Talk:Welsh Not/GA1

GA review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Nominator: Llewee (talk · contribs) 00:10, 10 February 2026 (UTC)

Reviewer: Zzz plant (talk · contribs) 02:24, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

Hi Llewee, thank you for your work on this article- this looks like a very interesting topic. I will review it against the GA criteria and should have comments posted within the next day. Best, Zzz plant (talk) 02:24, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

Thanks @Zzz plant, I should be able to start answering the comments on Friday. Llewee (talk) 22:47, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

Thank you again for your work on this article. There are just a few outstanding prose points, but overall this article is in very good shape and I'm looking forward to promoting it soon. Best, Zzz plant (talk) 13:39, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

Really excellent work across the board here, and thank you again for being so responsive! I'm happy to promote this, as it meets all the GA criteria. I encourage you to consider nominating it for DYK - as a newly promoted GA it will be eligible, and I think there are multiple potential "hooky" facts in the article. Best, Zzz plant (talk) 00:10, 16 February 2026 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box

Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Well-written?

• overall yes, this article is quite well-written. it is consistently clear to a broad, general audience. I also found it a quite engaging read. I did notice some quite minor repetition in a few places, so I will organize some suggestions below by subsection. General disclaimer: not all of my prose notes will directly pertain to GACR, and please feel very free to push back on any thing you don't think would be an improvement. Zzz plant (talk) 16:12, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

Lede

• "The Welsh Not was a token used by teachers at some schools in Wales, mainly in the 19th century, to discourage children from speaking Welsh at school, by marking out those who were heard speaking the language." - I would suggest removing "at school" since that is already established in the first clause. and/or you could replace "children" with "schoolchildren" Zzz plant (talk) 16:12, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
• "It could be followed by an additional punishment; sometimes a physical punishment." - would suggest rephrasing to avoid repeating "punishment". maybe something like "It could be followed by further discipline, sometimes involving corporal punishment." Zzz plant (talk) 16:12, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
  • done--Llewee (talk) 13:56, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
• for the second para, I do feel like the last sentence - which provides context for why/how the Not was instituted - sort of belongs nearer to the front, before the info about how it fell out of favor Zzz plant (talk) 16:12, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
  • moved to start of that paragraph--Llewee (talk) 13:56, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
• "Accounts suggest that its form and the nature of its use could vary from place to place, but the most common form was a piece of wood suspended on a string that was put around the child's neck." suggest simplifying slightly to "Accounts suggest that its form and use varied from place to place, but it was most commonly a piece of wood hung on a string and worn around the child’s neck." Zzz plant (talk) 16:12, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
  • done--Llewee (talk) 15:32, 13 February 2026 (UTC)

Overview

• "...banned the use of Welsh in the school and playground to force children to use and become proficient in English." suggest replacing "school" with "classroom" - since I assume the playground was also physically at the school; this helps convey that it was enforced both during lessons and students' unstructured free time Zzz plant (talk) 16:12, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
  • done--Llewee (talk) 16:49, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
• "Some of these schools punished children caught speaking Welsh with the Welsh Not." this sentence feels a bit tacked on to the first para, I think because to me it feels like it's repeating information that has already been conveyed in the previous sentences Zzz plant (talk) 16:12, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
  • moved to start of the next paragraph, the Not wasn't universal even at schools where children weren't allowed to speak Welsh--Llewee (talk) 16:49, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
• "The Welsh Not came in several forms and with different names (Welsh not,Welsh note, Welsh lump, Welsh stick, Welsh lead, cwstom, Welsh Mark, Welsh Ticket) and was used in different ways." - the stacked "ands" make this a tad difficult to parse. suggest something like "The Welsh Not came in several forms and was used in differing ways. It was also known by other names, including..." Zzz plant (talk) 16:12, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
  • done, added detail about names and created terminology section--Llewee (talk) 16:49, 13 February 2026 (UTC)

    New terminology section looks excellent, separating it out was a great idea. Zzz plant (talk) 13:38, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

• "Similar approaches to teaching languages were used around Western Europe." if the sources support a specific example I think that could be a helpful add Zzz plant (talk) 16:12, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
  • added a couple--Llewee (talk) 17:33, 13 February 2026 (UTC)

History

• "...for instance, Rev Richard Warner..." recommend spelling out Reverend on first usage Zzz plant (talk) 16:12, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

  @Zzz plant done Llewee (talk) 17:58, 13 February 2026 (UTC)

• "Efforts by teachers to prohibit the speaking of Welsh in schools became gradually less common in the late 19th century." suggest "Efforts by teachers to prohibit the speaking of Welsh in schools gradually became less common in the late 19th century." Zzz plant (talk) 16:12, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

  Done--Llewee (talk) 14:31, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

Laws in Wales Acts

• very interesting section! as a non subject-matter expert, I would have assumed that these laws would be very poorly received by Welsh people. but it seems like it's much more nuanced than that; you convey that quite well. Zzz plant (talk) 16:12, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

