Talk:Alan Turing

Christopher Morcom article

Hi I've recently published the Christopher Morcom article and nominated it for good article status. As his relationship with Turing is the reason for his notability, someone interested in Turing might want to review the Morcom good article nomination. Panamitsu ✨ 09:47, 22 April 2026 (UTC)

"Alanturing" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Alanturing has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2026 May 19 § Alanturing until a consensus is reached. 𝔅𝔦𝔰-𝔖𝔢𝔯𝔧𝔢𝔱𝔞? 18:50, 19 May 2026 (UTC)

New Ratio Club (and cybernetics) section

I've just created a new subsection under Career and Research mainly about his Ratio Club membership but also for any other involvement he had with the post-war cybernetics scene. I don't necessarily want to give the matter that much prominence, but it doesn't seem to fit well into the existing subsections: maybe it could be shoehorned into Early computers and the Turing Test? It also seems too research-related to go under Personal life despite the social aspect. If you have any ideas or concerns please feel free to comment. RW Dutton (talk) RW Dutton (talk) 01:35, 18 June 2026 (UTC)

19-year old man or boy? (answer to now archived talkpoint)

In Turing's lifetime the age of legal majority was 21, before that age you couldn't vote and marriage under it required parental consent etc. In the eyes of the law Turing's partner in what was then homosexual crime was legally technically a minor. Whether to call him man or boy may depend on another age limit at the time, juvenile criminal responsibility (whereby under that age a crime committed by you came under jurisdiction of juvenile courts); what was it then? If he was above the latter age zone he could be callable as a "man". The legal ages have changed since then, of course. What did press reports of 1951 call the 19-year-old>Cloptonson (talk) 13:55, 24 June 2026 (UTC)

The current source clearly describes Arnold Murray as a "19-year-old unemployed man". It's stated source for that paragraph is: Alan Hodges, Alan Turing: the Enigma (1983) page 566. Looking at a 1992 edition of that book on GoogleBooks, on page 449, Hodges also describes him as a "young man". But I can't see him mentioned at all on page 566 of that edition. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:13, 24 June 2026 (UTC)

While the age of majority was 21 in 1950s Britain, the legal age of consent was 16 at the time (for heterosexual relations; Criminal Law Amendment Act 1885) and the age of criminal responsibility was literally 8 years (Children and Young Persons Act 1933). A 19 year-old would have been tried and prosecuted as a legal adult. Also, while there was no legal age of consent for homosexual relations in 1952, subsequent "decriminalization" set the homosexual age of consent at 21, with the heterosexual still 16; the homosexual age was dropped to 18 in the 90s, they were finally equalized at 16 in 2000. Neonlio (talk) 23:58, 4 July 2026 (UTC)

Proposal for heavily revising the "Doubts about suicide" section (WP:WEIGHT, MEDRS)

The section as written, and in several other locations throughout the page, uncritically states scientifically unsupportable opinions as fact and gives undue weight to an inaccurate representation of the archival source materials.

"An inquest determined his death as suicide, but the evidence is also consistent with accidental poisoning."

The forensic and historical evidence is not co-equally consistent with "accidental" theories. The accidental ingestion theory was propagated by Sara Turing, a deeply religious woman who never accepted her son's homosexuality or suicide—both of which were criminal offenses in 1954, and sources of social and religious shame. Further, the theory relies on the idea that AMT was "careless" with his experiments; while colleagues, friends, and acquaintances noted Turing could be untidy with papers or his appearance, I have not found any record of his contemporaries describing him as careless with experiments. He was a 41-year-old, meticulous scientist and mathematician, not a foolish schoolboy playing with a compound he didn't know was lethal. Also, potassium cyanide is intensely bitter and typically causes an immediate caustic burning sensation upon contact with mucous membranes. It seems biologically improbable for someone to casually take several bites, chew, and swallow an apple lethally laced with cyanide "by accident". Ultimately, the narrative that Turing was "careless" was a comforting explanation embraced by his mother and later co-opted by modern researchers to challenge the official suicide verdict, rather than a complaint ever voiced by colleagues familiar with his laboratory work. As Hodges notes in his definitive biography, Turing explicitly discussed the mechanics of staging a suicide as a laboratory mishap years prior to his death.

Jack Copeland famously began pushing the "accidental inhalation" narrative in a 2012 BBC article; it was published during the height of when the British government was receiving (inter)national pressure to grant Turing a posthumous pardon. The theory relies almost entirely on an unscientific reading of the post-mortem exam, focusing exclusively on the lung findings and a lay reading of the word "asphyxia", ignoring the stomach contents and the forensic toxicological nature of cyanide poisoning.

