Talk:Public Universal Friend

Semi Protected Edit Request on 2 February 2025

The following should be edited to reflect the fact that Sarah Friend, not Sarah Richards, is the identity of the individual as they went about living their life in relation to the Public Universal Friend. As such, the references below should be changed from Richards -> Sarah. When your unhappy marriage ends, and historians, which is what we are attempting to be here, continue to use your dead husband's last name to refer to you, it's a sort of historical microaggression of misogynistic "man-washing" of your accomplishments.

"Around 1785, the Friend met Sarah and Abraham Richards. The Richards' unhappy marriage ended in 1786, when Abraham died on a visit to the Friend. Sarah, together with her infant daughter, took up residence with the Friend, adopted a similarly androgynous hairstyle, dress, and mannerisms (as did a few other close female friends), and came to be called Sarah Friend."

"The Friend entrusted Richards Sarah with holding the society's property in trust, and sent her to preach in one part of the country when the Friend was in another. Richards Sarah had a large part in planning and building the house in which she and the preacher lived in the town of Jerusalem, and when she died in 1793, she left her child to the Friend's care."

This also helps with clarity, as Abraham Richards did exist, but he was not the one the Friend relied upon to do the things described in the preceding paragraph. Leaving it simply as "Richards" allows for possible misunderstanding by those who may cite this article in part rather than in full. Also, we want to use Sarah rather than Richards or Sarah Friend as we do not have the exact dates on when she "came to be called Sarah Friend" without further research, and again out of respect for the person who ultimately became Sarah Friend, she appears to have gone by Sarah the entire time. Cyrusmagnusx (talk) 04:37, 27 February 2025 (UTC)

 Done and I agree-thank you for this! Especially because she came to be called 'Sarah Friend,' using 'Richards' creates a lot of potential for confusion. It's not necessarily the norm across the website to use first names alone, but there's also the principle to Wikipedia:Ignore all rules when they prevent a better encyclopedia. ~Malvoliox (talk | contribs) 02:26, 20 April 2026 (UTC)

"Jemima" typo?

In the Early Life section there appears to be a significant typo that needs immediate correction. ~2025-35528-60 (talk) 17:51, 22 November 2025 (UTC)

or perhaps the typo is the name Jeremiah? or the explanation for the two different references is not given for context? ~2025-35528-60 (talk) 17:59, 22 November 2025 (UTC)

Where are you seeing a typo? The child was named Jemima, the child's father was named Jeremiah. Belbury (talk) 18:03, 22 November 2025 (UTC)

Pronouns

Using "the Friend" instead of pronouns makes for clunky wording (which is why pronouns exist!) What if we replace that with the singular they, which anyway can be used to describe someone whose pronouns are unknown, irrelevant, or nonexistent? VidanaliK (talk to me) (contributions) 19:25, 19 April 2026 (UTC)

I would disagree - while clunky, "the Friend" was preferred by the article's subject. Per MOS:GENDERID, it's best to use terms that reflect "the person's most recent expressed self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources." Even if the Friend were to use they/them pronouns now, we couldn't predict it. It seems pretty clear in the sourcing here that there was an express self-identified preference for no pronouns at the time; I'd say an active preference for no pronouns is a bit different from unknown pronoun usage/use of neutral pronouns. ~Malvoliox (talk | contribs) 02:21, 20 April 2026 (UTC)

First American to start a religious community?

In the following, I think "making the Friend the first American to found a religious community," is an issue. The source claims the Friend was the first 'native-born' American to start a religion but presumably the author means first European descended American to start a religion. At best, I don't think this contributes anything of value to the article and at worst it (quite egregiously) erases all native American religious communities.

"The Friend did not bring a Bible to worship meetings, which were initially held outdoors or in borrowed meeting houses, but preached long sections of the scriptures from memory. The meetings attracted large audiences, including some who formed a congregation of "Universal Friends", making the Friend the first American to found a religious community. These followers included roughly equal numbers of women and men who were predominantly under 40." ~2026-18283-56 (talk) 23:47, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

@~2026-18283-56: There seems to be a fairly easy solution to all this, which I've taken: clarifying that the Public Universal Friend was the first native-born American citizen to do all this. Best, ~ Pbritti (talk) 01:00, 30 April 2026 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 May 2026

Under "Becoming the Public Universal Friend," in the sixth sentence, the word "Public" was misspelt as "Publick." Please change "Publick," to "Public." Skeletal-kath (talk) 04:57, 28 May 2026 (UTC)

 Not done: the article states that the original spelling of the Friend's name used "Publick," so I assume that spelling was intentional in this instance. In solidarity, DiscoursesonLivvy (talk · contribs) 05:08, 28 May 2026 (UTC)

