Talk:Verquere

This article is about Verquere, not Swedish Tables

@Edward Werner: This article concerns the historical European game Verquere, not its 19th‑century descendant Swedish Tables. You have introduced concepts and terminology that were never part of the European game, such as “nice game” and “forced John”. Where are the French terms “simple couronne”, “double couronne”, and “escalier” documented? I have never encountered them

You have also added a scoring system that was created by the Swedish Tables association at the Vasa Museum in the 1990s and has no historical connection to how a game of Verquere was evaluated.

I therefore suggest restoring the original Verquere article and creating a separate Wikipedia page for Swedish Tables. Karniffel (talk) 15:54, 22 June 2026 (UTC)

Given that bräde is the only modern descendant of verquere still being played today (with a living community, a few computer versions, and a Facebook group) and might be called modern verquere the same way backgammon with the doubling cube is considered just as "backgammon" as the rules of toutes-tables laid out in the Charpentier of 1684 (which did not have the doubling cube), my first instinct was to give the rules of bräde, with a list of changes from the original sources (the German books, Fiske's book, as well as Philippe Lalanne) in the "History and Culture" section.

Lalanne (https://salondesjeux.fr/revertier.htm), a professional historian of games, gives the same structure, with equal weight given to the historical rules and the modern ones. He also uses the terms "simple couronne", "double couronne", "ermite", and "escalier".

My first instinct is that it is one and the same game with rules changes over the centuries (i.e. the German sources in the 1700s allow a win by tower and score it double, the French rules don't, and the Swedish rules allow the tower and also the single/double crown and staircase).

I have not yet finished my edits. I will merge your article, as well as Lalanne's, into mine in the due course of time. Please refrain from editing it yourself in the meantime, though you're welcome to comment on the talk page. Edward Werner (talk) 17:08, 22 June 2026 (UTC)

Verquere is different from Swedish Tables, and this article is about the historical European game Verquere. For example, the concept of Juncker doesn't exist in Swedish Tables. The only "vackert spel" that was used in Verquere was tower ("uppspel"). "Kronspel" and "trappspel" were never used in the European game, neither was "sprängjan". Lalanne has translated the Swedish terms to French; the terms he chose have never been used in the historical game revertier/Verquere. "Förkeren" and "svenskt brädspel" are different articles in the Swedish Wikipedia. Please create a Swedish Tables article on the English Wikipedia, transfer your text about Swedish Tables to that article, and restore the previous article on Verquere. If you make a major change of an article like this, it would ne nice if you first made suggestions on the Talk page and tried to reach a consensus.Karniffel (talk) 18:39, 22 June 2026 (UTC)

If you want to split the article for consistency, I would not particularly be against that. Particularly if the Swedish WP article is also split.

I believe Junker is in the German rules but I'm not absolutely sure (I'll have to read them again). I have added a differences section in the meantime, though I'm still thinking about splitting the article as you suggest. Edward Werner (talk) 19:02, 22 June 2026 (UTC)

@Edward Werner I have created a new article on Swedish Tables and transferred the content of the most recent revision of Verquere to that article. I have connected the article on Swedish Tables with Bräde (spel) in the Swedish Wikipedia. I have restored the version of Verquere from 21 June 2024, and I have connected the article on Verquere with the article on förkeren in the Swedish Wikipedia. You will probably need to make some adjustments of the text in Swedish Tables and substitute "Swedish Tables" for "Verquere" on several places. Karniffel (talk) 17:09, 24 June 2026 (UTC)

@Edward Werner I would like to add that there is an English description of Swedish Tables at https://bkgm.com/variants/SwedishTables.html. For the sake of consistency, it would be preferable to use the same terminology. Karniffel (talk) 18:53, 22 June 2026 (UTC)