Inhalation generally results in death much faster than ingestion, contrary to what the BBC article claims ["Prof Copeland notes...that inhalation leads to a slower death than ingestion"]. Scientific consensus explains that "exposure to cyanide via the inhalation route results in symptoms within seconds of exposure, whereas symptoms following ingestion occurs in minutes to hours" [A Review on Ingested Cyanide], with longer timeframes generally associated with ingestion of foods containing cyanogenic compounds like cassava, rather than pure cyanide—and that is just the timeline of symptoms regardless of exposure severity. However, lethal inhaled doses typically kill within seconds and ingested ones within minutes [Johns Hopkins Cyanide Factsheet].

Further, Turing's "nightmare room" (where he kept his electroplating setup; Hodges, p. 609) was the only place in the house the police noted the distinct smell of cyanide; notably, the scent was not in his bedroom. Sgt Leonard Cottrel's deposition states: "On going to the small back bedroom on the same floor [as the primary suite], I found that this room had been used for mostly electrical experiments [...] In this room there was a strong smell of bitter almonds." On the other hand, the only scent he mentioned regarding Turing's own bedroom (where he was found dead in bed) was "a faint smell of bitter almonds about [AMT's] mouth" [AMT-K-6]. According to modern documentation of the house's floorplan, which still perfectly aligns with the 1954 police description regarding the 3 bedrooms' placement on the first floor (primary, middle, back), enough hydrogen cyanide gas to kill Turing—but little enough to then dissipate to undetectable levels within hours—would had to have traveled through a roughly 5m-long hallway with an open stairwell to the floors below and above, as well as through at least one if not two closed doors (Mrs Clayton's deposition notes that Turing’s bedroom door was closed before she opened it to find him dead; no mention is made of the lab room's door position). It verges on the physically impossible for Turing to have inhaled the cyanide dose that killed him. While I'm not saying we should necessarily include all of my personal synthesis regarding the floorplan and such, Wikipedia must avoid stating unsourced medical claims or forensically unsupportable speculation as fact (WP:FRINGE, WP:MEDRS).

According to that same 2012 BBC article, Copeland argues "that the distribution of the poison in Turing's organs was more consistent with inhalation than with ingestion." But this is false. If hydrogen cyanide gas is inhaled, it is near-immediately absorbed by the bloodstream: it does not manifest as a heavily scented liquid solution in the stomach, as was documented. Also, regardless of intake method, acute cyanide poisoning causes neurogenic and cardiogenic pulmonary edema (the "thin watery fluid [that] filled the bronchi and the lungs" described in the autopsy). The official cause of Turing’s death is listed as "Asphyxia, due to Cyanide poisoning", which some proponents of the inhalation theory may present as evidence. However, to equate "asphyxiation" with "inhalation" is scientifically inaccurate. As the Wikipedia page on cyanide poisoning itself states, "Cyanide is a potent cytochrome c oxidase (COX, a.k.a. Complex IV) inhibitor, causing asphyxiation of cells. As such, cyanide poisoning is a form of histotoxic hypoxia." Regardless of intake method, the body undergoes chemical-induced cellular asphyxiation, and the resultant rapid shutdown of bodily functions typically results in pulmonary edema (and often foaming at the mouth; if anyone is interested in more details about the biology of neuro/cardiogenic pulmonary edema, I am happy to provide sources)—that is just how lethal cyanide poisoning generally manifests in mammals, not an indication of intake method.

"When his body was discovered, an apple lay half-eaten beside his bed, and although the apple was not tested for cyanide,[193] it was speculated that this was the means by which Turing had consumed a fatal dose."

While the apple hypothesis is well-documented in popular histories and therefore likely should be mentioned, it does not fully account for the forensic reality of the official inquest and thus should be qualified for forensic accuracy. By 1954, post-mortem exams routinely documented stomach contents in detail to help determine approximate time of death. It explicitly describes the stomach as "Contain[ing] four ounces of fluid which smelled very strongly of bitter almonds, as does a solution of cyanide" (emphases mine); the gastric contents and blood were chemically analyzed, testing positive for cyanide. Since there is no mention of partly digested food chunks (just fluid), this likely suggests that the apple had to have been in the stomach long enough before death to have at least digested into chyme, likely around 30-60 minutes minimum; while verging on the technically potentially possible depending on dose, it is actually rather unlikely the apple was consumed at the same time as the cyanide. Indeed, the inquest did not itself suggest the apple was the poison vehicle; while its presence was noted in despositions, the 'Snow White apple' speculation seems to be a later invention. Further, the autopsy qualifiers around the strength of the smell of cyanide in different parts of Turing’s body also seem to indicate that the presence of cyanide was most concentrated in the stomach contents, as it is the only use of the word "very" regarding the bitter almond scent of any organs or fluids.

