Talk:Palmchat

Palmchat territory

expand territory to include US Virgin Islands. ~2026-23138-55 (talk) 11:03, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

• Based on? Sabine's Sunbird talk 19:29, 16 April 2026 (UTC)

Nestling period

@Sabine's Sunbird: the cited 32 days hatching to fledging seems extraordinarily long for a medium-small passerine (more than twice the length of e.g. similarly-sized thrushes, or its nearest relatives like Hypocolius and Waxwings). I checked in HBW, and in the main text (p.329) it is somewhat ambiguous ("Incubation lasts for about 15 days, and the nestlings fledge at approximately 32 days") which could easily be read as 32 days from laying rather than from hatching, but the species text (p.331) does look clearer on it being 32 days as chicks. If from laying, that's broadly similar to other same-sized passerines. If from hatching, it is so strange that I'd have expected HBW to make more comment about its very slow nestling development, but it doesn't. I think this is so odd, that it needs double-checking from other sources, in case HBW has an error here. Can you check? I don't have anything on Palmchat other than HBW. - MPF (talk) 13:49, 19 April 2026 (UTC)

• HBW has two statements, namely "Incubation lasts for about 15 days, and the nestlings fledge at approximately 32 days" which might be read as 32 days total, but the second one is ",nestling period c.32 days" which is less ambiguous. It should be noted that the text also discusses how chicks are fed fruit and not insects, which makes them poor hosts for brood parasitism but the less protein rich diety may explain a longer nestling period? At any rate this article is going to take me a while as unpicking the history of taxanomic placement is proving harder for the 19th century, so I'll have time to locate other sources, and there have been a few papers published since then on its nests and social behaviour. Sabine's Sunbird talk 18:50, 19 April 2026 (UTC)

  @Sabine's Sunbird yes, I saw that; but the same (frugivorous diet) applies to Hypocolius too, and that has a typical 13-14 days from hatching to fledging. Shiny Cowbird has 12-14 days hatching to fledging, so would be totally out of sync with a 32 day fledging period. I'm pretty sure HBW has an error there, but it needs proof before we can change it.

  Just found this paper: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/ibi.70051 I can't see anything about fledging period, but it might have some other useful details in - MPF (talk) 21:36, 19 April 2026 (UTC)

• Yeah there have been a few papers recently, given the species has a fairly unusual social system and is relatively easy to study (common, nests in cities, conspicuous) I imagine it is attracting some attention as a study species. I think perhaps a thesis from 1991 Social Organization and Nest Characteristics of the Palm Chat (Dulus dominicus) of Hispaniola may have some of the answers. I can't find it online, but it's been cited by the three recent papers so I can try with one of the authors if I come up dry elsewhere.
• Given I've gotten your attention - any clues who was the first to link the waxwings and this species? The sources all say 19th century, and while I've found some later 19th century treatments with them together, I'm drawing a blank at the first to do so. Sabine's Sunbird talk 00:47, 20 April 2026 (UTC)

  Thanks! I'll see what I can dig out 👍 - MPF (talk) 10:23, 20 April 2026 (UTC)

  @Sabine's Sunbird looks like it is Hugh Edwin Strickland, in 'On the type of the genus Dulus, Vieill.', Contributions to Ornithology 4: 103–104 (1851), "We require farther information as to the structure and habits of Dulus before we can pronounce upon its true place in the system. Swainson placed it in the sub-family Oriolinæ, a position wholly untenable, as Oriolinæ is an old-world group and Dulus a tropical American one. It more probably belongs to the Ampelidæ or Chatterers, with which it agrees in the general form of the beak, wings, and feet." [Ampelidae is a synonym of Bombycillidae] - MPF (talk) 11:27, 20 April 2026 (UTC)

• Thanks! Sabine's Sunbird talk 19:18, 20 April 2026 (UTC)

Annoyingly the thesis has not been digitised. I've flicked a message to some birding friends of mine based in NYC, they may have friends in teh area that can take a look. Sabine's Sunbird talk 19:14, 21 April 2026 (UTC)

• Update - I have mader contact with someone that lives in Albany who will have a look for us. But I have established the Cornell have cited that particular fact to a journal article that has nothing to do with it, so I've also pinged them to see if anything comes of it. It wouldn't be the first fact about the species that later research has debunked. Sabine's Sunbird talk 02:10, 12 May 2026 (UTC)

Photos

Noticed that Commons had very few Palmchat pics; I've added about 20 more from iNaturalist - MPF (talk) 00:44, 20 April 2026 (UTC)

• Awesome, some unambiguous nest shots to add as I expand some more. Sabine's Sunbird talk 00:49, 20 April 2026 (UTC)