treating identified SNPs with highest apparent contribution as though the one switch for it all which is not the case. Is it possible to just put the mischief aside and for someone with a good background in genetics to clean up this section a bit so as to actually go into the genetics properly or at least correct the English so it's not making it out like it *the* blond hair mutation? I would advise extreme caution on genetics especially human as there is a lot of sensationalism and jumping the gun. When I put in my variants into hirisplex I seem to get a bit darker than I actually am and those mutations are the same as are being discussed here. There's just way too much over reliance on single SNPs when it's rather obvious that there's just general selection for depigmentation and therefore surely a great many variants in a number of permutations in that direction with some possible evidence from what I've personally seen of nearby groups mixing combining strategies for depigmentation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.111.175.88 (talk • contribs) 21:27, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 March 2025

You should also say that "strawberry blond" is a hybrid of blond and redhead, and that strawberry blond is technically still blond. Also, you should talk about how "blond" has started be become used for both males and females because some people have started to believe that spelling it as "blonde" for females is sexist, and that "blonde" has also been used an inaccurate spelling for males by some people. --2600:4040:A5F2:D300:3CDB:A3CC:1BA8:4302 (talk) 18:27, 3 March 2025 (UTC)

The article already describes strawberry blond in the third sentence. We're not going to add the rest of it because you haven't supplied a reliable source to support any of it. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 18:30, 3 March 2025 (UTC)

Lamno people, Aceh

Hi, everyone.

Is it okay if Lamno people from Aceh (compare Portuguese Indonesians) were to be included in Prevalence > Asia? It is theorised that they are the descendants of Portuguese traders (compare Acehnese people). Pompom the o (talk) 10:39, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

If there are reliable sources supporting their inclusion, I don't see why not. TylerBurden (talk) 21:52, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

Monroe

Our biography of Marilyn Monroe cites several sources for her not having naturally-blonde hair, but instead to have dyed it that way as she took up modelling etc. Given this, her presence in the 'Modern cultural stereotypes' section makes little sense, at least without informing readers of the fact. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:27, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

Given the lack of response, I've now removed the content on Monroe. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:55, 6 August 2025 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 June 2025

I request for where it says "and among some Asian people" to be changed to "and among some Central Asian people". 2A0A:EF40:13B6:7201:609B:D8D8:8CC5:4613 (talk) 09:07, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

 Not done: no reason given for the proposed change. M.Bitton (talk) 13:50, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 June 2025 (2)

I request for where it says "and among some Asian people" to be changed to "and among some Central Asian people", in order to be more specific. 2A0A:EF40:13B6:7201:F97D:DB3B:9A47:2BC6 (talk) 16:53, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. M.Bitton (talk) 16:59, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

Unfortunately, it's possibly a little too specific, as well as being unsourced. Certainly, central Asia now has the highest concentration of blond individuals, but (assuming our article is correct - I've not checked the sources) the distribution has sometimes been wider, and even now, it isn't exclusively confined to the central region. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:01, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 June 2025 (3)

I request for where it says "and among some Asian people" to be changed to "and among some West Asian, South Asian, and Central Asian people", in order to be more specific. 2A0A:EF40:1231:A801:F436:5726:340F:C843 (talk) 17:53, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

Please do not start multiple threads on the same topic. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:58, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

General prevalence of blond hair dramatically understated

In the article the text reads: "According to the sociologist Christie Davies, only around five percent of adults in Europe and North America are naturally blond.[41] A study conducted in 2003 concluded that only four percent of American adults are naturally blond.[42]." However, upon chasing the sources down to their origin, On Blondes by Joanne Pitman, it does not seem as though Pitman provides a source for her assertions. Moreover, this information clearly contradicts the map detailing geographical prevalence of blondness in Europe, which by my rough estimate shows countries that are at least 60% of Europe's population being at least 20% blond. ~2026-43421 (talk) 01:51, 3 January 2026 (UTC)

Spelling note needed for lead

In the UK Blonde is used for everyone with blonde hair. The version in the LEAD is only for America. A note should be added. Inayity (talk) 16:21, 1 February 2026 (UTC)

I'm not sure this is true; as a British English speaker I certainly use both blonde and blond according to gender and see it used in BrEng. At least according to the OED the distinction is observed by some but not all speakers of both AmEng and BrEng; they say that for those who do not observe the distinction "blonde" is more common in BrEng and "blond" in AmEng. This level of detail about usage is probably not appropriate for the lead; if we're going to discuss it then put something in Blond#Usage.

(I will also note that in this archived talkpage thread there seems to be some dispute about what the standard American English usage actually is; some American style guides suggest "blond" should always be used as an adjective but when used as a noun it should be gendered, while others suggest that the adjective should be also.) Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 11:21, 4 February 2026 (UTC)

Unrelated source?

Under "Modern cultural stereotypes - Sexuality" there is this paragraph which needs work:

"In 2014, a study found that blond-haired Swedish women were ranked below Chinese women in the female beauty hierarchy. According to the author, the blonde hair of Swedish women reduced their femininity, because it was seen as a Western trait. These women's Swedish husbands were highly attracted to local East Asian women, which further reduced the self-esteem of the blonde Swedish women."

The source linked for this paragraph (source 124) is not the study in question or actually any study at all, it is a book and I couldn't find the study that was mentioned in this book by searching relevant keywords. If the study cannot be found and cited, I think this should be deleted for now. ~2026-15411-71 (talk) 03:32, 11 March 2026 (UTC)

Incomplete Bibliography

There are a lot of references in the notes that are not included in the Bibliography. ~2026-18356-74 (talk) 16:44, 26 March 2026 (UTC)