Additionally, "accident" proponents often point to several alleged "indicators of wellness" without the full historical or psychosocial context. As noted by biographers like Hodges, Turing's brother and mother intentionally culled (burned) many of his personal papers, removing indications of his homosexuality and psychological state; if Turing ever mentioned being depressed in his diaries, we will more than likely never know. A lack of evidence—which may not have failed to exist in the first place, but was intentionally censored by homophobic family members—should not be interpreted as a lack of effect. In 1952, writing about his conviction to Norman Routledge, Turing explicitly stated: "However I am not at present in a state in which I am able to concentrate well, for reasons explained in the next paragraph. [break] I’ve now got myself into the kind of trouble that I have always considered to be quite a possibility for me, though I have usually rated it at about 10:1 against. I shall shortly be pleading guilty to a charge of sexual offences with a young man... No doubt I shall emerge from it all a different man, but quite who I’ve not found out.. I’m afraid that the following syllogism may be used by some in the future. Turing believes machines think / Turing lies with men / Therefore machines do not think / Yours in distress, Alan" [AMT D-14A].

Proponents also often take a single statement from Hodges's biography from a conversation Norman Routledge verbally recalled to him when interviewed—"For Alan would not let the system defeat him. On May Day 1952 there was a meeting of the Ratio Club at Cambridge, which he attended, and it was probably then that he saw Norman Routledge at King’s. Alan explained about the trial and the hormone treatment (‘I’m growing breasts!’) and Norman told him that he had heard that in Norway (of all places) there were dances ‘for men only’" (p. 599)—as so-called proof he took his medical abuse with 'good humor' and that it didn't impact his well-being. But this is a misrepresentation of the source material; while in his biography, Hodges does explain that Turing often used dark humor as a coping mechanism, he did not use this recollection as evidence of a joke or lightheartedness. An emphatic exclamation does not inherently indicate a lack of distress, and Routledge's response to this particular statement was to tell Turing about a place he could potentially live more freely—to escape the homophobia of Britain.

Furthermore, both historical and modern research confirm that the breast tissue that grows as a result of estrogen does not disappear after ceasing the drug: it was a permanent forced feminization of Turing's body [Cleveland Clinic - Gynecomastia]. When cisgender gay men are coerced to undergo medical feminization—as is the case for some in modern Iran ([LGBT Iranians Recount the Horrors of "Conversion Therapy"]—is typically a profoundly traumatic experience with enduring physical and psychological impacts. Cis men who develop gynecomastia for other medical reasons have also described experiencing dysphoria [‘Chop the Things Off’: The Plight of Boys Who Grow Breasts ]. While hormone therapy can be life-saving for trans individuals, the state causing gender dysphoria by misguided hormone treatments to "cure homosexuality" in people previously happy with their bodies can lead to the same depressive symptoms as observed in pre-transition trans individuals. Beyond the breast tissue, modern neuroendocrine research strongly suggests high-dose DES results in permanent or semi-permanent hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular-adrenal axis damage and monoaminergic disruption. The effects of exogenous sex hormones do not necessarily cease when the compounds stop circulating the body. To point to the fact that his mandated chemical castration had ended 14 months before his death to say it couldn't have impacted him uses a mid-20th century understanding of neuroendocrinology to shield the state from the reality of modern science. In all likelihood, at the time of his death, Turing's physiology was still being impacted by epigenetic, structural, etc. changes from the massive doses of exogenous estrogen he had been subjected to for 12 months [[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31080102/ Testosterone Recovery Profiles After Cessation of Androgen Deprivation Therapy for Prostate Cancer]; Male reprotoxicity and endocrine disruption; Long-term Surgical and Chemical Castration Deteriorates Memory Function Through Downregulation of PKA/CREB/BDNF and c-Raf/MEK/ERK Pathways in Hippocampus; Long-term chemical castration induces depressive symptoms by suppressing serotonin expression in rats; Can Low Testosterone Cause Anxiety and Depression?; One year follow-up study of the association between chemical castration, sex hormones, beta-amyloid, memory and depression in men; The Involvement of Hypothalamus–Pituitary–Adrenal (HPA) Axis in Suicide Risk; Diethylstilbestrol regulates the number of alpha- and beta-adrenergic binding sites in incubated hypothalamus and amygdala; Blunted HPA Axis Activity in Suicide Attempters Compared to those at High Risk for Suicidal Behavior; [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29107881/ Increased estrogen level can be associated with depression in males]]. However, even if the synthetic estrogen didn't permanently alter his metabolism and neurobiology, modern research on the development of PTSD and other neuropsychiatric disorders following subjection to conversion therapy (and state surveillance) consistently observes an increased risk of suicide. [[https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/conversion-therapy-an-evidence-assessment-and-qualitative-study/conversion-therapy-an-evidence-assessment-and-qualitative-study Conversion therapy: an evidence assessment and qualitative study]; Conversion practice recall and mental health symptoms in sexual and gender minority adults in the USA: a cross-sectional study; ‘Conversion Therapy’ As Degrading Treatment; ‘Conversion therapy’ can amount to torture and should be banned says UN expert; [https://www.vice.com/en/article/what-constant-surveillance-does-to-your-brain/ What Constant Surveillance Does to Your Brain]] [[https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1073858409333072 Posttraumatic Stress Disorder: The Role of Medial Prefrontal Cortex and Amygdala]; [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0149763412000930?via%3Dihub Neurocircuitry models of posttraumatic stress disorder and beyond: A meta-analysis of functional neuroimaging studies]]