• Yes, it is an interesting section but I can't take credit for it. It was here before I started working on the article.--Llewee (talk) 15:32, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

• my only note is about "It would also have led to the realisation that to get anywhere in a society dominated by England and the English, the ability to speak English would be a key skill." - I can't access the source, but I think this could probably be rephrased to avoid sounding like speculation. you can attribute the idea to Johnes Zzz plant (talk) 16:12, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

• I have access to an ebook version of the source (though it doesn't seem to have the same page numbers as the version used here). I've reworded the relevant sentence.--Llewee (talk) 15:32, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

19th century and early 20th century

• "The language was becoming more widespread in the industrialising areas due to migration" - suggest The language became more widespread in the industrialising areas due to migration." and providing a temporal marker here if possible - it's not super clear to me if this is a follow-up or the next step in the sequence from the first sentence Zzz plant (talk) 13:15, 12 February 2026 (UTC)

• Done the first part. The second and first sentence are meant to be at the same time. I initially had "however" at the start of the second sentence. However (lol), I have been told off by other editors for including too many of those kinds of words in my writing so I took it out.--Llewee (talk) 15:50, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

• "Welsh speakers were keen for their children to learn English..." would soften this ("some" or "many"), as I don't think it's possible to report definitively what every Welsh speaker wanted for their children Zzz plant (talk) 13:15, 12 February 2026 (UTC)

• added "many"--Llewee (talk) 15:50, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

• "...while, in schools where "the schoolmaster has to teach them English, and to talk English in the school, there is no room in the school-room to admit all that come" I would paraphrase this quote, as I don't think the specific phrasing is adding a lot (and may even be a bit hard to follow for some general readers). suggest something like "...while, in schools where the schoolmaster was expected to teach and speak only English, there was not enough space to accommodate all the children who wanted to attend." Zzz plant (talk) 13:15, 12 February 2026 (UTC)

• done--Llewee (talk) 15:50, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

• I think the section on Reports of the Commissioners of Inquiry into the State of Education in Wales could do with a tiny bit more context and depth to those who were critical of it. I would like to get a glimpse from reading this section as to why it was notorious enough to earn the "Treason" or "Treachery" moniker, even if it seems to have not advocated for the Welsh Not in particular. Zzz plant (talk) 13:15, 12 February 2026 (UTC)

• rewrote paragraph--Llewee (talk) 18:03, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

• "Welsh schools, in the first half of the 19th century, emphasised strict discipline." ymmv, but I feel like it may be good to mention or allude to that this (probably) wasn't just a quirk of Welsh schools in particular. schools in general were stricter in this period. Zzz plant (talk) 13:15, 12 February 2026 (UTC)

• I don't want to go off on too much of a tangent but I've tried to make the point that it was a British, rather than specifically Welsh, thing.--Llewee (talk) 19:37, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

  Looks good now Y Zzz plant (talk) 19:49, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

Reactions and impact

• "Government investigations in the mid-19th century indicated that excluding Welsh was not an effective way of teaching English, some teachers made use of Welsh to help teach English in that period." these almost seem like two separate thoughts. I would use a semi-colon if you want to connect them, but I'd also consider whether the connection could be clearer (if sources allow). like, did the teachers make use of Welsh to teach English in response to the government investigations? Zzz plant (talk) 13:15, 12 February 2026 (UTC)

• I don't think there was a direct connection. The government wasn't doing much to encourage them. I've broken up the sentence and added an example--Llewee (talk) 20:07, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

• "According to the Encyclopaedia of Wales, "Welsh patriots view the Welsh Not(e) as an instrument of cultural genocide", but "it was welcomed by some parents as a way of ensuring that their children made daily use of English" even attributed, the "according to...but actually" construction feels a tad like it's "debunking" the cultural genocide claim. Zzz plant (talk) 13:15, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
  • I think it fits in the paragraph which it is part of now. Tell me if you are OK with it.--Llewee (talk) 10:36, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

    I think the current framing is better, but I would tweak it a bit more for maximum neutrality. Maybe separate the thoughts, something like "'The Encyclopaedia of Wales notes that the Welsh Not(e) is viewed by Welsh patriots as an "instrument of cultural genocide." The publication also notes that the practice was welcomed by some Welsh parents who prioritized their children's proficiency in English."? Open to other constructions too, but I would try to avoid a "but" or "although" type setup Zzz plant (talk) 13:31, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

  rewritten along those lines and moved to the historians sections--Llewee (talk) 23:39, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

Cultural interaction

• no comments here, looks good Zzz plant (talk) 13:15, 12 February 2026 (UTC)

Verifiable with no original research?