Use of deadname

Doesn't using their birthname, Jemima Wilkinson at the start of the article breach the deadname rules? They were not notable under the name. I understand that it's a bit different but nonetheless I think it shouldn't be included. Seod13ie (talk) 01:35, 13 July 2026 (UTC)

MOS:DEADNAME is the relevant guideline. I don't know how much consideration has been given to applying it to historical biographies, but it's framed as only applying to living subjects, with a person's pre-notability name being a WP:BLP privacy issue for living people. Belbury (talk) 08:15, 13 July 2026 (UTC)

MOS:Deadname is applied in the article for SOPHIE, and Marsha P. Johnson, both dead transgender people. Since they were not notable under their deadname, it is not included in the article, despite their dead name bring publically available.. MOS:Deadname is NOT just for alive individuals, and if any famous celebrity who is notable under their chosen name only dies, their birthname will not be included in their article. Seod13ie (talk) 12:53, 13 July 2026 (UTC)

This is missing the point of DEADNAME. Public Universal Friend is notable as a religious figure who made a specific claim of being born one person, dying, and being reborn as another person. As best we can tell from contemporaneous sources on the matter, the Friend considered their identity a religious one rather than a gendered one. It's an unusual circumstance: DEADNAME doesn't apply, modern reliable sources routinely repeat the birth name, but we should refer to the subject following their "rebirth" as Public Universal Friend. I think it roughly approximates the naming conventions we use for popes. Best, ~ Pbritti (talk) 14:01, 13 July 2026 (UTC)

(edit conflict) MOS:DEADNAME explicitly applies only to living people (Unless a living transgender or non-binary person was notable under a former name, the former name should not appear in any page ... even if reliable sourcing exists [my emphasis]). An RfC on whether it should be extended to cover dead subjects in 2024 found no consensus to change that. The fact that Sophie's article does not give her birthname does not mean that MOS:DEADNAME applies to that article. On the other hand, contrary to your claim Marsha P. Johnson does give Johnson's birthname!

Maybe we should consider removing the Friend's birth name anyway (I tend to think not; to my mind the argument for omitting the birth name of a relatively recent trans person like Sophie is much more compelling than for a more remote historical figure like the Friend) but if we decide to do so it's not because MOS:DEADNAME mandates it. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 14:20, 13 July 2026 (UTC)

I agree that it's a different circumstance in Public Universal Friend's case and as Pbritti said it is a religious change rather than a gendered change, but Martha P.Johnson's birthname is not listed at the top of the article and only in the 'Early Life' section, not at the start (see Elliot Page or Caitlyn Jenner). In these articles, Elliot and Caitlyn's deadnames are listed at the start as they were notable under said name. Seod13ie (talk) 14:37, 13 July 2026 (UTC)

@Seod13ie: Hmmm, you're right that there does seem to be a tad bit of incongruity here, but I think it's because this is a distinct context. DEADNAME pertains most proximately to BLPs on living people or those who existed in a context similar to the modern conceptions of gender identity (I think the policy is meant to be intentionally squishy on scope to prevent blind spots). Since the Public Universal Friend claimed to be someone other than the person once known as Jemima Wilkinson, I believe we should retain mention of their birth name. While a compelling claim, Wikipedia typically defers to the skeptical language used in reliable sources on religion. This can be frustrating for religious people (like myself!), but it often means we have to treat claims such as a spiritual rebirth as simply claims. We should adhere to the Friend's declared androgyny and name (recent RSs and even some contemporary sources do so, too). However, unlike in cases where a modern transgender or gender non-conforming person adopts a new name, refraining from discussing the Friend's previous identity as Wilkinson might implicitly affirm their supernatural claims. It's a tough balancing act. Maybe you could propose a rephrasing of a couple sentences you think might need tweaking? Also, I noticed your previous edit on Surf Curse. They're a favorite band of mine! Best, ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:55, 13 July 2026 (UTC)

I think it would be better if just the initial sentence's reference to their birthname was removed, a bit like Martha P. Johnston's article. The name jemima is used in the early life section, which I don't object to.

I propose this rephrasing:

The Public Universal Friend(November 29, 1752 – July 1, 1819), also known by the Haudenosauneename Shinnewawna gis tau ge,was an American preacher born in Cumberland, Rhode Island, to Quaker parents.

to the opening paragraph.

And yes, i do like surf curse. Seod13ie (talk) 16:18, 13 July 2026 (UTC)

I would like to edit the 'See Also' section

I would like to add a link to the page of Rebecca Cox Jackson, who lived during an overlapping time and also had a dramatic religious conversion and started her own spin-off of a niche religious organization. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebecca_Cox_Jackson Browncoat101 (talk) 15:12, 14 July 2026 (UTC)