"Accident" proponents also foster dangerous myths about the nature of depression and suicidal behaviors. Modern suicidology has thoroughly documented the phenomena of suicidal masking and the apparent uplift of the "post-decision phase"— a period of time often mistaken as recovery when in fact it is an indication that the person knows their suffering will come to an end soon. Many suicidal people intentionally hide their suicidality from others—especially loved ones—so no one interferes; this can include making future plans they have no intention of being alive for. [[https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11404629/#abstract1 Conceptual Model of and Intervention Development for Unplanned Suicide Attempts]; StatPearls - Suicidal Ideation; The communication of suicidal intentions: a meta-analysis; The Mask of Suicide; “Smiling depression” (an emerging threat): Let’s Talk; [https://www.ijpsjournal.com/article/Smiling+Depression+When+A+Smile+Hides+the+Pain+ Smiling Depression: When A Smile Hides the Pain]]

It is also plainly false to state that Turing made no attempts at putting his affairs in order: he wrote his will 4 months before his death, and in personal letters, his friends discussed whether his suicide was fully premeditated or spur-of-the-moment—but they don't seem to doubt the verdict overall [AMT-A-5]. Leaving a to-do list or planning to attend the theater is arguably less of a psychological indication than is authoring an official document preparing for your own death, particularly when you are known to be in good physical health and have no direct descendants to whom you might bequeath a small estate.

Elsewhere on the page, it currently states: "In 1952, Turing was prosecuted for homosexual acts. He accepted hormone treatment, a procedure commonly referred to as chemical castration, as an alternative to prison". Framing a court-ordered punishment for his sexuality as a "treatment" he passively "accepted" verges on an institutional apologist stance that undermines the nature of the state-sanctioned medical abuse (cruel and inhuman punishment) Turing endured. Perhaps an alternative phrasing could be something like "When faced with either a 2-year prison sentence or a 1-year probation conditional on chemical castration—a high-dose estrogen regimen—Turing was coerced into the medical abuse, thereby retaining his freedom of movement." Also this other sentence is dangerously close to framing conversion therapy as though it could be 'successful', which modern scientific consensus disputes: "The hormonal injections did not appear to have worked as expected, as Turing was still finding himself attracted to men."

Certainly open to discussing how we can make the page better conform to Wiki standards! Neonlio (talk) 01:32, 9 July 2026 (UTC)

I'm not convinced by "Turing was coerced into the medical abuse". He was forced to choose between two evils, not forced to choose one of them. Zero^talk 05:23, 9 July 2026 (UTC)

Fair enough. I used the word "coerced" because a decision made under threat of imprisonment is not a free choice, and Turing was known to be unashamed of his sexuality—he had no documented desire to be "cured" and, if anything, documented the opposite—but I'm certainly open to other phrasing. That sentence was just intended as an example of how we could maybe better frame the "two evils" he was forced to choose between. While the current sentence is not necessarily factually inaccurate, I think it is important to be more explicit about the fact that he did not passively agree to state-sanctioned medical abuse; perhaps we could simply add a subsequent sentence that qualifies the unscientific nature of chemical castration as conversion therapy? Neonlio (talk) 16:00, 9 July 2026 (UTC)