Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mashwani

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.‎

The result was keep. Spartaz ^Humbug! 22:54, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Mashwani

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Mashwani (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Was previously deleted per this discussion and was deemed a hoax. The author was indeffed; so the author of this article is a blatant sock of that account also. IWI (chat) 16:21, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Mashwani83 (talk) 11:20, 2 June 2020 (UTC) Hello, I am the author of Mashwani article. I would be happy to participate in the debate to stop the deletion of this article. I have provided strong references in the subject article if someone has doubts about the references I am willing to discuss each of the references with proofs. I see no reason for the deletion of this article, the topic is genuine. However, If I did not follow wikipedia policy at some places, I would request to highlight them to me so that I correct them accordingly, to further improve the article rather than deletion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mashwani83 (talk • contribs) 08:11, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

The article was deleted as a hoax in December 2018, with the author indefinitely blocked. Then you receated it in February 20202019. That would definitely suggest you are a sockpuppet. Someone checked the sources (which were in Arabic and Pashto) and confirmed the articles were hoaxes. For these reasons, I have filed a sockpuppet investigation against you. IWI (chat) 12:45, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment. Let me correct a typo in your comment, I recreated the page on 5 Feb 2019. Secondly, I am here to defend the article I wrote on Mashwani. If it was already written by someone else before and he/she could not defend his article, that is not related to my Article. Thirdly, regarding the Arabic and Pashto referencing, please I would once again humbly suggest to quote references from this article so that I could respond and defend. Fourthly, please highlight hoaxes in this article for debate. This article can not be deleted solely on the basis of previously poorly written article by another user. Looking forward for valuable comments. Thanks. Mashwani83 (talk) 13:54, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes it can, as when a page is deemed a hoax, it means the subject does not exist. I cannot compare the sources as I cannot see deleted articles. The article is, at the very least, an un-notable ancestor. IWI (chat) 14:28, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Mashwani83 (talk) 15:06, 2 June 2020 (UTC) Thank you for commenting. I recommend you to Please Identify false information with strong references for debate with me. Secondly, Mashwai is not un-notable ancestor, he has been discussed in different books time to time sinces 13th century, he is forefather of aroung 700000 papulation of Mashwani Tribe. on Wikipedia there are 100's of articles written on different tribes, then why can't this article on Mashwani? I am looking forward to unbiased, who comments with strong references and proofs to further improve the article. Otherwise, I would suggest restoring the status of this page back to normal.

I can't read the references you have given, but to my memory they are similar to before. An admin can confirm any similarities. Since this was deemed a hoax before, there is no reason to believe that this article isn't either, especially when obscure inaccessible sources have been used. IWI (chat) 16:33, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

You've also used names within the article like Syed Muhammad Masood, which was the name of another article deleted as a hoax in that discussion, further backing my point of this being a hoax. IWI (chat) 16:45, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your valuable comment. A user "IWI" has tagged this article for deletion solely on the basis of other deleted articles. Still, he is unable to find suitable issues within this article. He is talking generally, without referencing to books to proof the information in the subject article as a hoax. Although his reputation on Wikipedia is good but however, his allegations on this article are baseless without genuine proofs.

• "IWI" is not aware of the actual issue with this article but he just tagged this article for deletion based on the previously written article on Mashwani and Syed Muhammad Masood, which were deleted because of the reason unknown to me. I suggest, if "IWI" wants deletion of the article he should come up with the solid reason within this particular article. But unfortunately, he has not done the research, particularly in this article. But talking generally and waisting time.

• "IWI" quoted that I am the same author of the old deleted Mashwanis article which was deemed hoax and the author was blocked as per your remarks. Let me clarify, that I have nothing to do with the old article or its author whatsoever. This article is totally my research and this is my original ID, and I own and use only one ID since start.