• yes, see below:

Source spot check

in-line ref #s as of this revision

• [3]: "Some of these schools punished children caught speaking Welsh with the Welsh Not." Y Zzz plant (talk) 13:51, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
• [17]: "The Welsh Not was not a government policy." Y Zzz plant (talk) 13:51, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
• [19]: "The Welsh Not was a practice introduced by individual teachers mostly on their own initiative." Y Zzz plant (talk) 13:51, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
• [38]: "Davies says that as the (Tudor) government were to promote Welsh for worship, they had more sympathy for Welsh, than for Irish in Ireland, French in Calais, and than the government of Scotland had for Gaelic of the Highlands. The Tudors themselves were of partly Welsh origin." Y Zzz plant (talk) 13:51, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
• [90]: "David T. C. Davies, a Welsh Conservative politician, argued in 2012 that the Welsh Not was "largely a myth used to stir up anti-English prejudice"..." Y Zzz plant (talk) 13:51, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
• [96]: "In 2024, the 1923 Welsh Women's Peace message was translated into the Okinawan language from the perspective of the similarities between the Okinawan dialect cards and the Welsh Not." Y Zzz plant (talk) 13:51, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
• [98]: "Japanese musicians also created a short film, inspired by the similarities between the history of Okinawan dialect tags and the Welsh Not." Y Zzz plant (talk) 13:51, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

Reference formatting

• I think [12] and [35] are duplicates and can be consolidated Zzz plant (talk) 13:51, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
• optional, non-GACR suggestion: for the news sources, recommend wikilinking to the publication rather than providing the url so reader can easily check out the source info for themselves. e.g. rather than nation.cymru -> Nation.Cymru and rather than www.okinawatimes.co.jp -> Okinawa Times. Zzz plant (talk) 13:51, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

• done--Llewee (talk) 23:48, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

• optional, non-GACR suggestion: add archive links for web-based sources Zzz plant (talk) 13:51, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

Reliability

• this looks to be a very richly researched article. it does lean on Johnes 2024 significantly - but as this is described as "the first academic study of the Welsh Not" I think this is understandable and justified. the book itself appears quite reliable. Zzz plant (talk) 13:51, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

Original research

• no signs of this - scholarly opinions are carefully attributed and presented in appropriate context. Zzz plant (talk) 13:51, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

Copyright

• EW 23.7% - based on dates, this looks like a reverse copy of Wikipedia rather than the other way around Zzz plant (talk) 13:51, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
• did not see any CLOP in sources I spot-checked Zzz plant (talk) 13:51, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

Neutral?

• I would like for the Reactions and impact section to provide a bit more analytical depth as to the extent that this occupies a place in Welsh collective memory. i.e., I think it needs a bit more discussion of what that really means practically. see stability section below, where there was different opinions on whether or not to include an editorial by Gwynfor Evans. while I completely agree that the source should not be used to say anything definitive about the note's history - he's not a historian and doesn't seem to be asserting otherwise in the opinion piece - I think there is an opportunity to use it (or sources like it) while generally discussing the collective memory aspect. particularly as it relates to those who take a more Welsh nationalist approach Zzz plant (talk) 13:15, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
• to clarify a bit more, I do understand (and think you've demonstrated quite well with reliable sources) how the reality of the Not was more complicated than the popular messaging makes it out to be, but the sheer volume of discourse from this lens warrants a bit more development in my view. Zzz plant (talk) 13:15, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
  • I have rewritten the legacy section to add more detail of how its been seen in Welsh culture.--Llewee (talk) 10:34, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

    Thank you! The expansion of the legacy section definitely provides the analytical depth I was looking for. It now clearly illustrates with concrete examples how the Not evolved into such a potent symbol in Welsh collective memory. This is a significant improvement for both scope and neutrality. Very well done. Zzz plant (talk) 13:22, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

Stable?

• yes. constructive edit history. one dispute last summer, but it doesn't seem to have lingered. no ongoing edit wars. Zzz plant (talk) 16:12, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

Illustrated?

• yes. see below:

File:Welsh Not on display.jpg - relevant and PD. I agree with the cleanup note on commons - it's pretty tiny - but I don't think it's of sufficiently poor quality that it should be excluded, as an actual physical note being illustrated is of high importance to the reader Y Zzz plant (talk) 16:12, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

I've changed the image to one from the gallery in Johnes book.--Llewee (talk) 16:49, 13 February 2026 (UTC)

That's a great replacement! File:Welsh Not (Bangor).png - relevant and CC BY-SA 4.0 Y Zzz plant (talk) 19:20, 13 February 2026 (UTC)

File:Old schoolroom, Pen-ffynnon - geograph.org.uk - 942366.jpg - relevant and CC BY-SA 2.0 Y Zzz plant (talk) 16:12, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

File:"Y Welsh Note". Trysorfa y Plant.png relevant and PD Y Zzz plant (talk) 16:12, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.