• "IWI" quoted that "the article is about an un-notable ancestor". But in fact, Mashwani is the forefather of Mashwani tribe whose population is around 7,00,000. Mashwani is discussed in different books by historians since the 13th-century from time to time, references to books already quoted in the main article. Furthermore, there are a lot of backlinks to Mashwani article from other Wikipedia articles as well as from the Web, showing the strong evidence of the popularity of the Mashwani hence proving the claim of "IWI" incorrect. Thousands of individuals have articles as well as almost every tribe has an article on Wikipedia then why there can not be an article about Mashwani?

• "IWI" Quoted that "references of the Mashwani article are not accessible". All the references are authentic with correct titles, author names, and years of publishing. They can be found in libraries, stores, or on Web. Please have a look to references of the article, most of the references are linked to google books, click on them, it will lead you to the particular book on google books, hence showing the authenticity of the source, however because of copyright issue google books will not show you some or all of the contents of the book. But you can find them in libraries, stores or on the Web. I encourage you to find and read those books, you are always welcome to point out any misquotes (if you find any) and we will be glad to correct them if found. If you are unable to search books, I have them in soft form, please guide me, how can I share them with you.

Conclusion: "IWI" has misunderstood this article with the previously deleted article and its user. In this connection, he tagged my research in this article as a hoax and my ID and as a fake ID. However, this is his personal understanding and belief which cannot be presented as facts.

I request admins to restore the normal status of the article.Mashwani83 (talk) 19:12, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Someone checked the sources of the old article (which were in Arabic and Pashto) and confirmed that they didn't mention the subject. I am well aware of the issue. At the very least, this article lacks notability. IWI (chat) 21:46, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

You are still not talking about this article but the references of someone else article. Mashwani83 (talk) 02:24, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

As proof I am attaching a screenshot from some of the strong and reliable sources where Mashwani is discussed:

• First screen screenshot is from a Persian book (Harwi ہروی, Nimatullah خواجہ نعمت اللہ (1613). Tarikh-i-khan jahani makhzan-i-Afghani: A complete history of the Afghans in Indo-Pak sub-continent, Volume 2, تاریخ خان جھانی مخزن افغانی. pp. 648–649) .
• Along with a screenshot of its English version book (Dorn, Bernhard (1829). History of the Afghans, (English translation of Tarikh-i-khan jahani makhzan-i-Afghani), Volume 2,. London. pp. 56–57),
• and the third screenshot is of the book (Bellew, Henry Walter (1978). Journal of a Political Mission to Afghanistan, in 1857, Under Major (now Colonel) Lumsden: With an Account of the Country and People. Page 64).

The image is in the high quality, download it and zoom into any part for reading. I attached a few, but there are many others too.

Schreenshot from some of the Historical books showing Proof of Mashwani Tribe

Mashwani83 (talk) 05:54, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

That image was a copyright violation so I tagged it with speedy deletion. Let's wait for other editors to get involved. IWI (chat) 13:33, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

The books briefly mention this tribe, and that's about it. Like I said, a the very least this is not notable. IWI (chat) 13:36, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

I quoted only three references in my above comment with screenshots (which is now tagged for fast deletion because of copyright violation) just for your convenience in response to your comment in which you said the Subject "Mashwani" was not even discussed in any of the cited references. Besides the above three, you can check each of the references of the article, you will find discussions on Mashwani in different parts of the books. In addition, you can refer to the below books which are specifically written on Mashwani only.

• Shah, Syed Yousaf (1930). Halat-e-Mashwani حالات مشوانی. Lahore: Muhammad Press. A book was written about the history of Mashwani.
• Khan, Juma (2015). Hayat-e-Mashwani, Yūnīvarsiṭī Buk Ejansī, length 500 Pages Historical and genealogical study of Mashwani (South Asian people).
• Shah, Umar Khitab, (2014), Khitab-e-Mashwani, Karachi. A book written about the history of Mashwani.

In the main article, I preferred to restrict the citations to papular books only, besides them, there are also hundreds of other books and web articles/websites where the subject is discussed. Research in this article is a summary of all the references cited in the article as well as the sources that are not cited.

Thank you for your critics, I hope it will help me to further improve the article. Mashwani83 (talk) 15:25, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

I have just read a heated discussion here that had taken place between IWI and another user, about whom IWI is mistaken that it was my second ID. Now the situation is clear to me. In my opinion, it's totally personal between IWI and that user, that is why IWI is sticking to that old ID, and avoiding the authenticity of this article and all the strong references. I, therefore, appeal to admins to keep in mind that IWI is not neutral towards me and my article but he is biased because he is mistakenly considering me as the same user with whom he had heated discussion, I am expecting a fair decision. PS. No offense intended for IWI, Mashwani83 (talk) 19:59, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 01:06, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

• Keep This tribe appears to exist and is not a hoax . There is also a bucket load of sources mentioning them in passing, like this New York Times article: . This is backed up by the books in the references. This says they occupy between forty and fifty villages in the border region between Afghanistan and Pakistan. There isn't a guideline for whether or not ethnic groups or tribes are notable, but if there was one I think they would pass it as they are a recognised group widely documented as living in a well-defined area. However, I think it is highly doubtful that this tribe has 700,000 members as stated in the article. The capital of this tribe, Sirikot, is perhaps a victim of similar embellishment, as it supposedly has a population of 85,000, despite appearing on google maps to be a small town with a few shops and a mosque. Perhaps a cleanup of these articles is needed. AlessandroTiandelli333 (talk) 10:12, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

• Keep - there is certainly a "Mashwani tribe", as in "PML-N senator lauds services of Mashwani tribe" and "Chief of Mashwani tribe back in his hometown only to be buried" for example. Further, the Mashwani tribe are famous for their handwoven carpets: "Mashwani design rug, western Afghanistan" (Museum of Applied Arts & Sciences, Sydney). There is therefore no question of WP:HOAX, and really no doubt about notability. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:38, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

• Keep - Mashwani is an existing tribe, not a hoax. Ainty Painty (talk) 15:17, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

• Comment - Okay so not a hoax - It'd be interesting to see what was deleted beforehand then. The user is still probably a sock of an indeffed user. IWI (chat) 20:35, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

- Allegation on my ID here is not true and solely on the basis of assumptions. I am more than sure the allegation will be dropped after technical analysis, Thanks.Mashwani83 (talk) 04:17, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Both of you - that is not a matter for this AfD. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:54, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

• Keep Tribe appears notable. A user possibly being a banned sock has no impact on that.★Trekker (talk) 14:55, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
• Comment I think this article contains a lot of original research, in the sense that it does not appear to be assembled from reliable sources. It looks like a narrative that has been created from received wisdom and supported here and there with pieces of evidence assembled by google search into a whole that no source appears to cover. For example the entire section “Defeat of Hari Singh Nalwa (Sikh Khalsa Army) at the hands of Mashwanis (1824)“ appears to be constructed around a single source that happens to mention that a village was Mashwani. While I don’t think deletion is warranted, I think this should be stripped right back to the basics of what can be supported by reliable sources, which is not much. Mccapra (talk) 07:48, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

-All the references are from authentic books/reliable sources as also endorsed by the above voters in their comments. No new research is carried out in the article.Mashwani83 (talk) 14:31, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

• Comment - Since the article was tagged for deletion on the basis of hoax and notability. And is being discussed since 1st June and relisted on 9 June. So far all votes are in favor of keeping the article. Therefore, I would humbly request to conclude the voting result within the time period of the Wikipedia voting policy in-order to not discourage the editor. Mashwani83 (talk) 14:31, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
• Keep Located north of the Kabul River. Certainly not a hoax. There is some confusion on Google books about where they are located, but they do exist. Also do you Mashwani rugs, which I've seen for sale. Solid keep.scope_creep^Talk 17:06, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.